I am personally against abortion but

[Cheswick2.0]

So I was talking to my friend who had an abortion and I told her that I didn't think we should tell women what to do, but I personally think abortion is immoral. She called me a bad liberal.

I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND. Am I a bad liberal? :cry:

[Cocoa]

1. bad liberal!

bad liberal!

:spank:

[Cheswick2.0]

5. Do you think it was the obnoxious moralizing that made her mad?

I am so sad. I just don't know why my friend got mad at me.

[Spinzonner]

8. Because you implicitly called her immoral

As a friend, you should have withheld your judgment or couched it in ways that were less accusatory and categorizing - such as saying you would not do so yourself.

[Cheswick2.0]

10. so telling her to keep her legs crossed

and to stop using abortion as birth control was a mistake?
I mean, I said I was against making abortion illegal....isn't that enough to make me a good liberal?

[hlthe2b]

12. I'm guessing...

this thread is meant to be satirical... OR

a vent for your irritation at your friend's stupidity?

[Cheswick2.0]

18. ....

;)

[Spinzonner]

16. I dont know everything you said

or how you said it - which may mean more than the 'immoral' aspect, but when - as you said:

" ... I personally think abortion is immoral"

coupled with the fact that she chose to have one, you accused her of an immoral act in your eyes. It's simply not a friend-like thing to say.

I suggest that her response of calling you a bad liberal may have been a way of attacking back at you for something without admitting she was personally hurt by your accusation.

('keep your legs crossed' sure isnt friendly sounding either)

[hlthe2b]

9. I know where you are coming from, however...

I think you might have been a little more sensitive to your friend's fear of being morally derided. I would have said that I believe fervently in a woman's right to choose, while also believing that some women would not find it to be the right decision for themselves. I then would have added that I would likely have been one of those latter women. If pressed, I might have commented on later fears of infertility from an abortion-related compication or even on a fear of making a decision that would leave me forever wondering "what if....."

I don't think it was necessary to say you found it immoral (or repulsive) or any other highly charged and judgemental language...


Good liberal, but maybe a bit insensitive as a friend?

[outinforce]

25. More Likely It Was Not The Moralizing

but the obnoxious way in which you might have done it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. my projection radar is maxing out

[Forkboy]

58. pot,meet kettle

[Worst Username Ever]

2. Wasn't this already posted?

[outinforce]

26. Yes.

but our friend cheswick is just having some fun.

The humor, though, does seem a bit coontrived.

Rather like watching a really bad Jerry Lewis film.

[SW FL Dem]

3. No You do not have to approve of abortion to be a good liberal

I don't think I could ever have gone through with an abortion, but I will fight like hell to give every woman the right to make her own decision.

[outinforce]

28. YES YOU DO!

Oh, yes you do! You MUST approve of all abortions -- at all times, and for any and all reason -- YOU MUST!

Otherwise, we wi ll take your Good Liberal Card and stamp "aborted" all over it.

Then we will place your name in The Databank.

If you even dare suggest that even one abortion was not good thing, we will drum you out of the Organizations of Good Liberals.

You Have Been Warned.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. Prove it with any thread ever done on this board...we asked you to keep

your professional political agenda off our body and our rights and leave it to us and our physicians. Nobody EVER asked you to promote, support, or advocate FOR abortion. If you can prove we did, I'd be happy to concede the point.

[Mandate My Ass]

4. LOL

It gets tiresome, doesn't it?

[Cheswick2.0]

6. yes it do

:7

[hlthe2b]

7. PRO-Choice DOES NOT EQUATE to PRO-ABORTION...

it simply implies the decision is not one for government to decide, but sould remain with the woman. This is part of why we face so many repercussions relative to the abortion issue, (especially with socially moderate independents and swing voters) as Libs have allowed REPUGS to define the issue as "FOR or AGAINST abortion." Had we adopted a pure libertarian stance about it (not government's role to decide on behalf of the individual) and stuck with that argument against government intrusiveness on personal private issues, I don't think we would be so on the defense as it seems we are now...


Personal dedision is just that. We can find abortion personally unacceptable, but still favor the right of others to view it differently and to have the choice left to the individual woman.

[JDPriestly]

20. Criminalization

There are two issues here:

1. How to treat a friend who has had an abortion: Her decision probably wasn't easy. Be kind, not judgmental.

2. Public policy on abortion: The issue is criminalization, not "choice" or "life."

Even before Roe v. Wade, women had abortions. The rich and well-connected called something else and had competent doctors perform them. Other women had abortions that were unsafe and performed by incompetents. All of the procedures were illegal, and the people involved in having or performing them risked criminal prosecution.

The abortion issue is a red herring. Whether you approve of abortion or not, criminalizing it will not work. Laws criminalizing it would be extremely difficult and expensive to enforce. When women start dying or being maimed by incompetent abortionists, the public outcry will be worse than the outcry about abortion. Any politician that votes to criminalize abortion will regret it.

[noahmijo]

11. I hate abortion

But that doesn't mean I insist my beliefs to become the law of the land. I don't think any woman should be forced to give her life in order to raise the child of a rapist or of an accidental one night stand if she doesn't want to.

Honestly I'd be willing to bet that you ask any pro-choice person and ask them how "proud" they would be to have an abortion. Point being I don't think anyone HAPPILY supports someone else having an abortion, or is proud to walk around and say "Hey everybody I just had an abortion yay!"

I think the Neo-Cons try to paint pro-choice types as such types that support the right of someone having an abortion proudly and gleefully, but I think it's one of those things where when the subject comes up to pro-choicers we all sort of have the "well it's an ugly thing to do (have an abortion) and it's never a happy moment...but taking away the right will only make matters worse"

[Cheswick2.0]

14. Maybe if women have abortions for other reasons besides rape or health

there is some kind of act of contrition they could do to feel better about their immoral choice.

[Trajan]

13. Perhaps you just have bad friends ...

[Cheswick2.0]

67. susang says I don't have any friends.

:cry: :7

[Cleita]

15. No. I thought this is what pro-choice was about.

I too would never have an abortion myself had I been in that situation, but I don't think any woman should be denied a safe, therapeutic abortion if she needs or wants one. Also, we really don't know what we would do if circumstances happened to us that have happened to other women who have sought an aboriton. It's not our place to judge, nor to impose our standards on others who don't think the same as us.

Also, I truly believe that an embryo is not a sentient human being yet if it can't live outside of it's host or mother. This fact makes it easier for me to accept abortion.

[DemExpat]

21. That is the problem for me....

Also, I truly believe that an embryo is not a sentient human being yet if it can't live outside of it's host or mother. This fact makes it easier for me to accept abortion.

I personally truly believe that a foetus is a sentient human in development long before it can live outside its mother. This belief (not fact for me) makes it impossible for me to really accept abortion after the early weeks....:-(

DemEx

[welshTerrier2]

17. "Should the government be just like me?"

this is the question that i frequently pose to religious people i talk to who oppose gay marriage ...

they explain to me that their religion teaches that homosexuality is a sin ...

and i explain to them that their religious beliefs should be guaranteed by our system of government ... that no one should be able to force them to do anything that violates their religious beliefs ...

but, having said that, they should not have a right to impose their religious beliefs on anyone else ...

we need to learn that there is a difference between holding a belief and choosing to impose your belief on everyone else ...

without respecting the right of the individual to make their own choice, we jeopardize the freedoms of everyone ...

[Nederland]

51. No

we need to learn that there is a difference between holding a belief and choosing to impose your belief on everyone else ...

No, we need to understand that sometimes a belief gets codified into law, and sometimes it doesn't. The decision on when it gets into law and when it doesn't is a decision made by our society at large in accordance with democractic principles. For example, I believe that gay people should have the right to get married and I'm perfectly happy to impose that belief on everybody else.

[David__77]

19. Well, maybe she doesn't like being called immoral.

I understand why she would be upset. You basically said that you consider her decision to have an abortion "immoral." That's fine to voice your opinion, but I wouldn't be surprised at an adverse response.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

22. no, but you sound insensitive

to tell somebody who had an abortion that you are against it, is hardly very nice. its also judgmental. i think jesus was against human being on moral high horses. i could be wrong though.

[outinforce]

29. Oh, Please.

Talk about "moral high horses".

Talk about being judgmental.

Here you are telling our wonderful, dear, sweet, friend cheswick that she is being insensitive and judgmental.

What a truly terrible thing to say!

Why, all cheswick was doing was sharing with her her true feelings.

I'm pretty sure that if cheswick's friend was hurt be something cheswick said, she has gotten over it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. but cheswick does not know me

can some random strangers opinion you specifically ask for really hurt you? i dont think so. but a friend that you confided you had an abortion to, who then calls you immoral, is a different story.

and yes i was being judgemental...


i'm assuming most of this is in sarcasm (since i stay out of GD: it may not have been a fair assumption)

[outinforce]

32. cheswick? sarcastic?

I don't think so.

If she is being sarcastic, she'd better not quit her day job, if ya get my drift.

[Cheswick2.0]

36. maybe the part where I called her a vacume and leg rest fetishist

was a bit over the top. :cry:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. maybe it was!

[outinforce]

43. Maybe It Was When

you suggested that she had some sort of envy -- dead fetus envy, perhaps?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. It's always something..either it's dead fetus envy or vagina envy and

big time mommy issues and outright misogeny...guess one just has to firmly plant their feet somewhere.

[Cheswick2.0]

65. I vote for abortion

one that only removed the right brain. Though I do remember something about mommy issues being mentioned in the past.

[Cleita]

49. In Jesus's time infanticide and abortion were common

practices and no one even raised an eyebrow anymore than many of our anti-abortion fundamentalists do when unwanted kittens are euthanized. Not only were abortions part of the skills a midwife had, the practice of abortions was between the mother and the midwife. No other persons needed to be consulted. Abortion incidentally wasn't condemned by the Catholic Church until the eighteenth century. It was regarded as a private family matter.

In Jesus's time the father of a family could decide even at the birth of his child whether he would allow it to live or not. He could euthanize a child if it was born defective or even if he decided he wanted no more children or maybe no more children of one sex. Nowhere in the Bible is there a provision for unborn children or even born ones who had to rely on their mothers or a wet nurse for milk, so denying them that sustenance was an acceptable practice for euthanizing unwanted babies. Also, they would put them out in the woods or countryside for wild animals to kill and eat.

Okay before I get flamed, I do not agree with the practice, but historically this is what happened. Until these pro-life people come up with a solution to save all these embryos in petri dishes and later test tubes and then raising and them to adulthood, I don't think they have a right to make anyone have a baby they don't want to have.

[Blue_Roses]

23. immoral by who's standards?

Immorality is a subjective term. What's immoral to some isn't immoral to others. Abortion is such a hot topic that no matter which way it spins, it still lands directly on the rights of the woman going through it. NO ONE ELSE MATTERS. It is a choice that is often hard to make and needs to made with the help of professionals who know what the hell they are talking about. So much misinformation is given about abortion.

If she felt confident enough to confide in you, then maybe she just needed your friendship and support at this trying time. It doesn't necessarily mean you have to agree with her decision, but if she's a friend and you disagree on such a personal issue, then sometimes "silence is truely golden.":)

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. You obviously lack compassion

for people who post reasonable questions. Does that make you a bad liberal? Or just a bad listener?

[Liberal Classic]

27. Of course not

I'm sure she's going through a rough patch, and maybe she was looking for validation. How can you be a bad liberal if you are doing what you believe is right?

[Susang]

31. Oh Cheswick!

Come on, we know you don't have any friends! :evilgrin:

Now get back in that bikini before this thread gets locked! ;-)

[Cheswick2.0]

33. Wwaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I try to be a good liberal friend and this is the thanks I get.

:7

[Donkeyboy75]

34. It has never been explained to me why it's wrong to be against abortion

personally, but be very pro-choice as a public policy. My wife and I talked a lot about this while we were dating, and she told me she'd never have one. But...she would fight anyone who tried to take that right away from women. What's wrong with that? :shrug:

[Cheswick2.0]

35. nothing as long as you are very very careful to make that qualifying

statement to anyone who might get the idea that you were personally immoral enough to want an abortion yourself. It's great to be pro-choice but very very important that first you tell people that YOU wouldn't do it yourself. You do need to make that moral distinction between you, the open minded person, and those actually immoral enough to have an abortion.

[Donkeyboy75]

37. This is silly.

Saying I wouldn't do it means that I, for WHATEVER reason, wouldn't do it. That doesn't mean I am making a moral judgement. Perhaps there are other reasons I wouldn't do it. Get off the high horse.

[Cheswick2.0]

38. no no really

It's kind of like when you have to say "I will be voting for Kerry in november" before you suggest that he might be wrong about something. You don't want people to think you are a traitor or something.
I think it is very important to make qualifying statements so people don't get the wrong idea about you and lump you in some group you don't want to be part of.

[Donkeyboy75]

39. So, if one is publicly pro-choice,

they should shut their fucking mouths about their own personal preference? Yes ma'am!

[Cheswick2.0]

66. I am agreeing with you!

In reality disclaimers are bullshit. Free yourself....unless of course I am right about your need to proclaim your own personal higher moral standards and separate yourself for the immoral people who would have an abortion.

[West Coast Democrat]

40. Deciding whether or not to become a parent.....

when faced with the scenario of an unwanted pregnancy is a monumentally important decision. There are just too many factors entering into it, and in my opinion, "moralizing" about it is not appropriate.

[matcom]

41. no... BUT

if you have ever had to walk through 30 angry people who spit on you, kick you and call you a murdurer because you are 19, without a job and *sigh* whatever you can never know the heartache that goes with the decision.

when your 'S.O.' is called a WHORE and a WITCH and everything else....

you aren't a bad liberal but let me tell you first hand....

i hope every one of the fuckwads standing in that parking lot dies a slow, painful, miserable death and i hope it started 15 years ago.

that is ALL i will say about this

[Endangered Specie]

44. No... what makes you liberal is your pro-choice (for others) stance...

You are just excersizing your right of choice (in this case, against it).

Im myself dont particularly like abortion from an ethical standpoint... but, when it comes to other women... its none of my f***ing business.

[Blue_Roses]

45. I think I just fell

hook line and sinker ...damn I'm naive:cry:

[Cheswick2.0]

47. Hi devrc

Read the thread. You are in good company.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. OK I feel good about myself now...I've suppressed the urge all day

:hi: For the record on reproductive rights, while I don't agree with the medical necessity of giving a 90 year old man a boner via viagara, I would never alter legislation to satisfy that disagreement even though if he impregnates someone knowing the odds on his mortality rate it can have a very negative effect on society.

[Cheswick2.0]

52. I have to agree with you on that viagra thing

:hi:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. oh and for the record...you're a bad liberal..all fiesty and everything

and that's good ;)

[Cheswick2.0]

60. I have been a bad bad girl

:hi:

[put out]

56. But, but, couldn't we all

just cross our legs? All the time? And learn how to walk that way? Driving might be a bit of a problem. But I have a wonderful vision of almost all people doing kind of a cheerful scissors skip going about their daily business! Hey! And in this way we will know those who are walking in the normal manner are wishing to have intercourse for the purposes of procreation!

Hey! I'm going to practice starting right now, and I don't give a Cheney what my neighbors say!;-)

Sarcasm aside, my respect to all those who have made decisions of this nature. I cannot know your struggle.

[Cheswick2.0]

59. I don't care if you are make or female. I think I have a huge crush

We seem to be in perfect agreement. I am practicing my scissors skip as I type. I hope it doesn't cause chafing.

:hi:

[Misunderestimator]

57. Oh YES!!!!

Damn... well f*cking put! :)

[ScreamingMeemie]

55. No. There'd be too many of us "bad" liberals then. I am against abortion..

for myself. Those who choose this option deal with the consequences themselves. Otherwise, it's not for me, nor the legislature to decide. I just know, I personally could never do it.

[Borgnine]

61. Well...

It was probably the way you said it.

Personally, while I may not be comfortable with the idea of abortion, I'm 100% pro-choice. Hell, I'm not even a woman, so I figure I have no place to speak on the matter. Now, if I was a woman, I don't think I could go through with it for any reason (even if my health was at risk), but I would defend the right to choose for others to the bitter end. If that makes me a bad liberal, then so be it.

[T Town Jake]

62. Sorry, but I think that was...

...just wrong, not from a "liberal" perspective, but from a human one. Had your friend come to you before deciding to exercise her right to have an abortion, and you counseled her against it, that would be one thing. But telling her after the fact that you thought it was "immoral" wasn't the way to go, IMHO. It's a very sensitive area, and my take on it has always been "if you don't like abortion, don't have one." But IMHO, your friend made a decision that was ultimately hers to make, and deserves your support.

[T Town Jake]

63. Okay, my bad...

...and that's what I get for not reading through the entire thread before posting a reply to the original message. Excellent satire! And I agree with you completely, BTW.

[Cheswick2.0]

64. Hi Jake

Don't feel bad. I appreciate your posting. I guess you have to know me a bit better.

Welcome to DU! :hi: