Can you say C-R-U-C-I-F-I--X-I-O-N?

[The Backlash Cometh]

My daughter volunteered to help out at her friend's Southern Baptist Church and she said she was shocked at what they were telling the 5 year olds during Bible Study. They told the kids that some people did not believe that Jesus was the Son of God so they hunted him down and murdered him. They killed him by crucifying him. You know what crucifying means, don't you kids? It means driving nails through your hands.

My daughter said that she would have had nightmares if she had been a 5 year old and heard them say that. I told her that Southern Baptist were the worst at indoctrinating religion and that it was all part of a process that makes them docile as adults. By driving that fear in them at an early age, they make them feel like they also will be hunted down and murdered for their beliefs, so they had better stick together

Anyway, I was shocked too. My religious indoctrination was nothing like that and I was raised Catholic. I wonder, if the topic had not been Jesus, would it have been considered child abuse?

[Fenris]

1. Can you spell C-R-U-C-I-F-I-X-I-O-N?"

:D

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. I fail eye tests without my glasses on too.

:-)

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. I go to a conservative church and feel a bit nervous at times about

what my kids are learning, but so far I seem to be countering anything negative.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[pagerbear]

4. "There is a fountain filled with blood..."

Fundy hymn. Nice image, no?

[Pillowbiter]

15. I pissed off a religious girlfriend...

by pointing out all the gross and graphic hymns that were in her churches hymals. I mean, it's not like I put them in there. Funny thing is though I "took the hymnal home for more study" and used them as lyrics for my go-nowhere goth band.

PB

[pagerbear]

17. Are YOU washed in the blood of the lamb?

[Solly Mack]

32. I was but then I started to draw flies so I went back to soap & water

:shrug:

[Kool Kitty]

62. You made me laugh out loud.

Thanks, I really needed that! :)

[theboss]

48. Yay! Another Christians are stupid savages thread.

What would we do without these?

[The Backlash Cometh]

52. Um...I guessed you missed the fact that many of us posting to this

thread ARE Christians. We just take issue with those sects who instill fear in small children instead of actually teaching them Jesus's tenets, which primarily deals with love for one another.

[jedicord]

22. Back in the days when I went to church...

my pastor gave us teens a hint on how to stay awake during his sermon. After every title in the hymn book say "underneath the bed sheets". Truly hilarious, especially to someone young.

"Oh come all ye faithful" ... try for yourself!

"A fountain of blood" underneath the bed sheets is kinda gross, though.

[pagerbear]

42. We said "between the sheets"

Blessed be the tie the binds between the sheets
Oh, for a thousand tongues to sing between the sheets
A mighty fortress between the sheets
etc.

[silverlib]

54. I was taught to say that after fortunes in fortune cookies...

I never thought about it for hymns. That's a hoot!

[eagler]

5. I was raised Catholic too and

we heard exactly the same thing growing up.This might be a hard lesson but it is the truth.

[The Backlash Cometh]

10. I heard nothing like that at 5 years of age.

It was all about loving your neighbor and being kind to one another. Respect your parents and always remember that God is watching you.

[eagler]

12. At what age did you first see a crucifix?

NT

[The Backlash Cometh]

16. I think I was slapped with one at birth.

But seeing the statues is different than discussing it in graphic detail. 5 years of age is young. I would have waited until they were 8 years old.

[Warpy]

25. Maybe you forgot, or maybe you escaped the Irish church

In any case, we had coloring books with the crucifixion in them, and we heard that stuff at the age of 5. When I was 10, a stuffed shirt of a priest told us that women were supposed to die in childbirth to save the baby, because the baby might be a boy.

And they wonder why I fled.

[The Backlash Cometh]

27. Maybe you're right. I must have blocked it out.

Post traumatic shock syndrome.

[porphyrian]

6. "and that it was all part of a process that makes them docile as adults"

Don't believe the bit about docility, though that may be its intent. Some of the wildest people I know survived Baptist indoctrination. Too bad we can't get accurate abuse (both violent and sexual) statistics on this demographic, because I'm willing to bet they've got it hands down.

[Pathwalker]

21. AMEN! My indoctrination was a TOTAL failure.

The So. Baptists who "raised" me (kidnapped, actually) were some of the sickest, most violent people I have ever known. One Uncle was a member of a sick off-shoot that believed it was a father's duty to "teach his daughters HOW TO BE A WOMAN". Used the Bible to justify his incest of his daughter!!!! My Grampa - his father - beat the living crap out of him when he found out. They are a viscious bunch. Another thing they considered vital was breaking a person's spirit. Made it easier to re-mold you.

[Dookus]

7. hrmm

I was raised Catholic, and I'm sure I knew that Jesus was crucified by that age. It's a pretty central tenet of the faith.

[The Backlash Cometh]

11. The graphic detail was never discussed in such a manner.

We could see the statues in church to know how he died. We didn't need someone grinding the image in our minds at 5 years of age.

[KittyWampus]

50. Think Of Those Poor 5 Year Old Growing Up On Farms

chickens getting slaughtered. Heads chopped off, plucked AND THEN EATEN!

And those sheep MATING IN FULL SIGHT!

And cows GIVING BIRTH!

Rats GETTING SHOT!

Cats catching rabbits and leaving entrails and body parts behind!

The HORROR!

Life is messy.

[The Backlash Cometh]

59. I believe your attempt falls short of its mark when you consider

that very young children who happen to live off the farm are horrified when they learn where steaks come from.

Actually, I get horrified when I think about where hotdogs come from.

[Liberal Veteran]

8. What an odd definition of crucifixion.

Sorta leaves out the whole business of fastening someone to a cross.

Hell, if driving a nail through your hands is crucifying, then my father one self-crucified himself while building a table.

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. Remember, we're dealing with 5 year olds.

They may not understand being nailed to something, but they can surely understand what happens when something pierces their skin.

[DoYouEverWonder]

9. My elementry school was called Most Precious Blood

you can't get much grosser than that.

[The Backlash Cometh]

14. That is really bad.

Makes me think of the Black Eye Pea's song, "Where is the Love?"

[DoYouEverWonder]

23. We had to wear little emblems

over our hearts that said MPB in red letters. When you got to 8th grade, you found out what MPB really meant.

[Susang]

56. Mine was called "Precious Blood of Christ"

We called it PB for short, :-)

[Jokinomx]

18. Religious Indoctrinating

I adhere to no religion...However, I didn't want to my children..7 and 8 at the time...(Daughters) to think I that religions are all wrong. I let them go to church with their friends when they asked. They went a few Sundays to a Baptist church with no problems. Until they brought home literature about being a sinner and they would burn in hell if they didn't follow their teachings. I couldn't let them go and be subjected to such nonsense.

They have grown to be wonderful teenagers and are now in 11th and 12th grade. Both honor students and have very high self esteem. The self esteem issue was the number one issue that both my Wife and I worked very hard to maintain in their lives... and I was dumbfounded to see how they (Baptists) undermine that very important quality, by condemning them at such a young age.

Ironically... my oldest Daughter has a boyfriend that comes from a Family of Baptists. She now attends church regularly.... as its her choice now and I support her with that. We still have some interesting discussions on religion and philosphies... but.. if you love them let them be free. Its not easy.

[newyawker99]

20. Hi Jokinomx!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Jokinomx]

51. Thank You

I do appreciate the welcome...:-):toast:

[The Backlash Cometh]

29. You found a good balance.

I haven't personally been around too many Southern Baptist to know how they raise their kids, but your post did make me wonder if they're disguising sheer meanness under the premise of religion.

[SW FL Dem]

31. The same thing happened to my sister when she was 8,

My family used to attend a UCC church, but we had moved and there wasn't one on our new town. My parents let my sister go to church with a Southern Baptist friend. She came home in tears because she had been lectured that she and her whole family were going to HELL unless we joined their church. My parents decided then and there to check out the local liberal churches and began taking my sister on a regular basis.

[malatesta1137]

19. it's an old coercion tactic

of converting the weak. they frighten you to death by using images of physical violence. Are you sure Anne Coulter is not the one teaching this Bible Study?

[FlemingsGhost]

24. One doesn't die from driving nails into the hands.

Crucifixion slowly, and very painfully, results in suffocation. With arms raised in that position, one's diaphram fatigues to the point in which you are no longer able to breathe. Sometimes, it took several days. If you were lucky enough, they broke your legs to mercifully speed up the process.

If you are going to scare the kiddies, at least do it with facts ...

(edited for grammar)

[The Backlash Cometh]

28. You'd make one hell of a CCD teacher.

*

[Zero Gravitas]

26. Crucifixion?

Good... line on the left, one cross each.

[wadestock]

30. I see your point....

And you might want to read "holy crap I and II" posts I made....

We had the Mel Gibson movie....which I had no interest whatsoever seeing....and all sorts of religious rallying since 911....and those that generally ascribe to taking "serious action" to right the wrongs in the world generally feed on the notion of the Crucifixion and generally the "old testament" view of the bible....which is considerably more of a "god is wrathful" point of view.

How would Christ react to the general attitude of crosses everywhere and the notion that his death caused a more or less "finality" for our sins. I would imagine him saying just as he always did....think man think....

Indeed the strongest philosopher in terms of understanding the plight of man and his convoluted interpretation of religion at the time proposed the most dramatic theory of religion, which you could call the "theory of relativity" in terms of having people NOT use Icons and set believes to wrap themselves around the axles. He set the example that things are truly relative and we have to judge things on a case by case basis. Golden rules would be sufficient to guide us in a humane way, but beyond that....the hard core implementation of religion through set methodologies was really what he was trying to get us away from.

So in this regard, the dramatization of the nailing and the intent of it's message to the children would have been extremely anti-Christ.
He would have said....you completely missed the point....and instead instill in the children the love that would allow them to function humanely in the world.

[The Backlash Cometh]

33. Yep, that's how I remember religion.

Your comments just about wraps it up for me:

"So in this regard, the dramatization of the nailing and the intent of it's message to the children would have been extremely anti-Christ.
He would have said....you completely missed the point....and instead instill in the children the love that would allow them to function humanely in the world."

[ArkDem]

34. Bill Clinton is a Southern Baptist

[The Backlash Cometh]

38. Probably where he learned to live a double life.

What does it say in his book?

[tjwash]

35. Funny story about Southern Baptists.

Growing up in Tennessee, there was a southern baptist church right in the neighborhood, which would put on an annual Easter show. This show would consist of a staged crucifixion, where a guy dressed up like Jesus in would be "nailed" to a tree in his diapers (still a little chilly that time of year there), with 2 others also in their diapers and on crosses on both sides. All the time the preacher would be there with a bullhorn shouting out bible scriptures, and phrases like "I will be back", and "I shall arise from the dead!"

Looking back years later, I can not help but wonder, what the hell do devil worshipers do to top something like that?

[The Backlash Cometh]

39. I almost feel sacrilegious for laughing.

BTW, whatever qualified as blasphemy? That was the one thing I remembered that scared the hell out of me. The sisters said blasphemy was the one sin that God would never forgive. Then when I asked what qualified as blasphemy, they said blasphemy was not listening when God wanted to tell you something. Since I was the class day dreamer, I figured it was inevitable that at some point in my life He would catch me when I was not paying attention and I'd be cursed through eternity.

[mitchum]

36. Instilling guilt and obligation over Jesus' "gift" is a central tenet...

My reply always was, "If it was a gift, why do I owe him anything in return?"

[Lisa0825]

37. Southern Baptist churches have a lot of variety among them....

I belonged to Southern Baptist Churches in Waco, OKC, and Dallas which were very moderate. All had women as associate pastors or pastors at various points in their timeline. All had Sunday School classes which included classes that discussed current issues and how to relate to them with your faith. We talked about abortion, the death penalty, etc. Now I am in the Houston area, and I have not been able to find a nice, moderate SBC, but I go denomination-shopping anyway. I believe in going to whichever church I feel at home at, regardless of denomination.

Anyway, bottom line is all SBCs are NOT created equally.


edited to add:
This is one reason why there has been a lot of fighting within the Southern Baptist Convention, and the Baptist General Convention of Texas. At least one of my former churches left the Southern Baptist Convention, and joinged the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, which was basically a place for moderate churches that wished to leave the SBC, rather than keep trying to fight it out.

[The Backlash Cometh]

41. Yes, I do recall there has been turmoil within the SBCs

I was wondering if the same thing was about to happen in the Catholic Church until the Pope announced his voting edict.

[Blue Wally]

44. each church.......

The Baptist faith is a "congregational" religion where each church is supreme and are loosely affiliated in a "convention". The congregation owns the church and can run it the way they see fit. They can sack the preacher and get one more in tune with ttheir beliefs. Each church by consensus arrives at their own comfort level of fundamentalism.

In contrast, in the "hierarchial" churches (Catholic, Epicopalian, Methodist, Lutheran) the national conference owns the church and assigns the priest/preacher which provides a muchg greater degree of uniformity.

[The Backlash Cometh]

46. God's House is not incorporated.

Just a minor observation.

[Kanary]

63. minor nit correction

Lutherans, Episcopalians and Methodists aren't "assigned" a pastor........ the congregation/parish "tries out" various candidates, and decides among them who they will "call".

As far as I know, the Catholics are the only ones who are assigned........ maybe the EAstern Orthodox, also.

Kanary

[Djinn]

40. I think it's not a good thing

to expose kids to religion at all until they're old enough to make up their own minds. Or if you want your kids to learn about religion you should give them knowledge of ALL religions - personally don't know how it can be viewed as anything other than brainwashing otherwise.

NB - not intended as a bash on religious folks - just my POV

[drdigi420]

43. Raising a child to believe in gods IS child abuse. (eom)

[Roaming]

45. Usually the more graphic details of Christ's death are imparted

in later Sunday School classes, when the children are older. I'm surprised they are doing this in kindergarten. However, I don't think there is anything wrong with teaching young children that Christ died -- it was for the love of the world.

[The Backlash Cometh]

47. Your thinking is in line with my thinking.

Saying that he died for our sins, until they're old enough to handle the graphic details.

[wmccarver]

49. Question...

can anyone explain to me how it came to be that Christians, who need Jesus to die on the cross to legitimize their religion, hate rather than praise those who they feel were responsible for his crucifixion?

[maveric]

53. If Jesus came back right now and professed what he did 2000 yrs ago...

these same fundies wouldnt believe him due to his liberal leanings, and would crucify him again.
These assholes forget what the true messages were.

[The Backlash Cometh]

60. They would dismiss him based on his clothing only.

*

[Swamp Rat]

55. This is child abuse.

I cannot speak as a parent, but this is institutionalized child abuse. Indoctrinating kindergartners in this manner is sadistic. This behavior is not limited to one church, denomination or religion.

[lazarus]

57. I prefer to call it

The "crucifiction".

This sort of indoctrination is just wrong.

[Kimber Scott]

58. One time I went to the Assembly of God church and they scared the shit

out of me. I was 12, or 13. I went with a friend to some service on a Wednesday night. After listening to all the screaming and hollering - one guy actually said Jesus had come and sat on his bed the night before - and hellfire and damnation I was nearly in tears. This is when they said I could be "saved." Well, hell. I figured I'd better, or I was going to burst into flames right there. So, I got saved. Afterwards, we went into the Sunday school room and made some things out of felt, ate cookies and drank KoolAid. It was real nice, after all the darkness in the other room and everybody was so much friendlier.

When I got home, my parents were already asleep. Being intent on letting them know I wasn't going to hell anymore, I wrote a note: "I'm SAVED!!!" and left in on the kitchen table.

My mother must have gotten up for a drink, or something in the middle of the night. I awoke to her screaming, "What the HELL is this?" She was waving my note.

"I got saved." I said.

"Saved my ass! You want to get saved? You want to talk to the 'Almighty?' Then you walk out in the desert tomorrow and you talk to Him. You don't need to be SAVED! Saved from what? The only thing you need to be saved from is lunatics like this." She shoved the paper higher in the air. "If I'd have known they were going to save you, I wouldn't have let you go." With that she closed the door.

I did walk out into the desert the next morning and I connected with something out of love, not fear and I thank that something everyday for my mother.

Small children should not be sent off to strange churches.

[The Backlash Cometh]

61. "People should not be sent to strange churches"

Amen. I use to really want to go to my friend's church because they would go out on retreats to the beaches. We didn't have a lot of means, so it was a very seductive opportunity to do something fun. Well, I can't remember it very well, but I do remember someone in the cabin telling me that once she saw the devil sitting at the end of her bed. Well, that was just too kookie for me.

[Kimber Scott]

66. LOL! Yep, the devil on the bed thing will get you every time!

nt

[Sugarbleus]

64. I was raised in Protestant style churches, mostly AOG

I didn't have anything as grueling as that forced on me but I think I can say the whole family was "indoctrinated"...how else can one put it really?

I no longer attend any church. I still have a belief system that I am working out on my own.

There is one trend I find extremely alarming and it dove tails with what the author here is saying. It's about the protestant churches (not sure about Catholic or others) making it a mandate to "GO AFTER" the Youth. They have changed the music in services. There's all this "pop style" xtian music out there. There are camps and abstinence programs and sports leagues and "xtian entertainment" and on and on..

I don't like it. It's like religious boot camp. I don't know why I didn't see it before. Since GW came into office, I did a blistering amount of research on him and his "religious base". I learned horrific things about what I used to believe in. I discovered that MOST of these fundie/evangelical types of churches are on the same page when it comes to proselytizing the young. It's creepy.

My spouse continues to go to church once in awhile to feel connected in some way; I dropped out years ago. At one point, a friend of his wanted to pay my grandson's way to a church camp and I said no. That guy CAME UNGLUED ON ME. Ranted and raved; was very disrespectful to me. I know why now. It is my firm belief (and it's an old fashioned one) that if you are going to follow a religion with your family, YOU should be the one to explain that religion to your children NOT the church leaders. Tell your kids what you believe, not what the "church" believes--the church could, and has been, wrong. Let the kids make up their own minds when they are ready.

O8)

[kskiska]

65. I was Catholic and the nuns told us horrific stories

about the lives of the saints and how they were martyred. I had a book with pictures of each one. St. Lucy had been complimented by a man for her beautiful eyes. So as to reject vanity of any sort, she promptly removed them. The picture shows her holding a plate with two eyeballs on it. St. Simon, I think, is portrayed with numerous arrows/spears penetrating his body.

While preparing for First Communion (at age 6), we were told of a little girl who was about to receive the Lord for the first time and was so overwhelmed that she died of joy right there in the church. That was very reassuring.

[Cat Atomic]

67. Y'know, I wouldn't have believed that shit either.

Seriously- some wanderer comes up and tells you he's the son of God?

That happens to me twice a month personally, and I know how *I* respond: I offer a polite smile, nod, and keep walking. I've yet to join their flocks.

I don't crucify them of course, but I suppose that was just the ancient world's version of the polite smile and nod.