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Bog Frog Donating Member (214 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 12:23 PM
Original message
a revelation regarding the ultra-conservative right and Constitutionality
A small thought occurred to me this morning. As I was listening to a story on NPR about the polling numbers between Kerry & Bush, I heard a woman say that if Kerry would back the Federal Marriage Amendment, she would probably vote for him. If he does not, she'll vote for Bush.

It seems this woman believes that all it takes to make something unconstitutional is to make the Constitution say that it is not allowed.

How many people share this erroneous view of the Constitution?

Amending the Constitution to say "marriage shall only be between one man and one woman" does not make same-sex marriage unconstitutional! Marriage is a fundamental human right -- so says the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and our very own Supreme Court.

Don't these people understand that you can't amend the Constitution to ban a right?
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yes you can
Sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong. There is no limitation on constitutional amendments. Slavery could be reinstated. Anything at all can be done.
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DaveSZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yep
They could ban abortion, dwarf tossing, anything.

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dmkinsey Donating Member (789 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. True enough
But of course it can only become part of the Constitution after being approved by 2/3 of the states.And there's a time limit. Seven years(?)
A very high bar.
Look at the ERA, never enacted because it was never ratified by enough states.
DaveK
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greekspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
61. Count how many states are passing and have passed anti-gay marriage
legislation. You will find that 2/3 is not all that unattainable. With the government in Puke hands, it would be easier to pass than you think.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. It's much more complicated than that
Nobody really knows the answer to the question, which is basically, can there be such a thing as an unconstitutional constitutional amendment. Actually, the original poster may be more correct than you are.

There is a lot of debate about it among constitutional lawyers and law professors. For example, Professor Bruce Ackerman of Yale has argued at book length that if Congress and 2/3 of the states followed the required procedures and passed an amendment making the Baptist Church the state religion of the United States, the Supreme Court could still find the amendment unconstitutional because it violates a fundamental legal tradition.

There is a difference between what is in the constitution and what is constitutional. For example, the right to privacy, the right to use birth control, the right of a woman to an abortion, even the right of each person to have his vote count roughly equally in different chambers of state and local governments are all constitutional rights that are not explicitly in the constitution, but that the Supreme Court has found are fundamental to the constitutional principles of due process and equal protection.

I don't think that a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage would at this point be found unconstitutional; but a constitutional amendment to ban interracial marriage would undoubtedly be unconstitutional, even if it were properly adopted.

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Actually, I have to disagree with something I just posted...
I said that I didn't think a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage would at this point be found unconstitutional. What I mean by that is, that on equal protection grounds, I don't think that such an amendment would be unconstitutional.

But that kind of amendment would raise very, very difficult federalism issues, and if not very narrowly drafted could be unconstitutional.

Keep in mind exactly what the right is talking about with this amendment. It is not just to define marriage as being between a man and a woman, or discriminating against gays.

It is above all a limitation on the "full faith and credit" clause of the constitution that would affect the relationship between the states. Any state that doesn't want to solmnize gay marriages can refuse to do so. The entire debate is whether, if Massachusetts, Hawaii or Vermont allow gay marriage, will Alabama have to recognize that marriage.

Under the current system, each state must give "full faith and credit" to the acts of other states, including marriage. That's why you can go on vacation, get married in Las Vegas, Nevada, and come back to New York and New York must recognize your marriage.

Unless the amendment explicitly modifies the full faith and credit clause it would create an internal inconsistency in the constitution, that would allow courts to try to construe the conflicting parts together, perhaps deciding that one part (the full faith and credit clause, in the original constitution, created by the founding fathers) trumps another (a hastily drafted amendment created by the current generation of political RW hacks).

I personally think that such an amendment would be unconstitutional on federalism grounds.
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. An ammendment cannot be unconstitutional on ANY grounds
The text of the constitution is not subject to judicial review.


In all conflicts between an ammendment and anything else in the constitution, overt, contrued, whatever, the amendment wins. Period.

That is how it works.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. No, that's not how it works
You have a layman's view of how the constitution works. A lot of very smart law professors have been debating this very issue, and it isn't clear whether every conceivable constitutional amendment is constitutional. It is not just the text of the constitution that determines what is constitutional -- it's the overall legal constitutional tradition of our legal system.
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StopThief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Basically what you are saying. . . .
is that the only relevant aspect to Constitutional interpretation is the number five. Kind of a scary thought if not even explicitly amending the Constitution can reign in a rogue Supreme Court.

I'm going to disagree with you and say that any justices who tried such a thing would be properly impeached.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. No, the number is millions
What is constitutional is not just what 5 justices determine either -- what is constitutional may be declared by justices or recognized by t he political branches.

But what is most important is the political culture and constitutional traditions and expectations of millions of Americans.
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StopThief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Ummmm. . . . .
if all of the extroardinary steps that it takes to amend the Constitution were taken, the "expectations of millions of Americans" would be that the amendment to the Constitution be enacted.
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. Since your ken exceeds that of lay people
I know you aren't conflating the existence of an intellectual stance in debate with history, precedent or "how it works." That would be stupid and dishonest, since no honest person would describe a theoretical stance as being "how it works." Nor would an honest person confuse the existence of debate-level disagreement between academics who are not in the federal judiciary with an actual controversy in the actual state of the law.

So you must have some real-world basis for saying my characterization is "not how it works," and we are all dying to hear it.

Which amendments to the US Constitution have been struck down as unconstitutional?
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. This doesn't deserve a response
Since you are now just engaged in name calling, I won't respond to your juvenile post. But if you would like to be enlightened, you can read my views which will be developed elsewhere in this thread -- particularly those below about common law.

After you have had your time out, maybe you can come out a play again.
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. "Fuck yourself, moron" would be name calling.
Edited on Mon Jun-21-04 02:30 PM by troublemaker
I have reviewed the post in question and I don't see any name-calling in it unless you accept my characterization of your actions and motives. It's a "shoe-fits" kind of world up in here.
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PepSky Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
41. Take it from someone who has actually taken law classes
the previous poster is correct. You are not.

Just the fact you believe it is possible that a section of the constitution can be unconstitutional destroys any credibility you may have.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #41
67. People have been arguing that the 16th Amendment is Unconstitutional
for years because it expressly violates Article 1, Section 9, subsection 4 of the Constitution.

Of course they've been rightly laughed at since the Constitution can't be unconstitutional.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
36. Actually, Unless I'm Mistaken..
The way they set it up was that you can't amend the constitution in such a way to interfere, override or supercede the first 10 amendments, i.e. the Bill of Rights. Which hasn't stopped certain governmental agencies from rendering parts of the Bill of Rights (like, say, the 4th Amendment) effectively null and void via simply ignoring them.
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StopThief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Actually. you are mistaken.
Any amendment supercedes any contradictory section, whether it be in the body of the Constitution or any previous amendment, including the first ten.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Well, then, I'm mistaken.

Bummah.
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PepSky Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. For god sakes people
Read the actualy constitution before you comment or take a constitutional law class. Article 5 you should well know by the end of grade school.

The ONLY amendment that may NOT be made to the constitution is specifically spelled out in the constitution, and it has to do with the number of senators allocated to each state. And even *that* can be done with the effected state(s) consent. (the other restriction was by date and is no longer applicable)

Article 5

"The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; ***provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate. ***"
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. And even that can be amended
though it would require two amendments. One to strip the limiting language, another the effect the desired change.
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PepSky Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. Yup
Very very true.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #42
56. So F*ckin shoot me
Edited on Mon Jun-21-04 05:11 PM by impeachdubya
If they want to invalidate the first amendment, they can. Whoopie. I was under the impression Amendment I-X had a different status than the rest of the document. I was thinking of Article V, but was under the impression it applied to the Bill of Rights. Guess not. It's been a long time since 5th Grade, at least for me. At least I'm not laboring under the delusion that millions of Americans have, i.e. that the word "God" is mentioned anywhere within.

Anyway, lighten up, Francis.
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Bang! Bang! Damn... are these blanks? Hang on a minute....
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Scottie72 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #10
78. um small correction,,,,
it is 3/4 of states or 37.

A constitutional amendment cannot be found unconstitutional, that is the exact reason why an amendment is proposed in the first place.'

The right wing knows what they are trying to do is unconditional so the only way to stop it completely is to amend the Constitution.
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leyton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. The debate is about the definition of marriage, not the right.
If you define marriage as between a man and a woman, then homosexuals never had the right to marry in the first place. I'm not endorsing it, but that's probably the woman's perspective.
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StopThief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. Sorry, but you are wrong.
The text of the Constitution decides what is Constitutional. Plain and simple.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
6. well, duh?
It seems this woman believes that all it takes to make something unconstitutional is to make the Constitution say that it is not allowed.

Where did you learn your constitutional law? Hey, they had a constitutional amendment to ban alcoholic beverages. Still, maybe the Supreme court will dtermine that the Constitution is unconstitutional. No wonder we're in trouble.
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lanparty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
7. I heard the story, it's deceptive!!!!

I was ashamed of NPR this morning. The piece implied that Kerry was FOR gay marriage.

In fact, John Kerry has repeatedly stated that he's AGAINST gay marriage. He's FOR gay civil unions.

Fortunately, most NPR listeners know enough to realize the the story was deceptive.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. But the woman who was interviewed
Edited on Mon Jun-21-04 01:03 PM by supernova
probably doesn't know the difference, and probably doesn't approve of civil unions either.

edit: If we want her vote, we have to convice her there are more important issues (Iraq War) to be dicided than who gets married.
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donhakman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. When an Amendment is cumbersome...
A Presidential order works...

Like when Reagan made it illegal for planned parenthood to mention the word abortion to clients.
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Waverley_Hills_Hiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
45. her husband is in the military.
..probably Air Force, since she was from Dayton, Ohio (big air force base there).

So, she was already predisposed to vote GOP, since the military is a heavily GOP and conservative subculture.

I dont think she is that representative.
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Bog Frog Donating Member (214 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
14. I have read all the posts (even the ones implying
Edited on Mon Jun-21-04 01:49 PM by Bog Frog
that I am an idiot) and I don't understand.

HOW can you make a basic human right UNCONSTITUTIONAL?

The Volstead Act did it, yes. But the Volstead Act was repealed. Time told what many people already knew -- that prohibition was unconstitutional.

I appreciate the scholarly POV that one DUer posted. I appreciate the other views as well. Those of you who think I'm an idiot for not knowing Constitutional law or for not clearly understanding this can piss off.

Are any basic human right currently denied under the Constitution?

As to the definition of marriage: If marriage is a right, what does the definition matter? If the standard is Jefferson's -- "neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg" -- no one outside the marriage of two non-related consenting adults is harmed by that marriage.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Not only are you right, but...
It is very important for progressive people to avoid falling into the trap of believing that "constitutional" is anything that gets passed by 2/3 of the states and has the blessing of the nine lifers on the SCOTUS.

Most great advances in human rights in this country have come about because people insisted on their human, civil and political rights -- regardless of what the constitution or the supreme court said. Then either the court or Congress and the states recognized those rights.

Human, civil and political rights are not given and taken away by government; they inhere in the people. Governments may correctly recognize them or incorrectly fail to recognize them.

I disagree with you, however, that gay marriage at this time rises to that level, but the interstate issues might.

To those to disagree with you, I would ask:

Would a constitutional amendment making the Bush family the royal family of an American monarchy be constitutional? Would a constitutional amendment allowing the president to detain anyone in prison without trial for as long as he wants, and impose any punishment or torture be constitutional? (They're trying but they're not there yet!)

These are important questions to ask now, because that's the direction the country is going in, if another Bush gets elected.
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StopThief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. The answers to your two questions are. . . .
yes and yes.

There is a reason that it is very difficult to change the Constitution. It is because ANYTHING in the Constitution is in fact the "supreme law of the land".
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Bog Frog Donating Member (214 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. addressing your first sentence:
"It is very important for progressive people to avoid falling into the trap of believing that "constitutional" is anything that gets passed by 2/3 of the states and has the blessing of the nine lifers on the SCOTUS."

This is the very point I tried to make (and obviously miserably failed to make) in my original post! I know full well that "majority opinion" does not equal "constitutional."

Must go back to work. More later. Hope you'll be around.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Your original point ...
Edited on Mon Jun-21-04 02:42 PM by HamdenRice
Your original point and the way people reacted to it really sketch out basic differences in how people understand the law.

Very linear thinking, positivists, authoritarian minded people tend to think that the law is what the government says it is -- as long as the proper procedure was followed. This is how both Nazi Germany and apartheid South Africa treated the law. Anything the government did, no matter how horrendous, including extermination of human beings (Nazi Germany) or the complete segregation of society and abolition of the right to dissent (South Africa), was legal, so long as the proper procedure was followed.

That is not how our legal system works, with its thousand year old roots in the British legal tradition of a complex, multi-faceted, non-linear legal system, with overlapping authority of courts (many of them), legislatures, executives and a very rowdy populace aware of its rights.

Overlaid this system are the "authorities" -- in the old days, the Chancellor, church, ecclesiastical lawyers, inns of court, etc. Today it is the law professors, many of whom actually are working federal judges at the same time -- Posner, Calebresi, Easterbrook, the list goes on and on. Much of what appears in Supreme Court decisions is lifted right out of the writing of the modern authorities in the law reviews.

As you can see from the reaction to your post and my comments, the rigid, linear, anything-the-government-passes-is-law mentality, still appeals to authoritarian, rigid, linear thinkers. Thank goodness our legal system is not like that.

In our common law system, even the Supreme Court justices tend to think of the constitutional common law as being "out there" to be discovered and developed within the framework of the text of the constitution.

It creates a lot of neat paradoxes, like the Supreme Court's recent decision Lawrence v. Texas, deciding that sodomy laws that outlaw homosexuality are unconstitutional. In that decision, the Court said that not only was its prior decision, upholding sodomy laws, Bowers v. Hardwick, wrong today, but it was wrong when it was decided.

A rigid, linear authoritarian view of American common law would not be able understand this idea -- that sodomy laws were unconstitutional, even though the Supreme Court had said they were!

In this way, the Court was affirming one of its oldest common law traditions -- that what is constitutional is "out there" to be "discovered" by the court, but not every decision the court duly makes creates a rule that is truly constitutional.


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StopThief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Interesting Straw Men you like to argue against.
First you use the brilliant tactic, designed to shut up those that disagree with you, of accusing them of being like Nazis and supporters of Apartheid.

As to when you actually try and make a point, no one present has said that "the law is what the government says it is". The government makes all kinds of laws that can be invalidated by the Constitution. The point being made is that there exists no law that is above the Constitution within our legal system (of course, if there is a Creator, he/she/it might disagree).

Your sodomy cases example only proves my point. The interpretation of the Constitution only changed because the majority of the Court said it changed. It is certainly possible that a future Court will reverse the ruling again. If there was an amendment that said that sodomy was not protected by the Constitution, it would forever go unprotected by the Constitution until the time a later Amendment said that it was protected.
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Hi StopThief
Doubt he (or she) will be back soon...

There's little hope for progressive change if people think it's okay to believe that the world is whatever some theoretical law review piece says it maybe ought to be, rather than what it is. I would hate to have to live with some of the more fanciful "conservative" constitutional speculation I've read.

To the original poster: I hope you didn't take any of this personally. You seem nice and I'm sure your question was sincere and your heart in the right place, but we created basic human rights. There's no God... we did this. And, for good or ill, we can change it, even to the degree of eliminating existing human rights.
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StopThief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Hey troublemaker.
It's been a pleasure to read your posts on this thread. You are absolutely correct that if constitutional speculation by some professor somewhere were sufficient to alter how we see the Constitution, the document would be worthless.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. I'm not accusing anyone ...
My point is that there really is a type of legal reasoning called positivism, that basically says the law is what the government says when it properly passes a law. Or the constitution is what is in the text of a properly passed amendment or constitution.

But positivist systems really have been associated with legalistic tyranny. I used Nazi German and South Africa because their scholars and judges really, actually did embrace positivism and legalism. Apartheid South Africa was one of the most legalistic societies ever.

I am not accusing you of being a Nazi or an apartheid sympathiser, but your positivist view of law is the type of reasoning that positivist regimes have adopted.

Positivism has tended to lessen restraints on what governments do, because the legislators and executive tend to believe that everything they do is legal.

By contrast, there has always been a powerful tension in our system between positivism and "natural law". An example of natural law is the idea in the Declaration of Independence that certain laws are "self evident" and that men are endowed with rights by our creator.

The constitution "tamed" natural law, but it remains very important idea behind the common law method -- including the common law of the constitution -- and certain general ideas of fairness, embodied in constitutional terms like "due process," "equal protection," and "reasonableness."

Today, secular lawyers and legal scholars might not refer to a creator, but would say that we have certain rights just because we are human -- not because a government gave us those rights. Hence, a person like Henry Kissinger or Don Rumsfeld may be guilty of human rights abuses in Chile or Iraq, even if domestic law tries to make that person immune. Natural Law has essentially become international human rights law -- law that does not have to be "passed" by any specific institution to be generally binding.

As for the constitution being the highest law of the land, you can believe that and also believe, in accordance with our British legal tradition, that not all of "the constitution" (the 1000 year legal tradition) has been reduced to writing in "the Constitution" (the text). That's why we have rights that are not written down in the "Constitution," from privacy, to choice, to one-man-one-vote.

As for the Lawrence decision, you're missing one of the court's most fundamental point: Justice Kennedy wrote, "Bowers was not correct when it was decided, and it is not correct today. It ought not to remain binding precedent. Bowers v. Hardwick should be and now is overruled."

Justice Kennedy was saying exactly the opposite of what you are saying. Even though all the correct institutions and procedures lined up (ie, Texas legislature and five votes on the Supreme Court) to say sodomy laws were constitutional, in fact, they were not -- not then and not now. The constitutional common law was still "out there" waiting to be correctly discovered by the current court.

Similarly, constitutional lawyers do not believe that segregation in the US was "constitutional" during the period between Plessy v. Ferguson and Brown v. Board of Education. Even though all the relevant institutions "blessed" segregation, it was still wrong and still unconstitutional, even when it was being practiced.
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StopThief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Here's a question for you.
Edited on Mon Jun-21-04 03:52 PM by StopThief
If the text of the Constitution is not the "law of the land", and the holdings of a majority of the Supreme Court are not the "law of the land", what exactly is the authority that is going to enlighten the nation and our institutions as to what exactly the law is in this nation?

As far as Kennedy's phrase concerning Bowers, it is dicta and nothing more. Such language was necessary to justify the fact that the Court ignored Stare Decisis.
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amjsjc Donating Member (203 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #30
66. You're fundamentally misconstruing what courts do...
Courts are in the business of interpreting how existing laws are to be applied in the world, not 'making' law in any sense of the word. Common law dictates that the law must be consistent, and therefore a court decision on any particular matter (generally) acts as binding precident over any future cases concerning the same subject. This means that the court may decide that (for example) the Constitutional right to privacy covers a woman's right to an abortion. However this is not the same thing as saying than an explicit right to abortion has been added to the document.
The Constitution is not 'waiting to be discovered;' rather it exists in stone, with the courts deciding exactly how it should be implemented. Granted the courts, in making these decisions will sometimes all but declare that black is white (ie a decision that the draft does not constitute involuntary servitude) and make judgements that have more to do with personal opinions than what's actually in the document. But this isn't what they're supposed to do.The ideas implicit within the Constitution carry no legal weight unless they can be connected to a concrete clause within the document.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #66
72. This is not what courts -- and the political system -- do
You wrote that:

>>The Constitution is not 'waiting to be discovered;' rather it exists in stone, with the courts deciding exactly how it should be implemented.

This is one view of the Constitution -- the view favored by Justices Scalia, Thomas and Renquist. This is called strict constructionism. For example, Thomas has argued that the prohibition on "cruel and unusual punishment" must be interpreted in terms of what was cruel and unusual in the late 1700s, when the clause was written.

Almost all the great justices of the 20th century -- from Holmes to Warren to Marshall to Brennan -- have believed that the Constitution is an evolving document, somewhat like the idea of the British constitution, which is primarily not written.

As for a court deciding that an amendment is not constitutional -- that is not the argument that our most important legal scholars are making. It is that the concept of constitutionality and unconstitutionality are separate from "what courts do." The framers were not sure who would determine what institution would determine what is constitutional until Marbury v. Madison. They believed, and most liberal and progressive legal scholars still believe, that "constitutionality" would be determined in part politically, by various branches and by the people through political processes.

When a president, other than Bush, for example, decides that it would be wrong to detain a person without trial, even though he has the power to do so, or even if he has a majority on the Supreme Court, then the executive is using his restraint to interpret constitutionality. When Congress passes the Boland Amendment to prevent secret war in Central American it is asserting its idea of constitutionality as well.

If an amendment were duly enacted that, for example, made the Bush family the royal family, then even if the Supreme Court refused to declare the amendment unconstitutional, it still would be. At that point, other branches of government, states, localities and the people would presumably refuse to recognize King George (or Neil or Jeb) until the circumstances were rectified.




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StopThief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #72
77. You miss an obvious point.
Edited on Tue Jun-22-04 08:14 AM by StopThief
You write: "If an amendment were duly enacted that, for example, made the Bush family the royal family, then even if the Supreme Court refused to declare the amendment unconstitutional, it still would be. At that point, other branches of government, states, localities and the people would presumably refuse to recognize King George (or Neil or Jeb) until the circumstances were rectified."

You seem to think that a Constitutional amendment can somehow be enacted out of thin air. It is a very difficult process (I won't list all of the steps because they are listed elsewhere in the thread). If somehow you're proposed amendment were ratified, it would mean that society had come to the point of believing it was necessary. Your argument basically states that society would rise up against its own decision. Not likely.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #77
81. Faith in the American people
Yes, that is a paradox, and a democratic understanding of the evolving constitution ultimately rests on faith in the good sense and democratic traditions and instincts of the American people to resist an amendment that violates those traditions.

But the democratic understanding of the constitution is also designed to prevent purely positivist outcomes.

In other words, to be more concrete, the circumstances under which a "bad" amendment is passed by 2/3 of Congress and 3/4 of the states would be one in which those majorities did not really reflect the constitutional traditions of the population.

The precedent for this is the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments. Although they are among the greatest, most democratic in spirit, they were passed somewhat illegitimately. They were forced through southern states that were essentially militarily occupied, with agreement to pass the amendments as conditions for re-entry into the Union.

When scholars worry about unconstitutional amendments and popular understandings of constitutionalism, they are positing an undemocratic takeover of the institutions that can make an amendment happen. With the Bush administration in power, these kinds of scenarios are no longer so far fetched. Suppose for example, Bush wins the Jose Padilla case. This will permit the president to designate any US citizen an enemy combatant to be held indefinitely without charge. Over a second bush administration could the category of enemy combants be enlarged? Could a second Bush administration "suppress" the Democratic party, as so many right wing commentators, from Ann Coulter to Sean Hannity want it to? Could the republicans steal sufficient elections, or bully their way into gaining these formal majorities?

I once lived in a developing country that had a repressive government, and most of the people there could not believe how, over decades, their system had become authoritarian in small steps, and how the illusion of legality was maintained through a formal (but illegitimate) Parliamentary majority and compliant courts.

This is why it is very important to maintain, even as a theoretical matter, the public, multi-institutional participation in deciding what is constitutional and what is unconstitutional, not leaving it entirely to the courts, Congress and state legislatures.
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amjsjc Donating Member (203 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #72
87. Actually it is...
The Constitution does evolve, but not in the way you suggest. What evolves are not the clauses of the document itself, but what we hold those clauses to mean. For example if you wish to read over the case history of the 14th Amendment's equal protection clause, what evolves is not the language of the Constitution itself, but rather what the justices hold to constitute 'equal protection under the laws'. (Strict Constructionists, by the way, argue that our interpretations of the Constitution should not go beyond what the creators of the document intended the document to mean; thus you get Scalia arguing that 'cruel and unusual punishment' should be interpreted to mean what it meant (or what we think the founding fathers thought it meant) in the late 18th century.)
Anyway, back to what I recall was the crux of the issue: You need to make a distinction between court interpretations of the Constitution--which the courts themselves can change-- and the text of the document itself, which the courts cannot change. When speaking of an 'evolving document' jurists are referring to changing court interpretations of the Constitution, and the fact that the document must be further interpreted to deal with new issues such as abortion. At the end of the day if the text of the Constitution itself is sancrosanct; the courts absolutely cannot touch it, and if it is changed then the courts are required to interpret the new amendment. It's as simple as that.
You are quite correct that there is a notion of constitutionality that exists separate from the constitution. Beyond what the document actually says people have an idea of what the document should say. That said we've given the legal right to decide what the document means to the courts, and what anyone else says does not carry the weight of law or precedent. Certainly, as you suggest, a president might decide not to detain a person without trial because he feels that it is unconstitutional to do so; however as such he is not making a legally binding interpretation of the constitution, he is merely declining to excercise presidential authority based on a moral interpretation of the document. If the president decided to take the same action for personal religious reasons it would carry exactly the same legal weight as if he did it because he felt the action to be an affront to the Constitution.
To further the example; if Bush managed to make himself king through Constitutional amendment, Constitutionally he would be the king of the country. The courts would have no power to affect this act. You are correct that many (hopefully all) states would ceceede from the Union, but this would be because they consider democratic ideals more important than a strict fealty to a piece of paper. Their actions would, in some sense, violate the Constitution, just as the decision by the south states to seceede in 1861 violated the Constitution.
Moreover, for fun, once Bush scraps the Bill of Rights and starts hauling liberals (ie you) into a star chamber, you could try arguing that such an action violates your Constitutional rights, and see just how far that gets you.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #72
89. But if such an amendment
Edited on Tue Jun-22-04 02:38 PM by forgethell
were enacted, then the vast majority of the American people would have to be behind it. The dissenters would be violently put down (see American Civil War in any good encyclopedia, and we would have a new constitutional order.

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NewEmanuelGoldstein Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #30
74. Just curious
Where in the constitution did the Supreme Court find:

* the "constitutional right to abortion?"

* the "constitutional right to not have a Democratic governor recalled?"

* the "constitutional right to sodomy?"

* the "constitutional right to order a stop to re-counts of disputed election votes/results? "

Answer: nowhere.

Maybe if the SC would actually read the f**king constitution we already have, and apply it before they make rulings, then we wouldn't have politicins thinking a "no gay marriages" ammendment would be a good idea.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
88. How do you define
"CONSTITUTIONAL"?? It's what's in the constitution. that's it. The constitution was written to protect the inherent rights of man, but as we all know, slavery was permitted, and was "constitutional". Not "right" not "moral", but definitely "constitutional".

Because different people have different ideas about what "rights" exist, the political process comes into play, as does the judiciary. But, and this is important, the process is not necessarily a one-way ratchet. A majority can eventually get its own way, even over the Supreme Court. Electing conservative presidents who will appoint justices that agree with them is one way. Amending the Constitution is another. Think about a constitutional crisis: The supreme court declares the constitution (or a duly passed amendment)unconstitutional!!. We really would have riots in the streets.

Finally, there could be a revolution. Throw the bastards out, destroy the institutions and put new ones in their place. You don't think conservatives can revolt, instead of are revolting? Maybe not. But the conservatives will not be impressed by your argument that they can't amend the constitution to take away a right that they never recognized.
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. No progressive falls into that trap
re: "It is very important for progressive people to avoid falling into the trap of believing that "constitutional" is anything that gets passed by 2/3 of the states and has the blessing of the nine lifers on the SCOTUS."

Nobody thinks that except perhaps yourself. Most of us do, however, "fall into the trap of believing that "constitutional" is anything that gets passed by three fourths of the states and two thirds of both Houses."

Granted, I am limited to my "layman's view" of the constitution, so I naively think an amendment requires 2/3 of each house and 3/4 of the states and doesn't require any consent from SCOUTUS or the President, but what the fuck do I know? I'm sure some "very smart" legal minds out there have all sorts of ideas on this topic.

________________________________________

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
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PepSky Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #31
49. Actually congress doesn't even need to be in on it
It can be entirely the doing of the states. There are 4 methods to amend the constitution.

"**or**, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution" - this was the method used to actually enact the constitution to begin with. It doesn't requre the the national house & senate to be involved.
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PepSky Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
44. Christ
"avoid falling into the trap of believing that "constitutional" is anything that gets passed by 2/3 of the states and has the blessing of the nine lifers on the SCOTUS. "

I feel like I'm reading the republican platform talking about believing the "myth" of the separation of church and state.

Any amendment is constitutional. Yes, bush could become the royally family of america with an amendment.

Please promptly go to your library and find a book explaining the definitions of "constitutional" and "unconstitutional".
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
46. Yes and Yes
The Supreme Court does not have the power to "overturn" Constitutional Amendments. They must interpret the whole thing, without ignoring even a single word.

If the Constitution were to be amended, making the Bush family rulers by heredity, there would be nothing that could be done except attempt to amend the Constitution again to remove that clause.

To get back to the realm of sanity, let us speak of DOMA and the SSM amendment, because the example explains much. DOMA is pretty much unconstitutional. It hasn't been ruled as such, because it hasn't been challenged, but there it is. Congress used its power to enforce full faith and credit to remove the requirement, something it is not capable of doing. However, the SSM amendment would not suffer this weakness, since it grants Congress the implied power to remove that requirement. The penumbra of this would be even more drastic, since, depending on the wording, it could imply that Congress had the ability to use its regulatory power to remove requirements in other instances.
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PepSky Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. Actually DOMA is constitutonal
under the full faith and credit clause. It states that states are not required to recognize other states same sex marriages, and unfortunately this is legal per the constitution as it is an explicit power.

See article 4 section 1

"Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof."

according to "And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof" congress can regulate it. This is why some things drivers licenses are valid between the states, yet certain other legal documents are not.

So I'd imagine you could not win in court on the argument that it is unconstitutional due to the full faith and credit clause. HOWEVER - you could possible argue that opposite sex marriages are recognized between the states, and seeing as this law specifically denies same sex marriage recognition between the states is unconstitutional per the equal protection clause.

Also - the other primary point of the federal DOMA (same sex marriage is not recognized by the federal government) is probably unconstitutional due to equal protection as well.
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Even with Bush v. Gore
and it's extraordinary expansion of the scope of equal protection (just being snide... couldn't resist), an equal protection argument against DOMA would be a long-shot. IMO.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. Not really
It's a pretty straightforward argument.

Person A and Person B may marry.
Person C and Person B may not marry.

The only difference between A and C is their gender. That's about as cut and dry as it gets.

Gender discrimination for no other purpose than to reinforce gender roles is unconstitutional.

If people would like, I can post my entire essay on the subject.
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. I'm not seeing it
I favor gay marriage but I'd hate to have to argue it on an equal protection basis.

As a class, who is hurt by DOMA? Men or women? If the answer is "both" it's a problem for a gender discrimination argument.

Neither gender is denied the benefits of marriage should they opt for them. Their choices are limited, but limited in a gender neutral way. The discrimination is against people who want to marry people of the same gender, and that set of persons isn't a gender.

Wasn't Sandra Day O'Conner the only justice to see an equal protection argument in the sodomy case? I don't see equal protection for gay people until congress makes them a protected class. (Holding my breath...)
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. Bullshit
Have you looked at Loving v. Virginia? It's the same case, with gender replacing race. Just because blacks could marry blacks and whites could marry whites did not change the simple fact that blacks and whites were each discriminated against in different ways... blacks were arbitrarily denied the right to marry whites, and whites were arbitrarily denied the right to marry blacks.

To continue with the previous example:

Person A, a male, marries Person B, also a male. Person A seeks to get survivor benefits after Person B passes away. He is denied, because he is a man. That's about as cut-and-dry you can get. If he were female, he would have survivor benefits. He is not, therefore they are denied.

The discrimination is against people who want to marry people of the same gender, and that set of persons isn't a gender.

Bullshit, in the same way that the discrimination in Loving was not against people who want to marry people of a different race.

Really, the whole notion of "sexual orientation" is just as meaningless in this case as a fictitious notion of "racial orientation" (an orientation towards loving a person of a different race) would be in Loving.
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #65
69. Nonsensical (Thanks for the 'bullshit', by the way. Always appreciated)
>Person A, a male, marries Person B, also a male. Person A seeks to get survivor benefits after Person B passes away. He is denied, because he is a man. That's about as cut-and-dry you can get. If he were female, he would have survivor benefits. He is not, therefore they are denied.

This is nonsensical. In what sense is person A "denied, because he is a man?" He is denied because his rights as a surviving spouse are not recognized because the marriage is considered invalid wherever this story is taking place. If it was a valid marriage then he wouldn't be denied benefits at all! If he was a woman he'd get benefits... sure, if he was a woman married to the dead guy. But if he was married to the guy he would get benefits no matter his gender.

There is no distinction made on the basis of gender. Just saying "this is about gender" isn't an argument.

As far as Loving v. Virginia... race is different in American law and in equal protection cases race is different times ten. You can't ever say something is "the same case, with x replacing race." The entirety of Loving is about the court breaking with precedent because racial considerations are unique; explicitly saying again and again that racial categorizations are not like other categorizations. Until Congress makes homosexuals a protected class vis-a-vis the 14th Amendment there will not be a sensible equal protection argument for same-sex marriage.

That's just the state of the law. If you think the state of the law is "bullshit" that's cool. But my representation of the law is not bullshit.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. It has nothing to do with homosexuality
Your argument doesn't make a damn bit of sense. It's a ridiculously simple concept. When Person A is not recognized as married to Person B, solely because Person A is male, Person A has been a victim of gender discrimination. The gender of Person B does not matter. If Person A were female, A would be recognized as married to B, but since A is male, A is not recognized as married to B.

This is the same logic the court endorsed in Loving. Either Loving was decided wrongly, and states have the power to pass anti-miscegenation laws, or it was decided correctly, and similar logic may apply in other instances.

Your claim in the second paragraph is specious... He is denied because the marriage is considered invalid, and the marriage is considered invalid for the SOLE REASON that A is a man. Your assertion that this does not amount to gender discrimination is laughable at best.

You are correct in one small way - race is more of a suspect classification than gender... there exists valid discrimination on the basis of gender. However, simply enshrining current notion of gender roles is not a valid governmental interest enough to trump the Equal Protection Clause.

If you'd like, you can try and argue that there's a significant governmental interest in discriminating against men (or women... it doesn't matter which one you pick, really) in this manner. I'll give you a hint, though - procreation isn't going to cut it.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #71
73. You are correct about gender -- one addendum
As you have been trying to point out, the gay marriage issue is an equal protection issue. One addendum, which you get at in your last post, is very important.

The equal protection clause does not completely forbid discrimination -- racial, gender or economic. It has been interpreted to mean that if there is discrimination, it must be justified according to one of several standards. Racial discrimination must pass "strict scrutiny" which is the most difficult to justify. The reason for the discrimination must be compelling and the means must be extremely narrowly tailored. Ordinary economic discrimination (eg the classic example of regulating the hours of bakers) need only pass the "rational relationship test" of serving a legitimate governmental end and being rationally related to that end. Gender discrimination must pass a test that is in between -- sometimes called "semi-strict scrutiny."

The argument for gay marriage is, as you point out, that when legislatures try to justify why men can marry women, but men cannot marry men and women cannot marry women, they tend not to be able to come up with good reasons.

For example, some have argued that marriage between a man and a woman produces children. But gays and lesbians have children and can adopt children, and not all straight couples can have children. Once the "children in marriage" argument falls apart, the legislatures fall back on silly arguments like religion and tradition.

This kind of equal protection analysis is the approach that courts in Hawaii and Massachusetts have taken.

It is absolutely specious to say that the discrimination is merely between couples who have a valid marriage license and couples who don't -- because that does not address the discrimination of the state in refusing to award a marriage license to gays and lesbians in the first place.




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StopThief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #71
79. Facts vs. Opinion
Fact: The only category that has been explicitly written into the Constitution is race via the XVth Amendment. Therefore you cannot reasonably substitute any other category for race in Loving (my opinion).

Opinion: "simply enshrining current notion of gender roles is not a valid governmental interest enough to trump the Equal Protection Clause".

It is certainly possible that the Court will eventually agree with your reasoning, but until they do you cannot assume that it will be the case.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #79
86. Sorry, but your opinion is misguided
Fact: The 14th Amendment, which is what we're talking about, does not mention race, gender, religion, or any other category.

Fact: Race is not the only category that is explicitly written into the Constitution. Amendment XIX mean anything to you?

Fact: Equal protection does not just apply to race. If a state discriminates against any group without a valid interest (different for different categories), it denies citizens equal protection.

If you can explain how the Court can be intellectually honest and not sign on to similar reasoning, please do.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. Do you have access to JSTOR?
I just finished doing a research project on why bans on same-sex marraige are unconstitutional, and addressed DOMA.

Rather than saying that "Full faith and credit may be given" and that the legislature "shall" regulate it (the original version), the Constitution states that "Full faith and credit shall be given." I go over this point in somewhat more detail in my paper, and my source devotes an entire article to it. If you have access to JSTOR or law journals through another method, I can send you the citation.

As for the federal definition of marriage, that's troublesome on more than just the equal protection grounds. The Tenth Amendment leaves certain powers to the States, and Supreme Court jurisprudence indicates that family law is one of these powers.
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PepSky Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. Have you read the federal DOMA?
The federal DOMA does not take any powers away from the states as you imply here:

"As for the federal definition of marriage, that's troublesome on more than just the equal protection grounds. The Tenth Amendment leaves certain powers to the States, and Supreme Court jurisprudence indicates that family law is one of these powers."

It simply says that same sex marriage is not recognized by the FEDERAL government. It stills leaves the option open to the states.

It does, however, regulate full faith and credit.

"And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof."

You are correct. It does say that full faith and credit SHALL be given. However, looking at current legal fact your point doesn't hold weight. If full faith and credit was an absolute then EVERY legal document should be valid between the states. Yet the fact remains that is not the case.

Furthermore, congress is clearly given the ability to decide the *effect* of "acts, records, and proceedings" between the states. They can so decide that the effect is null as they have done before.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. Yes, I have
Here's some stuff from the article I mentioned earlier (fair use is a wonderful thing).

First, on DOMA:
The plain language of the Full Faith and Credit Clause might suggest that Congress can regulate only incidental matters relating to the manner of how an Act, Record, or Proceeding from a sister state may be introduced in court. This authority over purely procedural aspects would, for example, permit Congress to require that acts from sister states be authenticated by the official state seal, or that records and judicial proceedings from sister states be accompanied by the seal of the court, the attestation of the clerk, and the certificate of a judge. Acts, records, and judicial proceedings presented in this manner receive effect, while acts, records and proceedings not so authenticated do not receive effect. This is the implication of the words, "Congress may... prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof." If this is so, it puts a cruel twist on the language to say that Congress's mandate to prescribe "the Manner in which ... Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof" contains within it the power to prescribe that certain unpopular legal outcomes shall be entitled to no effect. The language of the Full Faith and Credit Clause itself does not lend Congress the affirmative power to deny categorically the effect of certain substantive laws. Proponents of DOMA must do more than merely point to the plain language of the Clause to support their claim of congressional authority.

This reading of the Clause is substantiated by comparing the placement and language of the Full Faith and Credit Clause to that of other constitutional grants of power to Congress. Congress's most essential powers are delineated in Article I, Section 8 - so finely as to include such details as the regulation of post offices and the punishment of piracy. The power to draft choice of law rules does not appear therein. Elsewhere, grants of congressional power, particularly power to take away part of what the Constitution has given, are clearly defined. For example, concerning congressional elections, the Framers laid down a general rule and then granted Congress the power to vary the rule: "The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at an time by Law make or alter such Regulations..."

The Framers understood that to state a constitutional mandate and then allow Congress free reign to undo it was something that should be handled delicately; in such cases they communicated with the clearest of terms. Preceding the Full Faith and Credit Clause in the Constitution there is another general rule coupled with an explicit congressional ability to carve out exceptions: "The supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction... with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make." In contrast, a dozen lines later, the Constitution mandates that "Full Faith and Credit shall be given" and gives no hint that Congress has any right to "make or alter" rules, or "create exceptions." When the Framers intended to award Congress broad power, particularly when such power was paired with an accompanying textual mandate, they used different language than that which appears in the Full Faith and Credit Clause. The Full Faith and Credit Clause does not constitute - as a matter of plain meaning and structural analysis - a delegation to Congress of the power to abrogate the operation of the Clause in particular types of caess.

Contemporaneous congressional action is consistent with the theory that Congress was granted minimal legislative power. Wasting little time, the First Congress chose to legislate in the area on May 26, 1790. However, this legislation basically restated the Full Faith and Credit Clause and then did no more than fill in the details of how acts, records and proceedings could be authenticated. In 1804, Congress created similar provisions specifically for nonjudicial records. Aside from these minor excursions relating only to the general manner of authenticating out-of-state matters, and not to the effect of particular acts, records or proceedings, Congress let the Full Faith and Credit Clause lie dormant for nearly two centuries. The plain meaning of the text and the history of congressional action suggest a limited scope of congressional power.

Notwithstanding some evidentiary ambiguity, careful analysis of the constitutional debates indicates that the Framers intended to limit Congress's powers under the Full Faith and Credit Clause. It is true that one part of the constitutional debates suggests that Congress was delegated broad authority by the grant to regulate the "manner" and "effect" of acts, records and proceedings. An initial version of the Full Faith and Credit Clause referred to the power to "prescribe the manner in which such acts, Recotds, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect which Judgements obtained in one state, shall have in another. This owuld have constituted a clear grant to Congress to prescribe the effects of judgments - but not acts and records. Therefore Gouvernor Morris proposed an amendment which would shorten the phrase to "the effect thereof" and is was understood that the word "thereof" would reference "Acts, records and proceedings" This history identifies the referent of the word "thereof" and suggests that the Effects Clause was not merely meant to refer to the effect of different manners of proof. Scholars have relied on precisely this Morris Amendment to argue for a broad scope of congressional power.

However, it does not necessarily follow that Congress was given unlimited power to regulate choice of law or the interstate effect of state judgments. After incorporating Gouvernor Morris's amendment, the complete text of the Full Faith and Credit Clause read as follows: "Full faith and credit ought to be given in each State to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state, and the legislature shall by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof." This version of the Clause contained only the precatory words that full faith and credit "ought to be given," and required that Congress legislate the effect of acts, records and proceedings (acts, records, and proceedings all being captured by the word "thereof"). If Congress has never passed any legislation, full faith and credit would not have been mandated by this rendition of the Constitution. Had Morris's language remained, Congress would, of necessity, have retained the entire power to legislate full faith and credit law, or else the Full Faith and Credit Clause would have been useless.

But then Madison proposed the next, and final, amendment. The Clause was changed to its modern form: "Full faith and credit shall be given in each State to the public acts, records and judicial proceedings of every other state; and the legislature may by general laws prescribe the manenr in which such acts, records and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof." This version of the Clause contains a constitutional mandate of full faith and credit which preceds any congressional action. It is contemplated that Congress may - or may not - enact legislation. Whether it does or not, the textual requirement, stated in affirmative terms, remains. The constitutional text has a lifeblood of its own.

The vitality of the first stentence, demanding that every state recognize the acts, records and proceedings of every other state, was made clear by a quirk of history. In its 1790 legislation, Congress left out the word "Acts." The Supreme Court decided that this clause of the Constitution was self-executing with respect to acts - clearly illustrating that the first sentence of the Full Faith and Credit Clause has a "bite" of its own. As stated in Thomas v. Washington Gas Light Co, "it is quite clear that Congress's power in this area is not exclusive, for this Court has given effect to the Clause beyond that required by implementing legislation."

What happens, then, if a congressional statute directly conflicts with the text's substantive requirement of full faith and credit? Can Congress pass a law saying "Full Faith and Credit shall be given ... to ... every other State except Missouri?" Can Congress enact a law stating that "Full Faith and Credit shall never be given to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of other states"? The answer is obvious: By the terms of Marbury v. Madison, any substantive conflict must be resolved in favor of the Constitution. The Framers did not engage in "prescribing limits, and declaring that those limits may be passed at pleasure."

The Madison Amendment set such a limit. It shifted words with fine-tuned precision, insisting that full faith and credit "shall" - rather than "ought to" - be given to each state's works. The grant of legislative authority was paired with a specific textual constraint. Prior to the Madison Amendment, the Clause operated as a blank check - it amounted to the directive: "Congress shall enact legislation and it ought to encourage faith and credit." It is under this version of the Clause, and this version only, that DOMA might make sense. But this is not the version that was ultimately incorporated into the Constitution. The Full Faith and Credit Clause as it was ratified amounts to something more than "Full Faith and Credit shall be given whenever Congress sees fit."


Next, on the Supremacy Clause and State Family Law:
When federal law displaces state law, as DOMA does, courts evaluate the conflict with reference to the Supremacy Clause and preemtion doctrine. Normally when federal law, by its terms, conflicts with state law, the Supremacy Clause provides for the preemption state law. However, this preemption doctrine is sometimes modified to suit different situations, for when federal law abuts an area of particular state concern, federal law may not prevail. When family law is involved, the standard has been particularly charitable to the states and the federal government has had to satisfy an unusually rigorous test before its law will prevail. As stated by the Fifth Circuit, "Federal respect for state domestic relations law has a long and venerable history. When courts face a potential conflict between state domestic relations law and federal law, the strong presumption is that the state law should be given precedence... the law of family relations has been a sacrosanct enclave, carefully protected against federal intrusion."

The Supreme Court has considered on a handful of occasions whether federal or state law will control when their terms conflict and matters of domestic relations are at stake. Not every tension between a federal statute and state family law should be resolved in favor of the federal statute. Applying state family law must pose a high degree of harm to the organic purpose of the federal statute before state family law will be overridden. Because of this unique manner in which preemption doctrine is applied to domestic relations, section 3 of DOMA is unlikely to receive actual legal effect.

In De Sylva v. Ballentine, a 1955 case, the Court declared that while "the scope of a federal right is, of course, a federal question... that does not mean that its content is not to be determined by state, rather than federal law. De Sylva involved the Federal Copyright Act, which granted to "the children" of a dead author the right to renew a copyright for a 28-year period. The question was whether an illegitimate child could take advantage of this right. The Court held that state law should decide whether an illegtimate child falls within the definition of "child" for the purposes of the federal statute. The Court reasons that the doctrine that state law should flesh out the meaning of a federal statute "is especially true where a statute "is especially true where a statute deals with a familial relationship. This question of which children meet the federal definition of "child" parallels the question of whether gay or lesbian spouses meet the federal definition of "spouse." In both cases, the determination of family status is the flashpoint of conflict.

The Court reached a similar conclusion to DeSylva in United States v. Yazell. In this case, the Federal Small Business Administration attempted to collect a loan which had been given to Yazell and his wife after their small business had been ruined in a flood. The wife contended that she could not be held responsible for the defaulted loan because under the coverture law of her home state, she was not able to bind herself by contract. The Court allowed state law to dictate the result, and held that the government could not collect the loan from her. The Court acknowledged that most Supremacy Clause cases are resolved in favor of federal law, but stated that "none of these cases overrode state law in the peculiarly state province of family arrangements."

De Sylva and Yazell suggest that DOMA cannot override state law when domestic relations are involved. However, De Sylva and Yazell are distinguishable from DOMA in one important respect: The federal statutes before the Court did not explicitly define their terms. The law in De Sylva did not evince on its fact any clear intent concerning the status of illegitimate children, and the law in Yazell did not specifically comment on the law of coverture. In contrast, DOMA deliberately and explicitly defines the words "marriage" and "spouse," in the very anticipation of conflict with state law. Yazell reserved the question of what would happen in the event of such a clear congressional intent: "We do not here consider the question of the constitutional power of the Congress to override state law in these circumstances by direct legislation... We decide only that this Court, in the absence of specific congressional action, should not decree in this situation that implementation of federal interests requires overriding the particular state rule involved here."

But is a clear congressional intent all that is required to supersede a state policy? If clarity alone is sufficient, Congress would have free license to trample in even an area of the utmost state concern merely by speaking plainly. The Supreme Court has suggested that when Congress is treading in the area of family law it must be more than just clear. In Yazell, the Court decreed that state family law would be superseded only if "clear and substantial interests of the National Government, which cannot be served consistently with respect for such state interests, will suffer major damage if the state law is applied." Since Yazell, the Supreme Court has used a two-part analysis, inquiring first whether Congress has "positively required by direct enactment" a result that differs from that obtained under state law, and second whether applying state law would do "major damage" to "clear and substantial" federal interests. The "major damage" requirement is not present in traditional preemption cases, but is unique to caess involving domestic relations. This unusually strict condition for preemtion has been reiterated in each of the subsequent Supreme Court cases balancing the Supremacy Clause with the traditional state right to govern domestic relations.


That's not nearly all, but my hand is actually starting to hurt from typing all that.

Basically, it doesn't matter that it's a federal entitlement that we're talking about; it still infringes on the state's right to decide matters of domestic relations.
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StopThief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. You're mistake is in thinking that there are any. . . .
"basic human rights" that are by definition within the Constitution without being explicitly put there.

There exists no law, whether divine or otherwise, that supercedes the Constitution within the context of our legal system.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. You are making the "positivist" error
Edited on Mon Jun-21-04 02:10 PM by HamdenRice
You don't really understand what "law" is in our system. You are confusing "law" and "statutes"-- the positivist fallacy. The constitution is the highest "positivist" law, but it is not necessarily the highest law. In the world of lawyers, there is a lot of law that is not positive, or written law. It is the common law. In our system, unlike say the South African or German constitutional system, constitutional law develops according to a common law model. Or look at it from the British constitutional perspective: yes, the constitution is the highest law of the land, but not all of the constitution is written in "the" Constitution.

The best way of understanding the positivist fallacy is to ask yourself rhetorical questions about constitutional amendments.

Could an amendment for example say that while all states must give full faith and credit to the acts of other states -- they don't have to give full faith and credit to the acts of Massachusetts?

Could an amendment abolish the private property of all Catholics?

Once you ask these questions, it becomes clear that there are amendments that would violate our constitutional principles.
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StopThief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Yes and yes. . . . . .
There is NO possible amendment that would violate the Constitution. One might violate what YOU believe to be "our constitutional principles" but your ephemeral principles do not override anything that is explicitly in the Constitution.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
50. That's not entirely true
An Amendment abolishing the Senate, or changing it's nature as a body to represent the states, would not be constitutional, as the Constitution clearly indicates that such amendments are invalid, just like an amendment that didn't go through the process correctly would be invalid.
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Yes and No
The limiting language is itself subject to excision. It would take two separate amendments; one to excise the limitation, one to change the Senate.

So yes, there is a conceivable amendment that would be unconstitutional, but only as a formal matter. Should the requisite political will exist to change the Senate it could be accomplished without violating the constitution. (In that sense the protective language is a kind of Constitutional dicta.)
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #52
60. Good point... I think I mentioned a similar case earlier
It's rather odd that Article V does not prevent eliminating Article V.
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Jesus...
The constitution supersedes developed common law when conflicts arise. The fact that our law is more than the constitution does not in any way *limit* the constitution. Of course the constitution is not the entirety of the law but it is SUPREME where conflicts arise.

The obvious answer to your hypotheticals is "YES"

Please brush up on some key concepts before high-handedly lecturing people...

Perhaps your error is innocent and you don't realize the role of theoretical academic law in the broader system. It's important to our legal *culture* but has nothing to do with the law itself.
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StopThief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. Sorry, duplicate post.
Edited on Mon Jun-21-04 02:57 PM by StopThief
nfm
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StopThief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. As to your mention of "the common law". . . .
you are right that it has formed the basis of our legal system, but it ONLY applies in the absence of a relevant statute. Any statute that does not violate the Constitution supercedes the common law.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
47. Common law does not supersede the Constitution
I have to wonder how much you know about what you're talking about... Britain doesn't have a Constitution.

Both of your suggested amendments would indeed be valid... the limits on amendments are clearly stated in Article 5, and neither of those falls within such a category.

The only way such amendments would be unconstitutional is if Article V were first amended to include additional restrictions upon amendments.
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NewEmanuelGoldstein Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #17
75. technicaly you're right
"There exists no law, whether divine or otherwise, that supercedes the Constitution within the context of our legal system."


A SC ruling can, has, and often does supercede the Constitution, since they now "interpret" the law, instead of determining wether or not a law or lower court ruling is unconstitutional.
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StopThief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #75
80. You are absolutely correct. . . .
but they at least pay lip service to the contents of the Constitution when they "amend" it themselves.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
38. Leaving Aside the Constitutional Question for a Moment...
It absolutely boggles my friggin' mind that, in a world with so many other, really important things going on-- and with an administration that has lied us into war, is looting the treasury and causing long-term damage to the nation, the people, and the planet-- this woman "would vote for kerry" except that he's insufficiently determined to keep the gay couple up the street from getting married.

I know, I obviously don't "get" the right wing mindset, but-- not only why do you give a f*ck, but why so much that it's the one deal-breaking issue for you in the election? I mean, really? If it's enshrined in the Constitution (so that future generations can laugh at what closed-minded morons we were, no doubt) that Gays can't get married, is that going to repair our standing in the world? Is it going to erase the federal defecit? Stop global warming? Bring back the folks Dubya has killed in his unnecessary McWar? It's that important that a line in the sand be drawn, so that little old lesbian couples who have been together for 40 years can't say they're "married" just like you and your hetero friends?

I support gay marriage, obviously, but it's not at the top of my list of absolutely most-important-issues that must be addressed right now. Maybe that's cuz I'm not gay, and I don't have to worry about whether or not my wife can visit me in the hospital, or inheret my property, that kind of thing.. But I still think we all, gay and straight, do have more immediate, pressing things to worry about- that almost all would be made way worse by a second Bush term.

I'm astounded that someone on the right is that obsessively hung up and worried about this issue. If it's true that it's the "only thing" keeping her from voting for Kerry, I think she probably needs therapy.
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Blue Wally Donating Member (974 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #38
84. Single Issue Voters
There are voters who are so committed to a single issue (abortion, gay rights, gun control, etc) that they will vote against or abstain from voting for (half a vote against) a particular candidate based on their stance on that key issue. There have always been voters like that and they surface in every election which is why Democrats tap dance around the gay issue and Republican tap dance around the abortion issue. No one can be totally candid without pissing someone off. Even then they risk losing a vote because they are not "rabid" enough.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. Single Issue...
I admit I'd have a hell of a time voting for someone who is politically "pro-life". By that I mean, of course, not someone who is personally opposed to abortion, but someone who has a legislative agenda of criminalizing it.

But issues of personal and reproductive freedom I see as applying to everyone. When the government tries (and succeeds) to put the long arm of the law into our bodies and bedrooms, it affects everyone. At least that's my opinion.
I guess I just don't see why the anti-gay marriage folks give such a big honkin' sh*t if Ed and Fred up the street get married. I mean, obviously I'm preaching to the choir here, and I'm not a big huffy fundamentalist, so such reasoning is probably beyond me, but I just don't see how it affects this woman- personally- enough for it to be her only issue. I mean, really. Take up whittling, or crochet, lady.. Find a hobby or, better yet, Get a life. The sky won't fall if the gays can get married. Jesus.

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Blue Wally Donating Member (974 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #85
90. You see......
Suppose there was a Congress critter who was the main man on the key committee to getting single payer government health insurance, who had a really good plan for heath insurance, and had a lot of sebniority. Suppose also that he was a very religious person who felt abortion was murder and homosexuality was a sin in the eyes of God and man. Do you vote for him or defeat him and send a junior person to congress who would be relegated to the back bench??
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. Well, it takes all kinds of Critters
...To make Farmer Vincent's fritters. But you're the first person I've heard, in a non-right wing extremist context that is, refer to them as "congress critters"...

As far as your hypothetical, for the time being, it's just that. Because, in case you haven't noticed, the folks who make a ton of noise, politically, about being "very religious people" all seem, without fail, to be followers of Supply-Side Jesus. I.E., they almost universally don't give a flyin' Philadelphia f*ck about the poor, much less "universal health care". In fact, for the majority of them, their concern with their "fellow man" seems to end as soon as they're not talking about a microscopic clump of cells. As we speak, the lines are fairly distinct. There aren't too many self proclaimed "very religious" people in government, at least of the fundamentalist, pro-life, fetus fascist variety, who are terribly worried about a SPHC system. If hell freezes over and the situation you describe comes up, then I suppose I could be forced to make that decision. But I live in California, so (with the possible exception of a certain hamheaded Austrian "actor") my governmental representation generally reflects my viewpoints on both health care and abortion.
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Waverley_Hills_Hiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
43. Acttually I heard that too, and have a similar thread going.
But , I do think you are wrong.
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amjsjc Donating Member (203 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
63. Problems with that argument...
The Constitution is the sumpreme law of the United States; therefore it trumps international law within the US. In an instance where the Constitution conflicts with a treaty directly, the Constitution prevails. Both the UDHR and SC interpretations of the current constitution can be overriden by a Constitutional amendment.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
68. Not to pick nits on such lofty arguments in this thread, but
isn't it 3/4 ths of the states which have to pass an amendment for it to take effect? 2/3 of the house, 2/3 of the senate and 3/4 of the states is how I used to teach it I think. Of course I haven't taught for 15 years.
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. yes, yes and yes
you still got it.
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StopThief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #68
82. You are right. . .
the process hasn't changed since you left the arena.
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TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
76. Sorry, but it could be done.....
dumb idea as it is.

The text of the Constitution defines the Law that the Supreme Court interprets. That's where legally enforceable rights come from.

And that is still superior to international conventions.

The Far Right traditionally believes in the inherent right to interpret the text of the Constitution all by themselves, without help from the courts. You are kind-of falling into the same trap.

The law is what the courts say it is.
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StopThief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #76
83. "The law is what the courts say it is."
You are correct. Effectively speaking, the Constitution can be summed up by the number "5".
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