Nazi-Americans. Those are the people who support bush and his

[radwriter0555]

criminal, corrupt regime.

The gopers freak when labeled, but oddly, haven't once claimed they're not.

It has a nice ring to it, don't you think?

Say it out loud, try it out...

Use it!

[Tatiana]

1. I prefer to call them American Radical Terrorists.

Using war and aggression to spread their fundamentalist beliefs.

[radwriter0555]

2. yes, but NAZI AMERICANS really chaps their HIDES...

gets em all riled.

[Swamp Rat]

59. That's what they are, but...

the acronym of the designation you propose is ART.

How about: fucking assholes that wouldn't know art if it bit them on their collective asses?

FATWKAIIBTOTCA

[Raskolnik]

3. I disagree.

I think that label accomplishes nothing except polarizing the electorate even further. In my opinion it is a rather immature tactic and shows a lack of understanding of what the Nazis were.

[seemslikeadream]

4. If you bother to read some past discusssions here

it's undeniable that's what they are. And the truth should be told. I think you are the one that has no idea what Nazis are.

Start with this one

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=199853

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=311500

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=572722

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1730317

[Raskolnik]

8. I have bothered and I do know.

Perhaps you need to read a little more history before you equate our current shitty gov't with National Socialism. The current gov't is undeniably pushing us in a fascist direction and needs to be thrown out on their asses. Some of their more disturbing rhetoric echoes the methods of totalitatarian gov'ts from the beginning of time, not just the Nazis.

I would argue that W's administration is much more similar to Mussolini's Fascism than Hitler's National Socialism. If you disagree, I would be curious to know why, other than the desire for a more emotional label.

Are they bad people that are leading our country in the wrong direction? Yes. Are they Nazis? I don't think so.

[seemslikeadream]

15. The current gov't is undeniably pushing us in a fascist direction ?

Pushing us, pushing us? Do you know that we are living under a coup right now? Do you know there's an unelected resident in the White House?

[Raskolnik]

18. Don't get preachy to the choir.

You'll get no argument from me that the current admin is probably the worst ever. I am simply arguing against hyperbole when the facts do nicely on their own.

[AP]

11. There is no question that what the Republicans are doing is fascism.

Last week there was an article about how FL was criminalizing people who buy drugs from canada on the internet.

Supposedly, we have a free market. You can buy books from Amazon.ca, but when it comes to drugs -- an industry that the Republicans (and Dems to a lesser degree) have coddeled to the point that it is now the highest profit margine industry in the history of America -- not only is it NOT a free market, but FL is willing to put you in jail if you do anything to threaten the iron grip the drug industry has on the public's wallets. And this isn't just any industry. FL citizens need these drugs to live. They don't get them, they die.

That, my friends, is fascism.

That they steal elections and harbor terrorists is just icing on the cake.

[Raskolnik]

14. Um, you do know that Fascism and Naziism aren't synonymous, right?

They get used improperly as equal terms too often, but really aren't always the same thing. If you are a Nazi, you're certainly a type of Fascist, but not all Fascists are Nazis by a long stretch.

There is a really excellent book out right now (Anatomy of Fascism) by Robert Paxton that does the best job I've seen defining and distinguishing the different forms of Fascism.

[AP]

16. Yeah. See post 13.

Did you think I was confused?

You do agree that what I describe is a form of fascism, right?

[Raskolnik]

30. Not with your specific examples.

Actually I would not agree that what you described is really unique to a Fascist state. Its certainly not good, but in my opinion doesn't really get us there to Fascism.

I think the admin's relationship to the energy sector, the faux-militarism of W, and the rhetoric of nationalistic propaganda is more definitive of Fascism right now in our country.

I also am willing to admit that this may be quibbling on my part. Its just the political science minor coming out.

[AP]

31. How can you say that what FL is doing for private drug corps isn't fascsim

?

They are letting people die for the private profit of huge, rich, powerful corporations.

They are criminalizing people who try to save their lives by buying drugs on the open market.

That's definitely fascism.

That's just as bad, if not worse than Enron and Halliburton.

Nationalisty propaganda and militarism isn't the ends of fascism. It's the means. It's how you subvert democracy to bring about a state which puts all the power in the hands of a very few people so that they can guarantee their own increasingly concentrated and growing wealth and power. Ie, they use the fear in order to get away with protecting the profits of drug companies.

[Raskolnik]

35. You could make a case I guess...

...that the melding of drug maker's interests and the State's power are indicative of the kind of Corporatism that Mussolini envisioned. I just think that there are stronger examples out there.

And I would argue that militarism is both a means and an end to classical Fascism. Fascists rely on the base of a dissaffected military class for political support and for physical force when needed. For real Fascists, however, the rule of a martial elite is the goal of their ideology and not just the means to acquire power.

[AP]

37. Power is the ends. Look at what happened in Bolivia-Bechtel riots

http://www.choike.org/nuevo_eng/informes/973.html

The goverment cracked heads for Bechtel's profits for 2-3 days before the army and the police realized that their interests were with the citizens and not with Bechtel.

What does that show you? It shows you that you really need to play up the notion of a martial elite and you really have to have some really cool propaganda to convince soldiers not to empathize with the working class victims of fascism.

Of course, a private army (think, Pinkertons) can serve as a substitute -- if your government is too week (there's no social security), loyalty to a pension-providing corporate army might convince one to crack heads beyond that two-three day threshold.

In any event, that milary cultural still isn't the end. It's the means.

Of course, in FL, it's unlikely that senior citizens are going to take it to the streets teh way the Bolivians did.

[Raskolnik]

42. I think you are mistaken.

You wrote: "In any event, that milary cultural still isn't the end. It's the means."

I disagree. It is both.

[AP]

47. Why have it all? Because it's the wedge that gets people to crack

the heads of their fellow citizens who are in the same socio-economic boat.

It's how you get working class people to crack the heads of other working class people so that the facotries have cheap labor and the retailers have complacent consumers.

[seemslikeadream]

22. I just realized you seem to only come out to defend Bush

from not being Hitler so I will say no more.


For I'm the one who left dark Ireland's shore





Say, who are you that mumbles in the dark?
And who are you that draws your veil across the stars?

I am the poor white, fooled and pushed apart,
I am the Negro bearing slavery's scars.
I am the red man driven from the land,
I am the immigrant clutching the hope I seek--
And finding only the same old stupid plan
Of dog eat dog, of mighty crush the weak.

I am the young man, full of strength and hope,
Tangled in that ancient endless chain
Of profit, power, gain, of grab the land!
Of grab the gold! Of grab the ways of satisfying need!
Of work the men! Of take the pay!
Of owning everything for one's own greed!

I am the farmer, bondsman to the soil.
I am the worker sold to the machine.
I am the Negro, servant to you all.
I am the people, humble, hungry, mean--
Hungry yet today despite the dream.
Beaten yet today--O, Pioneers!
I am the man who never got ahead,
The poorest worker bartered through the years.

Yet I'm the one who dreamt our basic dream
In the Old World while still a serf of kings,
Who dreamt a dream so strong, so brave, so true,
That even yet its mighty daring sings
In every brick and stone, in every furrow turned
That's made America the land it has become.
O, I'm the man who sailed those early seas
In search of what I meant to be my home--
For I'm the one who left dark Ireland's shore,
And Poland's plain, and England's grassy lea,
And torn from Black Africa's strand I came
To build a "homeland of the free."

The free?


Let America be America Again...by Langston Hughes

[Raskolnik]

28. No, that's just when there is the most response to my posts.

I started by posting about the Illinois Senate race, Gore's speech and Bradbury's anger at Moore. Would you care to discuss any of those issues?

Frankly, I'm sick of the dichotomy that people seem to be trapped by here: either you think W's gov't is equal to the Nazis or you don't understand what's REALLY going on. Well I say nuts to that. I'm quite capable of having an understanding of history and the current gov't without resorting to lumping every bad group together. It is innacurate and doesn't serve our purposes in my opinion.

[seemslikeadream]

34. I believe you've left out a few books studing history, try this one

Hitler cut his teeth right here in the US of A

Racism is alive and well. It never went away. It only went underground.



How American corporate philanthropies launched a national campaign of ethnic cleansing in the United States, helped found and fund the Nazi eugenics of Hitler and Mengele — and then created the modern movement of "human genetics."

In the first three decades of the 20th Century, American corporate philanthropy combined with prestigious academic fraud to create the pseudoscience eugenics that institutionalized race politics as national policy. The goal: create a superior, white, Nordic race and obliterate the viability of everyone else.
How? By identifying so-called "defective" family trees and subjecting them to legislated segregation and sterilization programs. The victims: poor people, brown-haired white people, African Americans, immigrants, Indians, Eastern European Jews, the infirm and really anyone classified outside the superior genetic lines drawn up by American raceologists. The main culprits were the Carnegie Institution, the Rockefeller Foundation and the Harriman railroad fortune, in league with America's most respected scientists hailing from such prestigious universities as Harvard, Yale and Princeton, operating out of a complex at Cold Spring Harbor on Long Island. The eugenic network worked in tandem with the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the State Department and numerous state governmental bodies and legislatures throughout the country, and even the U.S. Supreme Court. They were all bent on breeding a eugenically superior race, just as agronomists would breed better strains of corn. The plan was to wipe away the reproductive capability of the weak and inferior.

Ultimately, 60,000 Americans were coercively sterilized — legally and extra-legally. Many never discovered the truth until decades later. Those who actively supported eugenics include America's most progressive figures: Woodrow Wilson, Margaret Sanger and Oliver Wendell Holmes.

American eugenic crusades proliferated into a worldwide campaign, and in the 1920s came to the attention of Adolf Hitler. Under the Nazis, American eugenic principles were applied without restraint, careening out of control into the Reich's infamous genocide. During the pre-War years, American eugenicists openly supported Germany's program. The Rockefeller Foundation financed the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute and the work of its central racial scientists. Once WWII began, Nazi eugenics turned from mass sterilization and euthanasia to genocidal murder. One of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute doctors in the program financed by the Rockefeller Foundation was Josef Mengele who continued his research in Auschwitz, making daily eugenic reports on twins. After the world recoiled from Nazi atrocities, the American eugenics movement — its institutions and leading scientists — renamed and regrouped under the banner of an enlightened science called human genetics.
http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/


The Passing of a Great Race by American eugenicist Madison Grant

Against the mongrelization of the submerged tenth, the eugenicists posed the purity of the Nordic races. Peoples of the north, they held, had forged their superiority over generations through the struggle to survive in severe environments. The weaker members had long been eliminated by natural selection.


This was set out in texts like The Passing of a Great Race by American eugenicist Madison Grant, which Hitler read while imprisoned in the mid '20s for inciting mob violence.


(The German translation was published by Hitler's co-conspirator Julius Lehman; Hitler even wrote Grant a fan letter declaring the book his "Bible.")

http://www.popmatters.com/books/reviews/w/war-against-the-weak.shtml

[Raskolnik]

36. I'm not exactly sure how that addresses my point.

Really unsure.

Of course Eugenics was used as justification for racial genocide, but you are really straying from the topic at hand.

[seemslikeadream]

38. So had you already read the book

or are you a speed reader? If so read this. Talk about your fascists



IBM and the Holocaust is the stunning story of IBM's strategic alliance with Nazi Germany -- beginning in 1933 in the first weeks that Hitler came to power and continuing well into World War II. As the Third Reich embarked upon its plan of conquest and genocide, IBM and its subsidiaries helped create enabling technologies, step-by-step, from the identification and cataloging programs of the 1930s to the selections of the 1940s.
Only after Jews were identified -- a massive and complex task that Hitler wanted done immediately -- could they be targeted for efficient asset confiscation, ghettoization, deportation, enslaved labor, and, ultimately, annihilation. It was a cross-tabulation and organizational challenge so monumental, it called for a computer. Of course, in the 1930s no computer existed.

But IBM's Hollerith punch card technology did exist. Aided by the company's custom-designed and constantly updated Hollerith systems, Hitler was able to automate his persecution of the Jews. Historians have always been amazed at the speed and accuracy with which the Nazis were able to identify and locate European Jewry. Until now, the pieces of this puzzle have never been fully assembled. The fact is, IBM technology was used to organize nearly everything in Germany and then Nazi Europe, from the identification of the Jews in censuses, registrations, and ancestral tracing programs to the running of railroads and organizing of concentration camp slave labor.

IBM and its German subsidiary custom-designed complex solutions, one by one, anticipating the Reich's needs. They did not merely sell the machines and walk away. Instead, IBM leased these machines for high fees and became the sole source of the billions of punch cards Hitler needed.

IBM and the Holocaust takes you through the carefully crafted corporate collusion with the Third Reich, as well as the structured deniability of oral agreements, undated letters, and the Geneva intermediaries -- all undertaken as the newspapers blazed with accounts of persecution and destruction.

Just as compelling is the human drama of one of our century's greatest minds, IBM founder Thomas Watson, who cooperated with the Nazis for the sake of profit.

Only with IBM's technologic assistance was Hitler able to achieve the staggering numbers of the Holocaust. Edwin Black has now uncovered one of the last great mysteries of Germany's war against the Jews -- how did Hitler get the names?

[Raskolnik]

40. Yes I've read it...

And again I'll say that I don't really understand the point you are trying to make. If you make your argument in your own words rather than just cutting and pasting book descriptions, I might catch on quicker.

[seemslikeadream]

45. Oh but Edwin Black is such a great writer

pitty you must have skipped a few pages

[Raskolnik]

48. I'm sorry, but if you can't tell me what the hell your point is...

..I don't have any way of guessing it. Instead of just pointing out books you've read that don't really relate to the discussion, you may want to respond to my earlier argument.

[seemslikeadream]

49. Alright respond to this then

Carl Brennan (78 posts) Thu Jun-24-04 07:37 PM
Original message
Poppy Bush fired Nazis from Repuglican Party (1988)


Dubya is now calling the democrats fascists, but how does he explain Poppy firing these fascists from the Republican party and his close relationshisp to WWII Nazi Yaroslav Stetsko?


http://www.ufomind.com/area51/people/lear/hansson2.html
Regarding Bush's involvement with Nazis, the Village Voice reported on Nov 1, 1988 in "The Real Nazis Behind Every Bush," that "the seven protofascists given the boot by his campaign team two months earlier had been part of the GOP's systematic recruitment of the most extreme rightwing elements in the Eastern European ethnic communities of the United States... The Bush ally with perhaps the closest ties to Hitler's Germany was Yaroslav Stetsko, whose group, the Anti-Bolshevik Bloc of Nations , was a prominent participant in a 1983 White House meeting featuring talks by both President Reagan and the vice president. Bush signed a photograph taken at that meeting 'To the Honorable Yaroslav Stesko, With Best Wishes, George Bush.' ...



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Replies to this thread:


Fired only when it became an embarrassment. Minstrel Boy Jun-24-04 07:53 PM #1


Minstrel Boy (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-24-04 07:53 PM
Response to Original message

1. Fired only when it became an embarrassment.


But Nazis and Nazi sympathizers have made a home for themselves for years in the Republican Party as part of "ethnic outreach committees".

Nazi collaborators involved in George HW Bush's 1988 campaign included:

1.Radi Slavoff, GOP Heritage Council's executive director, and head of "Bulgarians for Bush." Slavoff was a member of a Bulgarian fascist group, and he put together an event in Washington honoring Holocaust denier, Austin App.

2.Florian Galdau, director of GOP outreach efforts among Romanians, and head of "Romanians for Bush." Galdau was once an Iron Guard recruiter, and he defended convicted Nazi war criminal Valerian Trifa.

3.Nicholas Nazarenko, leader of a Cossack GOP ethnic unit. Nazarenko was an ex-Waffen SS officer.

4.Method Balco, GOP activist. Balco organized yearly memorials for a Nazi puppet regime.

5.Walter Melianovich, head of the GOP's Byelorussian unit. Melianovich worked closely with many Nazi groups.

6.Bohdan Fedorak, leader of "Ukrainians for Bush." Fedorak headed a Nazi group involved in anti-Jewish wartime pogroms.

http://alexconstantine.50megs.com/cia_nazis_and.html


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1852357

[Raskolnik]

76. I'm sorry. I'd rather actually respond you YOUR thoughts on the matter...

than just having us paste arguments that others have made. If you don't want to, that's fine.

For the record, I think that W's admin gets us uncomfortably close to the line between us and National Socialism, but there is a HELL of a long way to go before we actually cross that line in this country.

[Slickriddles]

70. Seemslikea dream seeming like a nightmare?

[AntiCoup2K4]

53. Here's the roots of FASCISM

the main culprits were the Carnegie Institution, the Rockefeller Foundation and the Harriman railroad fortune.....

Carnegie = Carnegie-Mellon = Mellon-Scaife

Harrimans = owners of Union bank which was managed and operated by one Prescott Bush. His father in law George Herbert Walker, whom he named his second son after was also involved, as were the brothers Allen & John Foster Dulles.

And the name "Rockefeller" is famous enough in its own right.

Sources of fascism in the 30's with Hitler, sources of fascism in this country today.

If you continue to deny this, you are simply fucking blind.

[Raskolnik]

74. Perhaps you've misunderstood.

I do believe that the country is being taken down a Fascist path by the current gov't. I also have enough sense to realize that Fascism doesn't automatically equal National Socialism.

I think you would be well served to not use those terms interchangeably. They are not synonymous.

And by the way, if you think the Dulles brothers were Nazis, then you really don't have a very good historical grounding. They certainly had connections to people that had connections to Nazis. So did nearly every person in nearly every gov't in the world at the time. Mainstream, respected historians simply do not consider them Nazis.

[Forkboy]

54. 300 odd posts

and much more than half have been spent bitching at DUers.

[Raskolnik]

72. And how many have you spent...

by simply following me around and not actually discussing the issue at hand?

I'd wager quite a few.

If you have something to add to the discussion, I would welcome your input. By the way, just because I don't get on board with the echo chamber you seem to want doesn't mean that I think the people here are wrong all the time. I just disagree from time to time with certain tendencies.

[tom_paine]

17. Bullshit. There are quite a number of legitimate similarities.

Watch:

Similarity #1: The use of demonization/dehumanization to describe your Victims/Enemies

"Everybody says the Liberals love America. Not true. They hate America."
"Everybody says the Jews love Germany. Not true. They hate Germany."
"No matter what the situation is, the Liberals have consistently sided with America's enemies."
"No matter what the situation is, the Jews have consistently sided with Germany's enemies."
"We should physically intimidate Liberals to show that they, too, can be killed. Otherwise they will turn out to be outright traitors."
"We should physically intimidate Jews to show that they, too, can be killed. Otherwise they will turn out to be outright traitors."
"Everything that is wrong with America today can be attributed to Liberals."
"Everything that is wrong with Germany today can be attributed to Jews."
"Liberals aren't real Americans."
"Jews aren't Real Germans."

There's much more. But you made a statement and I countered it by backing myself up with a concrete example. Now what?

These are all either direct quotes or paraphrases of direct quotes. See how easily they translate into Nazi Speak? These things or variants of them can be found across both dials, radio and TV, and in print. Said by Busheviks almost exactly as they were said my the Nazis 70 years ago.

That's just one example. I maintain it is YOU who do not have a full grasp of what Nazism was or what Totalitarianism IS.

If you wait for DIRECT SIMILARITIES to the Nazis, such as overt racism, Death Camps, or Anschluss, you will have a long wait indeed.

Good Marketing Practice (and what are the Busheviks if not Marketers of Tyranny?) dictates that if you wish to reintrouduce and old, discredited product, you'd better repackage it in fancy new colors and for God's sake no connections or connotations that will make people remember THEY ALREADY REJECTED THIS PRODUCT!

Now, go read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich". Pay special attention to the Early Years.

Hitler and Bush were at about the same level of Monstrous Evil at this point in their careers. 1936 and 2004 respectively.

[Raskolnik]

25. I'm sorry but that doesn't cut it for me.

Actually I've read Shirer's book several times, and quite a few others on the subject. They all lead me to conclude that the Nazi/Republican equation is premature at best and disrespectful of Germany's victims at worst. You are correct when you point out that the hateful nature of the current political climate is disturbingly similar to the rise of a totalitarian state. I think we should all be prodded into action by these trends.

Your examples certainly are evidence that this is a bad administration that is taking the country in an even worse direction. They aren't really specific to Nazi ideology though; they are symptomatic of totalitarian regimes throughout the world. That certainly doesn't mean they are good, competent people, but it does mean that we shouldn't throw innacurate terms around for shock value either.

It saddens me no end that about the best thing I can say about my country's current gov't is that is isn't National Socialism.

[tom_paine]

27. We agree to disagree then, sir.

And that's OK.

[Raskolnik]

29. Fair enough.

Godspeed little doodle...

[tom_paine]

52. Don't tell me YOU joined the Junior Campers?

"Are you going to NERD practice today?"
--Homer Simpson

[Raskolnik]

75. He'll be back...

Goddamn. You're a big nerd, aren't you? Don't lie; we can spot our own.

[Octafish]

51. Bush is closer to Hitler than he is Eisenhower.

They were contemporaries, you know.

[JSJ]

67. hard to tell whether...

...you're defending the Nazis or the Neo-cons. The fact is the Adminstration is employing the exact same techniques and tactics as the National Socialists circa 1936.

[Raskolnik]

73. Of course! If I disagree with a historical comparison...

I must be a supporter of the administration! It makes perfect sense, really.

Actually I believe the the current admin has much more in common with Mussolini's Fascist state that National Socialism. I wouldn't call that a ringing endorsement. You may feel differently however.

[proud patriot]

5. My husband calls them Anti - Patriotic Nazis

:evilgrin:

[AP]

12. Patriotism is precisely the diff. between modern Repubs and TRoosevelt

TR was a racist and an imperialist, but he put America first. He was totally patriotic to the idea of America, and he believed in democracy and hated idea of an oligopoly.

The kleptocratic corporatocracy we have today is profoundly unpatriotic. They don't care about democracy or the best interests of a majority of Americans or even of the future vialibity and perpetuation of America as we know it. They just want immense profits today regardless of the consequences.

TR would not be proud of his party.

[Westegg]

6. Actually, I can't call everyone who supports Bush a Nazi...

...And I really don' t see what the point of this kind of invective is. You call them Nazis, they call you Stalinists, Satanists, whatever. Where does this get us? That's not a rhetorical question. Where does this get us?

Hate, hate, hate. JESUS FUCKING CHRIST, ENOUGH ALREADY.

I'm no motherfucking philosopher, but for shit's sake, man, there are a lot of people out there in America who support Bush because they haven't been educated enough by the reality of the situation to know any better. They want some friendly schooling. I don't see how labelling them all "Nazis" helps one bit.

Please explain to me how what I just wrote is wrong.

[tom_paine]

19. There's no end to it. Would you be equally mad at the Jews who hated

the Nazis?

After all, they, too, were embracing hate.

We cannot back down now. We cannot go back to the old days of "please don't hurt me" fear every time a Busheviks recites another Talking Point or Lie (actually, most of their Talking Points are fabrications or half-truths, at best.

[Westegg]

32. Hello? Age of REASON,Tom?

I'm not mad at anyone today. Sister, when I'm mad you'll know it.

What "old days" are you talking about? And you equate the Bush admin. with Hitler, thanks to whom my wife lost 75% of her family through murder? What the fuck, dude? Or are you just prophesying about the future, yeah?

What is it that you WANT? I don't get it. Tell me, and maybe I will.

[tom_paine]

50. Even the original Tom Paine knew there was a time when reason

no longer cuts it and other measures are called for.

I am Jewish, too, Westegg, and while as far as I know I lost no close relatives in Hitler's Camps, I DID lose SEVEN Great-Uncles (who I never met, to be sure, and I was 13 before my Bubby would even speak of them, tearfully, to me...so I certainly empathize with your wife's loss) in Stalin's Gulags.

Yes, I do use rhetoric as a way of repeatedly reminding us what we MIGHT (although I would now upgrade that to 'probably') be facing.

To add urgency and perhaps as an exercise in rhetoric. Though, as I said, I believe that we do face the same kind of people as the Nazis and Soviets in the Busheviks, though "kinder and gentler" because they have to be, given America's traditions and mores.

Never forget that THIS TIME AROUND, it won't look like the Nazis. But, like Fahrenheit 451, Imperial Rome (complete with vestigally useless Imperial Senate...just like US!), or Brave New World...it will be Totalitarianism just the same.

Certainly every day I pray my "middle and worst case scenarios" are wrong wrong wrong.

But I've been right so goddmaned much, and so easily predicted the future months and even years in advance (not so much details as trends and outcomes, as MANY have on DU who understand the predictability of Totalitarians and have begun applying these rules with tremendous success to the Busheviks), that I am both scared and enraged that, based on my success rate from 2001-2004 thus far, there is a damned 90% chance it will come to pass.

Still hoping for the elusive 10% to come through. It would be the happiest plate of crow I ever et!

What do I want? I want the Constitutional System of Checks and Balances as well as the Bill of Rights to be restored to the health and vigor of the post-WWII era. I want a Free Press again.

I do apologize that my rhetoric upset and offended you. How could I know about your wife's family. Again, my apologies. But I will not back off of the Awful Truth.

And let us not forget that Prescott Bush, Dubya*s Granddad, was known as Hitler's Angel and made quite a bit of money off...his Nazi friends.

Don't believe me? Here:

http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=detail&catalogno=NN_Bush_Nazi_Link

Yes, there is a 90% chance that we are dealing with the Nazi/Soviet/Totalitarian mentality here, IMHO.

Even if they are forced to be "kinder and gentler", this time around.

[Spider Jerusalem]

7. GOP-speak translation:

"Patriotic American" = "good German"

[info being]

9. Stop insulting the Germans

[info being]

10. They are, in fact, Fascist. By definition. Nazi? Not yet.

[AP]

13. "Nazis" were a party. Fascism was their ideology.

[stavka]

21. I agree - Nazi's put people back to work.

[AP]

24. Nazis put all the communist labor organizers in concentration camps...

...which drove down labor costs, which really impressed the CEOs of Ford and IBM.

FDR wasn't so impressed.

Today congress simply passes laws that make it impossible to even be a labor organizer.

Maybe if we had some, they'd get thrown in prison.

[Moochy]

26. Fascist - not a useful word?

I heard a speaker on a local pacifica station explaining that the label fascist is not very useful for political discourse. His main point was that fascism was a product of Europe, and too closely associated with the villains of world war II. He also contrasted today's right wing thugs who we all love to label "fascists" as being less concerned with rabid ultra-nationalism like the fascists of the 40s.
He preferred his own phrase "corporatists" or the general political movement of "neo-conservative" and said that fascism had too many connotations of italy in the 40's.

I'm not making his point very well, but hopefully you can see the distinction he was making. Fascism was a 20th century movment that transformed radically, and today's "fascists" are really corporatists and neo-cons.

Does anyone else recall this speaker? think that it might have been on Democracy Now.

[AP]

33. I agree with that. However, I still think it's important for thinking...

...people to realize that today's corporatism is almost precisely the same thing fascists were trying to achieve in the 30s and 40s.

The casual political observer may lose the plot if you call them fascists. But DU'ers and other not so casual observers might be losing the plot if they don't realize that yesterday's fascism is today's corporatism.

[seemslikeadream]

39. I'm a thinkin'

you are sooo correct AP. It's really a good idea to define the word.


yesterday's fascism is today's corporatism

[AP]

41. To borrow from Oldsmobile, "It IS your grandfather's fascism."

Especially if your grandfather was Prescott Bush.

[Frangible]

20. No, they're not members of the Nazi / NSDAP party, but similar

But there are similarities.

According to "Mein Kampf" (My Struggle), Hitler developed his political theories after "carefully observing" the policies of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. He was born as a citizen of the Empire, and believed that ethnic and linguistic diversity had "weakened" it. Further, he saw democracy as a destabilizing force, because it placed power in the hands of ethnic minorities, who he claimed had "incentives" to further "weaken and destabilize" the Empire.

Does this sound familiar to what Republicans say about multiculturalism?

The Nazi rationale was heavily invested in the militarist belief that "great nations" grow from military power, which in turn grows "naturally" from "rational, civilized cultures." Hitler's calls appealed to disgruntled German Nationalists, eager to save face for the failure of World War I, and to salvage the militaristic nationalist mindset of that previous era. After Austria and Germany's defeat of World War I—many Germans still had heartfelt ties to the goal of creating a "unified Germany," and thought that the goal, as well as the use of military force to achieve it, were both correct. For many, the utopian imaginary vision of a unified German nation became a kind of idolatry.

Can we say... PNAC?

Unable to blame their leaders, policies, and ideologies, many placed the blame instead on those who they perceived, in one way or another, to have "sabotaged" the goal of nationalist unification. "Jews and communists" were the ones perceived by many Germans to have been less than fully behind "the plan," and would become the ideal scapegoats for Germans deeply invested in a German Nationalist ideology.

Expanding upon the popular German blame of Jews and Communits, Hitler's Nazi "theory" also claimed that the Aryan race is a "master race" superior to other races. It rationalized this claim with another claim —that a nation 'is the highest creation of a race, and great nations (literally large nations) were the creation of great races. These nations developed cultures that "naturally" grew from races with "natural good health, and aggressive, intelligent, courageous traits." The weakest nations, Hitler said were those of impure or "mongrel" races, because they have divided, quarrelling, and therefore "weak cultures."

Ask a Republican about muslims or liberals. You'll hear the same thing.

According to the Hitlerian vision, it was an obvious mistake to permit or encourage multilingualism and multiculturalism within a nation.

Straight outta the right wing.

Hitler draws parallels between Lebensraum and the American ethnic-cleansing and relocation policies of the Native Americans as key to the success of the US.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Hitler extended his rationalizations into religious doctrine, claiming that those who agreed with and taught his "truths," were "true" or "master" religions, because they would "create mastery" by avoiding comforting lies. Those that preach love and tolerance, "in contravention to the facts," were said to be "slave" or "false" religions.

"God hates fags", anyone? The religious right is the same here.

Key elements of the Nazi ideology

* Nazi 25-point program
* Racism
o Especially anti-Semitism, which eventually culminated in the Holocaust.
o The creation of a Herrenrasse by the Lebensborn (A department in the Third Reich)
o Anti-Slavism
o Belief in the superiority of the German and Aryan/Nordic races.
* Euthanasia and Eugenics with respect to "Racial Hygiene"
* Anti-Marxism, Anti-Communism , Anti-Bolshevism
* The denial of democracy, with as a consequence the ending the existence of political parties, labour unions, and free press.
* Führerprinzip/belief in the leader (Responsibility up the ranks, and authority down the ranks.)
* Strong show of local culture.
* Social Darwinism
* Defence of Blood and Land (German: "Blut und Boden" - represented by the red and black colors in the Nazi flag)
* "Lebensraumpolitik", "Lebensraum im Osten" (The creation of more living space for Germans)
* Related to Fascism


Wow... do I even need to point out the obvious similarities here?

[The Flaming Red Head]

23. David Duke's mailing and donor list

was purchased by the GOP. Can't hide that.

[seemslikeadream]

44. Well ain't that a curious fact The Flaming Red Head

Thanks and welcome my Ushag veg ruy!

[The Flaming Red Head]

46. They bought them in Louisiana but the list have donors from everywhere

It was back during his first campaign. Bush is a Nazi who supports and encourages racism and division in our country.

[mopaul]

43. the GNP...Grand Nazi Party,

i call a nazi a nazi. if you torture prisoners of war, you're a nazi. if you approved it legally, you're a nazi. if you invade a nation a overthrow it and rebuild it killing tens of thousands of innocents in the process, you're a nazi. if you commit genocide against a whole religious group, you're a nazi.

and if you do this as an american, you're a goddamned nazi american motherfucker.

[donhakman]

56. Last Christmas

I began calling bloodthristy conservatives, American Nazis with impunity.
It was an assesment that I fought with long and hard and had to be honest about it.

As a result I was banned from a forum which was basicly my blog for the last 7 years.

Yes they hate to be called Nazis more than anything else. Thats why there are now Right wing Bush Cnedy ads now calling Democrats wild eyed Nazis.

[Octafish]

55. They're not Americans if they're NAZIs.

They would be -- and are -- TRAITORS.

Gee. Guess what nation's "free press" forgot to spread this news?

Bush-Nazi Link Confirmed

Documents in National Archives prove George Bush's grandfather traded with Nazis -- even after Pearl Harbor

by John Buchanan

WASHINGTON -- After 60 years of inattention and even denial by the U.S. media, newly-uncovered government documents in The National Archives and Library of Congress reveal that Prescott Bush, the grandfather of President George W. Bush, served as a business partner of and U.S. banking operative for the financial architect of the Nazi war machine from 1926 until 1942, when Congress took aggressive action against Bush and his "enemy national" partners.

The documents also show that Bush and his colleagues, according to reports from the U.S. Department of the Treasury, tried to conceal their financial alliance with German industrialist Fritz Thyssen, a steel and coal baron who, beginning in the mid-1920s, personally funded Adolf Hitler's rise to power by the subversion of democratic principle and German law.

Furthermore, the declassified records demonstrate that Bush and his associates, who included E. Roland Harriman, younger brother of American icon W. Averell Harriman, and George Herbert Walker, President Bush's maternal great-grandfather, continued their dealings with the German industrial tycoon for nearly a year after the U.S. entered the war.

SNIP...

The Herald-Tribune article did not identify Bush or Harriman as executives of UBC, or Brown Brothers Harriman, in which they were partners, as UBC's private banker. A confidential FBI memo from that period suggested, without naming the Bush and Harriman families, that politically prominent individuals were about to come under official U.S. government scrutiny as Hitler's plunder of Europe continued unabated.

CONTINUED...

http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=detail&catalogno=NN_Bush_Nazi_Link

[seemslikeadream]

57. Senator Harry Truman

when investigating the national defense program, as committee chairman told newsmen before Farish testified: "I think this approaches treason. Farish began breaking apart at these hearings. He shouted his "indignation" at the senators, and claimed he was not "disloyal."After the March-April hearings ended, more dirt came gushing out of the Justice Department and the Congress on Farish and Standard Oil. Farish had deceived the US Navy to prevent the Navy from acquiring certain patents, while supplying them to the Nazi war machine; meanwhile he was supplying gasoline and tetraethyl lead to Germany's submarines and air force.
Communications between Standard and I.G. Farben from the outbreak of World War II were released to the Senate, showing that tFarish's organization had arranged to deceive the U.S. government into passing over Nazi-owned assets: They would nominally buy I.G.'s share in certain patents because "in the event of war between ourselves and Germany .. .it would certainly be very undesirable to have this 20 percent Standard-I.G pass to an alien property custodian of the U.S. who might sell it to an unfriendly interest.
In August, Farish was brought back for more testimony. He was now frequently accused of lying. Farish was crushed under the intense, public grilling; he became morose, ashen. While Prescott Bush escaped publicity when the government seized his Nazi banking organization in October, Farish had been nailed. He collapsed and died of a heart attack on November 29, 1942.
The Farish family was devastated by the exposure. Son William Stamps Farish, Jr., a lieutenant in the Army Air Force, was humiliated by the public knowledge that his father was fueling the enemy's aircraft; he died in a training accident in Texas six months later. With this double death the fortune comprising much of Standard Oil's profits from Texas and Nazi Germany was now to be settled upon the little four-year-old grandson, William...overlapping the intelligence and financial worlds-The Bush Farish axis started George Bush's career.

A Senate investigating committee under Senator (later US President Harry Truman of Missouri had called Arnold to testify at hearings on corporations' collaboration with the Nazi. The Senators expressed outrage at the cynical way Farish was continuing an alliance with the Hitler regime that begun back in 1933, when Farish became chief of Jersey Standard. Didn't he know there was a war on?
http://lists.village.virginia.edu/listservs/spoons/woodco-greens.archi...

lots of interesting info there



When George Bush was elected vice president in 1980, Texas mystery man William Stamps Farish III took over management of all of George Bush's personal wealth in a "blind trust." Known as one of the richest men in Texas, Will Farish keeps his business affairs under the most intense secrecy. Only the source of his immense wealth is known, not its employment. Note #3 Will Farish has long been Bush's closest friend and confidante….
President Bush can count on Farish not to betray the violent secrets surrounding the Bush family money. For Farish's own family fortune was made in the same Hitler project, in a nightmarish partnership with George Bush's father.

On March 25, 1942, U.S. Assistant Attorney General Thurman Arnold announced that William Stamps Farish (grandfather of the President's money manager) had pleaded "no contest" to charges of criminal conspiracy with the Nazis. Farish was the principal manager of a worldwide cartel between Standard Oil Co. of New Jersey and the I.G. Farben concern. The merged enterprise had opened the Auschwitz slave labor camp on June 14, 1940, to produce artificial rubber and gasoline...

---wasn't Thyssens, Prescott's Dutch biz partner, part of the I.G. Farben/Austwitz deal?

interesting, too, that Farish's daughter married one of the Harrimans, the large shareholder in Union Bank, from which Prescott was also enriched, though not to the same degree as Harriman.

[seemslikeadream]

60. US Ambassador to England Inherited "Auschwitz" money (Farish)

US Ambassador to England Inherited "Auschwitz" money (Farish)
If you do not know about William Farish III, there is a reason. The man is VERY private and most Americans have never heard of him. Yet, his power is immense and his fortunes from his grandfather are tied directly to the bushes, as well as the Nazi party.

Unfortunately, only the print edition of the NYT shows his picture standing in the middle of GWB and Prince Charles as an introducer. This is the NYT article related to this most recent incident...

Lost in all the white ties and tails, cavalry parades and antiwar protests of President Bush's trip to London last week was a reticent multimillionaire American racehorse breeder, William S. Farish. His day job is the United States ambassador to Britain, and his credentials include very close ties to the Bush family.

How close? Well, not only did Mr. Farish manage the elder George Bush's blind trusts when he became vice president, but he gave him his springer spaniel, Millie, and Mr. Farish later had her mated at his lush Kentucky horse farm. Among the puppies was Spot, the 13-year-old dog of the current President Bush.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/24/politics/24LETT.html

More importantly, however, is background history of the Farish family. As Prescott Bush escaped penalty for his treason, William Farish, Sr. did not. Here is some background info, but a thorough reading of these Nazi sympathizers is mandatory to understanding what we are up against.

When George Bush was elected Vice President in 1980, Texas mystery man William (`` Will '') Stamps Farish III took over management of all of George Bush's personal wealth in a `` blind trust. '' Known as one of the richest men in Texas, Will Farish keeps his business affairs under the most intense secrecy. Only the source of his immense wealth is known, not its employment.@s3

Will Farish has long been Bush's closest friend and confidante. He is also the unique private host to Britain's Queen Elizabeth II: Farish owns and boards the studs which mate with the Queen's mares. That is her public rationale when she comes to America and stays in Farish's house. It is a vital link in the mind of our Anglophile President.

President Bush can count on Will Farish not to betray the violent secrets surrounding the Bush family money. For Farish's own family fortune was made in the same Hitler project, in a nightmarish partnership with George Bush's father.

Indeed, Farish's (the grandfather), activities in supplying patents to the Nazis while withholding the same patents from US govt, were described by Senator Truman as, `` I think this approaches treason. ''@s1@s7
http://www.tarpley.net/bush3.htm

And the rest is history...

While Prescott Bush escaped publicity when the government seized his Nazi banking organization in October, Farish had been nailed. He collapsed and died of a heart attack on Nov. 29, 1942.

The Farish family was devastated by the exposure. Son William Stamps Farish, Jr., a lieutenant in the Army Air Force, was humiliated by the public knowledge that his father was fueling the enemy's aircraft; he died in a training accident in Texas six months later.@s2@s0

With this double death, the fortune comprising much of Standard Oil's profits from Texas and Nazi Germany was now to be settled upon the little four-year-old grandson, William (`` Will '') Stamps Farish III. Will Farish grew up a recluse, the most secretive multi-millionaire in Texas, with investments of `` that money '' in a multitude of foreign countries, and a host of exotic contacts overlapping the intelligence and financial worlds--particularly in Britain.

http://www.tarpley.net/bush3.htm

JailBush

I posted something about this just a few days ago.

I wasn't familiar with the name Farish until I happened to connect an article in The Guardian with the Unauthorized Biography reference you cited above.

Below is an annotated copy of my post.

* * * * * * * * * *

One of several articles in The Guardian that caught my attention during George W. Bush's historic state visit was "Don't mention the war - stick to horsess" http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1089033,00.html

Political editor Michael White wrote, "It is a pretty good bet that the one safe topic of conversation between President George Bush and his immediate neighbours beneath Buckingham Palace's chandeliers will have been horses.

"As guest of honour at last night's state banquet, the president was placed on the right of the Queen, his host and fellow-rancher. That put him within easy chatting distance of the equestrian Princess Anne and the horsey Duke of Edinburgh, who shared the task of looking after Laura Bush with the Prince of Wales, a retired polo player and pro-Palestinian.

"Best to stick to horses then. Among other guests, the scope for pratfalls was barely less extensive. Palace officials placed the golfing Prince Andrew between the non-golfing David Blunkett and the wife of the low-profile US ambassador, William Farish."

It sounds like the author wasn't aware of the Farish connection. His article lists one of the guests as William Farish, US ambassador to London.

Is this the same Farish mentioned in "The Unauthorized Biography of George Bush"?:

http://www.govsux.com/chapter3.htm

"When George Bush was elected Vice President in 1980, Texas mystery man William (`` Will '') Stamps Farish III took over management of all of George Bush's personal wealth in a `` blind trust. '' Known as one of the richest men in Texas, Will Farish keeps his business affairs under the most intense secrecy. Only the source of his immense wealth is known, not its employment.@s3

"Will Farish has long been Bush's closest friend and confidante. He is also the unique private host to Britain's Queen Elizabeth II: Farish owns and boards the studs which mate with the Queen's mares. That is her public rationale when she comes to America and stays in Farish's house. It is a vital link in the mind of our Anglophile President."


According to an article at http://www.tabletnewspaper.com/old%20tablet/vol1iss1/grassy11.htm, another William Farish was an oil giant and Nazi business partner.

I haven't yet had time to really get a handle on the Farishes, but it sounds like there may be quite a story here. That is, the Farishes may have been discussed in some depth in books and perhaps even on this forum, but it sounds like even The Guardian missed a big story a couple days ago!

* * * * * * * * * *

I really was surprised that The Guardian missed a scoop like this. You'd think their political columnists would be up to date on the Bush clan!


Unknown Known

Yes, this is the same Farish
and thank you for your post. The Farish family has been tight with the bushes going back to Prescott.

And where is the Jewish community? Why are they not screaming that our present US Ambassador to England inherited his money from the bones of their ancestors?

JailBush

Thoroughbred Times

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/newsview.asp?recno=40044&s ...

Posted: 11/18/2003 8:20:00 PM ET

Farish on hand to introduce President Bush to Prince Charles

Prominent owner and breeder William S. Farish introduced President George Bush and first lady Laura Bush to Prince Charles after Air Force One arrived at London’s Heathrow Airport on Tuesday.

Farish, the United States Ambassador to Great Britain and Northern Ireland, played a key role in arranging President Bush’s trip, according to the Washington Post.

Close ties between Queen Elizabeth II and Farish are, in part, attributed to their shared interest in the racing industry, the Post reports. The queen sends mares to Farish’s Lane’s End near Versailles, Kentucky, and she has visited the farm.

Zan_of_Texas

more
Farish is married to Sarah, originally of Wilmington, Delaware.
Starroute mentioned this at DU on 10-17:
Farish's grandson, William Stamps Farish III, is currently married to a DuPont heiress, great-niece of the DuPonts who tried to overthrow FDR in 1934.

Capn Sunshine

yes, the little mentioned FDR putsch
planned Army takeover; backed by the DuPonts and House of Morgan.
Small world, eh?
great hitorical article on the coup:
http://www.webcom.com/ctka/pr399-fdr.html

Minstrel Boy

good Lord, the DuPonts too?
I used to discount these familial ties, but I think now that's a strategic mistake. When the same names keep coming back, they obviously mean a great deal.



Unknown Known

Please note - William Farish, Jr. died in a "training accident"
The Farish family was devastated by the exposure. Son William Stamps Farish, Jr., a lieutenant in the Army Air Force, was humiliated by the public knowledge that his father was fueling the enemy's aircraft; he died in a training accident in Texas six months later.@s2@s0



starroute

More on Farish

I did some investigation of his family several months ago and found a number of very interesting connections.

Farish's wife is the former Sarah Sharp, daughter of Bayard Sharp (1913-2002), a close friend of George H.W. and Barbara Bush. Bayard's mother was Isabella Mathieu du Pont, whose three brothers successively headed E.I. du Pont de Nemours and Company between 1915 and 1940. They were admirers of Hitler, funded multiple fascist organizations in the US, and were behind the plot to overthrow FDR in 1934.

Farish's mother was Mary Wood, daughter of General Robert E. Wood, who was chairman of the isolationist America First Committee in 1940 and became a prominent figure in the extreme right after World War II. Wood corresponded extensively with Senator Joseph McCarthy and supported many right-wing groups, particularly in Texas. He was also in touch with a group of revisionist historians who were pushing the notion that Roosevelt had sold out to the Soviet Union and that the State Department had deliberately handed China over to the communists.

Farish's aunt, Martha Botts Farish, was married to Edward Harriman Gerry, nephew of Averell Harriman and brother of Elbridge Gerry, who was a partner in Brown Brothers Harriman & Company. That marriage seems to have been a major factor in bringing the Farishes and the Bushes together, although they were already acquainted through the oil industry.

Farish's grandmother, the wife of William Stamps Farish, Sr., was Libbie Botts Rice. That's Botts as in the lawfirm of Baker and Botts, of which her grandfather was a co-founder, and Rice as in Rice University, which in the century since its founding has persistently been tied in with Houston oil interests. (In recent years, Rice was closely entangled with Enron.)

Libbie's sister, Ella Botts Rice, was briefly married to Howard Hughes in the 1920's, just after he had inherited the rights to a drill bit which his father had invented and which was essential to the oil industry. While Hughes was a minor, his assets were controlled by the Rice Board of Directors.
And, for what it's worth, the elder Farish's great-grandmother was the sister of Confederate President Jefferson Davis.
Altogether, a very strange and powerful family.



Unknown Known

Great research! Thanks for this and it explains much...
Especially the Harriman connection and the Botts connection which is the connection to James Baker III. I've often wondered if he isn't related to the bushes in a distant way.
Mind you, and this is a bit off-subject, but not, that these ancestors were all eugenicists, thus the Hitler-connection.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic...

[seemslikeadream]

63. “conclude my tenure here and turn my attention to my family and business

Snip from The Times

US Ambassador relinquishes his post to breed racehorses
By Richard Beeston, Diplomatic Editor

THE race was on last night for a highly coveted post in the American diplomatic service, after William Farish, the US Ambassador to Britain, announced that he was stepping down after less than three years in the job.

In an article in The Times today, the envoy says that he decided to “conclude my tenure here and turn my attention to my family and business”.

Mr Farish, a businessman with close ties to the Bush family and a personal friend of the Queen, is expected to return to Kentucky in July where he is a leading racehorse breeder.

More:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,175-1150560,00.html

[Octafish]

65. Appears the fellah's a BFEE cash cow.

From Harvard to Enron

(Part 6)
by LINDA MINOR

EXCERPT...

In 1980, when George H.W. Bush was elected vice president, he placed his father's family inheritance in a blind trust.
The trust was managed by his old friend and quail hunting partner, William "Stamps" Farish III.

Bush's choice of Farish to manage the family wealth is quite revealing in that it demonstrates that the former president might know exactly where some of his inheritance originated.

Farish's grandfather, William Farish Sr., on March 25th, 1942, pleaded "no contest" to conspiring with Nazi Germany while president of Standard Oil in New Jersey. He was described by Senator Harry Truman in public of approaching "treason" for profiting off the Nazi war machine. Standard Oil, invested millions in IG Farben, which opened a gasoline factory within Auschwitz in 1940.

SOURCE:

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=105&contentid=525&page=2

Of course, some fleas are bigger than others.

(11/22) Home Cookin'

William S. Farish's PATE MAISON made it two in a row since returning back home to New York, beating a talented an state-bred allowance field of two year-old fillies. Ridden once again by jockey Edgar Prado, the two year-old half-sister to multiple graded-stakes winner Biogio's Rose, stalked the early pace before moving into contention approaching the far turn of the one mile event. Moving past the early leaders, Prado mildly urged his filly for some run at the top of the stretch, before wrapping up and cruised home as much the best.



Bred by Alfred and Joseph Nastasi, Pate Maison is by Polish Numbers, out of the Barachois mare, Fois Gras.

SOURCE:

http://www.nybreds.com/racing/bb_0011.html



What an interesting anniversary. Hoover went to the the track on November 23, 1963.

[seemslikeadream]

66. What the hell is all this race horse breeding stuff!

Remember Mrs. Brach?


The horse business can get so nasty.

The investigation into the disappearance of candy empire heiress Helen Brach was truly like opening a box of expensive chocolates investigators had no idea what they were getting until they took a bite. When they did, a high-profile missing person's case grew into a complex plot involving top-flight show horses, con artists, arson, insurance fraud, 25-year-old murders and the possibility of an animal-loving victim who literally went to the dogs.

Helen Voorhees Brach
Brach disappeared in 1977 - her body has never been found although she was declared dead in 1984 - but indictments and trials stirred up by revelations unearthed in the investigation are still being filed. Though one man is in prison for life for soliciting her murder, authorities are no closer today to answering the question: What happened to Helen Brach?

Police, private investigators and journalists have all weighed in with theories, and filmmaker Oliver Stone has been talking about doing a movie about Brach for some time now. There is no shortage of suspects with motives that all center on the same thing. Greed. When she disappeared, Brach was worth more than $20 million and that much money can make murder look like a very sweet deal indeed.

Greed clearly has a place in the strange case of Helen Brach. Helen had money and everyone around her wanted some of it. She was generous to a fault, although some said she cared more for animals than people. Surrounded by people always with their hand out, who could blame her? All Helen wanted was to indulge her lifelong dream of owning horses. What she got was much more sinister.

With so many twists and subplots to explore, people will be talking about the disappearance of Helen Brach for a long, long time. It is likely, however that the tragic disappearance of the former hat-check girl who fell in love with the candy magnate will remain a classic unsolved crime.

more
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/celebrity/helen_brach/in...

I'm sure she not involved in these guys but one should never say never

[seemslikeadream]

68. Prince Fahd Salman and Prince Ahmed Salman died unexpectedly

from emad

Saudi horseracing connection: Farish involved in syndicates


with the late Prince Fahd Salman and Prince Ahmed Salman (nephews of King Fahd bin Abdel-Aziz al-Saud) who both died unexpectedly in 2001 and 2002 respectively: Salman accused of terrorism and some conspiracy specialists reckon he was murdered. His father is Governor of Riyadh and a full brother to King Fahd.


Official Obit:


07/25/2001
Prince Fahd bin Salman bin Abdulaziz dies in Riyadh

The Royal Court today announced the death of His Royal Highness Prince Fahd bin Salman bin Abdulaziz of heart failure. He was 46. Prince Fahd is the son of the Governor of Riyadh Province Prince Salman bin Abdulaziz. Funeral prayers will be held at the Turki bin Abdullah Mosque in Riyadh following regular afternoon prayer today. Prince Salman will receive condolences at his palace at Al-Maazar district in Riyadh.

After graduating from King Saud University in Riyadh, Prince Fahd studied business administration in the United States. On his return to the Kingdom, he joined the Ministry of Interior, and served as Deputy Governor of the Eastern Province from 1406-1412 H <1986 to 1991>. From then until his death he was in private business, and also served as Secretary-General of the charitable association for kidney failure patients.

from:
http://www.saudiembassy.net/2001News/News/OthDetail.asp?cIndex=3106



Salman with his brothers owned Thoroughbred Racing Corporation and along with Farish chummy Paul Mellon (also RIP) invested in Far East breeding syndicates, selling mostly to Japan, Argentina and Canada.


Fahd Salman murdered? Check this:

Posted - 06/07/2004 : 6:28:18 PM
There was a lot of news about Prince Salman (Thoroughbred Corporation) being involved in terrorism---one report says one of Al Qaeda gave up two memorized phone numbers, and both were for cell phones belonging to the Prince. He was only 45, and the news reports says he died of a heart attack, even though he did not have a history of this kind. Anybody around the tracks hear anything about this, or if this is being covered up?

Jo


USA
70 Posts
Posted - 06/07/2004 : 6:42:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe the worst of bin Salman's offenses was passively allowing the papers he owned to be sympathetic to anti-americanism, nothing more. No one has produced any documents of substance linking him to terrorism, he has a brother who is currently working hard to clear bin Salman's name.

He was a wealthy Saudi...thus, a blanket of suspicion was bound to fall. If it comes out from a reliable that he had a connection beyond what I have mentioned, I'll gladly admit I was wrong.


wanda


USA
1599 Posts
Posted - 06/07/2004 : 7:50:38 PM

More:
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3680��

Prince Ahmed Salman, Fahd's younger brother, also died unexpectedly early in 2002:

Ahmed's Obit:

Prince Ahmed bin Salman 1958 - 2002


Date: 07/22/02

On Monday, July 22, 2002, the racing world was stunned by the announcement of the death of 43-year-old Prince Ahmed bin Salman bin Abdulaziz, the principal partner of the Thoroughbred Corporation, from a heart attack. His green and white striped silks are well-recognized worldwide, most recently in his four consecutive Triple Crown victories with Point Given taking the Preakness and Belmont last year and War Emblem capturing the Kentucky Derby and Preakness this year.

The nephew of Saudi Arabia's King Fahd was born on November 17, 1958. After studying in both the military and the University of California at Irvine he went into business, eventually becoming chairman of Saudi Arabia's Research and Marketing Group, a publishing company with offices in Riyadh and Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, and also in London, England.

With his college friend Richard Mulhall as trainer, he got into the racing business initially as Universal Stable. In 1994 when the operation resurfaced as The Thoroughbred Corporation, with Mulhall retiring as a trainer and taking on the job of racing manager. Mulhall is currently the president of the operation.

Prince Ahmed celebrates War Emblem's win in the Preakness
The pair would go on to racing greatness, both with sales purchases and homebreds. The Thoroughbred Corp.'s roster reads like a who's who of racing in the past decade, with such greats as Sharp Cat, Lear Fan, Jewel Princess, Windsharp, Military, Royal Anthem, Anees, Officer, Habibti, Spain, 2001 Horse of the Year Point Given, and this year's dual classic winner War Emblem. The Prince also had success in Europe, starting with his very first horse, Hays, who won the Mill Reef Stakes and Oath who won the Epsom Derby. Currently Thoroughbred Corp. has approximately 60 horses in training mostly stabled with Bob Baffert, D. Wayne Lukas, and John Shireffs, along with 45 broodmares, mostly at Mill Ridge Farm in Lexington.

His name will always be associated with War Emblem, his one Kentucky Derby winner, which he quipped was "one of the best investments I ever made in my life, besides buying oil in Saudi Arabia," after he won the Preakness. He bought a 90% share in the colt just three weeks before the Derby, and with the win, became the first Arab owner to capture the Roses.

Bob Baffert, who trained Point Given and War Emblem, said, "When you go through a Triple Crown together you get really close. He was like family. His passion for horses was incredible -- he lived and breathed them." Point Given's regular rider Gary Stevens said, "We were very close friends outside of racing. He was a guy who loved to laugh and loved a good time. He had major flair and loved the game and was continuing to grow in the sport. At 43, everybody was looking forward to him having a long, long career in the industry and he was definitely a boost to thoroughbred racing." Churchill Downs president Tom Meeker said, "The horses he campaigned proved themselves champions on and off the track, and their star power generated much positive attention for our sport. The prince's commitment to racing was unwavering, and his infectious enthusiasm for the game will be greatly missed. Prince Salman held the Kentucky Derby in the highest esteem -- he loved and appreciated the Derby's legacy as much as we do. Churchill Downs -- and all of racing -- has lost a remarkable horsemen and true fan." He is survived by his wife Princess Lamia, four daughters, and one son.

Prince Ahmed with Spain after she won the Louisville Breeders' Cup Handicap to become the richest mare in history.
War Emblem winning the Kentucky Derby.

Point Given won the Preakness, Belmont, Haskell, and Travers but didn't run well in the Kentucky Derby.
Prince Ahmed's first Breeders' Cup winner, Jewel Princess in the 1996 Distaff.

Sharp Cat, who Prince Ahmed referred to as his other daughter, won over $2 million in her career.
Anees was an upset winner of the Breeders' Cup Juvenile for Prince Ahmed.

Habibti was a top 2-year-old filly and has had some success as a 3-year-old this year, finishing second in the Kentucky Oaks.
Officer was another brilliant 2-year-old trained by Bob Baffert for Prince Ahmed.

More about Prince Ahmed:

Bio with stats from NTRA
Mill Ridge Farm - where most of his broodmares were kept
Thoroughbred Corporation - his racing syndicate

Obit from the Blood Horse
Profile from the Blood Horse
Obit from Thoroughbred Times
Obit from ESPN
Reactions to his death from ESPN
LA Times story by Bill Christine, "What He Couldn't Buy Was Americans' Love"
Obit from Modbee.com
AP wire story obit from Las Vegas Sun
Obit from ProLog
Obit from Newsday
All photos ©2002 Cindy Pierson Dulay

Back to Horse-Races.Net main page

From:
http://www.horse-races.net/library/aa072202.htm

Also of interest:

"Understanding the Bormann organization is essential to comprehending the concept of “the Underground Reich.”) A brutal irony about the name of a prize racehorse gives this program its title. Owned by Prince Ahmed—one of the members of the Saudi royal family allowed to leave the U.S. right after the 9/11 attacks without being adequately interrogated—War Emblem won two thirds of horse racing’s famed Triple Crown. In the spring of 2002, War Emblem won the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness Stakes, and Mr. Emory noted at the time that the horse’s name was ironic in light of documented support by wealthy Saudis for Al Qaeda. This program highlights allegations that Prince Ahmed was one of three members of the Saudi royal family who functioned as liaison personnel to Al Qaeda. This information was allegedly disclosed during the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah—a key Bin Laden aide.

Program Highlights Include: The precipitous deaths of all three members of the Saudi Royal family (named by Zubaydah) over the space of eight days in 2002; the suspicious air crash that took the life of the head of the Pakistani air force—also alleged by Abu Zubaydah to be in the pay of Bin Laden; the unusual interrogation methods allegedly employed by the CIA to obtain the information provided by Abu Zubaydah."

and

"2. Among the other evacuees was Prince Ahmad bin Salman bin Abdul Aziz—the owner of War Emblem, the horse that won two thirds of horseracing’s triple crown in 2002. (Obviously, that horse is the subject of the program’s title.) “There is nothing to connect the two Alhazmis directly. But the hijacker Nawaf had already been connected in press stories to the Saudi royal family, as the recipient of funds coming indirectly from the wife of Prince Bandar, the Saudi Ambassador to the United States. ‘Scandal struck again in November 2002 and touched Princess Haifa al-Faisal, wife of Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the longtime Saudi ambassador to Washington (and nephew of Prince Nayef). It was learned that money had gone from her purse to the pockets of two 9/11 hijackers, Khalid al-Midhar and Nawaf Alhazmi, by way of two Saudi intermediaries, Omar al-Bayoumi and Osama Bassnan (Stephen Schwartz, Weekly Standard, 8/12/03). On the flight was the noted horse breeder Prince Ahmad bin Salman bin Abdul Aziz, the owner of the Kentucky Derby winner War Emblem. After returning to Saudi Arabia, he died suddenly of a heart attack at the age of 43, his cousin, Prince Sultan bin Faisal bin Turki bin Abdullah, aged 41, was killed in a car accident the next day, on his way to Prince Ahmad’s funeral. . . .” (Idem.)"

and:


8. More about Zubaydah’s fingering of Prince Ahmed (War Emblem’s owner) and his role as contact person for Al Qaeda on behalf of the royal family: “The name Zubaydah gave came as a complete surprise to the CIA. It was Prince Ahmed bin Salman bin Abdul Aziz, the owner of many legendary racehorses and one of the most westernized members of the royal family. On September 16, 2001, Prince Ahmed, of course, had boarded the flight in Lexington as part of the evacuation plan approved by the Bush White House.” (Idem.)

9. “Prince Ahmed was well known not just in Saudi Arabia, but also in publishing circles in London and horse-racing circles in Kentucky. He was such an unlikely name that the interrogators immediately assumed Zubaydah was lying to buy time. . . .The interrogators then keep their prisoner on a ‘bare minimum’ of pain medication and interrupted his sleep with bright lights for hour after hour before restarting the Sodium Pentothal drip.” (Ibid.; pp. 265-266.)

and:

13. After discussing Prince Ahmed’s purchase of War Emblem, the horse’s success in the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness, and the awkward presence at the Derby of New York firefighters who had lost many of their co-workers on 9/11, the program highlights Prince Ahmed’s curious absence from the U.S. when War Emblem was running in the Belmont Stakes. Prince Ahmed then died on 7/22/2002, allegedly of a heart attack. “ . . . But on June 8, Prince Ahmed did not even show up at the Belmont Stakes, the third part of the Triple Crown. ‘I’m disappointed the prince wasn’t here,’ said trainer Bob Baffeert. Ahmed was said to be tending to family obligations in Riyadh. An associate said that he did not know the nature of the obligations. In any case, War Emblem stumbled as he came out of the starting gate and came in eighth. About six weeks later, on July 22, Prince Ahmed was dead. News reports said the forty-three-year-old nephew of King Fahd had died in his sleep due to a heart attack.” (Ibid.; p. 268.)

14. Within eight days of Ahmed’s death, the two other members of the royal family alleged by Zubaydah to have served as liaison agents between Al Qaeda and the house of Saud had died under odd circumstances. “ . . . Ahmed was not the only person named by Zubaydah to suffer ill. The next day, July 23, Ahmed’s cousin, Prince Sultan bin Faisal bin Turki al-Saud, was killed in a one-car crash while en route to Ahmed’s funeral. A week later, on July 30, Prince Fahd bin Turki bin Saud al-Kabir, a third member of the royal family who had been named by Zubaydah, was found in the desert having apparently died of thirst.” (Ibid.; pp. 268-269.)


from:

http://www.spitfirelist.com/f460.html


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=632508

[Octafish]

64. Yeh. The DuPonts wanted FDR 'stifled.'

The leading corporatists of the day thought they could weather the Depression just fine without the New Deal. After all, who would have to pay for it. So they tried to enlist the Marine General Smedley Butler, an American hero who won two Medals of Honor and authored "War Is A Racket":


Facing the Corporate Roots of American Fascism

April 2004, Press for Conversion! (Issue #53). Published by the Coalition to Oppose the Arms Trade (COAT) This 54-page magazine is available for $5. (See details below.) 
 
In the early 1930s, some of America's wealthiest industrialists and bankers plotted to overthrow the government of President Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR) and replace it with a fascist dictatorship. Thanks to one of the greatest whistleblowers of all time, we know the names of the prominent Wall Street financiers and politicians (both Democrat and Republican) who organized and backed this plot. The whistleblower who exposed the fascist plot was a U.S. military hero named Major- General Smedley Darlington Butler. For 33 years, Butler -- a two-time recipient of the prestigious U.S. Medal of Honor -- had fought with the Marines.  He helped invade numerous countries, subdued native revolts, oversaw fraudulent elections and forced regime changes on nations to bring them in line with U.S. economic interests. (Sound familiar?) 
 
All this, Butler later said, was done in order to protect America's foreign investments. In 1935, describing himself as a "racketeer for capitalism," Butler said, "I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was operate his racket in three city districts. We Marines operated on three continents" (Common Sense magazine, Nov. 1935). In 1933, the year Hitler took control of Germany, some of Wall Street's top financiers sent representatives to recruit the recently-retired General Butler into a fascist coup d'etat to overthrow FDR. 
 
Butler played along in order to find out who was behind the scheme and then, in 1934, he testified under oath before the MacCormack-Dickstein House Committee that was examining Nazi propaganda in the United States. Butler named names and exposed the key fascist plotters. He also identified a high- powered, business organization, the American Liberty League, as the "super-organization" behind the plan for an American coup. Thanks to General Butler, this Wall Street plan to subvert U.S. democracy was thwarted. However, none of the multi-millionaire behind the plot were ever questioned by legal authorities, let alone charged or put on trial for treason. In fact, they continued to work behind the scenes, through the American Liberty League, to sabotage FDR's "New Deal" administration. 
 
SNIP...
 
Other corporate fascists, like President George Walker Bush's grandfather (Prescott Bush) and his great-grandfather (George Herbert Walker -- after whom George W. Bush and his father G.H.W. Bush are both named), not only financed Hitler's rise to power in the 1920s and 1930s, they also made a great fortune from the slave labour that was used in the Nazi concentration camp at Auschwitz during the war. The proceeds of the Walker-Bush family's complicity in the Holocaust were confiscated by the U.S. government in 1942 -- under the Trading with the Enemy Act. However, when it was later returned to them, they used to it to launch the Bush family into political fame and the oil business. After WWII, Walker and Bush were instrumental in laundering the Nazi loot of Fritz Thyssen, Hitler's wealthiest industrialist backer. (Subscribe now: A future issue of Press for Conversion! will focus entirely on this history of the Bush family's legacy of support for fascism from the rise of German fascism in the 1920s to the present.) 

SOURCE:

http://cyberjournal.org/cj/show_archives/?id='799'&batch='16'&lists='cj'

[Octafish]

61. Small world. And very, very bad.

J Edgar Hoover had the goods on Farish, Harriman, Bush, Union Bank, Standard Oil and the rest of the bloody lot regarding trade with the NAZIs, as well as the coup attempt against FDR.

So what happened? These turds -- the forerunners of the BFEE -- co-opted Hoover. Of course the photos with Clyde didn't help, but it was the lifelong sinecure the 33º Mason wanted.

OT: Isn't it great that F911 came out when it did? Gee. Who'da thunk the public was interested in learning the Truth? Not Corporate McPravda, unfortunately.

OT2: Interesting personalities on DU of late. Don't they understand there's a real war on?

[goforit]

58. And they are in the little minority..............Charge on DUrs!!!

[shraby]

62. You can parse words till the cows come home but

one thing is certain. The America we know and love is in serious trouble no matter what you want to call the current Republican party. They are out to stifle our freedoms as far as we are willing to let them.
We have to speak out and keep speaking out in opposition to these fanatical freaks or one day we'll find ourselves in concentration camps being used for firewood.

[seemslikeadream]

69. This is the promise of love which overcomes all

Carved inside the pediment which sits atop the marble columns is a sentinel at the entrance to the United States House of Representatives. Standing resolutely inside this "Apotheosis of Democracy" is a woman, a shield by her left side, with her outstretched right arm protecting a child happily sitting at her feet. The child holds the lamp of knowledge under the protection of this patroness. This wondrous sculpture by Paul Wayland Bartlett, is entitled "Peace Protecting Genius". Not with nuclear arms, but with a loving maternal arm is the knowing child Genius shielded from harm. This is the promise of hope over fear. This is the promise of love which overcomes all. This is the promise of faith which overcomes doubt. This is the promise of light which overcomes darkness. This is the promise of peace which overcomes war.


Beautiful songs by singer-songwriter Sidney Carter called Vanished Like the Snow, about how often heroic women get written out of the history books.


Vanished Like The Snow
Tell me, where did Helen go?
This is where she had her dwelling
She has vanished like the snow
Where there is no way of telling
This is where she had her dwelling
And the while they come and they go
Where there is no way of telling
She has vanished like the snow

What became of Heloise?
Abelard, he was her lover
Once they lived in Saint-Denis
Where they've gone, I can't discover
Abelard, he was her lover
All the while they come and they go
Where they've gone I can't discover
They have vanished like the snow

Joan came riding from the rain
Everybody knows the story
England burned her in the rain
Theirs the shame and hers the glory
Everybody knows the story
All the while they come and they go
England's shame and France's glory
When she vanished like the snow

Where's the times and where's the places?
That is what I'd like to know
For they gloried in their graces
When they vanished like the snow

[Swamp Rat]

71. How about telling them

"Hey look over there!"... (give them a second to turn around). "You dropped your brain!"