I can't deal anymore with this conservative

[hyphenate]

On aother board, there are a couple of conservatives, and while the amount of liberals on the board overwhelmingly outflank them, they are both arrogant SOBs who will twist a person's words completely and take them out of context at every opportunity they get. Just when you think you've "got them," they manage to weasel out of things by throwing back everything in your face. A fellow DUer that I had invited to the board was rudely mocked to the point where she left, and frankly, I don't blame her. I'm at the point myself where I can't stand these assholes.

Anyhow, I was complaining about how fucked up the system is in this country right now, and how people who want to work are still unemployed, and about how we've got to get our system straightened out before we can ever move forward. So one of these guys went and asked me how I would do that. Off the cuff, I gave a solid list of reforms that needed to be done in order to help straighten things out, and he took my laundry list and refuted every element I had proposed.

If anyone wants to help me battle his refutations, I would appreciate it. I give you my original post, followed by his, in the hopes that I can counter him without expending any more frustration and a possible blowout of my mind from wanting to shoot him someplace between the eyes. (That's a joke, guys, not a real threat!)

__________________________________________________

1. Get the fuck out of other countries and their business. We have enough problems at home to concentrate on.

2. Give education more money. And stick to it. Don't say you're gonna fund something and make a big deal out of it, and then deny them the money. Bush has done this at least two times, if not more.

3. Punish outsourcing. If a company goes outside the U.S. to save money on taxes, make sure that tarifs and taxes on "imported" items is as high as the taxes would be if they remained in the States. In fact, the penalties and import taxes should actually be higher, so that moving back into the States would seem like a tax break.

4. Reward competition in industries. For example, allow the automobile manufacturers to look for alternative forms of energy, and reward those who develop patents for these sources of energy. This will never happen under the current regime, because they're so closely tied to oil.

5. Reward pro-environmental measures. Have tax breaks for those who are able to legitimately keep emissions to minimum, punish those who try to hide their real results, and give extra money to those who follow the rules, not break them.

6. Give health care to all on a sliding scale basis. Those at poverty level and below would get free care (in most states, they already do), and the cost would go up, but still be affordable, all the way up the scale.

7. Put greater checks on several industries, like insurance companies, to keep their fees at affordable rates. This means not charging $1200 for a ten year old car, but more in keeping to what the car is worth, this means liability insurance, and health insurance. In fact, put a cap on how much any insurance company can charge for any kind of insurance, period.

8. Reward start-up companies and entrepreneurial efforts. Give them tax breaks for hiring people. Their first year of regular business, charge them less taxes, so they have a chance to make something of the company.

9. Anyone making over $100,000 should have higher taxes. Without any tax loopholes to keep from paying their fair share.

10. Have a national effort to prevent welfare fraud. As it stands now, someone can apply for welfare in one state, and if it's taken away from them for fraud, they can simply go to another state and get it there. Have a national data bank that can be checked to prevent scofflaws from attempting this kind of scam. The important thing to remember is that you're only punishing the bad guys this way. Take a fingerprint of all recipients of welfare to compare against the data bank, so that they can't try changing their name in order to cheat.

11. Give veterans their due. Don't be telling them one thing to their faces, and cut their benefits behind their backs. The idiot in chief has been doing this all along.

12. Punish crimes appropriate to the crime. As it stands now, the criminal justice system is complete out of whack, and a petty thief with three "grand theft" charges can serve life in some states. And "grand theft" starts at $200. Put the real criminals behind bars, not let their rich and expensive lawyers be able to get them out of jail for horrendous crimes.

13. Give schools greater discretion and ability to make sure that kids are advanced only when they are able to sufficiently complete the work at their grade level. As it is, a student can not be kept back more than once per level. If a student still is unable to complete the grade level work, he or she needs help and should get it without fail.

These are just a couple of things I believe need fixing, and there are plenty more where these came from. But under the current president, it is impossible to fix many of these things, and that is wrong. So I did not jest about getting rid of Bush. That IS the number 1 priority.



HIS REPLY:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>1. Get the fuck out of other countries and their business. We have enough problems at home to concentrate on.<<<<<<<<


Should we let fucking North Korea develop and sell nukes to other outlaw fucking regimes?


>>>>>>>2. Give education more money. And stick to it. Don't say you're gonna fund something and make a big deal out of it, and then deny them the money. Bush has done this at least two times, if not more.<<<<<<<<<<


We spend more on education that anyplace else on Earth. How come other countries are more efficient with the money, and get better results?


>>>>>>>3. Punish outsourcing. If a company goes outside the U.S. to save money on taxes, make sure that tarifs and taxes on "imported" items is as high as the taxes would be if they remained in the States.<<<<<<<<<<


Even movie studios? And what about the economy of the 3rd world? Shouldn't they be able to make a few bucks too?


>>>>>>>>4. Reward competition in industries. For example, allow the automobile manufacturers to look for alternative forms of energy, and reward those who develop patents for these sources of energy. This will never happen under the current regime, because they're so closely tied to oil.<<<<<<<<


Automobile companies are already "allowed" to look for "alternative" forms of energy - there just isn't any money in it. Do you mean reward them with government money? They make more off the sale of SUVs than the government would ever be able to afford.


>>>>>>>>>5. Reward pro-environmental measures. Have tax breaks for those who are able to legitimately keep emissions to minimum, punish those who try to hide their real results, and give extra money to those who follow the rules, not break them.<<<<<<<<<<


There are already shitloads of environmental regulations, fees, and penalties. Where are you going to get all this money to give to these people?


>>>>>>>>.6. Give health care to all on a sliding scale basis. Those at poverty level and below would get free care (in most states, they already do), and the cost would go up, but still be affordable, all the way up the scale.<<<<<<<<<<<


Would I be able to opt out of this public system and not pay in to it, choosing instead to provide for myself?

And how will we pay for the hordes of poor people that will begin wanting service every time their foot aches, because it's their right as an American. You may think I'm "heartless" for asking the question, but if we're all going to support a huge and free system like the one you describe as a given gift, then we're going to have to tackle these issues.


>>>>>>>.7. Put greater checks on several industries, like insurance companies, to keep their fees at affordable rates. This means not charging $1200 for a ten year old car, but more in keeping to what the car is worth, this means liability insurance, and health insurance. In fact, put a cap on how much any insurance company can charge for any kind of insurance, period.<<<<<<<<<<<


I believe risk is more important than the cost of the vehicle - a person may hurt someone else besides the car. A person with a spotless driving record and who is middle aged could drive a Lamborghini affordably.

Who else should have a cap on their income? Trial lawyers? Movie producers? Plumbers?


>>>>>>>>8. Reward start-up companies and entrepreneurial efforts. Give them tax breaks for hiring people. Their first year of regular business, charge them less taxes, so they have a chance to make something of the company.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


What if I wanted to start up an insurance company? You'd be capping my income - and what about zoning, impact fees, environmental regulations, employee benefits being required by law, minimum wage - many of these things virtually insure that only large corporations will be able to afford to do business in certain areas. Loosening some of the sillier regulations would help start-ups as much as a tax break, since many small businesses don't show a profit for a couple of years anyway.


>>>>>>>>9. Anyone making over $100,000 should have higher taxes. Without any tax loopholes to keep from paying their fair share. <<<<<<<<<


What's their fair share? 50%? 70%?

Why not just tax everyone at the same rate with no loopholes - nothing could be more fair than that. 20% of $100,000 is a heck of a lot more money than 20% of $18,000, but both would pay the same fair rate.


>>>>>>10. Have a national effort to prevent welfare fraud.<<<<<<<<


Amen. Welfare should last for 6 months only, and be available no more than 3 times in your life - like going to driving school.


>>>>>11. Give veterans their due. Don't be telling them one thing to their faces, and cut their benefits behind their backs. The idiot in chief has been doing this all along.<<<<<<<<<<


That's ridiculous. A lowered amount of new spending is not a cut, and the armed forces are getting smaller.


>>>>>>>>.12. Punish crimes appropriate to the crime. As it stands now, the criminal justice system is complete out of whack, and a petty thief with three "grand theft" charges can serve life in some states.<<<<<<<<<<


In Islamic societies they just cut off a thief's hands. Maybe we should do that instead - I'll bet petty crime would go way down.


>>>>>>>13. Give schools greater discretion and ability to make sure that kids are advanced only when they are able to sufficiently complete the work at their grade level. As it is, a student can not be kept back more than once per level.<<<<<<<<<


But schools are "rewarded" for their performance, measure previously by graduation. Now that we're doing standardized testing to accomplish exactly what you've said needs to be done, liberals are going nuts because the tests are "racist."


__________________________________________________________________

I appreciate any and all responses, even if it's only on one or two points. Help me get this guy good. Thanks. :)

[donco6]

1. Actually, he's got some good points.

Not sure I'd want to refute all of them.

[leftyandproud]

2. I agree

ignore the bastard...delete the site from your favorites now

[donco6]

4. At risk of being labeled Freeper -

I say "ditto" to that.

[tom_paine]

3. No time to go through them all, but here's a couple

#12: Begging the question. This is a bullshit non-answer and quite common to those who have watched and now can emulate the Orwellian linguistic treatemtn generally fed to you by your Bushevik Masters.

Who was talking about emulating Islamic Societies? I am speaking of bringing more justice, not less. Imprisoning a nonviolent rpeeat offender (there are numerous examples to be Googled of guys who's 3rd Strike was shoplifting a hat or something and their 1st 2 stikes weren't that scary either) for 25 years (use your examples you Google here).

That more closely resembles the Islamic Countries as your deceptive, nonsensical answer is more than reminiscent of Communist Russia or Communist China. Why do you hate America so that you emulate Communists Techniques in Orwellian Evasion.

Why do you hate America so?

#9: Have you ever heard of the declining marginal utility of currency? Go look it up. Until you understand fundamnetal economic 101, it is pointless to argue against someone who, like Hannity, Limbaugh, O'Rechley, etc. just makes up facts and figures or (even worse) someone stupid enough to read fabircated figures and believe them.

Go read an Economics textbook and tell me what you think of the Theory of the Declining Marginal Utility of Currency. Until then, I cannot argue a subject with someone who is utterly ignorant of the basic of that subject.

[jjmalonejr]

5. Why bother?

This person's opinions seem so well formed that I doubt any kind of debate is going to change his mind. There may well be plenty of adequate responses to him, but I think a tit for tat refutation of his points won't achieve much.

Are you looking to win arguments, or change people's views? I'd regard this guy as lost to the Dark Side.

[The Flaming Red Head]

6. I don't like 10 or 13 and I'm a liberal

You had me except for number 10 and 13. Life is very miserable right now for certain elements and people in society who are not frauds and who are doing their best to keep their children on the right track and adding to their misery is not helping anyone and those reforms you proposed would directly affect women and children in a negative way. You attack the weakest and stomp on the powerless and then walk away feeling good about yourself.

[hyphenate]

12. Regarding 10

I am well aware that many people who are currently on welfare need it. In fact, as I am currently disabled and collecting food stamp benefits, I am indebted to the system. However, I have seen welfare fraud personally, and not in isolated instances. I'm not talking about the majority of people, mind you--only those who are abusing the system. I have seen people who have different IDs applying for welfare under multiple names. I have seen women whose husbands are living at home with them lie and say that their husbands are no longer living with them. I have seen women get pregnant purely for the purpose of getting welfare. I have seen people who sell their food stamps in order to purchase liquor and drugs. (This is no longer possible, since the EBT cards are taking the place of actual food stamps) I have seen widespread abuse, and I think that kind of abuse needs to be reined in.

As far as the kids are concerned, my best friend works in the school system, specifically for problem children and those who are handicapped. The school system currently demands that children be promoted after one year of being kept back, even if they are still working below that school level. Rather than give these kids special attention and find out why they are falling behind, the system ignores them. So when a child is 16, and is still failing, they will allow that student to drop out rather than fulfill the obligation of knowing why he/she isn't up to grade level. The idea is that more attention needs to be paid to these particular students in all the school systems, and find out if there is a particular reason why they can't keep up.

Hope that helps you understand my points better.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

7. You roped me in

HIS REPLY:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>1. Get the fuck out of other countries and their business. We have enough problems at home to concentrate on.<<<<<<<<


Should we let fucking North Korea develop and sell nukes to other outlaw fucking regimes?

Outlaw regimes won't have a reason to hit us if we're not constantly pissing on them. Further, there's a cute little thing called "diplomacy". Republicans should learn what it means.




>>>>>>>2. Give education more money. And stick to it. Don't say you're gonna fund something and make a big deal out of it, and then deny them the money. Bush has done this at least two times, if not more.<<<<<<<<<<


We spend more on education that anyplace else on Earth. How come other countries are more efficient with the money, and get better results?
Unlike those other countries, we can't keep many of our schools safe to attend or teach in. We have to work to make schools safer, then we can start seeing across the board results.

>>>>>>>3. Punish outsourcing. If a company goes outside the U.S. to save money on taxes, make sure that tarifs and taxes on "imported" items is as high as the taxes would be if they remained in the States.<<<<<<<<<<


Even movie studios? And what about the economy of the 3rd world? Shouldn't they be able to make a few bucks too?

I'm not sure what movie studios have to do with anything. And the third world can still make money... just any company operating within our borders will be subject to taxation. So a one office "world headquarters" in Guatemala isn't going to cut it in evading taxes any longer.


>>>>>>>>4. Reward competition in industries. For example, allow the automobile manufacturers to look for alternative forms of energy, and reward those who develop patents for these sources of energy. This will never happen under the current regime, because they're so closely tied to oil.<<<<<<<<


Automobile companies are already "allowed" to look for "alternative" forms of energy - there just isn't any money in it. Do you mean reward them with government money? They make more off the sale of SUVs than the government would ever be able to afford.

How about the government taking the lead by giving greater funding to finding alternative fuel sources? The amount they spend on it each year is a pittance. Further, those same automobile companies are in bed with oil companies, and you can guess what the oil companies think about alternative fuel. Besides, being that the automobile industry is making money at the status quo, why would they change without incentive to do so? We give farm subsidies to farmers who grow specific crops. Why not subsidies to auto manufacturers for building specific kinds of cars?

>>>>>>>>>5. Reward pro-environmental measures. Have tax breaks for those who are able to legitimately keep emissions to minimum, punish those who try to hide their real results, and give extra money to those who follow the rules, not break them.<<<<<<<<<<


There are already shitloads of environmental regulations, fees, and penalties. Where are you going to get all this money to give to these people?

From the assload of money that stands to be made in the research and sales of environmentally friendly products that would be required by law.

>>>>>>>>.6. Give health care to all on a sliding scale basis. Those at poverty level and below would get free care (in most states, they already do), and the cost would go up, but still be affordable, all the way up the scale.<<<<<<<<<<<


Would I be able to opt out of this public system and not pay in to it, choosing instead to provide for myself?

And how will we pay for the hordes of poor people that will begin wanting service every time their foot aches, because it's their right as an American. You may think I'm "heartless" for asking the question, but if we're all going to support a huge and free system like the one you describe as a given gift, then we're going to have to tackle these issues.

That's funny - Canada seems to have no such problem. People don't want to waste their time going to the doctor. It's absolutely idiotic to think people would waste time and money on mild foot aches or similar lame illnesses.

>>>>>>>.7. Put greater checks on several industries, like insurance companies, to keep their fees at affordable rates. This means not charging $1200 for a ten year old car, but more in keeping to what the car is worth, this means liability insurance, and health insurance. In fact, put a cap on how much any insurance company can charge for any kind of insurance, period.<<<<<<<<<<<


I believe risk is more important than the cost of the vehicle - a person may hurt someone else besides the car. A person with a spotless driving record and who is middle aged could drive a Lamborghini affordably.

Who else should have a cap on their income? Trial lawyers? Movie producers? Plumbers?

Everyone made plenty of money when the energy industry was regulated. When it became de-regulated, the consumers got completely screwed. When it comes to necessary for living products, such as electricity and health insurance, there needs to be regulations in place so that the average person does not get screwed in favor of record profits, which the insurance companies continually report.

>>>>>>>>8. Reward start-up companies and entrepreneurial efforts. Give them tax breaks for hiring people. Their first year of regular business, charge them less taxes, so they have a chance to make something of the company.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


What if I wanted to start up an insurance company? You'd be capping my income - and what about zoning, impact fees, environmental regulations, employee benefits being required by law, minimum wage - many of these things virtually insure that only large corporations will be able to afford to do business in certain areas. Loosening some of the sillier regulations would help start-ups as much as a tax break, since many small businesses don't show a profit for a couple of years anyway.

I wouldn't care if you wanted to start an insurance company, because in order to do so, you would need a rather large sum of up-front money, and therefore, you're already rich if you can start it. And it'd be very easy to give hefty tax credits per employee to companies that employ, say, between 1-50 people and with income lower than, say, $100,000 per year. That'd ensure that the money would go exactly where it belongs, as well as making it easy for small businesses to cover benefits and fees associated with running a business.

>>>>>>>>9. Anyone making over $100,000 should have higher taxes. Without any tax loopholes to keep from paying their fair share. <<<<<<<<<


What's their fair share? 50%? 70%?

Why not just tax everyone at the same rate with no loopholes - nothing could be more fair than that. 20% of $100,000 is a heck of a lot more money than 20% of $18,000, but both would pay the same fair rate.

Because 20% of $18,000 a year might be the difference between living a healthy life and not being able to put food on the table, whereas 20% of $100,000 means that person still lives VERY nicely. Why should someone who's scraping to get by be expected to pay the same percentage as someone who has complete financial security? That's not fairness - that's theft. Plain and simple.

>>>>>>10. Have a national effort to prevent welfare fraud.<<<<<<<<


Amen. Welfare should last for 6 months only, and be available no more than 3 times in your life - like going to driving school.

6 months? This obviously comes from someone who's never hit rock bottom. It takes a lot longer than 6 months to get back on track if you have to resort to welfare.

>>>>>11. Give veterans their due. Don't be telling them one thing to their faces, and cut their benefits behind their backs. The idiot in chief has been doing this all along.<<<<<<<<<<


That's ridiculous. A lowered amount of new spending is not a cut, and the armed forces are getting smaller.

Tell that to these guys: http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Dishonorable_discharge_112603.htm Better stories may be available, but I'm pressed for time.

>>>>>>>>.12. Punish crimes appropriate to the crime. As it stands now, the criminal justice system is complete out of whack, and a petty thief with three "grand theft" charges can serve life in some states.<<<<<<<<<<


In Islamic societies they just cut off a thief's hands. Maybe we should do that instead - I'll bet petty crime would go way down.

I'd love for him to prove that.

>>>>>>>13. Give schools greater discretion and ability to make sure that kids are advanced only when they are able to sufficiently complete the work at their grade level. As it is, a student can not be kept back more than once per level.<<<<<<<<<


But schools are "rewarded" for their performance, measure previously by graduation. Now that we're doing standardized testing to accomplish exactly what you've said needs to be done, liberals are going nuts because the tests are "racist."

Isn't it the Republican mantra to put control back into the hands of the local government? Isn't it then hypocritical to suggest that the teachers who deal with these students every day aren't better suited to decide who's ready for graduation than someone who's looking from far away at a page full of only numbers?

[Donkeyboy75]

8. You can do some research on your own,

but I can help you with a couple of points:

>>>>>>>2. Give education more money. And stick to it. Don't say you're gonna fund something and make a big deal out of it, and then deny them the money. Bush has done this at least two times, if not more.<<<<<<<<<<


Conservative : We spend more on education that anyplace else on Earth. How come other countries are more efficient with the money, and get better results?

**There are two problems with this: First, in the U.S., we pay for college. Most other countries don't. While the U.S. DOES spend more per pupil than any other country, we don't spend the most per pupil when college is factored out. Also, we rank 5th out of 29 countries studied if you look at this as education spending as percent of GDP. But spending figures are misleading. The U.S. education system needs to be fixed, where all students receive the same education. No other nation has anywhere close to the disparity between, for example, the quality of schools in inner city areas compared to suburban schools. I would recommend you find statistics for education spending for inner-city schools. They are sure to be abysmally low. This will also address your point about crime. Offering those with little hope for the future an opportunity will certainly cut down on crime.

>>>>>>>>9. Anyone making over $100,000 should have higher taxes. Without any tax loopholes to keep from paying their fair share. <<<<<<<<<
Conservative: What's their fair share? 50%? 70%?

Why not just tax everyone at the same rate with no loopholes - nothing could be more fair than that. 20% of $100,000 is a heck of a lot more money than 20% of $18,000, but both would pay the same fair rate.

**No, a flat tax rate isn't fair. Those making lower incomes need more of their money to pay for basics such as food, shelter and energy costs. Those making more have more disposable income, so can afford to pay higher taxes.

>>>>>11. Give veterans their due. Don't be telling them one thing to their faces, and cut their benefits behind their backs. The idiot in chief has been doing this all along.<<<<<<<<<<


Conservative: That's ridiculous. A lowered amount of new spending is not a cut, and the armed forces are getting smaller.

**By far his weakest point. The military may be getting smaller (at least until the draft is reinstituted). But the number of veterans requiring health care is increasing quickly due to aging. Overall spending is irrelevant here. If you "support the troops," you will make sure they are taken care of. Bush's new plan has cost veterans hundreds of dollars more per year for the same health care by instituting "enrollment fees" and increasing prescription drug costs. The VA estimates that 425,000 current VA patients will be unable to afford this health care that was promised to them due to the funding cuts. If Bush really supported the troops, he would climb out of the pockets of the drug companies and demand fair prices for pharmaceuticals for the troops.




Hope this helps. I again would encourage you to look for research on your own. :hi:

[Warpy]

9. it won't do any good, but

#1 Get the MILITARY out of all other countries. Redefine the military as a defense force. Stop trying to be the Roman Empire. Put the Pentagon on a diet and save trillions over the next few years. Diplomacy is still the best option for any conflict. War is expensive, shorty, and that is the main reason you don't see much for your taxes.

#2 Fix the schools, pay the teachers, set up some sort of parity so that the inner city kids don't share the classroom with rats and have 1960 textbooks while the suburbs can afford university level computer labs.

#3 Confiscatory tariffs on companies that outsource jobs and still expect the US to be the primary market. Outsourcing aint bad if it is for the foreign market, the way Heinz did it. Outsourcing so the CEO can make an extra bonus while cheating US workers is a bad idea, and should be appropriately punished with tariffs.

#4 There's no profit in it, Einstein, because there's no seed money for research.

#5 Roll back the Bush anti-environmental laws. Then enforce the laws that were on the books before he trashed them.

#6 He's got you there, bad idea. However, universal, mandatory insurance should be in place, no opt outs, spread the risk pool as widely as possible. That's the way to cut costs. As healthy young adults who resent the system get a bit older and have to use it, they'll wise up about it. Obviously those at or below subsistence would be subsidized.

#7 Go after insurance companies that try to cost shift losses from bad stock market deals onto their clients in the form of brutally higher rates. That's what's happened with malpractice insurance, not the fact that people hurt by doctors sue them.

#8 That's called "small business loans," and it already exists. Do periodic audits of local SBAs and make sure they don't just lavish money on a few politically connected SOBs who start up dummy companies every few years (true story, Cape Cod).

#9 $100,00/year is barely middle class, these days. Bring back the progressive tax structure. Hammer the SOBs who think they're worth more than a million a year (nobody is). Raise the cap on FICA earnings to a million a year. Give those old boys the flat tax they've always wanted, no exemptions. Make social security solvent.

# 10 Welfare fraud is a drop in the bucket, as is welfare, itself. Eliminate corporate welfare, which is where the real big bucks fraud is. Support abandoned families and encourage education. Educated parents will pay back more taxes than uneducated parents. Go after the deadbeat parents, and track them by SSN. Don't push it all off on poor people with no resources. Liminting benefits to a set period is a dumb idea. After all, you don't get over being a quadriplegic or an old person who's had a stroke. Establishing adequate day care would also help, as would establishing living wage laws.

#11 Have you tried to get care in a VA lately, binky? Veterans' services are underfunded at an all time low. This is disgraceful, and so is everyone who supports it. This means you.

# 12 The three strikes law in California is a bad one. Mandatory sentencing for nonviolent drug offenses is an idiotic idea. Slaps on the wrists for corporate criminals who hurt millions is a ridiculous, class-based idea. Sentence those bastards according to the number of people they hurt, and make sure they serve the full sentence.

#13 If a test is racist, CHANGE IT. Only conservatives want this stuff written into stone. Fund remedial classes so kids who are falling behind won't be kept back whole grade levels. It's cheaper to have a remedial class once a week than it is to have a kid in school for a whole extra year, especially since the kid will find it a humiliating experience and will NOT be motivated to succeed.


OK, not that it will do any good, let your freeper friend have this stuff. Please take credit for it yourself, though, as I get enough hate mail from toothless inbred, snuff juice dribbling Freepers as it is.

[oldcoot]

10. Here are some points

#1. How do you want to stop North Korea from getting nuclear weapons? Do you want to invade North Korea or do you want to try to put pressure on North Korea. If you want to use military force, you need to realize that there is only so much that the United States can do so our government must choose its wars wisely. Currently, the U.S. fighting in 2 nations. As a result of Bush's decision to go to war with Iraq, a nation that posed no threat to the United States, the U.S. has less resources to deal with North Korea.

#2. Yes, it is true that the United States spends more on education than other nations. However, other nations, spend more on health care, child care, public transportation and other related social services. For example, a child who gets immediate medical attention for an ear infection may find it easier to concentrate on his or her studies than a child who has to wait until the end of the month to go to the doctor because mommy has to wait until pay day. ( A good reference is Peter Schrag's article "The Near Myth of Failing Schools" in The Atlantic Monthly, October 1997, 72-74, 76, 78,80)

[bleedingedge]

11. Ina certain way, he's got you...

See, by asking you for specific policy initiatives, he roped you into creating a system of information that he could refute or argue against.

Ask him for a similar list - I bet you could do the same to him. If he says "Well, by golly, we should establish US hegemony throughout the world", you can ask him "How? Who pays? What's the body count threshold that makes it a prohibitive risk? Which countries do we target - any which are undemocratic or only those who harbor terrorists? Or any that have or seek nukes? Should we preemptiovely interfere in countries where we *think* the ruling government may be overthrown to a more "dangerous" faction?

Grand ideas are always easy to argue for - it's when you get to specifics that things get messy. For example, I believe in universal health care too. Ain't got a clue in hell as to how to do it.

This is why our system of government is so ingenious - it virtually ensures that such debate will take place and that only the most robust policies are enforced. The system, however, breaks down when one party or view controls all branches or when non-individual interests can effectively control the process. Both of which is happening now, one of which will be solved if we kick Bush's sorry ass to the curb.

I would urge you *not* to ignore this person - he seems to be more capable of debate than many people (lib and pug) and his stance will inevitably force you to more thoroughly think about your viewpoint and how to accomplish it. In the end, he makes you stronger.

Now, as for specific rebuttals:

1. We're not in N. Korea, are we? Last time I checked, we were "kid-gloving" them.

6. No you can't opt out, any more than my mom could opt of paying property taxes that funded the schools that I didn't go to, given that they sucked and she spent her own money to send me to private schools. But beware of this argument - he's drop "school vouchers" on you as a deflection of the real argument. But then I suppose you could shoot back with "health care vouchers".

7. He asks who else would have an income cap, but your argument is not against the individual, it is against corporate profit-seeking. Its an apples-to-oranges comparison. Tell him you've got no problem with insurance companies paying thier employees as much as they want, your beef is with the insurance companies seeking exorbitant profit for themselves.

Anyway, I hope this gives you some ideas and doesn't seem too pedantic or preachy.

[hyphenate]

13. Thanks everyone

I have printed the posts out and will be referring to them in my answer to this guy. I really appreciate your help. It's not that I was too lazy to look up these things, because I do a lot of research, but that I had a splitting headache (still do!) and couldn't do it and give a timely reply to this guy.

The problem with this board is I've been there for quite some time. This one guy has only become more shrill and more objectionable since the last six months, while it appears Bush might be ousted this election. I think, like most repukes, he's afraid of losing. I've tried telling him in the past that losing is what he's been doing since he's on the repuke side, but it hasn't worked. ;)