BBV: I think I have Hagel on libel

[BevHarris]

Have asked the reporter for the AP article to check how bulletproof the quote is.

I am considering a suit for libel -- it will open up the senator to discovery. I have his documents locked down and my work on Hagel is stone cold accurate.

Then, assuming the quote holds up (and I think it certainly will), I'll ask the board if they mind if I go ahead and sue for damages. Perhaps the Hagel millions can help fund Black Box Voting.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5353926/

Here's the quote: It is by his spokesperson, acting in her official capacity as the chief of staff for Chuck Hagel:

She bases her whole theory on a continuous string of untruths," said Lou Ann Linehan, chief of staff for Nebraska Sen. Chuck Hagel. In the 1990s, Hagel headed voting equipment company American Information Systems Inc., which later became ES&S. Hagel maintains investments between $1 million and $6 million in McCarthy Group Inc., a private bank with a large stake in ES&S.

Harris, who dubs Hagel "poster boy for conflict of interest," says the Republican did not disclose the extent of his American Information Systems involvement and questions whether a former executive of a company whose machines count votes in precincts nationwide should run for public office. Hagel's staff insist that his former career doesn't affect his political life.

"I don't know if it's sloppy research or she doesn't care," Linehan said. "I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it because it's all so ridiculous."

Bev Harris

[iconoclastic cat]

1. Bev, I love you.

:yourock:

[LittleApple81]

2. My heart is with you... best wishes for your success. n/t

[Frodo]

3. I think it depends on where (or in what capacity?) he said it...

Congressmen are generally immune from libel suits if they can claim they were acting as a congressman when they said it (if it was in the press he likely was).

Of course I haven't seen the quote. Good luck.

[wicket]

4. Good luck!

Kick! :kick:

[NMDemDist2]

5. heard you on Ed Schultz yesterday "Multi State Meltdown" is gonna

stick--- Great Job

Good luck with Hagel

[cthrumatrix]

12. I missed that...? what does that mean?

[NMDemDist2]

16. you may be able to get an archive at

www.wegoted.com

Bev said the BBV would cause a "multi state meltdown" in the election

go here for more www.blackboxvoting.org

[KittyWampus]

44. "Multi-State Meltdown" Has An Impressive Ring To It

hope it catches on...

One wonders what will happen if BBV is used and Democrats or even GOP question results and then question the legality of ALL that state's votes.

Coiuld BBV legally invalidate an entire state?

[mhr]

6. Hoping You Are Right - These SOBs Need To Go Down!

eom

[NewJeffCT]

7. good luck Bev

I don't post much on BBV, but I know it's a hugely important issue. However, I think a lot of high level Republicans these days are 'above the law'.

[cthrumatrix]

8. we are soo proud of you..... facts are definitely "not their friend"

[cap]

9. interesting coincidence...

Hagel worked with Erik Prince (head of Blackwater security -- ie mercenaries in Iraq... "private security company") to start the Family Research Council (conservative "pro-family" group).

It's a rather interesting confluence of forces.

[RedEagle]

29. Links please?

Cap, that is very interesting.

What a spider's web.

[G_j]

10. go Bev !

onward :toast:

[Hubert Flottz]

11. Good Luck!

I salute your great effort! You are a patriot! I have pointed MANY people to your website! THANK YOU!

[Bozita]

13. One person can make a difference

Her name is Bev Harris.

[cthrumatrix]

14. Bev..where can we read the status on if shrub will be alowed to cheat

again with computer voting? Is there a state by state breakdown?

What do you think of the UN monitoring the vote?

[BevHarris]

15. Forget the UN. WE need to monitor the vote.

Email [e-mail] with "election watch" in the subject. We will be mobilizing election watchers-- who will monitor core audit data to catch the machines in the act of miscounting, and by the way, you can monitor incoming data in any location you want, including a remote location.

Also, Common Cause is doing an Election Protection watch, VoteWatch is doing a statistical anomaly watch, and numerous other groups are doing similar things.

We need to take control of our own process. Nothing else will have a binding effect.

Bev

[NMDemDist2]

17. done, I signed up at BBV yesterday after I heard you call for

volunteers on Ed Schultz :D

[Mari333]

18. Behind you all the way Bev

and there wont be touchscreen voting machines in my township . I contacted the township supervisor a while back and turned her on to your site. She went wild. Old Democrats here will be monitoring everything, older women with an attitude.
Behind you all the way.

[graham67]

19. I don't understand

How is it possible to sue Hagel when it is his chief of staff quoted in this article?

:shrug:

[harmonyguy]

21. I don't presume to speak for Bev....

...and I'm certainly no lawyer, but I would think that either the statement was made in the spokesperson's formal capacity and hence was official/approved/endorsed (after all, that IS what spokepeople are there for - to speak for, or on behalf of...), or that perhaps Bev was figuratively referring to the senator's team of people.

Now, back to the BIG issue - making sure that ballots are ballots and that ballot counting is really possible......

HG

[Frodo]

20. I'm afraid you'll be laughed out of court.

Thanks for providing the link and quotes. It appears that the speech and debate protections might not apply here (though the closer you get to showing the spokesman was acting in an "official capacity" the closer you get to immunity). But if you actually had a congressman commenting on accusations about an official activity (like elections) - it's almost impossible that he would not have blanket immunity from the charge.

The problem is that saying "she's lying" isn't libel in itself (and they muted that - they can claim it's your source that is incorrect, not you lying). You have to prove malice and a reckless disregard for the truth (which they obviously HAVE, but you can't prove it). In the case of a politician or other public figure, the bar is set incredibly high. And you don't get any discovery until the court first decides if the facts presented - if true - constitute libel. They don't. I see you highlighted "I don't know if it's sloppy research or she doesn't care," - That's obviously insulting (and unwaranted knowing how much effort you've put into this - you obviously "care" and have done tons of "research"), but insult is not the same thing as libel. Not any more than calling someone "poster boy for conflict of interest" is libel.

We're too close to the election for you to waste your time on this. It would also make you look silly. The press would change from covering the real story to covering YOU "activist sues congressman for aid accusing her of being wrong" doesn't play very well.

[West Coast Democrat]

26. You're an economic expert & a law expert?

Where do you find the time?

[Frodo]

34. Nahhh.

Just your run-of-the-mill internet know-it-all. :-)

I have an obsession (actually, "compulsion" is probably the better word). I read... a LOT. I can't get to sleep at night without reading something and I wake up an hour or more earlier than most to read some more. I switched many years back from fantasy/sci-fi to things of substance that interested me. Politics, economics, law, science, you name it. It was three, four, five books a week before I got hooked on the internet.

Not enough to be an "expert" in anything. They say a "little knowledge is a dangerous thing"? I guess I'm dangerous on a number of subjects.

[RedEagle]

28. Do you have real court/law experience?

I'm serious. Feedback is always good.

On the other hand, disclosure, if it could be accomplished, would probably end the Hagel threat.

Hagel is just in intermediary cog in the Bush camp wheel.

Backup for when a 'real' Bush could not get elected.

[Frodo]

30. Experience? I've been a witness in traffic court once or twice...

Does that count??? :-)

I've taken more than a few law courses, but the ones that included libel were all at the survey level.

But anyone can look up case history to see what the standard is. And for congressmen it's far higher. You simply can't sue them in this type of situation. Luckily - they can't sue you for calling THEM a liar either... or we'd all be in trouble.

[yowzayowzayowza]

22. Bev, I don't see ...

how this can aid the cause. A personal trivial pissing match with this sort is just going to diminish the discourse.

[Malikshah]

24. Because no ground should be given.

Folks have given up too much ground. We need to fight fire with fire--stoop to their level in order to drag them up to the level of humanity.

In other words-- the "take the high road" mentality has led us to this place we call hell.

If Hagel has committed libel, then he should be taken to task for it--just to show that we mean business.

[yowzayowzayowza]

25. Disagree...

One must choose their battles wisely. This is a pitch in the dirt. We cannot waste at-bats on WORDS when there are DEEDS that deserve attention.

[Malikshah]

38. Still disagree

In this case words are, in fact, deeds. 8 years of words in the 1990s, words that were not fought against in any real way led us to this predicament.

Libel is based on words and is a criminal offense rightly so-- If we were to focus only on deeds, then Libel and Slander would go unpunished across the board.

[yowzayowzayowza]

40. Pop Quiz:

When was the last time a member of Congress was convicted of a "word" crime?

[Malikshah]

41. Just because it doesn't happen on a yearly, decade, millennia basis

Doesn't mean that it shouldn't ever happen.

We need to move beyond the flat-earth society mentality--

No time like the present!!! :)

[yowzayowzayowza]

42. Why is it I'm feeling drawn to the image of a

windmill?

[Malikshah]

45. For the same reason I'm drawn to the image of a

bared throat. :)

Courage!

[Tsiyu]

23. Bev You are a hero

Don't get sidetracked. Don't take the words of idiots and money-grubbers at face value. They will say anything to discredit you. Tell them to suck an egg and you just keep on plugging Sister....

[GoldenOldie]

27. Who & How will the Military and Ex-pat's votes be monitored????

My daughter and family are home from Europe for summer break and she tells me that the ex-pats are furious that Geroge & company has squandered the good-will that the rest of the world had for the US but how he has placed them and their families in danger. The ex-pats have been raising funds for ABB and plan on voting in full force. Will theirs or the military votes be counted????

[SoCalDem]

31. Perhaps they could photocopy the ballot (filled out) and then

send it certified mail.. That would prove that it was received, and the voter would have a card that proves who signed for it and when it was received..

If there was a huge discrepancy, that would be one way to "prove" it :)

[RedEagle]

33. I Have Read That The Military Will Be Expediting Ballots

I wish I remember where, and had a link, but I think the military will be paying more attention to getting ballots to troops overseas on time, this time.

Overseas citizens should receive the same treatment, but I'm not sure about that one.

FYI, the GAO report (before the ill-conceived SERVE, 'Internet voting for the military' project) had lots to say about why ballots did not get where needed on time. No one even tried to tighten up the present system and make it run right. It's not easy, but the first option should have been to clean up and improve the present system of delivery. Instead, they spent more dollars on an insecure voting program. But, hey, those dollars went to the favored, off-shore entity called Accenture. Better to fatten the coffers of the corporate, tax dodging favorites, than to insure our military gets to vote and have those votes counted as cast.

[WhoDoYouTrust]

32. Off the subject, Bev.

There was a picture and biography of you in our local paper on Tuesday. It was from the AP.

Keep up the good work! You're being heard!

Judy

[GreenPartyVoter]

35. Go, Bev, Go!

[Senior citizen]

36. Even if the case is rock solid, you will lose. Don't waste the time.

1. Judges are supposed to be assigned randomly. I do not believe they are. For about a decade almost all the sex harassment and discrimination cases in the 9th circuit were "randomly" assigned to their "feminist" female judge, who had never ruled for a plaintiff or enforced a consent decree until forced to by public outcry much later.
The reason the appointments of judges is political is because they want their own judges who can be counted on to do as asked. (Witness SCOTUS 2000)

2. Your funds and time are limited, the government's are not. Many rock solid cases from aboveground nuclear testing and other horrors were drawn out in court until most of the plaintiffs died. They can also produce mountains of paperwork that your attorney would have to respond to within time limits--actual mountains. I sued the government once (employment discrimination) in pro per (no attorney) and they had 17 Ass't. U.S. Attorneys and their staffs, plus 4 other gov't. legal teams assigned to opposing me. I had no money and they spent something like 2 million dollars.

3. The judge can make a ruling he or she knows won't stand up on appeal, just to force you to appeal. I know a guy who had a rock solid case but kept losing all the way to the Supreme Court. SCOTUS refused certiorari (which they do 95% of the time) so the lower rulings, unConstitutional as they were, stood.

4. If learning how corrupt our election system is has been a revelation to you, you DO NOT want to learn how corrupt our justice system is. It is, if anything, much more corrupt and much less accountable.

Keep up the good work Bev. I signed up to volunteer, but I never plug my phone in so I have to be reached by email. We all need you to lead and inspire us in this battle, so stay focused. And, how do you know when rethuglicans are lying? Their lips move.

We love you, Bev! You too, Andy! And everyone else helping with BBV!

[SharonAnn]

49. Thank you for stating what I have perceived is happening.

The justice system isn't for sale, it's already been sold.

[tom_paine]

37. Good luck, Bev! GET those Bushevik BASTARDS!

Why do they hate America so?

Why do they hate freedom so?

Can't we ship them off to Commie China, where they'll be much happier with the One-Party Rule?

[Karenina]

39. Breathe in... breathe out...

OOOOOOOMMMMM... :kick:

[AP]

43. Yeah, when I first saw that quote, my first reaction was that really...

...looked like what you think it is.

It's like an invitation to sue him. I wonder why he'd do that.

[theboss]

46. That ain't libel....

Sorry, but I don't see it. Even if you get past the fact that it is not necessarily defamatory, what are the damages?

[ClassWarrior]

47. Go Bev!!!

:kick:

[Bushfire]

48. ES&S and Hagel links

TheHill.com Hagel’s ethics filings pose disclosure issue:

http://www.thehill.com/news/012903/hagel.aspx

ES&S BBV demo only has 20% error rate!:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=113x7214

ES&S Project Manager Resigns Over Voting Machine Problems:

http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1857668

Marion County Clerk Accuses ES&S of Lying:

http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1799902

Miami Dade's headlong rush to buy ES&S:

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1084316008117

[Zomby Woof]

50. WAY too mild to be slander

Seeing that these were spoken words where the comments originated, slander would be the correct definition. But then, accusing you of being sloppy and faulty with your theorizing is not exactly slander, so we're back at square zero.

My goodness, maybe you should add a study of law to your regimen of regular voting. Smacks a bit too much of desperation to go after your critics this way. Or perhaps this is too thick-skinned of an enterprise for a literary publicist.