Fahrenheit 9/11

[mermaid]

For me, personally, I make no bones about which side of the political spectrum I am on, and the movie makes no bones about this, either. Certainly, what Michael Moore chose to present, and HOW he chose to present it...certainly lends itself to reinforcing a political agenda and viewpoint that happens to agree with my own.

However, there is nothing, in spite of the yowls of protest from the Bushites...there is nothing in this movie that I, with an objective point of view, find to be factually inaccurate.

I hear that a different filmmaker, one Michael Wilson, of whom I have never heard, is planning on making a rebuttal movie to this one, basically painting a very different picture. I, in all liklihood, admit that I will probably not go see that one, and have no interest in seeing it...after all, if it paints anything other than a picture of Bush as the Devil Incarnate, it must be lies.


In other news, Bush's job approval rating has fallen, I heard on the radio this morning, to an all-time low of 42%!! WOO-HOO!! We might finally be able to get rid of the scumbag in November!! Then again, maybe not. I still fully expect Bush to cheat. And with Black Box Voting, Liebold handling our so-called "free elections" and Jeb still in power down in Flori-DUHHHH, I still remain fearful of November.

If I could be sure this would be a free, fair, legitimate election, I'd have no fear that Bush might win. He wouldn't. I fear the lies, the cheating, and other things I expect this collection of dinosaurs from the Reagan era to resort to to maintain their ever-weakening grasp on power...and reality itself!

The strain is starting to show itself, in the form of one Veep dropping an F-bomb. Can you imagine what woulda happened in the press if Al Gore had dropped an F-Bomb on, say, Newt Gingrich, back when Gore was Veep?

I also fear Nader's latest attempt. Why can't this man drop it? By running, he is making it easier for the man who poses the greatest danger for the causes he espouses, to get ELECTED (you can't get RE-elected when you never were elected in the first place!) He is a definite stick in our spokes. And he is very dangerous.

I only hope that HALF the people who saw F911 will get off their butts and VOTE this November. We have to win by such a wide margin that cheating will be impossible!! Because if they think they can get away with it, they will!

In short, I'm terrified that something will happen, something will be done, by the neo-fascists who are currently running this country...to make it possible for them to maintain, and even strengthen, tnhier slipping grip on the reins of power. They are power-mad demons who will stop at nothing to gain and maintain power.

2004 may be our last chance to reclaim our country...and to take the rancid bits of what once was a great country...and make it great once again! After 2004, I fear we have no chance at all...this is literally the life or death of the United States as we know it at stake in November...and I really wish Nader wouldn't stick his oar in and muck things up!

On another note...anyone out there in a relatively warm, English-speaking country know if their nation is accepting applications for refugee/political asylum status? I'm seriously considering getting the hell out of this country if Bush manages to remain in the White House.

[lovedems]

1. Someone posted the trailer for MM Hates America.

From what I saw on the trailer, it looks like this guy is trying in vain to get an interview with MM. It looks to me that MM hates America because he won't grant Michael Wilson an interview.

It doesn't appear to take on any facts or I would suspect the trailer would present one or two. :shrug:

[jobycom]

2. Isn't a rebuttal to F-9/11 redundant, since the media does it 24/7?

Between Fox, CNN, MSNBC, Rush Limbaugh, Neil Boortz, a dozen other radio hosts, the NYT and WP, and just about every "local" channel in America, the Republican hagiographical viewpoint is rather well represented.

What amazes me is that one two hour movie is able to have any impact, considering the thousands of hours each year that the alternate viewpoint is forced on us. What it means is that the mainstream viewpoint is so out of touch with reality that people drop it the moment they hear one whisper of the truth.

[Wickerman]

4. exactly!

that is what I have been telling family and friends all week.

:thumbsup:

[G_j]

3. funny thing is

I think MM went easy on Bush. Many of us here have access to evidence
that would be even more damning to Bush and his buddies than Moore presented in the movie. I think though that he probably went just far enough to appeal to a general audience.

And yes, I expect something nasty to happen before the election...

[Kazak]

5. Heh, that's what I thought...

Much more damning stuff he *could* have put into the film. PNAC, anyone?

[MsUnderstood]

6. The bushites aren't just screaming LIES LIES LIES

In several interviews, articles, reviews, the word PROPOGANDA is used to describe the film.

To many the word propoganda is associated with negativity and misinformation. By putting the word F-911 and propoganda, these "journalists" are able to discredit the film without discussing the truth inside of it. This is not propoganda, this is an editorialin the form of a film with 3 main pieces: Opinion, Personal History, and facts. We constantly read and hear Editorals with this same structure from media every day. Talk shows are generally one big editorial that is low on facts and big on personal history.

As citizens, we have had to learn how to dissect these items. For example, in the F911 movie these are the pieces:

FACTS: Archival footage of George Bush, the Bush Administration, documents. Cannot be disputed.

Opinion: Micheal Moore's narrative will sometimes veer from describing the scene to interpreting the scene. You know it is being interpreted because he uses words as Maybe and Possibly, allowing you to wonder with him could this be true. He is not saying "the president thought this." He is saying "maybe the president thought this"

Personal History: Soldiers, Family of Soldiers, Iraqis shown telling their own personal assessment of the situation. Can't be true or untrue because who can deny feelings?

[jobycom]

7. To be fair

You can string facts together to create a lie. That is the point of propoganda, and our mainstream media (and Rush and his clones) do it all the time. The lie is in the logical connections, or sometimes in the ommissions, not in the facts themselves. Just because Moore has film footage of Bush joking with "haves and have mores" doesn't mean they own Bush, for instance. It's not proven as fact, but it is an opinion supported by facts. The other side could make an argument that he isn't, and present other facts to support their argument. That wouldn't be a lie, either, if they were careful with their facts, it would just be an opinion.

But no one I've seen has successfully disputed a single fact. No one can deconstruct his arguments to prove they were presented unfairly, or constructed using bad logical connections. No one has shown where any of Moore's claims are not supported by his facts.

In other words, they are trying to claim that Moore's opinions-- the positions he states in the film and backs up with evidence-- are lies in themselves. One can deconstruct an opinion to prove it was built on faulty logic or on lies, and that makes the opinion wrong. But no one has done that. They claim he is lying ONLY because they don't agree with him.

The right wing media in this country is so unused to having anyone oppose them that they don't even know how to defend themselves when they are attacked. Rather than use facts or logic, they just shout "Liar!" and expect people to accept that. This is why Moore has them so upset. He's not even that good at proving his points, but the Republicans are so far from supportable truth these days that even a mild logical argument destroys them and leaves them shouting like children.

[MsUnderstood]

9. Very well said

My daughter, who in her defense is only 11, was disturbed that John Stewart would say on Larry King live "I don't agree with everything in the movie (F911)."

She wondered why Stewart would publically critisize a movie where the overall message was against the president when Stewart is overall against the president.

This was a great opportunity to train her AWAY from the fallacy in logic of "you are with us or against us" mindset.

Until the media can find its intelligence (probably hidden with Iraq's WMDs) we are not going to find substantive information against the movie, only weak arguements of "this is wrong because we said so!"

[NRaleighLiberal]

8. Just found this - see the link - utter crap

http://biz.yahoo.com/ibd/040628/issues01_1.html

Just saw the above in Yahoo...front page of the business site. Incredibly ignorant and shallow!