What's the Hitler love-in all about?

[DWolper]

"At least Hitler could paint"
"Bush is WORSE than Hitler"
"At least Hitler cared about the poor in his country"
"Hitler brought many public services to Germany"
"Just give chimp time to catch up"

What is going on? Is it not possible to despise Bush* without thinking he is another Hitler? My last name is, you might have guessed from my moniker, Wolper. You might also guess that makes me a Jew. You are right. You should see my genealogy, my extended family "roots tree", and then think what all of those early deaths in Germany were all about. Those weren't relatives killed by a dumb, illegal, immoral war like Iraq. Those were relatives who were systematically plucked from German society for committing the crime of being Jewish. They were taken from the workplace, from the kitchens at home, the classrooms, from the *whole of society* and slaughtered as a sick "final solution" to the "crimes" of my forbears. In no way can this be compared to the travesty in Iraq. Many wars have been fought based on lies, injustice, and criminal intent. That, my fellow DUers, does not a Holocaust make. Genocide is genocide. It has a very specific dictionary definition. I must tell you that I am NOT easily offended. However, I am, in all honesty, in near tears at reading the posts of those who are falling over themselves to find reasons why HITLER is better than Bush*.

I responded to something in another thread about all of this and had to agree with someone who said that they were angry at being put in the despicable position of sounding like a Bush* defender when they were arguing the points I have made here. As horrible as this "president" is, he is not Hitler. The crimes in America today come nowhere close to the crimes of the Third Reich. Comparing them is offensive to many of us. I debated identifying myself as a Jew while arguing this point, but realized my name gave it up anyway. I don't want it to look like hypersensitivity. It is not hyper anything. It is history. I am not defending Bush*, I am attempting to stop the revisionism and the back slapping of Adolf Hitler, back handed or not. To say Bush* is worse than Hitler is saying Hitler was better than Bush*. For some of us, that is shocking and nowhere close to the truth as written in blood in the history books.
(edited to correct spelling)

[Forkboy]

1. I know what you're saying,but...

I think almost everyone uses Hitler in place of "facist",which Bush surely is.

[DWolper]

2. my problem

My problem is not in using the term "fascist," I am specifically talking about the numerous posts that compare Hitler and Bush* personally and come up with all of the redeeming qualities for Adolf Hitler. That's not talking about fascism, that's comparing Bush* with a very specific man. People have thrown the term "fascist" around for years. I remember it being used against Nixon, Agnew, Reagan. But I don't remember anybody EVER saying that any of those were WORSE than Hitler. That's the difference and I hope you understand.

[Forkboy]

7. I do understand

The comparison isn't totally correct,but it isn't totally wrong either.I dont think people are deliberately trying to downplay the atrocities Hitler was responsible for,though I do see how it could be taken that way.

Unfortunately,in politics,hyperbole often rules the day.I'm glad you're pointing out a different viewpoint though.

[jsummers]

140. kick

[Slickriddles]

66. Who are these "veteran DUers"?

I was attacked as a racist for the following thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1862671

It got so bad apparently that someone (not me) called in a moderator.

Anybody got a good definition of "agents provaceteurs"?

Numbers of Posts doesn't mean shit.

And why do some people seem to know an awful lot about the Free Republic website?

Let's see, what are the commonalities of these characters:
1) Giant Pictures as part of their posts.
2) Ad hominem attacks.
3) Pointing to their 1000s of posts for validity.
4) An intimate knowledge of what's on Free Republic or Rush or Hannity or.....
5) Profiles that give the bare minimum of info.

Could some of them be Cyber-Brownshirts?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

102. You know, I just recently got a rather insulting response to one of...

...my posts in this very same thread. I found it to be personally insulting because the poster attempted to imply that I was somehow "racist" because of something the poster thought they saw in my sig-line.

Care to read it? You might want to also read my reply to this individual.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1869640&mesg_id=1872942&page=>

By the way,

-I don't include "Giant Pictures" as part of my posts;
-I don't resort to "Ad hominem attacks";
-I never point to my number of posts as a sign of "validity";
-The only "intimate knowledge" I have "of what's on Free Republic or Rush or Hannity or....." is what I see posted on DU; and...
-The content of my profile is about average for most posters on DU.

[Slickriddles]

134. well I guess I wasn't talking about you Mr. Lies-Daily n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

154. No, you were responding DIRECTLY to me as is evident in the thread....

...and now you're trying to get out from under it.

Too late.

[tom_paine]

167. 6) Muddying the waters with Red Herrings.

"If at first you don't succeed try, try again."
--The Little Engine (could he?)

[Slickriddles]

173. Tom what happened to the Big Picture of Boston?

I'm here, I'm the Hootchie Coochie Man
- Mckinley Morganfield



I never heard of the Red Herrings but I do love Muddy Waters

[tom_paine]

177. I know you do. It was too big for the standard sig line.

However, don't disingenuously pretend you care.

Gern? USA4Me?

I wonder which of the Homerotic tom_paine fanclub from (you know where, don't you?) are here now?

I keep telling you folks I'm straight.

However, if you wish to continue fantasizing about me and hanging on my every word, go right ahead.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

98. Who has specifically stated any redeeming qualities for Hitler...

...other than in complete jest?

Maybe part of your problem is your apparent inability to understand what people are actually saying in their posts.

[napkinz]

4. Oh, it's a metonym

[DWolper]

9. a metonymy???

Not quite. If it is being used as such it is wrong. many people use offensive metonymies in our society that are just plain wrong and offensive concerning ethnic minorities and others. We call them "code words." I don't think Hitler should be used as an metonymy by anyone who understands history and has an ounce of respect for it.

[mzmolly]

32. I agree. Though I think Bush has used some of the techniques of the

Hitler regime, it's disrespectful to the millions who suffered under Hitler to compare him to the monkey in office. Bush has created much suffering, but he's no Hitler ... not yet anyway.

I just had a discussion last night with my husband about this when he was comparing * to Hitler.

[AntiCoup2K4]

34. Since you brought up understanding history....

...then that must include the history of how Hitler came to power in the first place. And that was through the financial backing of people such as Prescott Bush, whose investments in the Third Reich also eventually brought him profits from a steel mill which used concentration camp labor. So the link of Bush to Hitler is literally and historically warranted.

Is Bush "as bad" as Hitler? It's easy to say "no" if you view Hitler from the post 1944 perspective, when everything he had done was over and the body counts were finalized. But how many people saw Hitler in that light 3 years into his term? The Jews probably had it figured out, possibly the German communists and a few others, but certainly not the majority.

The PNAC agenda resembles Mein Kampf in the sense that their agenda is blatantly spelled out, yet many refuse to believe it, even as it's acted out. To this day, there are German people who believe Hitler was a "good man" when he started out, and then somehow snapped and got out of control. I've heard this with my own ears. Very possibly it's their sense of denial, for not wanting to believe they allowed someone that evil to take over their country in the first place.

But at least the Germans could look at the Autobahn and the Volkswagon and say that Hitler initially did things to benefit Germany. Bush supporters don't even have that excuse, as he hasn't done SHIT for this country. The Busheep are in the very same denial, thinking that the man who proclaimed Jesus Christ as his "favorite political philosopher" couldn't possibly do something as vile as lie about a war. Much less be willingly negligent (or perhaps directly complicit) in the murder of nearly 3000 people on 9-11-01.

Will Bush BE as bad as Hitler? I'd really rather not find out. But the potential is truly there :scared:

[Dardi]

47. "But at least the Germans could look at the Autobahn . . . "

And there it is again, like a reflex.

[Cheswick2.0]

49. Are you saying German's couldn't look at the Autobahn?

?

[Dardi]

53. The ". . ."

Means I was referring to the whole sentence, not just the quoted excerpt. Specifically, the kneejerk elevation of Hitler whenever W is being discussed. As in "well, at least Hitler . . ."

[jsummers]

139. Kick

[jsummers]

141. kick

[jsummers]

142. reply

[LibertyorDeath]

157. AntiCoup2k thank you for such a thoughtful post

It's staring us in the face IMO

[tom_paine]

168. We Jews have the duty of "Never Again"

Not "Never Again, as long as it comes in a readily identifable forma and only if we Jews are the victims."

I will NOT back down from the TRUTH.

Bush isn't worse than Hitler...and we have a duty to see that neither he nor his family get the chance to become so.

Remember, even HITLER wasn't as bad as Hitler in 1936 (Bush 2004).

[TruthIsAll]

86. How do you measure it? EVIL is EVIL, regardless of the number murdered.

Hitler killed 6 million Jews. Very EVIL.
Serial murderers of 10 or 20 people are Very EVIL.

Bush stated a pre-emptive war for Oil in which thousands of innocents have died. Evil.

Bush has impoverished millions of Americans who do not have health care and may die prematurely as a result. Evil.

Bush has limited stem-cell research which can only prevent lives from being saved in the future. Evil.

Bush has disregarded the Geneva Convention. Evil. Even German POW camps played by these rules.

Read this and pray that God is just.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1871289&mesg_id=1871289

[shraby]

3. My greatest fear is that with another

four years, he will emulate Hitler and our country will become an indescribable hell on earth. This time it won't be the Jews but another group of people to extinguish. Hopefully we've become civilized enough to avert such a disaster since today is a completely different world than that of the WWII era.
Personal and public communications are more advanced, people more educated, travel more extensive in and out of the country and this may circumvent plans that may be in the works. We need to keep working together so nothing like the holocaust can ever ever happen again.

p.s.
I realize atrocities are and have been waged in other countries like in the Cambodia a few years ago and in the Sudan currently for two examples. If we weren't tied up in Iraq and had a different president, maybe the tragedy in Sudan could be stopped.

[DWolper]

8. You are right about one thing

You said that "We need to keep working together so nothing like the holocaust can ever ever happen again." Absolutely. "Never Again" is something we have been saying for sixty years. But, with all due respect, part of the education in that is to teach people how to recognize genocide and the Holocaust for what it is. As much as I despise Bush* I see nothing that would make me think that he will "emulate Hitler" and find "another group of people to extinguish." My point is similar to the little boy that cried wolf once too often. Comparing someone to Adolf Hitler is not something that should be done lightly and without evidence, IN ORDER to ensure that it NEVER happens again. Again, I feel almost foolish sounding as if I am defending the atrocities of George W. Bush*, and like the poster in another thread, I resent being put in the position of appearing as such.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

20. You're welcome to your opinions, but as long as FratBoy....

...walks like a Nazi, thinks like a Nazi, and talks like a Nazi, I'm personally going to call him a Nazi. You don't have to like that, and I really don't care.

Additionally, FratBoy has only been "on the job" for a little less than four years. It took Hitler almost eight years to approve of the Final Solution and invade the old USSR. That gives FratBoy and his NeoCon sidekicks another four years to become as bad as Hitler was....do you want to take that chance? Do you?

How many more wars will FratBoy get us into?

For how many tens of thousands of lives is FratBoy responsible at this point in time? 30,000? 40,000? More? Want to shoot for millions, or possibly even billions?

You may not see anything that gives YOU the willies, but I see more parallels than I care to count.

[Eloriel]

64. Speaking of PNAC

They're followers of Leo Strauss who was basically a Jewish fascist. True. He spoke of "universal fascism" which was fascism that wasn't anti-Semitic. One of his students, Michael Ledeen, even wrote a book by that title.

NEO-CONS
One more time: LEO STRAUSS AND THE NEO-CONS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=7200&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes
WAKE UP! - Strauss / Neocons and Terror PLUS dire warnings
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1780890#1781801

Leo Strauss and the Noble Lie: The Neo-Cons at War
http://www.logosjournal.com/mason.htm

[Cheswick2.0]

56. I know something about Genocide too

I think locking up people who happen to be Arab and or Muslim and saying they could be there for life without trial or representation is very hitler-like. Unfortunately we are doing that not just in this country but also in the middle east.
And many other countries are also commiting genocide of one type or another. It's not like it can't ever happen again. You don't think only Jews have been or can be victims of genocide?

[Eloriel]

62. The problem I see with your argument is that

to you (and others who feel as you do), Hitler is ONLY linked to the Holocaust, the Final Solution.

Yes, no argument that the Holocaust was his ultimate, unspeakable horror. But you are forgetting, as others are trying to point out, all the things that led up to his being able to do that, the trajectory from his initial rise to power until the Holocaust. And frankly it annoys the hell outta me because your line of thinking does precisely what you're complaining the comparisons WITH Hitler does -- makes it more possible it CAN happen again. If you are not starkly aware that the trajectory WE have been on under Bush parallels Hitler's to a hair-raising degree, then I hope you'll do some additional research -- and quick. We need as many people as possible to understand what's happening here, and it's waaaaay too like early Nazi Germany (1930s) for my taste.

Let's also please not forget that Nazism wasn't JUST about genocide as horrible as that was, or EVEN anti-Semitism -- Jews were NOT the only targets. Gypsies, homosexuals, the handicapped were included as well. It isn't strictly necessary for those of us who see the dangers for anti-Semitism and genocide of any race or ethnicity to be part of the mix to call it what it is.


As much as I despise Bush* I see nothing that would make me think that he will "emulate Hitler" and find "another group of people to extinguish."

I don't compare Bush to Hitler lightly -- at ALL. Nor do most of those posting here, I can assure you. He has ALREADY emulated Hitler, as for the genocide part of that sentence, again, Nazism and fascism are in no way exclusively about or even totally defined by genocide.

Further, if you look deeply enough you'll see some hints of genocide-to-come in their plans. PNAC calls for biological weapons that can target specific genotypes (races?). And that's not the only clue out there, either.

[hyphenate]

80. Hitler was evil, pure and simple

But whether a comparison to Bush is warranted or not, there is a comparison here worth noting: Hitler's hatred for the Jews was partly fueled by the fact that his biological father (of which he was never legitimized) was a Jew, and he hated him for it. Through the "career" that Hitler had in his rise to power, he lied incessantly about the "Christian Aryans" being of "purer" blood and thereby setting the scene to kill all who weren't of such "pure" blood.

Hitler exterminated more than Jews--he went after anyone who wasn't the ideal picture of what he thought would compose the master race. Homosexuals, other religious groups (besides the Jews), handicapped people (blind, deaf and dumb), and so many, many others.

Today, the far right Christian element here in the United States is already on their way to doing the same thing to anyone who isn't a "Christian" in their eyes. And Bush is one of them. It starts small, you have to understand. The comments like Ann Coulter made about killing all the Muslims.......Once a comment goes unchallenged, they keep going one step further every time. They will keep it up, gaining one foothold at a time until the world accepts their extremes and the courts allow monstrous things to happen without keeping them in check.

Schools will stop teaching evolution, and start teaching creationism. Pretty soon it will be once again illegal to teach evolution. Pretty soon all the home-schooled kids who weren't taught sciences and sex education, and birth control and other sensible and necessary subjects will be in control of the government. It's happening already--there have been articles on students from such extreme colleges as Bob Jones who are being shooed-in to work as interns and other political positions, on their way to claiming electable positions.

It's a ways off, but I'm not paranoid because I feel that this is nonsense--there is enough evidence that this country is being pointed into the direction of an extremist and bigoted nation, with restraints against anyone who isn't Christian (the extreme kind), white, rich and powerful. If you are none of these, you will be drafted, held as virtual slaves or indentured servants (while they can't use the word "slave" anymore, that's exactly what a person's status will be), or forced to leave the country for your own safety.

Mr. Wolper, I genuinely sympathize with you. I've studied WWII for a very long time, did studies on Auschwitz and other concentration camps, and know what horrific things were done to the Jewish people under Hitler's regime. However, in all honesty, the German people who brought him to power were not all evil people--they had come away from World War I with a nation far more poor and depressed than any other, except for perhaps Russia, and they needed a leader who could raise them out of that cesspool of life they found themselves in. If Adolph Hitler had not been a charismatic figure, if he hadn't been able to give them what they needed at that time, he would never have been able to inviegle his way further and further up the chain of command to get to the powerful position he reached. If Germany had understood this beforehand--if they had begun to recognize the signs of what he was accomplishing, partly behind the back of the citizenry, perhaps he could have been stopped at any point prior to when he was almost invincible.

Here in the United States, there is dissent and the ability to question our government. However, even now there are signs that GWB is using some of the same tactics that Hitler used when he was gaining power in Germany. Passing himself off as the "ordinary" man, trying to convince them that his opponent is a rich SOB who is going to screw them, not allowing protest groups within a mile of his multitudinous photo ops, hiding all the shit that he's done before and since he became the resident elect, the lies, the covering of those lies by all those that surround him, making speaking up by his detractors the equivalent of treason, the Patriot Act which allows for the scrapping of our civil rights; these things make GWB the equivalent of Adolph Hitler before he reached the zenith of his power. If people keep allowing these actions to go unpunished--and even unrecognized--then they are as culpable of what might happen in this country ten, fifteen years from now as he is. While he can not have more than 2 terms under current U.S. law, what is to prevent him and his regime from declaring martial law at some point, and suspending all elections? What is to prevent him from changing the law and make the presidential terms 3, 4 or even unlimited terms? With a Republican senate and house, as well as a Republican majority on the Supreme Court, there is little that Democrats, Independents and others can do to stop him.

While I agree that GWB is NOT Hitler, there is very, very little that says he could NOT be that evil at some point in the future, if he keeps getting away with what he is currently getting away with. If you haven't seen Fahrenheit 9/11, I suggest you do. The revelations in the film, the cold, calculating tone and viewpoints of GWB in the film show you that he is an evil waiting to happen, a potential new generational Hitler if left unchecked in his rise to power.

[Swamp Rat]

97. What is your definition of genocide?

"But, with all due respect, part of the education in that is to teach people how to recognize genocide and the Holocaust for what it is."

So, what is happening in Iraq? How many dead Iraqis does it take to get to the center of a "genocide pop?"

[LibertyorDeath]

155. With all DU respect relax your focus

"As much as I despise Bush* I see nothing that would make me think that he will "emulate Hitler"

and look again. Are you sure you see "nothing"

Hitler was Evil on a level unparalleled I agree. Bush is a Mussolini wannabe

but are you 100% you see "nothing"

I see plenty. I see a group of people busy laying the ground work for a Police State I see Corporate Media helping I see a lot.

No Bush is a lightweight but he would not pass up the opportunity to sit down to lunch with Hitler. There are many... many in his administration who would not pass on lunch with Hitler starting with his chief adviser Karl Rove.

Bush's Grandfather helped finance the Nazis this is part of Historical record. No Bush is no Hitler he's not even Mussolini but he is without a doubt the worst president in all of American History.
He is a Fascist in Republican clothes.

[Swamp Rat]

161. Well, when you post on DU you are subject to criticism.

I am subject to criticism for everything I post here, and I welcome it, because I want to learn. We are, as far as I am concerned, all equals at DU.

You and I agree on the most important issues:

We both reject Hitler. And since I am a loving, feeling, and ethical human being, I have a hard time including Adolf Hitler and ALL of his Nazi supporters, in the category "human being." We may both have different experiences pertaining to the Holocaust in Germany, but I know what the inside of a gas chamber looks like (1991 - fortunately as a student).

We both dislike Bush*. I don't, therefore, expect you to defend his atrocities.

I want to prevent another holocaust, and so do you.

Where we diverge is buried in your comment: "Comparing someone to Adolf Hitler is not something that should be done lightly and without evidence, IN ORDER to ensure that it NEVER happens again."

"Comparing someone to Adolf Hitler is not something that should be done lightly and without evidence." In what context? Do you know about PNAC? Why can't satirists make this comparison? And if they do, HOW do they impede our efforts to prevent another holocaust? Must I keep my mouth shut because Bill O'Reilly says so?

The part: "IN ORDER to ensure that it NEVER happens again" seems to imply that if angry, rash and/or uneducated Americans make the BUSH/HITLER comparison without evidence, we may not be able "to ensure that it NEVER happens again."

My major problem are those words: "IN ORDER to."

I do not agree that if people yell loudly from the rooftops, "BUSH IS JUST LIKE HITLER!" it will somehow hamper the efforts to prevent another holocaust.

I do not think there is only ONE way to prevent another holocaust. You did YOUR part as far as I'm concerned and now I want to do MY part, in my own way.

I also do not think by making the BUSH/HITLER comparison it could possibly help another holocaust to happen either. It has, though, gotten lots of people fired from their jobs, including German and Canadian governmental officials.

So, if you work for the U.S. government or the corporate media, and publicly say in front of your boss, "BUSH IS JUST LIKE HITLER!" you might lose your job. If I had a job, I would have been fired many times over the last 3 years.

Mr. Wolper, please continue making movies. Maybe you won't, but if I were in your position, I would make a full-length movie that compares Bush to Hitler. If you look down the proverbial "rabbit hole" you just might find enough material to make a whole series of films.

[Cat Atomic]

5. In a way, Bush IS worse than Hitler.

He's an *American* fascist leader. I'm not going to sit here and say that his crimes compare to Hitler's, but Hitler was a foreign leader.

However bad Hitler was, he was "them". He was at arm's length, and we can call him "enemy". Bush is "us". To see the same qualities in one of our own administrations is worse... in a way.

But to your point- I've never seen anyone on DU say Hitler was a nice guy.

[Dardi]

51. I've never seen anyone on DU say Hitler was a nice guy

I have. The thread was deleted, but the poster is still a member. The title of the thread, if I recall correctly, was:

"Hitler wasn't that bad!"

[RoyGBiv]

6. I understand your concern...

And I agree to an extent. I've been among those who have argued for a long time that any comparison between Bush and Hitler is misplaced and counter-productive at best, and this was when those comparisons were being made with regard to the similarities. For the most part, I've been told to shut up, not in so many words, but that's the meaning behind them.

The problem is that Bush brought this on himself by choosing to allow his campaign to make the comparison with the acknowledgment of the "60 Second" ad submission and trying to turn it around on Kerry. This creates a dilemma of sorts.

It's long been a distasteful truth discussed among historians than Hitler got some things right and in fact was copied by other Western nations, particularly the United States. Be certain that when I say he "got some things right" I refer only to the various measures he enacted in attempts to solve Germany's dire economic circumstances. A form of social security, other types of welfare to help those who could not find work, public works projects to create work, etc. were all initiated in Germany, and FDR's "brains trust" took note of their success and argued for their implementation in the US. Of course, there were distinct and important differences between the German model and that implemented in the US, but the basic idea was the same.

Because Bush has been so neglectful, even hostile, to domestic issues and because he, as mentioned, has acknowledged the Hitler comparison in an attempt to discredit Kerry, the current comparisons are a natural, if unfortunate result. I don't like it any more than you do, and I truly wish it were possible to convince people to avoid it.

You are absolutely correct that the crimes of Hitler's Germany are nowhere near the crimes of the Bush administration. But one begins to wonder, with his embracing the comparison, if, given his willingness to kill at will to achieve his personal economic concerns and his lack of attention to domestic issues, whether a second term might not result in something similar, if not the same or worse. I am inclined toward the optimistic in saying that I would like to think "it couldn't happen here" or at least could not happen again in quite the same way ... but watch the man and then look at Hitler in 1933. We're in severe danger, I think, and if the comparison causes people to think about that seriously, I can no longer argue it shouldn't be done.

[mare]

18. about what Hitler did for Germany...

Being German, I felt the need to put some things right here, at least as much as I can from history classes back in school.

First of all this:
the various measures he enacted in attempts to solve Germany's dire economic circumstances.

As far as I know what he did was first of all to break up the treaties from 1919 that forced the Weimar Republic to pay for various war debts (I remember one of my teachers saying that if those treaties would have stayed intact, Germany would have had to pay for it until 1988). Which means there was more money to work with in the first place. My history teacher also used to say that he solved the unemployment by putting a lot of people into weapon factories.
That is not to say that Hitler didn't try to do something against the state of the German economy back then, but in my opinion you have to put that into porportion: Why did he do it? He didn't do it because he was such a humanitarian, he did it to secure support from the public and to gain more power that way.

A form of social security, other types of welfare to help those who could not find work, other types of welfare to help those who could not find work,

The first German Social Security was started back in the 1880s by Otto von Bismarck and the German Emperor. The political party SPD was getting stronger and stronger, so Bismarck/the Emperor felt the need to adopt some of their ideas. Having social security in Germany was not Adolf Hitler's idea.

Also about this myth that Hitler built the "Autobahn": They had started working on it back in the 1920s. Again: it wasn't his idea at all, he took what was already there and sold it as his idea or one of his great accomplishments.

[RoyGBiv]

24. Putting things into perspective...

Thanks for the insider's perspective...

You are absolutely correct in pointing out that a lot of this was not Hitler's idea. But that's not really the point. Almost none of what FDR did was original either. These ideas had been floating around in various forms since at least the mid-1800's, in large part due to the philosophy developed by Karl Marx and other socialist thinkers. That's not to say that everyone agreed with Marx, quite the opposite. But, his influence, which was broad, forced opponents of his philosophy to react to his ideas. He truly changed the world ... for the better, I might add.

The point I am making is that Hitler was one of the first leaders of a state to implement a coherent system of measures intended to improve both the national economy and the domestic "quality of life" of that nation's citizens, at least as he defined "citizen." The German monarchy and the republic before Hitler made steps, but their program was primarily geared toward diluting Marx's influence by taking small steps that pleased enough of the common people that they did not adhere to Marx's idea of the proletariat revolution. He did this by adopting the new paradigm of fascism, which was fundamentally opposed to socialism, and promoting it in such a way that the concerns socialism addressed were cosmetically addressed by his own system.

That's why I say there were distinct and important differences between what FDR did and what Hitler did, but at the most fundamental level, the measures employed were much the same. FDR didn't create the idea of social security, obviously. Nor did he wake up one day and decided on a public works project to employ people. What he did do, and what Hitler did, was take a lot of these various ideas and mold them into a coherent whole that sought to improve the nation in which they were implemented.

You are also certainly correct in pointing out that much of what Hitler did would not have been possible had he not essentially ignored the Treaty of Versailles. It is also true that the practical effect of many of his programs were the result of increased military production born from the intent of European conquest. Once again, I am not defending Hitler in any way. I am merely pointing out that what he did do with regard to domestic issues is more than what our current President has done. When Hitler wanted to conquer the world, he put his nation to work. As Bush is attempting to conquer the world, he is putting to work only those companies with which he and his cronies have a personal financial interest.

Hitler was an evil man who sought to make his nation, as he defined it racially, great. Bush is an evil man who only uses the rhetoric of national greatness as a tool to increase his own and his cronies' personal wealth.

[Kellanved]

28. yes

the various measures he enacted in attempts to solve Germany's dire economic circumstances.

As far as I know what he did was first of all to break up the treaties from 1919 that forced the Weimar Republic to pay for various war debts (I remember one of my teachers saying that if those treaties would have stayed intact, Germany would have had to pay for it until 1988). Which means there was more money to work with in the first place. My history teacher also used to say that he solved the unemployment by putting a lot of people into weapon factories.
That is not to say that Hitler didn't try to do something against the state of the German economy back then, but in my opinion you have to put that into porportion: Why did he do it? He didn't do it because he was such a humanitarian, he did it to secure support from the public and to gain more power that way.


No, I can't agree there. The treaties had been reduced to an acceptable level by Stresemann; Hitler had nothing to do with that. The Economy was on a rebound anyway; the Nazi programs and mass recruitment did not kick in until much later.

[newyawker99]

31. Hi mare!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Swamp Rat]

99. Willkommen!

Welcome to DU :toast: Prosit

[Zomby Woof]

10. you know why I don't trust your post?

I agree that the 4 or 5 stupid DUers who allegedly made those comparisons should be taken to task, but ONLY when you actually SEE those remarks made (if they ever were at all), and not in some random, blanket condemnation thread which seems designed to disrupt. It is NOT a DU-wide "love-fest" when a SMALL, and I mean MINISCULE number of DUers make historically questionable comparisons. Only because it is late, you are being spared an onslaught in replies.

With the energy buzzing over Moore's film, antennae are up, and it would be advisable to pick your battles with veteran DUers carefully.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DWolper]

12. What????

Low post count is a giveaway? Did you not have a low post count once upon a time? I, frankly, have a low post count everywhere when it comes to this computer business as I arrived rather late to the tech revolution. I am extremely disappointed in these two replies as it points to such an IRONY! In a thread about Hitler and Fascism, I get responses telling me to (quoting ZombyWoof above) "With the energy buzzing over Moore's film, antennae are up, and it would be advisable to pick your battles with veteran DUers carefully." May I paraphrase? "With everybody excited about Fahrenheit 911, everybody is paying attention, how DARE you question the comparisons of Hitler and Bush* coming from veteran DUers. And watch your step." That's not an attitude that evokes thoughts of freedom and liberty, ZombyWoof.

I am somewhat surprised that I would be called a "disrupter" for posting a deeply held belief about the comparisons in question. It sounds like some of you are rather touchy about anybody questioning this and to me, that's a little scary when we're discussing the LIBERTY to speak out. I already wrote about the resentment I feel toward having to be put in the position of sounding like I am defending Bush*. I have been a Democrat all of my life, and I am guessing that might be twice as long as yours. My concern is heartfelt and genuine. I am sorry that it is viewed with suspicion, I find that very sad. I will not be brought into an argument over ME because of a low post count and my daring to question. Again, a look at history should make it crystal clear how I could be offended by the comparisons.

My disdain for George W. Bush* is at fever pitch after seeing F-911 two days running. I will be taking yet another old friend of mine to see this film tomorrow. It is a wonderful documentary and I admire the work of Michael Moore greatly. My admiration is not only as an American, but as one who has spent decades in the film industry. I see the potential of F-911 being pivotal in the election after its release in September on DVD.

It is late and I will be going on to bed, but I look forward to returning tomorrow to hopefully see that a few understood what my original posting was truly about. Goodnight.

- David Wolper

[JI7]

17. sorry if it was an honest question

it's just that i have been seeing so many on here who are really right wingers trying to pose questions disguised as attacks. the way you asked the question with the "love in" part seemed like it was one of those.

i have a problem with some of the things said on here at times but i usually don't group everyone on du together.

[Morning Dew]

48. I loved Willy Wonka

Thanks for the grin, Mr. Wolper.

[LTR]

149. disregard

[gpandas]

52. very touchy n/t

[LTR]

150. I was watching "Penn and Teller: Bullshit!" tonight

Keep it coming! Great show from you guys!

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

21. "Hate on DU"?? This is NOTHING compared to what you can read...

...on Freeperville, or hear from Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter and all of the other rightwing hatemongers.

If you and others don't, or won't, recognize what's been happening to this country since December 2000, then that's YOUR problem, not mine, and certainly not DU's problem.

The rightwing of the GOP has been bashing the Democratic Party since well before Clinton's legitimate election as President in 1992. And they REALLY don't like it now that the Dems are fighting back. Too damn bad...get used to it.

Sorry, but I've read waaaay too many of these whining "why are you comparing FratBoy to Hitler" posts.

[LibertyorDeath]

159. Media_Lies_Daily we need more of you if we hope to win this

by win this I mean the Far right has taken the gloves off it's Fight or Flight time.

There is no time to whine & mope about.

Cheers MLD

[merh]

25. If you or your boss want to read hate, then go to FR.

Yes, the sentiments are high. We can't help it because we love our nation and we see the direction it is going. If you will take the time to research facism and read Mein Kempf, you too will notice the eerie similarities.

[mitchum]

35. Tell your boss, "Go fuck yourself"

hatefully,
mitchum

[Pathwalker]

41. So, what did your boss think about the way the right

attacked Clinton for the 8 yrs. he was actually the ELECTED President? Was he upset when Clinton and Hillary were both regularly accused of murder by countless right-wing pundits? Was he a tad upset over the bleached blonde brigade (including lynne Cheney) DEMANDING that the right to vote be taken away from American women - because the majority of them vote Democratic?
I didn't think so.
Any ASSHOLE who uses Rush as an excuse to bash DU is not someone whose opinion I give a DAMN about, and neither should you. You might also inform your boss that Rush's dittoheads come here often and start very stupid threads that they then point out to Rush, so he can falsely paint all of DU with one very, very broad brush. Did your boss mention that?
I didn't think so.

And one final point: The New Messiah(Rev. Moon) has declared that both Hitler and Stalin have been reincarnated as newer, improved versions of their old selves. We now know them as George DUBYA Bush and Donald Rumsfeld. Didn't you get the memo?
I didn't think so.

[Cheswick2.0]

59. tell your boss I said to

shove his computer up his ass.

Will he be telling you who to vote for in November too? Unless he is paying you 200k, voting for Bush doesn't make sense in for you. However with a boss trying to brain wash you about the evils of democrats, you may very well vote against your own self interests.
Typical republican manipulation.

[jobycom]

13. Bush should be compared to Hitler

The only difference so far is in total numbers. Our job in a democracy is to stop the bad guys before their numbers get that high. We can do that by pointing out that Bush uses similar tactics, similar speeches, similar semantic constructs, similar government policies, similar lies to invade other nations, etc. Make the comparisons to head off future equivalencies.

As for the "At least Hitler" comments, they are just rhetoric. Bush's bloodlust is not.

[Swamp Rat]

101. Good response to this post

I'd like to see DWolper refute your response.

[DieboldMustDie]

14. Have you seen the spot on the Bush/Cheney website...

that compares Kerry, Gore, et. al to Nazis. For the fascists to compare liberals to Nazis takes a lot of chutzpa IMNSHO. Go to http://www.georgewbush.com and click one of the "pessimism" links. :grr:

[VolcanoJen]

16. Indeed. The Bush/Cheney Web Ad is a set-up.

They're running it, and then they're mailing this out to everyone who sent them a complaint email; funny, isn't it?

Dear Jennifer,

On Thursday, the campaign launched a web video titled Kerry's Coalition of the Wild-eyed. The video featured Democrats who support John Kerry making negative and baseless attacks against the President. Interspersed in the video were segments of two ads that appeared on a website sponsored by MoveOn.org - a group campaigning for Kerry - in January.

On Friday night, John Kerry's campaign denounced our use of these ads, and called that use "disgusting."

The Kerry campaign says, "The use of Adolf Hitler by any campaign, politician or party is simply wrong."

We agree. These ads, like much of the hate-filled, angry rhetoric of Kerry's coalition of the Wild-eyed, are disgusting.

Where was John Kerry's disgust when he hired Zack Exley - the man responsible for encouraging the production of these ads as part of a MoveOn contest - to run the Kerry campaign's internet operation?
Where was John Kerry's sense of outrage when Al Gore, just yesterday afternoon, compared the Bush Administration to the Nazis saying, "The Administration works closely with a network of 'rapid response' digital Brown Shirts who work to pressure reporters and their editors for 'undermining support for our troops.'"
Where was John Kerry's anger when Al Gore in May spoke of "Bush's Gulag"?
Why has John Kerry not denounced billionaire and Democrat Party donor George Soros for comparing the Bush Administration to Nazis. Soros stated, "When I hear Bush say, 'You're either with us or against us,' it reminds me of the Germans. It conjures up memories of Nazi slogans on the walls, Der Feind Hort mit ('The enemy is listening')."

Why has Kerry not spoken out against filmmaker Michael Moore who last October compared the Patriot Act to Mein Kampf. "The Patriot Act is the first step. 'Mein Kampf' - 'Mein Kampf' was written long before Hitler came to power."
We created this web video to show the depths to which these Kerry supporters will sink to win in November.

Is this the Democratic Party of Franklin Delano Roosevelt who reassured his countrymen we have nothing to fear but fear itself?

No. This is John Kerry's Coalition of the Wild-eyed, who have nothing to offer but fear-mongering.

Sincerely,

Ken Mehlman
Campaign Manager

[tom_paine]

169. Never talk to monsters. Once you know what they are.

Ken Mehlman, the Galleuiter of the Ministry of Truth.

Note the parsed lies, the justification for their misdeed by comparing "apples and oranges".

And if I hear a Bushevik call it the Democrat Party again, I am going to personally (COMMENT REDACTED).

Evil must be opposed. No option.

The Monster Ken Mehlman must be opposed (though, like Eichmann, he probbaly is quite charming in personm). His vile "kinder and gentler" Nazi Masters withtheir Nazi propgaanda techniweus MUST be opposed before we actually get to see how EVIL these Bushevik Monsters are.

Will they be as bad as Hitler, once they get his level of unchecked power? Worse?

We can't know.

Let's not find out.

[mzmolly]

33. Yes, Bush is comparing Democrats to HITLER on his website. Though

I expect that ridiculousness from *

[bobbyboucher]

19. I have to call bullshit!

There is no lovefest for Hiltler here. There is a well deserved eye kept on everything Bush, and his tendencies toward acting a little reichish, but why criticise those who fall on the side of "over-cautious".

Don't paint with such a broad brush, lest a little get on you.

[merh]

22. With all due respects, I must disagree with your post and I ask you to

read the below thread posted by elf. Elf is a German immigrant operating a company in the United States trying to realize the American Dream with hopes of one day becoming a U.S. Citizen. Well poor elf is scared to death and is considering escaping our fine land because elf sees the signs, recognizes the signs that his/her parents warned him about, Elf sees how * & Co. are evolving into the horror that was Hitler and his regime.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1791526

No, there have not been any atrocities in the U.S.of A. that resemble the Holocaust, not yet anyway. But they are pretty close to happening in Iraq as Bushco is fostering and encouraging a hate for Islamic people. All terrorist are evil, all terrorist are Islamic, all terrorist must die, all Islamic people must die. Substitute the word Islamic for Jew and what have you got? There are many in the U.S.of A. right now who would have no problem with doing that right here at home.

You may be Jewish, but that does not give you sole propriety over the outrage of the Holocaust, nor does it give you editorial rights regarding our impressions of and/or interpretations of Hilter and/or *. Fascism is what we are talking about and it is in the making, he is using the same tactics to cultivate his followers as Hitler did, so referring to him as Hitler is natural.

I agree with you Hitler was horrible, but given time, complacency and encouragement * can be worse than Hitler. Why might you ask is that. Because the U.S.ofA. is a greater nation than Germany was and because he has many more resources at his disposal than Hitler did.

By the way, I am a Pole and I think Hitler had a problem with us too.

[the Kelly Gang]

23. it's frustration at not being able to drag B*** from his bunker

[oscar111]

26. homeless death rate

as to atrocities, large numbers, i recall a boston study many years ago, about ten, that said the hmless die at three times the normal rate. I recently have not had luck in finding it on the net, but my memory of it is firm, and it seems likely in theory, given that the ancients used "death by exposure to the elements".

With 1 million exposed to elements on any one night, and due to people moving in and out of hmless status, 3 million involved each year, it works out to 7,000 new deaths above the normal rate, per month. that is 7,000/month excess deaths above the normal rate, due to exposure... aka , due to the homeless policy. 24 years of this since Reagan began it all.

You figure out the total.. it is astonishing that it is nowhere in our media.

Compare this to hitler. Less, sure, but sizeable and in broad daylight on the sidewalks of every US city. Not hidden, as in Germany. "where is the outrage?" as someone said.

[left is right]

27. The comparisons that make Hitler seem better

or attempts at humor. In most (but not all) cases a point can be driven home by wit quicker than logic. But the point of all Hitler-Bush comparisons is to stop what we see happening a slide into something that might not be Nazi-ism but will be just as evil when it is full-blown. If the German people had made a more comparisons of Hitler-Nero or Hitler-Gegngis Kahn, or Hitler-???, perhaps Hitler could have been stopped before he could have inflicted his evil on the world. And make no mistake about it, it was the Germans' responsibility to stop him. Just as it is ours to stop Bushco

[Cheswick2.0]

61. Imagine humor and rueful Irony here at DU

It seems pretty obvious to me that this is what people are doing. But people just love to get offended.

[bushneedstogo2]

29. Bush and Hitler are one of the same

[Sirveri]

30. Is Bush Hitler?

Well lets take a quote from one of the old flock.

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

Credit; Hermann Goering. Chief Air Marshall of the Luftwaffe. Look at what Bush has done, and look at the tactic Mr. Goering said Hitler used.

It's really too bad the Chief Justice Minister Herta Gmeljin was fired for making the connection before everything hit the fan. I hope she is offered her job back at this point.

[geek tragedy]

36. A brave post

but there are people here who know nothing except their own hatred of Bush. It is the one absolute thing in their lives, and the evils of Saddam, Stalin, or Hitler pale in comparison because they hate Bush with more intensity.

For such people with a lack of historical knowledge, Hitler had an open history of Jew-hatred long before he came to power, and had arrested his opposition in Parliament and banned all opposing parties within TWO MONTHS (THAT'S SIXTY DAYS) of being appointed Chancellor.

You'll also find people here linking to Holocaust denial sites because they view them as having more credibility than the evil "corporate media."

[merh]

37. What are you trying to say in your post?

It is the one absolute thing in their lives, and the evils of Saddam, Stalin, or Hitler pale in comparison because they hate Bush with more intensity.

What kind of crap is that? No one here sees the evils of Saddam, Hitler and Stalin pale in comparison to *. We see the similarities of * to Stalin, Hitler and Saddam and we are terrified for our nation and the lives of our children. Historic perspectives are not required to see the similarities so you can stick your history in your pocket and use it somewhere else.

But, please tell me what you know about the personal life of *. Do you know if he has had a long standing hate for all blacks, mexicans, catholics, etc? He has not shown a fondness for gays and he and his cronies are big into this christianity supremacy thing. Although he is portrayed as a good ole boy, he is in fact an elitist and he could care less for the middle class or lower class. They have hidden so much about his personal life no one knows who * is except the select few. We have been presented with an image.

Again, no on on DU has ever doubted the Holocaust. If you want to read about that go to FR. We agree the Holocaust was horrible and Stalin was evil. We see the evils of * and we equate that to other evil dictators. He may not be a dictator yet, just a wannabe, but all of the other dictators began as wannabes.

We appreciate the corporate control involved in all of this and we see the link and we know that the drive for wealth, power and position goes hand in hand with the dictatorship and world domination that it appears * & Co. and their corporate cronies have envisioned.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

IMHO - you are absolutely off base.

[geek tragedy]

39. You must have missed all of the

"Saddam wasn't so bad" threads, and now all of the "Bush is worse than Hitler" threads.

We don't know that Bush doesn't hate blacks, Latinos, Jews, etc. But we don't know that he does either. We do know that Hitler had a racial supremacist viewpoint, and that he advertised it long before taking power.

Bush is a garden variety homophobe. The real tragedy isn't that his position on this is outrageous, but rather that it is so common (and homophobia is not limited to white Republicans--it is a prejudice that is carried by everyone from freepers to African-American democrats).

Regarding the Holocaust denial links, I've seen links to:

The American Free Press
Rense.com--check out this webpage if you doubt me: http://www.rense.com/Datapages/zionismdata.htm
Serendipity.li
aztlan.net

And I've only been hanging out here for a month or so.

[merh]

44. No, I didn't see those SH & H threads. Do you know why?

If there is a thread that doesn't interest me, then I generally don't go to it. Kind of like using my remote control on television.

Since I didn't read the threads I can only assume that they were satirical. I don't know how many DUers took part in the posts, but I would assume that it was a few as opposed to the thousands of DUers, so it is obvious that its sentiments were not shared by all.

As to the link you provided re the Holocaust, please provide the DU thread that provided you with the link. I would like to read the context of the posting(s). See, I am one of those kooky people who believe things need to be read in context. Just because a link is provided to this article does not mean the DUer agreed with it.

Your political correctness in referring to Mexicans as Latinos just shows that you may not be familiar with a common sentiment of some folks in Texas (where * has his lil' ole ranch). Mexicans are referred to as grease backs, spics, mexicans and other such slang terms, rarely the PC term Latinos. (Just an observation)

* has a Christian supremacy viewpoint and he advertizes it daily. He wanted to call the war in the Iraq the crusades for heavens sake. He is fostering the atmosphere for the worse war imaginable, a holy war with nuclear weapons. That is far worse than anything H perceived.

If you love *, then you will not enjoy the posts here and you will find yourself in the minority.

By the way, I do think * is worse than SH. His mass murders in Iraq, his control of the press, his use of torture, his religious fervor (or misuse of religion), his greed and his desire to enforce his ideas of democracy on others ranks him right next to SH. Big difference - SH admitted to being a dictator and he was clear on his desires -- * has wrapped himself in my flag and is destroying my country.

[merh]

50. Geek -- Here are some links for you to consider.

DUers are not the only ones who see the similarities. A federal judge made the observation in a speech he gave last week. Of course, he had to apologize for his observations, see we even have control of thoughts going on in this country. Don't speak bad about our president, that is not patriotic, you are a traitor, you hate american, yaadaaa yada yuck.

I also ask that you read elf's link that I provided above. It might help you see that this is not paranoia, it is reality.

Here are the links, the first is the story regarding his speech and the second is about the apology.

http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/getmailfiles.asp?Style=OliveXLib:ArticleToMail&Type=text/html&Path=NYS/2004/06/21&ID=Ar00101

http://www.lexisone.com/news/nlibrary/n062504e.html

[Junkdrawer]

38. Show me those links...

or will you show me links that point to links that end up at "Holocaust denial sites" ?

[geek tragedy]

40. See the above post

Lots of links to rense.com.

[Junkdrawer]

42. No, I mean show me links to DU threads that deny the holocaust...

or at least DU threads that DIRECTLY link to sites that deny the holocaust.

[geek tragedy]

43. I consider rense.com a Holocaust denial site

Aztlan.net was another.

Here's a google of DU threads linking to a Nazi, Holocaust denial webiste:
http://www.google.com/search?q=+americanfreepress+site:democraticunderground.com&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&as_qdr=all&filter=0

Conspiracy mongering:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1592067&mesg_id=1592067

http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID43/5370.html

I could go on, but I have a beautiful afternoon to enjoy.

[Junkdrawer]

45. Just as I thought - you can't find a single Holocaust Denial DU thread...

Peddle your Antisemitism Baiting somewhere else. DU is very strict about keeping this place free of antisemitism. Now, if you consider opposing Likud antisemitic, then guilty as charged.

[geek tragedy]

67. People cite to explicitly anti-semitic websites

I never said people here deny the Holocaust--only that they rely upon Holocaust deniers for their news.

[Junkdrawer]

75. You really should take a look at the DU Israeli/Palestinian rules...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x21970

[geek tragedy]

76. I'm not the one citing to those sites

Those rules apparently don't apply to the entire forum.

Post-Nick Berg, General Discussion was filled with threads citing to Rense.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

96. Don't you really mean citing articles that Rense linked to his site...

...articles that have been written by completely reputable writers working for completely reputable news sites?

Aren't you really being more than a little deceptive?

[merh]

55. Out of context, out of context, just as I had surmised.

You choose an appropriate id - geek tragedy. It fits because you are if you think this type of BS flies.

[geek tragedy]

68. Not out of context

People here cite to Nazi websites for news. What's out of context for that?

Of course, those people are the exception, not the rule.

But, I maintain that anyone who cites to Rense, american free press, and sites like that don't take Hitler as seriously as they should, and are probably getting an excessively pro-Nazi historical perspective.

[Junkdrawer]

70. Nazi websites??????

There you go again...

[geek tragedy]

72. The American Free Press

is a Nazi website, founded by Willis Carto. It has been cited here as a source of facts.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

95. Got a link proving what you state?

[geek tragedy]

104. Do you ever do your own research?

Try googling "Willis Carto" and "american free press."

Here's a sample for you:
http://www.americanfreepress.net/Mark_Weber/mark_weber.html

<snip>
Weber has done his job well. Primarily because of his subversion, the IHR is dead. What was in 1993 the world’s leading voice of responsible and effective historical scholarship in the field of revising history in regard to the so-called “Holocaust” lies still.
<snip>

http://www.americanfreepress.net/Conference/previous_conferences/16_afternoon.html

[Media_Lies_Daily]

109. Do you ever read ANY of the posts to which you respond? I asked you...

...specifically for a post on DU that has used the American Free Press as a sole source of information.

Have you found one yet?

[geek tragedy]

116. My post must have been deleted or something

Here's one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&forum=102&topic_id=624160&mesg_id=624960

[Djinn]

129. and some people here

especially in the I/P use crap from Little Green Footballs and other rabidly anti Muslim/anti Arab sites.

There are some people (sad no life types) who post here specifically to discredit DU and the left in general (get a fucking life people!) but frankly most people ignore their obvious baiting.

Also unless someone links to a holocaust denying article (as many anti Muslim posters do specifically with their repeat posting of openly racist bile) then I think your drawing a REALLY long bow.

[geek tragedy]

176. Fuck the LGF'ers

I hate those moronic unAmerican bigots. They and their neo-Con poster idols belong in hell. Did you see the "Little Green Footballs or Late German Fascists" quiz?

I should learn to ignore the obvious disruptors.

I'll just use the "Alert" button.

But this Hitler shit still pisses me off. Bush is horrible enough being Bush--no need to demonize a monster.

[Djinn]

183. Yep - t'was a good quiz

personally I'm not overlly fond of the Hitler comparisons but to be honest I don't think that many are made - making a comparison to Hitler's and the Nazi's early actions in power I think is OK though, the whole "Homeland" and Patriot Act stuff is really pretty facsistic not to mention abducting foreign nationals and holding them incommunicado and without charge for YEARS, I'm not sure if the Nazi's even did that in their early years.

[jsummers]

144. kick

[merh]

82. I can site to * website, but that does not in any way suggest that I

think like him and his cronies. The threads you sited are discussing the berg beheading and possible explanations of his death other than those that have been told to us by our gov and the media. Thus, your referencing them as you did cites them out of context and makes your stance less than credible. Kind of like our admins, the lack of your credibility makes me doubt your sincerity and your loyalties.

I can tell you to go read Mein Kempf and I can admit to have read Mein Kempf. That does not mean I agree with Hitler and/or am sympathetic to his cause and/or think that he wasn't such a bad guy. Get this straight - Hitler was evil.

Contrary to your apparent approach, I believe in trying to read as much as I can on a subject for all sources available. I think that allows me to make a more intelligent analysis and helps me reach an intelligent understanding of the subject.

I resent the generalizations that you have made and your accusing DUers of being insensitive to the Holocaust. We take Hitler serious, you apparently do not take the bushco machine very serious.

Again, if you don't like a post's subject, don't read it. Turn the channel. If you don't like any of those websites you listed, don't go to them. But don't you dare assume that because some one does go to them to read different positions on issues that they are wrong or are in agreement with the writings.

[geek tragedy]

108. Do you cite to Bush's site or Faux News because you think they're

telling the truth?

My guess is that you cite to them to show what dishonest bastards they are.

When someone cites to Rense as a source of information, they are implying that we should give some credibility to what he's saying.

Most DU'ers don't share Rense's disgusting beliefs, and most are sane, unlike him.

There is no reason to get the Nazi perspective on things.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

112. When I personally link to Rense it is because he has an article....

...on one of his webpages that is written by a reputable author writing for a reputable news source. Does that mean I am a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer for linking such an article?

You seem utterly incapable of understanding that concept, just as you seem utterly incapable of understanding the content of the posts to which you respond.

Why is that exactly? Are you being purposefully obtuse? Please explain.

[geek tragedy]

114. I haven't seen your posts, so I'm not going to point the finger at you

My point is that citing a website as a source legitimizes it. I won't link to Drudge or Fox News or World Nuts Daily. I don't read their sites.

If I do see an interesting article that appears on a disreputable website, I do a quick google to make sure that it appears on a legitimate site and cite to that.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

120. Thanks for the lecture on how and what to link.

[merh]

115. Again, you have taken the DU posts you linked out of context.

Why don't you admit to that. If you don't like the nazi reference then ignore the threads or read them and move on. You are entitled to your opinion, but so are the DUers who see the similarities of this administration to that of the facist nazis of Germany. Again, I ask, did you read elf's post. IMHO, elf is a more credible source on the subject than you or any resource you can site to me. Personal experience is a much better resource than any historical or intellectual resource that you may have.

Did you read of the federal judge who shared his similiar impressions with others and then felt obligated to apologize?

If you want to bury your head and not see the dangers that our nation is facing then do that.

[geek tragedy]

118. Elf?

Is that someone's nick here?

The Judge apologized because it is highly inappropriate for a sitting Court of Appeals Judge to make those kinds of comments. Judges are under separate obligations than ordinary citizens.

Bush is a danger to this country--I wouldn't be at DU if he wasn't.

However, if he really were the same as Hitler, the only recourse would be to organized violent opposition. Once Hitler had taken power, no civil means of oppoosition was possible. Debate and voting could not stop him, only a bullet could.

I don't see anyone here recommending the type of resistance necessary to truly stop a Hitler-type of tyrant.

If he's truly a military dictator and genocidalist, then everyone here is an idiot for relying on John Kerry and the democratic process for stopping him.

Comparing someone to Hitler, and indulging in bizarre conspiracy theories, are disabling practices. What good can citizens do against genocidal, all-powerful conspiracies?

[merh]

122. Okay, here we go again. I realize others have suggested you try this,

but just in case you don't understand what you read, I will type it slowly. Read all of the posts in this thread. Go back to my post #22. I give a link to elf and an explanation.

Everyone is bored with your judgmental, sanctimonious goobly goop. Bury your head in the sand or pretend that this is just politics as usual, its your choice.

In the future, it is suggested that you read all posts in the thread and please try not to reference them out of context unless of course you want to go find a job at FAUX news.

(edited for spelling error)

[geek tragedy]

163. Elf is one person, and I'm sure that most Germans would agree

that Bush, though despicable, is not Hitler.

It is good that you can read minds and speak for everyone.

Just for the record, here's another post that mixes conspiracy-mongering and Jew-baiting:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&forum=104&topic_id=1876763&mesg_id=1877471

I dare you to express outrage that such garbage has been posted here.

[merh]

170. Okay GEEEKKEEEE, you are boring me now.

Let me try one more time and again, I am typing very slowing in the hopes that you will read this and absorb its contents. If you want, you can go back and read it over and over again until it sinks in.

YOU ARE CITING THREADS OUT OF CONTEXT. The thread you have cited is an informational thread providing a diverse (differing one from another/made up of distinct characteristics, qualities, or elements)selection of links to a variety of sites discussing a wide range of topics that in some way are related to or discuss 9/11.

This DUer that posted this thread has not supported or advocated hate sites, but you appear to frequent them as you are able to pick them out of a list of informational links. I challenge your sincerity and I believe that it is you who is the hate monger trying to spew your rank opinions on the rest of us through your postings. Whether I am right or wrong, it is my opinion and I am allowed to have that.

Elf is just one German, yes that is true (you do have a way with the obvious don't you) but there are others who have expressed the same or similar feelings as referenced in this thread. Again, I would suggest you read all of the posts on this thread.

Stop referencing links or threads out of context and stop being such a nuisance. If you have trouble understanding this post, take the time to read it and absorb it. Also, take the time to read all posts on this thread. If, after that you have problems with DU then you should feel free to leave. No one is forcing you to partake in the discourse.

[geek tragedy]

174. The person who created that post

got tombstoned, and rightfully so.

What kind of person links to "The Genocidal God of the Jews?" You can defend that shit if you want.

But you know that post was garbage, whether you're honest about it or not.

It had no place being posted on DU. The bigot who posted it is history, as he/she should be.


I've said that the great majority of people at DU don't subscribe to bigoted views. But, as a place dedicated to resisting aWol, it is also going to attract some distasteful and disreputable discussion originating from people who oppose Bush but are no friends of the progressive movement.

You can challenge my integrity all you want--I really don't give a flying Cheney what you think about me. But, when I see people claiming to be progressives minimizing Hitler's harm and citing Nazi-friendly articles and hate speech, I'm going to call them out. I am not going to abandon the progressive cause to the right-wing Nazis trying to infiltrate it.

[merh]

178. Then you be sure to go get yourself tombstoned for

posting the links to the trash you site. GO AWAY - you are not progressive you are opinated and closed minded. Your opinion is not the only opinion on DU. You can turn in all the posters you want to the moderater but you shoud start with yourself for linking to that garbage you so arrogantly use as cause for your outrage. If the poster was tombstoned and you keep the link to use again, you are not only a tattle tale, you are a hypocrite.

As I have said before, if a thread contains materials offensive to or of no interest to me, I don't read it. I suggest you do the same.

If you do not like DU then go away and find another forum to post your "progressive views".

[geek tragedy]

179. I don't claim that the contents of those sites are true.

I am closed-minded when it comes to Holocaust deniers, right-wingers, and bigots. They suck, and their perspectives are per se invalid.

But, you have no fucking clue whether I'm a progressive. None. I object to reactionary, fascist, racist sites being cited as legitimate sources of news. That does not mean I'm not a progressive.

[merh]

180. You provided those links in support of your outrageous

contention that DU is filled with Hitler or Nazi lovers. I called you on it and you not only cited one link,if I recall you cited at least 3 links, thus you have an obsessive interests in the sites you so damn. You are the one who called yourself a "progressive" and all I did was suggest that if DU was not progress enough to please you to go somewhere else.

I can tell from your posts that your not as progressive as you would like me to believe.

[geek tragedy]

181. Did I claim that DU is filled with Nazis?

NO!

What I said was that anti-American Nazis and fascists try to infiltrate progressive causes. You see neo-Nazis often proclaiming their solidarity with the Palestinian people. Does anyone really believe that David Duke cares about the Palestinian people? I hope not. But, they seek to exploit legitimate progressive issues to further their agenda of hatred and division.

Make no mistake: The Timothy McVeigh crowd has hopped onto the anti-Bush bandwagon and is trying to convince people that their way is the correct way to resist imperialists and proto-fascists like Bush and the neocons.

The "black helicopter" and "New World Order" crowd were considered right-wing hate groups associated with McVeigh and the militia movement during the Clinton presidency. Now, they're pretending to be anti-imperialist progressives. I can guarantee you that they'll be making outrageous conspiracy claims about John Kerry within two years.

[Slickriddles]

153. Geek Tragedy

Do you remember back in the 60s when the FBI had Cointelpro, and they would like insert guys into the Black Panthers and get well-meaning people to do stupid shit so they could destroy the organization? Do you remember that?

[merh]

172. Apparently you have not read as much as you

pretend to have read. Ignorance is a tool of facism and totalitarians and dictators. Information is a weapon that can be used to defeat their purpose. Go read and learn, you may benefit from it and you might enjoy it.

[Cheswick2.0]

63. Your post alerted me to the fact that some people here

like to make shit up.

[Djinn]

128. who links to Holocaust denial sites?

and why is corporate media in inverted commas - unless of course the media in your town is run by a community collective??

anyone linking to a specific Holocaust denying websites - as opposed to a news site which may have an article written relating to the subject - would be told to remove the link if not banned outright.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dardi]

54. That's nice

"along w/many other bush* apologists here"

Someone voices a sincere concern and you attack him as a Bush apologist.

Edited for typo.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

58. That's your opinion that someone voiced "a sincere concern", isn't it?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

65. Well, you know about 'tag-team' posting, right?

sooooo obvious :eyes:

[Dardi]

125. What are you saying, exactly?

Why don't you spell it out, or would that violate the rules?

[merh]

60. Please read all of the posts. Sincere concern has not been

voiced, misrepresentations and misinterpretations have been addressed.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

73. Both of you know very well these posts are sarcasm and admitted hyperbole.

And yes, I CAN read minds. In a limited fashion, but in this case it is enough.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

57. Exactly. 2003-2004 FratBoy is very, very similar to 1933-1934 Hitler.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

91. Another insulting post from geek tragedy. Why am I not surprised....

If my ignorance is "appalling", then yours has no bottom limit.

Show me exactly where your linked timeline disproves my post where I stated the following, "Exactly. 2003-2004 FratBoy is very, very similar to 1933-1934 Hitler".

I don't think you can show me squat.

[geek tragedy]

94. Well

has Bush arrested any members of Congress or banned the Democratic party?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

100. Did you even read my response? Try again.

[geek tragedy]

105. I did

You can't seriously be arguing that the banning of all opposition parties and arresting of opposition lawmakers is only a minor difference.

Can you?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

107. You still haven't read my post. Try again.

[geek tragedy]

110. Can you offer actual thoughts or just repeat yourself ad nauseam?

1933-34 Hitler had arrested opposition lawmakers and banned all political parties other than the Nazi party.

THAT BY ITSELF MEANS BUSH CAN'T BE VERY, VERY, VERY SIMILAR TO 1933-34 HITLER.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

113. Did you read what I stated about the anthrax attacks on Democratic...

...leaders and the chilling effect that had on the Democratic Party?

Just a guess, but I'm judging by your last post that the answer to my question is "No".

There are different ways to gain control of an opposition party. The fact that Hitler controlled opposition parties by brute force and FratBoy controlled the Democrats by fear and intimidation indicates that they BOTH achieved what they wanted to achieve. That, among other similarities, makes them VERY, VERY SIMILAR, does it not?

[geek tragedy]

119. First of all

There is NO EVIDENCE AT ALL that Bush was responsible for the Anthrax attacks.

The Democrats did not abandon their opposition to Bush after the Anthrax attacks. They were guilty of political cowardice leading up to the Iraq war, but that's their own fault.

John Kerry is probably going to boot W's dishonest, fundie ass out of the Whitehouse. That there is a national opponent from the organized opposition party in an election itself makes the comparison invalid.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

123. Whatever you say. We all know that your opinion is the only...

...one that counts, right?

Tell you what, you go right on believing whatever you want to believe about FratBoy and his strong similarities to Hitler, and I'll believe what I want to believe.

My Dad, a WWII vet and very far from a "wild-eyed liberal", has repeatedly stated that he fought in Europe against the very thing that we've become. He also notices the strong similarities between Hitler and FratBoy, and he'll tell you in an instant what they are. For him to ever get to the point of making such comments makes me sit up and take notice. And he's not the only WWII vet to make such statements.

I will say this about your posts on this subject to date...those that fail to understand history are doomed to repeat it.

[geek tragedy]

164. Yes, I will continue to foolishly require things like

evidence and proof to form my beliefs, instead of my imaginiation.

Your version is more interesting, and would make a better movie though.

[Slickriddles]

89. Sic Semper Tyrannis -- Where have I heard that Before?

I remember, it is what that Confederate assassin yelled as he leapt to the stage in Ford's Theater after shooting Abraham Lincoln Commander-in-Chief of the Grand Army of the Republic, who had just defeated their sorry-ass white Christian traitor's rebellion, put guns in the hands of many African Americans, and Emancipated most of the population of the South. Yeah, that's where I heard it.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Slickriddles]

132. If the shoe fits..

I don't know where you get a racist smear from, Iwas just commenting on the signature. It is what John Wilkes Booth is reported to have said is it not?

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

77. One may say

the disease this time has to work harder and longer to infect the host because the latter has more antibodies. But all infectious diseases work more or less the same.

[geek tragedy]

79. That's all speculation

The argument appears to be "Well, Bush is just as bad, if not worse than Hitler, other than the dictatorship and genocide thing. But he might have those things too, given a chance."

It's a deeply unserious argument.

Bush is bad enough for being Bush. He doesn't need to be Hitler to be a scary religious fundamentalist who poses a great danger to the planet and American democracy.

In any event, President Kerry will assume office within a year and W can go back to golfing.

[LibertyorDeath]

160. See post 156 in this thread

& then relax and open your mind.

It's right there to see those who LIVED THROUGH IT CAN SEE IT.

CAN YOU SEE IT IT"S RIGHT FUCKING THERE IN FRONT OF YOU

"In any event, President Kerry will assume office within a year and W can go back to golfing"

So you don't think that a

"scary religious fundamentalist who poses a great danger to the planet and American democracy"

won't use EVERY ILLEGAL means necessary to keep Power.

Think Again...

[smirkymonkey]

136. Excellent analogy...

and we need to resist fascism and expose the truth of what is happening in order to keep up our immunity.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

93. Let's compare your comments about Hitler to FratBoy, shall we?...

"FACT: Hitler had opposition members of Parliament arrested within one month of being appointed Chancellor."

Within a very short period of time, anthrax envelopes were delivered to certain select Democratic Members of Congress. That worked just as well as arresting them because they proceeded to support every single NeoCon initiative.

"FACT: Hitler had banned all political parties besides the Nazis within two months of being appointed Chancellor."

See my answer above. By neutralizing the Democratic Party, FratBoy only had to work with the rubber-stamp GOP in Congress.

"Fact: Hitler had a well-documented hatred of Jews before coming to power."

Evidently, so did the Bush family, as well as a number of other prominent American families. Read the following links:

<http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=detail&catalogno=NN_Bush_Nazi_2>

<http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=detail&catalogno=NN_loftus_interview[br />
<http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0306/S00055.htm>

===============================================
Additionally, you are very insulting and highly obnoxious. I base my opinion on the following comments that you made in your previous post, as well as several earlier posts:

1. "You are seriously ignorant and removed from reality."

2. "You have no idea what you're talking about. Perhaps you'll learn more when you graduate from high school."

[geek tragedy]

111. So, your response

is a loony conspiracy theory?

News flash: The anthrax attacks shut down the entire Congress. They did not shut down the democratic party. They did not prevent the Democrats from voting any more than they prevented the Republicans from voting.

Seriously, you'll just say anything, no matter how absurd, to support the patently false assumption that the US and Bush of 2004 are almost exactly the same as Germany and Hitler of 1933-34.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

117. Ah, there we go...another personally insulting comment....

...how many does that make for you in this thread alone? You'll say anything to attempt to suppress the idea that FratBoy and Hitler have a great deal of similarities, won't you? Why is that, exactly?

Newsflash for you, geek: The rest of the world believes in conspiracies, because they know them to be true most of the time. In fact, when some major event takes place, the first question they ask is "Who gains?"

Additionally, the anthrax atacks were targeted at Democratic leaders' offices, weren't they?. Not a single GOP leader's office received an anthrax envelope, did they? Did they ever catch the people responsible for the anthrax attacks? No. Why is that, exactly? Who stood to gain?

Who stood to gain by the events of 911, and how is that similar to the Reichstag fire?

[geek tragedy]

121. The old "who stands to gain" canard is a fallacy.

Who gains and who is responsible are two different things.

Iran stood to gain the most from the US's failed Iraqi invasion. Does that mean that Bush is an Iranian agent?

Sorry, but I think MIHOPism is idiocy. There's as much evidence that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11 as there was that Bush was--none.

I won't debate MIHOP with you because it's like arguing the virgin birth with Christians--it's an article of faith, not logic, reason, and evidence.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

126. "Iran stood to gain the most"???? LOL!! More unadulterated crap.

[Cleita]

69. It's about history repeating itself and it's not about love.

eom

[PROGRESSIVE1]

78. Bush is Hitleresque, YES!

[number6]

81. At least Hitler could make a complete sentence.

:evilgrin:

"Just give the chimp time to catch up"

without the Constitution and Bill of Rights
smirkface could indeed catch up ...

[IronLionZion]

84. He was a fantastic speaker

like a cult leader. He could make ordinary people support horrible things.

[IronLionZion]

83. hitler came to power by pitting poor white germans against everyone else

specifically jews but millions of non-jews died in those camps too.

Bush does something similar with conservative patriots and liberal traitors. Sure Bush isn't killing us off...yet.

But facts are facts. Hitler's programs were real. The only reason we have a national interstate highway system is because Eisenhower saw the one Hitler built! The third reich could not have been a succesful invasion force without it. And he did revive their economy with slave labor and fanatical military manufacturing. None of that compensates for the fact that he was evil and what he did to your people is tragic.

On a side note, do you know anyone who drives a Volkswagen? The company was started by the nazis with jewish slave labor. BMW and Mercedes also used slave labor but were older than the nazis. Lots of people drive these vehicles today.

Of course Bush is not as bad as Hitler, or Stalin, or Pol Pot, Idi Amin, or many truly horrific people. Shrub doesn't order the killing off of millions of people. But there are some similarities. Calling him Hitler just gets your attention.

I don't mean any offense by this post.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

85. It's no use

Some people just want a "See? Liberals are EVIL!" trophy they can show to their friends (or to the media) and anything that diminishes the glitter of said trophy will be duly discarded.

[Zynx]

87. Comparing Bush to Hitler is a stupid argument.

Hitler is the most supremely evil man who has EVER walked this earth and I doubt he will ever be surpassed. We hurt our own credibility by comparing Bush to Hitler because Bush, as bad as he is, is nothing close to Hitler.

He is a great deal closer to Antonio de Oliveira Salazar of Portugal who was dictator from 1932 until 1968. Salazar did all of the following:

1. Fought imperial wars that killed thousands(Angola and Mozambique)
2. Shunned the international community and was shunned by it
3. Obtained power through shady dealings
4. Imprisoned people without charges and held them for months
5. Enacted policies that benefited only the wealthiest who were also his supporters
6. Nearly bankrupted his country through his imperial wars

The one thing he didn't do though was use the death penalty like Bush has. Sure the imperial wars killed thousands, but he actually abolished capital punishment.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

106. No, it is NOT a "stupid argument". You're making an error that most....

...posters make when comparing Hitler to FratBoy. You're taking Hitler at the peak of his dictatorship when Europe and the Balkans had been largely overrun, North Africa was being contested, Great Britain was being bombed daily, the old USSR had been invaded, and the death camps were in full operation.

That's NOT the Hitler that's being compared to FratBoy. Instead, the Hitler that's being compared to FratBoy is the Hitler of 1933-1934 when he first rose to power as Chancellor of Germany. It took Hitler eight to nine years to get to the point described above.

FratBoy has been in control less than four years. Based on his activities to date, it is my OPINION that he has shown a number of similarities to Hitler's activities during Hitler's early years.

Where will FratBoy be if he's given another four to five years in control of this country? How many more wars will he get us into? How much lower can the economy be dragged before the wheels come off completely? He has already demonstrated a willingness to "detain" and torture foreign nationals, at what point will he decided that he needs to that here in this country?

You may disagree with someone else's opinion, but that DOES NOT entitle you to call that opinion "stupid".

[Djinn]

130. Not abdicating Hitler in any way BUT

to state (and so many people do) that "Hitler is the most supremely evil man who has EVER walked this earth and I doubt he will ever be surpassed" shows a limited scope of comparisson - I think you could say "most evil of the 20th Century" but even then you'd get an argument from many as to whether he was "worse" than Stalin or Mao.

Whatever constitutes "evil" I don't think it really has to do with numbers killed and even if it does - Hitler doesn't come out on top of history list of mass murderers

[Minstrel Boy]

88. It's Bush's Die Walküre, Wait until we get his Gotterdammerung.

Then, you may get the resemblance.

[Zorra]

90. DUers despise Hitler and this topic is BS.

Bu$h and Hitler have two indisputable things in common: Destructive, anti-democratic radical right-wing ideologies, and governing according to these dangerous ideologies.

That should be enough similarity to make any reasonable person vote for someone other than Bu$h in November.

[jsummers]

138. kick

[Swamp Rat]

103. "Bush is NOT Hitler, so stop saying that!"

"Bush is NOT Hitler, so stop saying that!"

"Bush is NOT Hitler, so stop saying that!"

"Bush is NOT Hitler, so stop saying that!"

- Bob Boudelang

[jsummers]

143. kick

[rasputin1952]

124. Just my 2 cents here...

I think the comparisons are based on the sheer joy that bush has when discussing or dealing with anything with death involved. The correlation becomes easy when you see the detachment both have with the sufferings of others, especially if those "others" are considered inferior; not just by either individual, but by society as a whole.

Racism is rampant throughout the world, it is not an American creation, it has been around for thousands of years. It is an American disgrace however, that we still embrace racism while touting the greatness of democracy and equality. Racism, (and many other "ism's"), have been used to suppress people from the beginnings of societies. In this aspect, there is little difference between bush and Hitler. bush despises those who do not share his personal vision, and he has immense power; this is a bad combination for any person, especially one that could easily become a despot. On one occasion, bush publicly stated that "being a dictator would be easier". That one statement shows me a lot of where this guy is coming from. His actions, tell me I was correct to distrust this individual from the beginning.

We are indeed fortunate, the tinfoil scenarios aside, that we have the opportunity to toss his sorry butt out of OUR WH, before he goes completely insane.

Just my 2 cents...as a member of DU fighting this horrid administration.

[Swamp Rat]

127. Yes, and

... death is a human universal as are the tasks associated in dealing with death.

"Otherness" is inextricably linked to death and matters of death, in warfare during the process of colonization, as well as other life/death constructs.

For a specific example of the aforementioned association concerning colonization, we can look to Queen Isabella's "Cannibal Law of 1503." "Otherness" is the argument behind a codified system that practiced genocide and slavery.

Bush and his administration make for a case study of how certain individuals and groups of people deal with death and "otherness."

[rasputin1952]

135. Death is indeed a universal element of life...

but one need not enjoy the death of others. Both bush and Hitler have that same make-up, they have no souls, no compassion. They both know only how to execute power through brutality, and edicts that procreate brutality.

The problem is, bush actually enjoys his power over life and death. This is why none were spared on TX Death Row during his tenure as Gov. Indeed, during the debates, he was absolutely gleeful in his announcement of another execution.

He has no moral bearings, he is not grounded in anything that society considers "normal". He is delusional, to the point where no one will give himn "bad news"...how could they, he is president annointed by God himself.

The whole situation is very sad, and even the most pessimistic of us after the last election, never expected this. He just plain has to go.

[Swamp Rat]

148. The process of ridding ourselves of Bush requires...

... among other things, a fundamental understanding as to what is acceptable and ethical behavior. Americans need to reevaluate how we feel about murder, torture, and genocide. I think we need to bring this dialectic to every citizen and require that they participate by asking themselves what it means to me an American or a "good" citizen. This at least might be a good place to start.

I agree that "... one need not enjoy the death of others," but the fact remains there are those who do (i.e. Bush and other authoritarian types). There are also those who respond, in their own way, by rejecting this type of behavior (this includes me).

Perhaps this is why people might defer to a comparison with Hitler. I see it as an honest, visceral response to the actions of George W. Bush. What is genocide, if it is not killing thousands of people of a different race, religion, or culture?

Fact: the U.S. military has been ordered to kill Iraqis.

Fact: The U.S. Congress did not declare war.

Fact: Innocent civilians have been indiscriminately killed en masse.

Fact: Prescott Bush (GW's grandfather) had financial ties to Nazi Germany.

Those who reject this notion may be uninformed, experiencing cognitive dissonance, or perhaps another explanation is forthcoming - I'll let others weigh in.

[Swamp Rat]

131. Give him some time and he might surpass Hitler

Anyway, your lead statement, "What's the Hitler love-in all about?" might be construed as an attack against peaceful people that commonly use the term "love-in" (i.e. John Lennon), by connecting them to the adoration of Adolf Hitler.

[Q]

133. The 'problem' with your thread is the stereotypical...

...garbage with which you try to paint all DUers with the same brush. "Hitler Love in"? A few DUers make comments you don't agree with so you hit everyone with your swill about 'loving' Hitler?

- If you have complaints about particular posts or posters on DU...address them directly. Don't come storming in here with the intimation that there's more than meets the eye. I frankly don't care if you're 'shocked' by the words of a few posters. Take it up with them and put your broad brush away.

[jsummers]

137. Q Q Q Q That is TOOOOOOOO Funny!!!!!!

That is just toooo funny! You, "Q", are one of the WORST about "painting with a broad stroke"!! If you can manufacture a connection between President Bush and **ANYBODY** that is a "bad guy" -- you do it!

To you and so many here at DU, if A is a friend of B and B is a friend of C then all of them, A, B, and C are connected, rotten, tied-together, etc. The broad strokes that are painted on DU are too fantastic to believe except by the most immature of thinkers.

I don't know what this guys motive was in posting this but my guess it was because he was pissed at the never-ending comparisons between Bush and Hitler. That's all! He obviously doesn't even like our president - but you guys are good at eating your own! I cannot understand especially coming down so hard on David Wolper who is one of the finest filmmakers of this or any generation! It is my guess that is who he is based on reading one of the guys posts. I don't agree with his views as he's right down DU's alley! But for God's sake! He's an icon! Didn't any of you like Willy Wonka or any of the kazillions of documentaries this guy has made? Even if he is a far lefty I'm surprised you guys were so rough. Well, get back to eating your own!!!!!!!!!!

[Q]

147. Maybe you only THINK you have a sense of humor...

...but instead you're just another drone.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

165. AHA

"He obviously doesn't even like our president"

I've yet to see a honest-to-God DUer that refers to * like THAT except for the purpose of mocking people who do. My Spider-Sense is tingling!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

145. I've never once compared bush to Hitler

I do think the bush administration comes too close to fascism for comfort, but when bush has had Congress "accidentally" burned down, when he creates his own secret police force and has them kill his enemies in the night, when he has 11 million people murdered, that's when I'll start the comparisons (actually I'll get pretty alarmed far before he hits that number!).

Anywho.....I know you know not all of us do that. Just wanted to weigh in.

[foreigncorrespondent]

146. Hi, DWolper

Firstly, welcome to DU. I am sorry it hasn't been as pleasant a beginning as possible for you.

I agree with you 110%.

Bush is no better than Hitler. The people of Iraq are being punished for crimes Saddam did, for which the U.S. gave him the power to do. As the Jewish people were punished for crimes their people did too many years ago to even warrant a mention.

Perhaps people need to realize that Hitler had the vision of the perfect person, a blue eyed blonde, if I recall correctly. I wonder how many that are defending Hitler here actually are blonde and blue eyed? There is a point in that. :)

Thank you for such a wonderful OP.

[dpbrown]

151. Yet

Bush isn't as bad as Hitler, yet. People may respond with differing sensitivities to the lesson learned from Germany's descent into state-sponsored terrorism and genocide and may draw different conclusions as to whether that tragedy bears an analagous relationship to current events, but the overarching message repeated time and time again has been, "Never again."

From using an attack on the nation as an excuse to roll back civil liberties, to faking a relationship between a nation and that attack as an excuse to start a never-ending war, to locking up citizens in violation of the Constitution, to running a systematic regime of torture prisons across the globe, to pinning the woes of the world on one religious group, this administration has all the hallmarks of taking us down the road we (or rather our parents and grandparents) swore we'd never go down again.

Bush, and his convicted felon cohorts, PNAC empire nutballs, get-rich-off-peak-oil bastard corporatists, and frothing-at-the-mouth freeper hatemongers, together have purposefully brought us down the road the world swore we'd never go down again.

Whether people are concerned at where we are with Captain Unelected at the helm, or rather where we're headed, their concern need not be blunted with a pissing contest over who had the worst genocide wrought on them.

What Bush is doing to the world is real, and it's serious, and the important thing to do right now is to counteract this detrimental world force, not to wax overly self-righteous over very real wrongs a hundredfold worse, done a half-century ago. This force is acting on our here and now, not our then and there.

We need to concentrate on the upcoming election, and electing an alternative, and if time and fortune permit, fully investigating the specific ways this administration may have subverted international and national law, and then impose whatever criminal sanctions the facts and the law support at that time. Only in that way can we fulfill our pledge to "never again" allow this kind of fascism to swallow a nation and embroil the world in death and destruction borne of hate and fundamentalism.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[nonkultur]

152. Hello David

Are you The David Wolper http://www.davidlwolper.com who worked on William Shirer's RISE AND FALL OF THE THIRD REICH?

Nice to hear your opinion on this subject.

[Hekate]

156. I think our "Reichstag" may have burned, but I would never...

...actually compare the two men. Most of my husband's extended family died in the Holocaust before he was born -- 'nuff said.

Even people who don't have a personal connection to genocide should have enough sense of 20th century history to understand that certain references should never be taken lightly.

But here's an interesting thing that happened to me in the months building up to the invasion of Iraq: My mother in law, a 90 year old lady usually more interested in her kishkas than politics, told me the atmosphere in the US was reminding her unpleasantly of Vienna in the 1930s. That was scary. Then it happened twice more, with elderly Europeans (Hungarian, Belgian) I met at some of the peace group meetings I attended. They were getting flashbacks, too.

Re choosing words: It's been hard for me to actually say, over time, that (1) we had a bloodless coup in 2000, (2) actual propaganda was extensively used to bring the American people along to the Iraq invasion, and (3) the Bushites are numerous and seemingly tireless in turning their agenda into our reality. That they are also apparently incompetent at (3) is a stroke of luck for us.

I tend to agree with Molly Ivins when she said, of some recent outrages against the Bill of Rights, "This is how it begins." In my more paranoid moments I hear the tread of Ashcroft's jackbooted thugs, and I think a lot of DUers feel the same way: that the Bush junta has placed us on a dangerous and slippery slope toward complete loss of our democracy.

We aren't there yet, but in the time since September 11, 2001 it's become evident that a cataclysm like that was the opportunity the neocons in the White House and Pentagon had been waiting for and they seized it with both hands. An opportunity...like the burning of the Reichstag.

Thanks for your post, DWolper.

Hekate

[Swamp Rat]

158. Paging "David Wolper"... Paging "David Wolper!"

Please address my questions in posts 97, 127 and 148.

Folks were admonished in another thread for not knowing who you are.

On edit: I found out who you are. My questions yet stand.

Welcome to DU.

Why can't the Holocaust in Germany be compared to the Holocaust in Iraq or even mentioned in a broader context? What do you know about Iraq - what has happened, and what is happening there right now - that nullifies it from consideration?

Have you not read Paul Wolfowitz's final solution (PNAC)? Isn't he Jewish?

I'm also interested in the history books that you referred to in the last sentence. What comprehensive history book is NOT "written in blood?"

My questions to you are not to be construed as attacks against you personally, nor do I deny that the German Holocaust wasn't one of the most terrible events in human history. I've BEEN to Dachau. I got into a fight there with another American that made crude jokes (fortunately my professors saw it my way). I lived in Innsburck and studied there. I know what happened. Some of us here on DU lost relatives in the German Holocaust.

I might point out though, that there were other holocausts recorded in the histories. Many civilisations did not survive to tell their tale.

[Swamp Rat]

162. kick for the early birds

[tom_paine]

166. NOBODY is saying Bush is worse than Hitler (yet)

We are merely observing the fact that many of the precursor of the Rise of the Third Reich are exemplified in the Imperial Family, particularly their use of propaganda techniques and demonization/dumanization language.

The similarity ALONE ("Every knows Liberals hate America" vs. "Everyone knows Jews hate Germany") is more than enough to worry me.

Yet there are more too numerous to mention.

Toatlitarianism, BY NECESSITY, is chimeric...a shape changer. Because we would recognize it if the Busheviks organized themselves and acted IDENTICALLY to the Nazis.

So, in order to reintroduce this New Incarnation of Totalitarianism, they are doing it differently as befiots the traditions and cultural mores of Amerika.

And I am a Jew, too. I apologize if you are offended and I am sorry about your family (my family lost it's people in Stalin's Gulags instead).

But I WILL not stop speaking the TRUTH!

Here is what Karl Jaspers, a German psychiatrist who fled Nazi Germany, has to say about you and many others like you.

Read carefully, my friend:

"All over the world I dread the self-deception which we have experienced - that this could not happen here. It can happen anywhere. It is improbable only where the broad masses of the population are aware of the possible menace and thus will not be lulled into security; where they know the type of totalitarianism and will recognize it in its rudimentary stages and in each of its manifestations - this Proteus who keeps appearing in ever new masks, who slips eel-like out of our grasp, who does the opposite of what he says, who distorts the meaning of words, who speaks not in order to communicate or tell the truth, but in order to numb, to distract, to hypnotize, to intimidate, to dupe - who will exploit and evoke every fear, and will promise security and utterly wreck it at the same time."
--Karl Jaspers

http://www.whitecloud.com/fight_vs_totalitarianism.htm

Think about it. Understand.

[Sparkly]

171. I agree

The fact that not all the crimes are comparable doesn't mean that NONE of the comparisons are valid.

In many ways, the rightwing is using Hitler's playbook. And what's even more disturbing to me is the response of so many American people, and the similarities to the response of the German people in the 1930s. It's an insidious preying on fear and nationalism, sorrow and hope, and selectively-blind trust.

[Slickriddles]

175. Hitler was worse than scum, ein scheissekopf

And when the Fuerher says we are the Master Race
We go plfffft plffft plffft
Right in the Fuerher's Face
- Spike Jones


Hitler, he only had one ball
Georing had two, but they were small
Himmler had something similar,
And Goebbels had no balls at all.

[Hubert Flottz]

182. Subject: Here is an Anti-Nazi website's take on the Bush/Nazi connection!

Chapter - II - The Hitler Project

Bush Property Seized--Trading with the Enemy

In October 1942, ten months after entering World War II, America was preparing its first assault against Nazi military forces. Prescott Bush was managing partner of Brown Brothers Harriman. His 18-year-old son George, the future U.S. President, had just begun training to become a naval pilot. On Oct. 20, 1942, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of Nazi German banking operations in New York City which were being conducted by Prescott Bush.

Under the Trading with the Enemy Act, the government took over the Union Banking Corporation, in which Bush was a director. The U.S. Alien Property Custodian seized Union Banking Corp.'s stock shares, all of which were owned by Prescott Bush, E. Roland `` Bunny '' Harriman, three Nazi executives, and two other associates of Bush.

The order seizing the bank `` vests '' (seizes) `` all of the capital stock of Union Banking Corporation, a New York corporation, '' and names the holders of its shares as: MORE....

http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm

George Bush:
The
Unauthorized
Biography

by
Webster G. Tarpley
&
Anton Chaitkin

http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm

Enjoy, oh and send the link to the GOPer Goon Squad!