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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-04 12:43 PM
Original message
Poll question: Afghanistan Policy: Success or Failure?
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Delano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-04 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Afghanistan? What Afghanistan?
There is no Afghanistan. America is at war with the Iraqi terrorists. America has always been at war with the Iraqi terrorists.

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

Al hail Big Dumbya!

Now let's assemble for the two minute hate!
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thoughtcrime doubleplusbad.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Oh, yes. The Two Minute Hate
Edited on Sun Jun-27-04 01:48 PM by gottaB
The next moment a hideous, grinding speech, as of some monstrous machine running without oil, burst from the big telescreen at the end of the room. It was a noise that set one's teeth on edge and bristled the hair at the back of one's neck. The Hate had started.

As usual, the face of Osama bin Laden, the Enemy of the People, had flashed on to the screen. There were hisses here and there among the audience. The little sandy-haired woman gave a squeak of mingled fear and disgust. bin Laden was the renegade and backslider who once, long ago (how long ago, nobody quite remembered), had been one of the leading figures of the Party, almost on a level with George W himself, and then had engaged in counter-revolutionary activities, had been condemned to death, and had mysteriously escaped and disappeared. The programmes of the Two Minutes Hate varied from day to day, but there was none in which bin Laden was not the principal figure. He was the primal traitor, the earliest defiler of the Party's purity. All subsequent crimes against the Party, all treacheries, acts of sabotage, heresies, deviations, sprang directly out of his teaching. Somewhere or other he was still alive and hatching his conspiracies: perhaps somewhere beyond the sea, under the protection of his foreign paymasters, perhaps even -- so it was occasionally rumoured -- in some hiding-place in America itself.

Seymour's diaphragm was constricted. He could never see the face of bin Laden without a painful mixture of emotions. It was a lean Arabic face, with a great fuzzy aureole of white hair and a small goatee beard -- a clever face, and yet somehow inherently despicable, with a kind of senile silliness in the long thin nose, near the end of which a pair of spectacles was perched. It resembled the face of a sheep, and the voice, too, had a sheep-like quality. bin Laden was delivering his usual venomous attack upon the doctrines of the Party -- an attack so exaggerated and perverse that a child should have been able to see through it, and yet just plausible enough to fill one with an alarmed feeling that other people, less level-headed than oneself, might be taken in by it. He was abusing George W, he was denouncing the dictatorship of the Party, he was demanding the immediate conclusion of peace with Afghanistan, he was advocating freedom of speech, freedom of the Press, freedom of assembly, freedom of thought, he was crying hysterically that the revolution had been betrayed -- and all this in rapid polysyllabic speech which was a sort of parody of the habitual style of the orators of the Party, and even contained Neocon words: more Neocon words, indeed, than any Party member would normally use in real life. And all the while, lest one should be in any doubt as to the reality which bin Laden's specious claptrap covered, behind his head on the telescreen there marched the endless columns of the Afghanistann army -- row after row of solid-looking men with expressionless Asiatic faces, who swam up to the surface of the screen and vanished, to be replaced by others exactly similar. The dull rhythmic tramp of the soldiers' boots formed the background to bin Laden's bleating voice.

Before the Hate had proceeded for thirty seconds, uncontrollable exclamations of rage were breaking out from half the people in the room. The self-satisfied sheep-like face on the screen, and the terrifying power of the Afghanistann army behind it, were too much to be borne: besides, the sight or even the thought of bin Laden produced fear and anger automatically. He was an object of hatred more constant than either Afghanistan or Iraq, since when America was at war with one of these Powers it was generally at peace with the other. But what was strange was that although bin Laden was hated and despised by everybody, although every day and a thousand times a day, on platforms, on the telescreen, in newspapers, in books, his theories were refuted, smashed, ridiculed, held up to the general gaze for the pitiful rubbish that they were in spite of all this, his influence never seemed to grow less. Always there were fresh dupes waiting to be seduced by him. A day never passed when spies and saboteurs acting under his directions were not unmasked by the Department of Homeland Security. He was the commander of a vast shadowy army, an underground network of conspirators dedicated to the overthrow of the State. The Base, its name was supposed to be. There were also whispered stories of a terrible book, a compendium of all the heresies, of which bin Laden was the author and which circulated clandestinely here and there. It was a book without a title. People referred to it, if at all, simply as the book. But one knew of such things only through vague rumours. Neither the Base nor the book was a subject that any ordinary Party member would mention if there was a way of avoiding it.

In its second minute the Hate rose to a frenzy. People were leaping up and down in their places and shouting at the tops of their voices in an effort to drown the maddening bleating voice that came from the screen. The little sandy-haired woman had turned bright pink, and her mouth was opening and shutting like that of a landed fish. Even Clarke's heavy face was flushed. He was sitting very straight in his chair, his powerful chest swelling and quivering as though he were standing up to the assault of a wave. The dark-haired girl behind Seymour had begun crying out 'Swine! Swine! Swine!' and suddenly she picked up a heavy Neocon dictionary and flung it at the screen. It struck bin Laden's nose and bounced off; the voice continued inexorably. In a lucid moment Seymour found that he was shouting with the others and kicking his heel violently against the rung of his chair. The horrible thing about the Two Minutes Hate was not that one was obliged to act a part, but, on the contrary, that it was impossible to avoid joining in. Within thirty seconds any pretence was always unnecessary. A hideous ecstasy of fear and vindictiveness, a desire to kill, to torture, to smash faces in with a sledge-hammer, seemed to flow through the whole group of people like an electric current, turning one even against one's will into a grimacing, screaming lunatic. And yet the rage that one felt was an abstract, undirected emotion which could be switched from one object to another like the flame of a blowlamp. Thus, at one moment Seymour's hatred was not turned against bin Laden at all, but, on the contrary, against George W, the Party, and the Department of Homeland Security; and at such moments his heart went out to the lonely, derided heretic on the screen, sole guardian of truth and sanity in a world of lies. And yet the very next instant he was at one with the people about him, and all that was said of bin Laden seemed to him to be true. At those moments his secret loathing of George W changed into adoration, and George W seemed to tower up, an invincible, fearless protector, standing like a rock against the hordes of Asia, and bin Laden, in spite of his isolation, his helplessness, and the doubt that hung about his very existence, seemed like some sinister enchanter, capable by the mere power of his voice of wrecking the structure of civilization.

It was even possible, at moments, to switch one's hatred this way or that by a voluntary act. Suddenly, by the sort of violent effort with which one wrenches one's head away from the pillow in a nightmare, Seymour succeeded in transferring his hatred from the face on the screen to the dark-haired girl behind him. Vivid, beautiful hallucinations flashed through his mind. He would flog her to death with a rubber truncheon. He would tie her naked to a stake and shoot her full of arrows like Saint Sebastian. He would ravish her and cut her throat at the moment of climax. Better than before, moreover, he realized why it was that he hated her. He hated her because she was young and pretty and sexless, because he wanted to go to bed with her and would never do so, because round her sweet supple waist, which seemed to ask you to encircle it with your arm, there was only the odious scarlet sash, aggressive symbol of chastity.

The Hate rose to its climax. The voice of bin Laden had become an actual sheep's bleat, and for an instant the face changed into that of a sheep. Then the sheep-face melted into the figure of a Afghanistann soldier who seemed to be advancing, huge and terrible, his sub-machine gun roaring, and seeming to spring out of the surface of the screen, so that some of the people in the front row actually flinched backwards in their seats. But in the same moment, drawing a deep sigh of relief from everybody, the hostile figure melted into the face of George W, black-haired, black-moustachio'd, full of power and mysterious calm, and so vast that it almost filled up the screen. Nobody heard what George W was saying. It was merely a few words of encouragement, the sort of words that are uttered in the din of battle, not distinguishable individually but restoring confidence by the fact of being spoken. Then the face of George W faded away again, and instead the three slogans of the Party stood out in bold capitals:

WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

But the face of George W seemed to persist for several seconds on the screen, as though the impact that it had made on everyone's eyeballs was too vivid to wear off immediately. The little sandyhaired woman had flung herself forward over the back of the chair in front of her. With a tremulous murmur that sounded like 'My Saviour!' she extended her arms towards the screen. Then she buried her face in her hands. It was apparent that she was uttering a prayer.

At this moment the entire group of people broke into a deep, slow, rhythmical chant of 'Dub-Ya! ...Dub-Ya!' -- over and over again, very slowly, with a long pause between the 'Dub' and the 'Ya'-a heavy, murmurous sound, somehow curiously savage, in the background of which one seemed to hear the stamp of naked feet and the throbbing of tom-toms. For perhaps as much as thirty seconds they kept it up. It was a refrain that was often heard in moments of overwhelming emotion. Partly it was a sort of hymn to the wisdom and majesty of George W, but still more it was an act of self-hypnosis, a deliberate drowning of consciousness by means of rhythmic noise. Seymour's entrails seemed to grow cold. In the Two Minutes Hate he could not help sharing in the general delirium, but this sub-human chanting of 'Dub-Ya! ...Dub-Ya!' always filled him with horror. Of course he chanted with the rest: it was impossible to do otherwise. To dissemble your feelings, to control your face, to do what everyone else was doing, was an instinctive reaction. But there was a space of a couple of seconds during which the expression of his eyes might conceivably have betrayed him. And it was exactly at this moment that the significant thing happened -- if, indeed, it did happen....

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-04 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
3. The "policy" isn't just about the invasion.
It goes back to the cold war and our support for the Islamist militants against the Soviet backed government. As "undemocratic" as that government was, it tried to introduce reforms for women, education, etc. Which were anathema to the "true" believers. We cynically armed and trained them and the various warlords for our own purposes. After the Russians were driven out, we washed our hands of it all, and the country was destroyed by the fighting between the various warlords, drug smugglers, and religious fanatics. The Taliban stepped in and stopped most of the fighting and introduced a brutal theocracy which we ignored until Osama showed up and engineered 9/11. Then, and only then, did we step in. Now, Afghanistan is back to being ruled by the various warlords/drug runners who hold the actual power everywhere except in Kabul. The "government" in Kabul only survives because of the foreign troops.

My gradfather, as a Brit soldier, fought in Afghanistan back around the turn of the century against the same kind of warlords and fanatics.

That "policy" failed too.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. That's a valuable perspective
The historical view. I had in mind the invasion/reconstruction effort under the Bush administration. Not much of an improvement, eh?
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The Commie Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-04 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
6. Afganistan isn't a country...
it's a geographical expression. :shrug:
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-04 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. can you say more
I'm not sure I understand what you're thinking
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-04 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
8. About as good
as it is going to be.

Afghanistan was the most impossible place for us to go in the world.

There just isn't that much that we can do there, Certainly, more troops would be stupid as the last thing Afghans want is US soldiers around.

Ovrall, I guess I'm shocked that Karzai is still alive and there's any semblance at all of a government there.

I thought warlord civil war was the best we were going to get besides the Taliban. It may still turn out I'm right.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. So you thought it was a success?
;)

Funny that nobody thinks of it as a success.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I think the best we're going to get
out of Afghanistan is a friendly shaky government in control, and a small number of US troops trying to keep the bad guys off balance up in the mountains.

I just can't imagine any better than that.

Can you? What would success be? A liberal democracy with a multi-party functioning parliament? Maybe someday, but not soon in my opinion.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I can imagine better, but realistically, that sounds about right
Yes, success would basically be a multiparty democracy with effective constitutional safeguards for civil rights.

I think it's a stretch to consider the current situation a success by any measure, including militarily. After listening to the talk shows this morning, I figured my view must be rather extreme, and yet nobody else here seems to think much of our efforts there. Go figure.
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