Kerry's Remarks on Hybrid Car Makers

[WLKjr]

I would just like to point out my disgust with his remarks in Ohio yesterday. My mother works for Honda of America in OH and came from a union job, which payed horribly and had crappy benefits and she didn't get to work have the year. She went from having nothing to being treated good, getting great pay (23.40/hr to be exact) and really great benefits. I also have a friend who works for them to who just got a job with them starting at 10+ an hour and all the OT he wants. He was bragging to me just the other day about how he brought home a $1000 dollar check. I only make $300 in two weeks. They have also done a lot for area schools (even helping building new schools in the area). From what I have seen, Honda doesn't need a union. Kerry must not have done his homework on what they have done for these parts of Ohio(NW, WC, and Central) and if he didn't make the remarks that he did, he WOULD HAVE HAD this area all wrapped up, there are a lot of Kerry supporters that work at Honda, and I mean A LOT! most of them dispise Bush. well enough of my rant. Here is what he said:

"I don't want Toyota and Honda to be the seller of these cars. I want the cars made in Michigan," Kerry said.


WTF WAS HE THINKING, The man that owns Honda even lives here in Ohio!

[IronLionZion]

1. it was probably an honest mistake

most Americans don't realize that the Hondas and Toyotas sold here are made here (USA not Michigan). Whenever people talk to me about my "foreign" Toyota Camry, I point out the fact that it was made in Georgetown Kentucky.

Oh well. Ford just entered the hybrid market by licensing Toyota technology.

[WLKjr]

5. Honda is Helping with GM Engines

To get better fuel economy. I even think they are helping them develope thier Hybrid.

[Touchdown]

39. Same with me.

My Mazda was made in Flat Rock Michigan, and those workers are union. Great car, almost 10 years old and still runing strong.

[RoyGBiv]

90. Honda hybrids ....

According to company spokesmen, Honda hybrids are made exclusively in Japan because of the small market.

[cheezus]

2. OTHER: Oops. Retract and get over it

it's a minor mistake

[Killarney]

3. Exactly.

Waaaah.

Minor mistake. Get over it.

[WLKjr]

6. It;'s a minor mistake......

probably true. but words can and will cost him ohio. This just hit too close to home for me. He just came across like Bob Taft has in the past.

[Killarney]

7. I think you have to take intent into account

what he was saying is that he wants the jobs here in the US. I think if he had known about Honda and Ohio, obviously he wouldn't have said it. I understand why you would be miffed about it, but you have to take his intent into consideration. KWIM?

:toast:

[WLKjr]

9. I can see that KWIM part,

but he seemed VERY UNIFORMED about Honda and Toyota. It's like a previous poster commented, A LOT of people don't realize that Honda and Toyota's are made in the Good Ol' U.S. of A. He really should have worded his speech differently.

[Killarney]

11. I'm surprised no one on his team knew, either.

I mean, I'm sure he has a few people read/work on his speeches. I'm surprised that not ONE of them caught this.

It is a gaffe, but hopefully it is considered a small one and people can quickly forgive him for it. Much bigger fish to fry this year. :)

[treepig]

63. well, being VERY UNIFORMED may help him with the military vote

at least

am i nit-picking needlessly? probably.

perhaps so are you . . .

[WLKjr]

67. Maybe I am nit-picking

I tend to be critical sometimes, sometimes a little two much. I Just like having discussions no matter how heated they are.

[IronLionZion]

4. Do you think Bush cares about workers?

let it go

[Nlighten1]

8. Kerry is playing up to the "aww shucks" Bush voters.

You know the ones...they have shift kits on their cars, pull their bass boats around with them and call themselves "Billy Bob"

[MallRat]

10. He really said that?

Who doesn't know that many Japanese cars are actually built in the USA?

Maybe it's out of context? I don't get it.

:shrug:

-MR

[WLKjr]

12. Yeah he really said it

Down in Columbus Yesterday. My Mom was telling me that a lot of Kerry supporters at Honda are very upset and are wondering about him and his agenda now. Like I said earlier, I live here in OH and have all my life, and when you say something you mean it, or don't say it at all. People remember what you say for years to come. Just look at Bob Taft, his support went into the Toilet here in OH when he made similar comments about Honda's not being American Made, and he was less than 50 miles from the Plant in Marysville!

[JayS]

14. I am sure that the right wing will make it known that your average...

...fourth grader is well aware that many Japanese cars are actually built in the USA.

[WLKjr]

16. Yeah, they were

pointing things like that out not long after his speech on many OH GOP sites and State Office links.

[guajira]

13. You Should email Kerry's Campaign and Let Them Know

IMO Kerry's "handlers" are doing a miserable job. I met one recently and he practically ignored a room full of complaints about Kerry's campaign, telling us things would get better! AND even worse, I asked him if he ever logged onto democraticunderground.com - and he had never heard of it!!!

IMO again, Kerry needs a good, well-informed, passionate speech writer.

[tom_paine]

15. Agreed. Tell the Kerry Campaign -- Ohio branch!

And I'm afraid I agree.

But maybe things will get better.

God, it makes me wish for Clark and Dean...

[WLKjr]

18. I am a Dean head myself

and I can't wait for the day when he makes his return! I told my mother to contact them (the Kerry Campaign-OHIO) which I did in the first place and told her to get a couple of signatures and give them a good bitching out. ( she is saying how she wants ol' Bill back)

[prolesunited]

29. FYI

Dean's not an option in this election. :-)

[Killarney]

17. Maybe someone here can let him know

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johnkerryforohio/

[Classical_Liberal]

19. What a smelly post? You don't think they need a union huh?

?

[WLKjr]

23. Let me clear this up....

I have seen Union Jobs that are good and Union Jobs that suck and treat their workers bad, real bad. I have also seen non-Union jobs that suck really bad and treat their employees unfairly and non-Union jobs that treat their employees fairly and pay them pretty good. I am for unions in some jobs, against them in others. If a company is being fair and treating you the way a worker should be treated, then no, what would a union do for you? on the other hand if a company was treating you unfairly and not treating you good, then hell yes, UNIONIZE! Can you kind of seeing where I am coming from? I am not anti-Union, I just look at things in perspective.

[Classical_Liberal]

28. All corporations claim they treat employees good including

the shitty ones like Walmart. The lack of an effective unionizing movement against them is cerainly no indication that they are any good. I believe in pre-emptive unionizing yes.

[WLKjr]

64. Well they did have one union hall down the road

and they would protest on Honda property, out on the highway, etc, etc. But you know what, only a few signed cards. One problem, no one else did because most of them came from crappy union jobs (not IMPLYING ALL OF THEM ARE CRAPPY) and do not want one again, ecspecially when the current employer is giving them way better benefits than a union could do.(not saying that the possiblity they could is not concievable). I have seen people pay high union dues and not get representation out of it, yet see their benifits go down the tubes while the union just sits there and does nothing. Yes I have seen this in my own life.

[Classical_Liberal]

65. That is just more anecdotes

that can't be verified one way or another. One things for sure. The inability to organize a union at a particular place or to get sympathy for it among workers doesn't mean the company treats workers well. Many workers have been brainwashed by management to think unions won't give them a better deal and many are scared of outsourcing. BTW, I understand Honda calles their employees "associates" LOL.

[WLKjr]

68. I understand

that it doenst mean they do treat them well if they can't get a union and yes I have seen first hand management talking unions down. and what is the problem with calling employee's associates???

[Classical_Liberal]

Wallyworld calls their employees associates.

. They give them a little bit of the profits then pretend it is a substitute for a Union. In my experience this is a major union busting tactic.

[WLKjr]

72. What are you trying to say?

that just becuase you call your employees associates that makes the company that does so a union buster?

[Classical_Liberal]

83. associate emploiyees are granted associates as alternative

to unions. That is just a fact.

[Radical Activist]

24. I guess some people like being at the mercy of the company?

Always nice when workers help foreign corporations get their way.

[Radical Activist]

20. American companies should be making hybrid cars too

It sounds like that was his point. That foreign companies shouldn't be the only ones with hybrid cards. It would be good for that to change.

And any workplace can benefit from a Union. I'm waiting for Saturn to come out with a hybrid so I can buy an American car made by union workers.

[WLKjr]

26. So how is Honda not American

when the cars are made in Ohio????


Saturn is a GM company based in TN. Honda(yes originally a japanese company) has worldwide operations. But most of the Auto's they make are American made. Just go to the links here.

http://www.hondaohio.com/info/history/index.asp

http://www.hondacorporate.com/america/

[Classical_Liberal]

33. Hybrid cars aren't american made

including those made by Honda.

[WLKjr]

41. Excuse me, I should have mentioned that

Hybrids aren't made here...yet. Last I heard they were working on putting lines in for the hybrid. All I am saying is that the way the speech was worded he made Toyota and Honda seem "Un-American", when in all actuality pretty much all of thier cars (with exception for a few) are made here in the US and employ large sections of the state in (OH and KY). His handlers are doing a piss poor job with Kerry, and I think they are doing it on purpose.

[Classical_Liberal]

45. He implied no such thing

He did imply he wants Hybrids American made, and Honda isn't doing it. Any Honda employee that would get pissy over the desire to see such cars American made is probably not a Kerry voter anyway.

[trogdor]

21. How about an alternative.

Kerry should explain this remark, which I am 100% sure was supposed to mean, "it's a damn shame Honda and Toyota have to take the lead in hybrid technology, when it's Detroit that should be championing things like energy efficiency through innovation instead of competing to see who can make the biggest, most wasteful behemoth and sell it as something an environmentalist might drive."

[WLKjr]

27. That would have been a much better way to go about it

n/t

[dpbrown]

22. Why shouldn't domestic carmakers make hybrids?

Kerry's comments could just as easily be construed to mean Toyota and Honda "only" and there's no context provided that says that he was implying that Toyota and Honda should stop making hybrids.

This is a bogus complaint against Kerry.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

DNC National Delegate for Dennis Kucinich

[WLKjr]

30. How is it bogus when that is actually what he said?

your response seemed to put spin on what he said. do a google search and get the speech he made in Colubus OH.

[Classical_Liberal]

32. It is a bogus interpretation of what he said

That's why. So what if he wants America to make hybrid cars. Interpreting that as insult to Honda workers in the US is rediculous. BTW, Honda USA doesn't make hybrids.

[WLKjr]

37. Your right about the hybrids not bieng made here by Honda

I will agree with you on that. They aren't yet at least, but will be within the next couple of years. Last I heard they were working on putting the lines in to make them here. He just should have worded that speech a little better than he did, that is my point because honda workers are taking it as an insult.

[Classical_Liberal]

38. I wouldn't take it as an insult

It's pretty obvious he was advocating American built hybrids.

[TexasBushwhacker]

53. Ford will have a Hybrid Escape out in the fall

The first hybrids - the Toyota Prius and the Honda Insight are tiny and America has NEVER been good at designing econoboxes. Cars the size of the Prius and the Insight would be getting pretty great gas mileage anyway. Now they have the Honda Civic Hybrid that gets 47/48 MPG. A regular Civic gets 29/38 (33.5 ave.), so the hybrid version gets 40% better gas mileage. Not bad, but the hybrid has 85 HP vs. 115 for the all gas model. The Insight has only 66 HP and the Prius has 76.

The Ford Escape small/medium SUV gets 155 HP and about 40 MPG. This is a dead on equivalent of their 2.3L gas engine, which gets 153 HP and about 20 MPG. While it's not a Prius or an Insight getting over 60 MPG, it's a lot more car.

Also, American car makers have several models (particularly big trucks and SUV's) that can run on E85 (Ethanol 85%, Gasoline 15%) fuel. Unfortunately, E85 isn't available everywhere yet, and while widespread use to cut our dependance on foreign oil, combustion is combustion and E85 pollutes too. The route they decided to take is to design FFV's (Flexible Fuel Vehicles) starting with the gas guzzlers and working down. Well, that makes sense to me. I mean, do we really need a Ford Focus that runs on E85? How much of an impact would that really have on our oil usage. More on E85 if you're interested here: http://www.e85fuel.com/

American car makers are also actively working on fuel cell technology and hydrogen power. Estimates are that we could have hydrogen powered vehicles on the market as soon as 2010. That's only 5 years away, and maybe with a little encouragement from Congress (under Kerry's leadership) we could bump that up to 2008 or so. Some cool PBS videos are here: http://www.pbs.org/saf/1403/video/watchonline.htm

It sounds like Kerry needs to be better informed on what's really out there and where it's being manufactured. He needs me to work for him!

[trogdor]

59. The gas motors are smaller BECAUSE of the electric ones.

The electric motors make up the difference in HP. The 2004 Prius was Motor Trend's Car of the Year because it was determined to be a "penalty-free" hybrid. You can spin the tires AND get 50-60 MPG.

You list only the gas engine's HP for the Toyota and Honda hybrids, but the combined rating for the Ford Escape. My question to you is, why are you lying through your teeth about HP ratings of hybrid vehicles? Have you ever driven one? Seems Kerry needs your "advice" like a hole in the head.

[TexasBushwhacker]

85. Excuse me?

You are correct that some of my figures were wrong. That doesn't make me A LIAR! The figures came from manufactures websites and general automobile sites like Edmunds.

Here are the comparable figures for all models from the manufactures website:

Toyota Prius - Hybrid system net power - 110 HP
Toyota Matrix - Gasoline only - 130 HP

Honda Insight - Hybrid system net power - 73 HP

Honda Civic Hybrid - Hybrid system net power - 98 HP
Honda Civic Standard - Gasoline only - 127 HP

Ford Escape Hybrid - Hybrid System Net Power - 155 HP
Ford Escape Standard - Gasoline Only - 153 HP

I didn't say that the Prius, Insight or Hybrid Civic are bad cars, just that you have to compare apples to apples as much as possible. Not everyone can drive a car as small as a Prius or an Insight. The Matrix is the closest Toyota has to the size and configuration of a Prius, so I just put it up for comparison and it does have an additional 20 HP. The Insight doesn't really have a comparable gas powered version. The Civic Hybrid is underpowered compared to its gasoline only version, whereas the Escape isn't. The Insight really doesn't have a comparable gasoline only version. Honda doesn't make any other 2 seaters and the Civic Si has a 160 HP engine.

I maintain that Kerry needs to get up to speed on things like new technology in vehicles and where they're being built. Saying that he should hire me was a JOKE, but since you were so quick to say I was "lying through my teeth" my guess is you don't have much of a sense of humor.

[TreasonousBastard]

89. Coupla small points...

Ford's Escape is a Mazda Tribute in Ford drag, so while Ford may be working on it, it's not exactly leading the pack on the technology. And, Toyota will be coming out with a hybrid Lexus SUV in a year or so. Watch that one make record sales.

Ethanol is interesting, but it doesn't have the energy density that gasoline has, so you've got to make more of it. It also has the problems of monoculture, the pollution endemic in farming, the energy needed to farm the corn and make the ethanol, and the waste products from making it. And, you still burn the stuff, so it doesn't reduce global warming or air pollution significantly. It's more of interest to farmers than environmentalists.

I'd rather see multi-fuel diesels tht can burn soy oil, if I had to make a choice.

Again, aside from fuel cells, hydrogen is a very low density fuel, so we would need some really new technology to use it in an internal combustion engine. we would also need some new technology to get the amount of hydrogen needed.

[Merlin]

91. Problem is Ford has been saying this very same thing for two years now.

I'll be surprised if the do not delay it again.

On the other hand, if they can market an Escape with the specs you described, imo it will be their best competitive move since the Model "T". It will sell through the roof.

[TreasonousBastard]

25. What's the context?

It sounds stupid, but I can't believe he's that dumb.

Was the rest of the speech pushing for the idea that US carmakers shouldn't cede hybrid technology to Japan? That would make sense.

btw, I'd have to check, but I thought that although Toyota and Honda have plants here, the hybrids come from Japan.

About the union and Honda-- the UAW has been trying to get into Honda for years, but Honda keeps giving a pay and benefit package almost as good, maybe better in some cases, than the UAW can get for them, so it's a loss for the UAW, but not really for the employees.

[WLKjr]

31. Exactly

that is the point I was trying to make to a poster about me supposidly being anti-Union or something. I will post the speech here that Kerry made in just a few moments.

[Classical_Liberal]

35. Kerry's stance on unions is less than inspiring.

quite frankly.

[WLKjr]

36. Okay here is a link ( or two)

http://www.middletownjournal.com/news/newsfd/auto/feed/news/2004/04/23/1082696497.05522.5638.2498.html;COXnetJSessionID=AQqZyNvmBg0iiw1UBfO1IGWzeZHnEC47gkd1fzHFmFMH31OsMmH2!-1882346031?urac=n&urvf=10874006017490.5288854613620952

http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=10283&cat=Politics

I am having trouble getting a trascript right now and thought I saw it on his Ohio campaign page. My IE is being stupid right now and not wanting to open other windows. D*$# Popup adds!

[JayS]

34. I thought I read that we lease the hybrid technology from Japan. n/t

n/t

[trogdor]

61. You would be correct.

Instead of doing actual R&D, Ford is purchasing the technology from Toyota for it's Escape hybrid. Basically, it's a Prius in a larger, uglier box.

[TexasBushwhacker]

87. Yes, it is the same technology

as the Prius. From USA Today:

"Ford says it will modify about 20 of the 370 patents that Toyota holds for its gas/electric hybrid technology, used in the Prius car.

The patents Ford is buying involve software that controls, among other things, whether the gas engine or electric motor is used. In hybrid vehicles, power to the wheels shifts from the gas engine to the electric motor depending on demand to save fuel.

Ford becomes the second automaker to tap Toyota's hybrid technology. Nissan (NSANY) reached an agreement with Toyota last year to use all its patents. The Nissan hybrid could go on sale as early as 2006.

Neither Nissan nor Ford will buy parts from Toyota. They will get blueprints."

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-03-09-hybrid_x.htm

[muriel_volestrangler]

92. This appears to be the story

unless he's repeating the same remakrs he made 2 months ago. Not the date - April 22, not Tuesday.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-04-22-kerry--automakers_x.htm

"I would like American companies to be competitive globally and I would like American companies to be first and foremost in the marketplace with these innovations," Kerry said from Houston. "We can in fact grow more jobs and save families a heck of a lot of money on fuel bills."
...
Honda makes its hybrids in Japan because of the narrow market, spokesman Ron Lietzke said. It sold more than 20,000 hybrids in the United States last year, he said.

Kerry still was critical of Honda because its employees are non-union.

"I don't want Toyota and Honda to be the seller of these cars. I want the cars made in Michigan," Kerry said.

[Shakespeare]

40. Is everyone that DIM? Do you not "get" what he's saying?

Jesus Christ on a pogo stick!

He's saying that America needs to be leading the way on this kind of technology. His point is that it took FOREIGN MANUFACTURERS to jump into the market and make hybrids a desirable, sellable option. Although we certainly build (parts of) their cars here, our auto manufacturers have dug in their heels and resisted taking the forefront on finding alternatives to gas-only vehicles.

What the fuck on earth is wrong with that point? Do you guys honestly think he was insulting Honda & Toyota, and their US employees? Really? Seriously?

fergodsakes...it's just sad that such an obvious point could be so woefully misunderstood.

He has nothing to retract, and nothing to apologize for.

[sangh0]

43. It's flame bait

It took the poster quite a while to acknowledge that hybrids are NOT built in the US, which is what he implied in his OP.

Very dishonest.

[WLKjr]

57. I realize I had mispoke in my first post

I can't edit it out now. Sorry.

[sangh0]

69. You didn't mispeak. You distorted

.

[WLKjr]

74. I posted what the sentiment is around where I live

and this is how most feel about Honda. I posted a qoute from Kerry that is going to be controversial no matter how you look at it. Most people are going to be pissed off about it and some are going to see it for what it is. I realized I was going to get flamed bad for this post but I was just stating what he said and that qoute right now is ricocheing around ohio right now and people are getting mad over it. Personally I am not upset over it, my mother on the other had is and so are a lot of those she works with. It was the first thing on my mind this morning and my mom was telling me about it.

[sangh0]

77. You posted the sentiment of the entire state

abd that's dishonest. Also, you don't even know what most people in the area around where you live think, either. You're being very dishonest.

Only an idiot would think that some anonymous poster on the Internet speaks for anyone but himself.

[WLKjr]

46. I live here in OH and know how people react here

And frankly, like I have said, the way it came across was thought of as an insult to some who work at Honda.

I have read the speech, and I see that what he really wants is for FORD AND GM to hop on the bandwagon and get with the program and make some Hybrids that people can afford too. I see this. but on the other hand he should have worded that part of the speech like so:

"I do not want Toyota and Honda to be the only mfg.'s of hybrid cars for the U.S., I call on General Motors and Ford Motor Company to get with the program and start making hybrids that everyone can afford and make a new Technology Industry for America bringing hope, inovation, and progress back to the American way of life."

err something like that.

[Shakespeare]

47. Like I said....

I'm stunned that anybody could misconstrue what he said, and you obviously have.

I don't know if you're just deliberately posting flamebait, or if you truly have such limited ability to understand such plainly stated comments. Or perhaps you should just contact the Kerry campaign and offer your services as a speechwriter--I'm sure they'll jump right on the opportunity.

[sangh0]

51. He can't be having trouble understanding what Kerry meant

After all, if he's smart enough to "KNOW" what an entire state thinks, he can certainly figure out what Kerry was thinking.

[WLKjr]

71. I don't claim to know the entire state sangh0

and no I am not THAT smart (go ahead and flame & insult me some more), I just pay attention to what people think and say around where I live. Do you live in OH? if not how could you know what troubles happen here and what people go through here?

I and read the kerry speech, and I personally know what he meant, but there are quite a few that don't around here. I was simply posting what is being spun around the internet and the regular news and how it is going to make some feel.

[sangh0]

78. You don't speak for anyone but yourself

but you'll be dishonest, and speak for everyone in your area anyway.

I just pay attention to what people think and say around where I live.

How many people have you spoken to? How many people live "in the area around where you live"?

Do you live in OH? if not how could you know what troubles happen here and what people go through here?

How do you know? I do it the same as you. The only difference is, I'm honest about it.

was simply posting what is being spun around the internet and the regular news and how it is going to make some feel.

It's on the Internet and regular news? Really?

So why don't you post a link?

[WLKjr]

60. Thanks for the ......insult I think?

I read the speech and understand myself what he meant, I am just stating that it should have been worded differently that it was and what I am posting about is comming from newspapers and TV here in OH.

I have offered services to the Kerry campaign, they seem to be uninterested in me(not kerry himself, just thier OH office)

[sangh0]

79. Have you got any links?

what I am posting about is comming from newspapers and TV here in OH.

I think you are being dishonest in claiming that it's in newspapers

[sangh0]

80. I've got links

Here's a story that mentions the quote, but says NOTHIG about people in Ohio being angered by the remarks

http://www.middletownjournal.com/news/newsfd/auto/feed/news/2004/04/23/1082696497.05522.5638.2498.html;COXnetJSessionID=AQCxMl9r3UMCPRA16O6rZXfbJwZUjgIk4ZiW1cdyxwqyNkeX5eN4!1712880228?urac=n&urvf=10874067693690.0038031757874837924

[sangh0]

81. Nothing about it in Topox.com's Ohio news pages

http://www.topix.net/state/oh

[sangh0]

84. Nothing about it in the Ohio Globe

http://www.ohioglobe.com/

Search for Kerry. There's nothing about Ohioans being made at Kerry

[sangh0]

48. Yeah, I believe you

I always believe anyone who claims to "know" what an entire state think.

[WLKjr]

55. I never claimed to know the entire state

just around where I live. I have lived here all my life.

[sangh0]

70. "I live here in OH and know how people react here"

You said nothing about "around where I live" unless the entire state is what you mean by "around"

[WLKjr]

73. My bad

I should have said that. I mean around where I live. Can you forgive me for that?

[sangh0]

82. No, you're repeating your mistake

You should only speak for yourself. Claiming to know the minds of others only indicates that you do not have faith in your argument, and need a crowd to support you.

You also claim that it's being mentioned in Ohio's newspapers, but you haven't provided a link. I've provided links that show NO ONE in Ohio is talking about this but you.

[MAlibdem]

42. Unions are a good idea...

From what I have seen, Honda doesn't need a union.

Whether or not they seem "necessary" at the moment, unions are important. They allow employee concerns to be made clear and when profits are down, they prevent companies from making life miserable for employees.

[JayS]

44. "They allow employee concerns to be made clear"

Doesn't Honda have a good procedure for this already? I have heard that they are a pretty "open door" sort of company.

[Classical_Liberal]

49. Honda forces it's employees to anti=union seminars like Walmart

.

[WLKjr]

54. Really, THEY FORCE YOU?????`

I have gotten tapes about honda from a union befor. They are simply false in thier claims and have not one proof of fact in them.

and didn't you hear the news, a Wal-Mart in Canada is close to getting a union.

[Classical_Liberal]

58. Glad walmart in canada is close to getting a union.

It is no indication that the company isn't anitunion though, and your anonomys anecdotes are no indication Honda isn't antiunion. If they weren't they wouldn't have located in antiunion states. Canada makes it easier for workers to organize unions so it is simply a testement to Canada's better labor practices rather than walmarts.

[JayS]

62. Well...

...do they have beer at the meetings? :)

I don't mind a company being either anti- or pro-union just so long as they are fair to their employees. I have seen to many companies here move across the border after their payroll costs got high enough for this to make sense.

[Classical_Liberal]

66. antiunion companies don't generally have a good record

of treating employees well, and this posters claim that they do is no evidence that they do. At these meetings their is generally an implied threat to move the plant to another locale if a Union is formed.

[WLKjr]

50. They are

and concerns are dealt with swiftly. I have a friend who's father does a lot in fixing concerns for saftey reasons and general complaints. They do take car of their employee's both Financially, Family and Health Care wise. That is why I said some places do not need Unions, and on the other hand some do.

[MAlibdem]

52. I'm unconvinced...

Though I am reading The Jungle at the moment...

[BiggJawn]

56. I'd ask my brother who got fired from Honda...

..What he thought of working for them, but I don't really want to hear a 2-hour rant about "Fucking Japs" again....

Yeah, he mispoke. he should apologise. But even then, there are some here who will be all "Dennis/Wes/Howard would've never said such a stupid thing. Guess I'll go vote for Ralph..."

just hold your fucking noses, people, and pull the lever for Kerry this fall. You only have to vote for him, not FUCK him, f'krist's sake!

[WLKjr]

75. Thanks for the feedback everyone

I enjoyed the discussion and all the flamming and insults I recieved. Kerry is still the man to beat bush in '04, This was just something of a concern to me. Once again thanks for the posts!

[FattyMcCraigs]

76. two words

Grow up.

I hope all those people who have lost faith in Kerry because of his verbal blunder realize that G.W. can't string 5 words together in a coherent fashion.

[Throckmorton]

86. Sorry, Kerry is just another rich career politican,

running for president.

Flame Away

[eridani]

88. Why does Honda treat Ohio workers well?

Because the industry they are in is heavily UNIONIZED, dammit! Those workers are benefitting from the sacrifices of several generations of union organizers who helped make the pay norms in the auto industry what they are today. Those norms stay that way because auto workers in other companies stay unionized.