The Congress shall have power...

[ulysses]

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articlei.html#section8

When was the last time that the Congress really gave a rat's fat ass whether or not it was consulted about taking the nation to war? Which was the last war in which we were involved that actually gained Congress' explicit approval via a clear vote for war?

WWII. 1941.

If we're going to allow the president kingly powers in declaring war anyway, should we not make it explicit in the Constitution?

[neoteric lefty]

1. The congress just gladly gave over its

constitutional responsibilities over to Bush with the IWR. I have never seen mature, intelligent adults just hand over power so blindly and so happily. Blows my mind.

[shraby]

2. There were some qualifiers in their

vote though, it's just that Bush ignored them.

[ulysses]

3. THERE'S a shock.

it's just that Bush ignored them.

Folks across the land are fainting dead away at the very idea.

[neoteric lefty]

4. those qualifiers don't mean much

if the Congress refuses to act on them. They were given a job when they became part of the US legislature and they passed it on to someone else.

[F.Gordon]

6. Qualifers?

Sorry, don't mean to jump on ya' with everyone else. But....

(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--
(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and
(2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorist and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.

No one questioned his "determination", but then again, bush* didn't give anyone time to question it. Nor has bush* specifically addressed his "determination" since he "determined" to do whatever the fuck he wanted to do.....

[FloridaPat]

9. The invasion was based on the 9-11 authorization, not the Iraq

one. That's why he kept trying to tie Sadam to 9-11. He had US AND UN approval to do whatever he thought best. This is critical in case he and the gang ever get pulled up on war crime charges.

[ulysses]

11. 9/11 authorization...

?

[Mechatanketra]

13. No, it wasn't, Pat.

The invasion was based on the Iraq War Resolution. The determination he sent claimed that the war wouldn't interfere with the hunt for terrorists up to and including the 9/11 culprits, but he went to war using the IWR.

[F.Gordon]

17. Ummmmm

The "determination" I quoted was from the Iraq War Resolution.

This is a "determined" bush* making his official "determination" the day he also said.... My fellow citizens, at this hour, American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger.

Consistent with section 3(b) of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 (Public Law 107-243), and based on information available to me, including that in the enclosed document, I determine that:

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic and other peaceful means alone will neither (A) adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq nor (B) likely lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and

(2) acting pursuant to the Constitution and Public Law 107-243 is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030319-1.html

The word "including" could be considered a legal divider...I aint no attorney....don't know. Anyhoo, I still agree with Pat. The inference is that Iraq "planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001." Whether or not this is an issue......don't we have this bunch of people called Congress? On second thought, nevermind. I think Congress was disbanded or shutdown...or sumtin'.

[Mechatanketra]

18. Sorry if I wasn't clear here.

I was responding to Pat's statement that "the invasion was based on the 9-11 authorization, not the Iraq one."

The weasel words in Bush's go-letter are "is consistent with". Again, this isn't claiming that Iraq was the 9/11 culprit or even involved with them. It says that attacking Iraq won't disrupt or interfere with "necessary actions against international terrorists".

Do I think Bush intended this to be taken as a link between 9/11 and Saddam? Oh, hell yeah. But that's not exactly what it really says.

And if Congress was going to do anything about this, they'd have ... well ... done something about it. Other than cheerlead, or at best indulge in back-seat driving ("Oh, we don't care that you went to war with no justifiable cause, we just don't think you're winning fast enough.")

[amjsjc]

16. You're suggesting...

...that Congress is composed of mature, intelligent adults?

[HawkerHurricane]

5. December 10th, 1941.

The United States Congress declared that a state of war exists between the United States of America and the Empire of Japan.

We did not declare war on Germany (and it's allies) because Roosevelt did not ask for one; he feared that if he had he wouldn't get the near unaminous vote he got against Japan.

Germany and Italy would declare war on the United States, and we would acknowledge the declaration. The United States was the ONLY country Germany formally declared war on.

[ulysses]

7. yup.

As a side note, I don't think I've ever mentioned that I've always considered the Hurricane a prettier plane than the Spitfire...:)

[HawkerHurricane]

8. in response to side note...

I didn't pick it because it's pretty. I use it because it did the job (Battle of Britain) even though it was 'second best' to the Supermarine Spitfire.

[ulysses]

10. aha! is there a political point here?

:)

[HawkerHurricane]

12. Probably

Politically, I often settle for 'second best that gets the job done'.

And the only person I agree with 100% of the time politically is ME. Every time I go in the voting booth I compromise. And it wouldn't matter if I voted Democratic, Socialist, Green, or Libertarian... in some way, all political parties disagree with me... therefore, I feel no guilt in saying that I compromise my beliefs by voting for the man who I feel offends me least... the fact that he's also the one most likely to beat Bushco is gravy.

[jpgray]

14. Too much profit in war for Congress to say 'boo', is my guess

Based on that and the media 'coverage', it's not too difficult to find evidence that gives this theory credence. Still, a good twenty-three senators opposed the resolution for various reasons, and many of those who voted for it at least expressed qualifications.

But really, on the part of the Democrats it seems to have been part of, in my view, a failed strategy for the 2002 elections--take away the 'patriotism' issue. I think it's fair to say that strategy was a failure.

[Yupster]

15. This open flaunting of the Constitution IMO

started when Lincoln gave each state a quota of regiments to fill to quell the rebellion in the 7 cotton states.

I don't think any president has cared about Congress's authority at least since then.