Electronic Voting Security on C-Span2, 10:15p eastern

[Kanary]

heads up

[MasonJar]

1. Thanks.

[Kanary]

2. On now.......

Larson, D- Connecticut

Talking about electronic machines, now. Will be interesting to see how it is handled.

[Kanary]

3. Between 1.3 and 3 million voters turned away without voting

GEEEEZ

[Kanary]

4. Aarrrgggghhhh! Professor justifying it with "everything has risks"

fer cryin' in a bucket.......

"Gives elderly and disabled"......... yeah, but if your vote is wiped out, what has been gained....?

geeeeeeeeez........

Kanary

[ParanoidPat]

5. What a LOAD OF CRAP!

:grr:

[LittleApple81]

6. This is crap.... that proponents have not explained why paper trails

are the solution!!!!

[LittleApple81]

7. His name should be sham... not shamos.

[ParanoidPat]

9. As my Dad would have said.....

....."These people are as thick as shit and twice as nasty!" :puke:

[Kanary]

8. the only upside is.......

it clarifies for us what we need to be writing about, and calling our congresscritters about......

This really sux.......

Kanary

[LittleApple81]

10. Explain to me why is there only one guy (repug Bob Ney from Ohio)

representing the entire House Adm. committee? Is this considered so unimportant an issue?

[LittleApple81]

11. Now I saw the others. They were ot participating before.

John Larson D-Conn. is asking questions now.

[LittleApple81]

14. Can do a meaningful recount on a machine?

Shamos says he doesn't know what that means!
Is he an idiot! Who is paying him? He seems to have excellent credentials.

[Kanary]

16. Unfortunately, I don't think he's an idiot.... he has a dog in the race

Ax to grind....

etc...

[ParanoidPat]

12. Because Diebold thought it was important enough to insist that their......

.....local rep stand up for them! :grr:

Sorry! Just noticed John Larson (D-Connecticut) :)

Reading questions from Holt now.

[Kanary]

13. Now we're going to debate "meaningful recount"....aiii carumba

Where's the "I give up" emoticon......

Even I can see the dancing......

Kanary

[ParanoidPat]

19. And I thought I was already pissed!

I am beyond pissed off! :grr:
I am beyond outraged!!:grr: :grr:

THIS IS WAR!

[Kanary]

22. uhoh....... sorry I posted this.....

:hi:

Now I'm going to go to bed worrying about your blood pressure.....

Would it be sooo difficult for us to have some really good news in this area??

I mean, really...?

Kanary

[ParanoidPat]

25. Thanks for posting this and please don't worry about.....

.....MY blood pressure! It's John Mica and Bob Ney (add R. Doug Lewis too) that you better worry about! :evilgrin:

[Kanary]

26. Go Get 'Em!

They won't know what hit 'em!

:hi:

Kanary

[Kanary]

15. Just realized..... anyone without the advantage of hearing BEV

would think these guys are making sense.

Now, how scary is that.......

Kanary

[LittleApple81]

17. Why did they not invite Bev Harris??? Is she a "conspiracy theorist?"

We know what has happened with most of our "conspiracy" like today's Saddam statue toppling story...

[Kanary]

18. Rubin has the most coherent points....

But he'll probably be dismissed as "too simple"

His points about the gambling machines are on target......

Kanary

[Kanary]

20. in and of itself, encription will not guarantee

[Kanary]

21. "test, test, test, train, train, train"

"Watch what people are doing when they go into the polling place"

Yeah, this sounds like an economic boundoggle........

[LittleApple81]

23. This is worse than my country of origin over 20 years ago!! Cannot believe

it!!!!
I remember when I voted there, they had a jar of indelible ink: you dipped your finger in the ink (you could not wash it during the day... it was REALLY hard to get it off your finger) and they had paper ballots guarded by people from both parties.
And they knew how to count them.
WHAT IS THIS CRAP??? If people have disabilities, that is a very small percentage. Could they not design a system where the people with disabilities have a special area designated for them?

How does Canada do it?

[LittleApple81]

24. I think that we have to REFUSE TO USE THESE MACHINES

for this election... These state boards that approved these machines are ignoramuses on computer systems and the corporations are dirty.

[Kanary]

27. "I know the bank safe doesn't work, but I have a lot of people

walking around keeping an eye on things."

Great analogy, Kohno!

Did you notice the two young guys make the most sense?

Rubin saying that it's possible to protect right of disabled to vote without compromising security.

Kanary

[ParanoidPat]

28. Anyone interested in contacting some of these idiots?

Professor Tadayoshi Kohno, University of California, San Diego, [e-mail]

Brit Williams, Kennesaw State University, [e-mail]

Representative Bob Ney,
DC Address:The Honorable Bob Ney
United States House of Representatives
2438 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515-3518 DC
Phone:[phone]DC
Fax:[phone]
Email Address: [e-mail]

:evilgrin: More to come!

On Edit: Juanita Millender-McDonald seems to be open to asking appropriate questions. How about sending some good ones her way? :)

Washington Office:
1514 Longworth House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515-0537
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Main District Office:
970 W. 190th St., Ste. 900
Torrance, CA 90502
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

E-Mail Via this link. http://congress.nw.dc.us/washtimes/home/washtimes/mail/?id=660&type=CO&state=CA

[Kanary]

30. Thanks! What about the woman from CA who just questioned?

I think she was the one most open to new info.

Thanks!

on edit: Rep Juanita Millender-McDonald D-CA

Kanary

[Kanary]

29. Crud-a-rama! Shameful Shamas now saying

paper ballots for disabled won't work, because there are too many untrained people who have manipulated the situation in the past........

????????

"train, train, train" for electronic machines, but training is a problem for paper ballots?????

whew, boy..... male logic......

:evilgrin:

Kanary

[LittleApple81]

31. Shoot, I cannot go to bed until this is done. These women on now

Maryland is the one talking now (State Board of Elections, Ms. Linda Lamone)... I am a female and am sorry to say SHE IS SO STUPID... she has had the system for a year, and nobody as been able to break it. Who has done the testing? Because she doesn't know shit from shinola.

[LittleApple81]

32. This woman is showing a paper trail from a machine that is not designed

to produce one... it is feet long.
But now the computer specialists are off... nobody to tell her how stupid she sounds.

[Kanary]

34. These hearings are a bit...........sloppy.......sigh.......

[Kanary]

33. "If there was a problem, we would have known about it by now"

:eyes:

[ParanoidPat]

37. Great DU article about Kathy Rogers.....

.....here! http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/06/11_diebold.html

[Kanary]

40. Thanks for the article! question......

I'm calling some of these reps tomorrow, and want to be able to contact the Rep from CA.. Juanita....
Did you happen to find the info on her?

Hmmmmm, nebbamind.......I feel better calling rather than emailing, so I guess all I need is her name...

I'll use some of the info from this article....

Thanks!

Kanary

[LittleApple81]

35. GEORGIA WOMAN NOW: Kathy Rogers - office of Scy. of State!

That is where the cheater came from... isn't that where Chambliss (Mr. shambles) and the other jerk who "surprisingly won the primary and the final vote with landslides and he was part owner in Diebold?"!!!!!)

[napi21]

42. Sure is!!! She's doing a great job of patting herself on the back!

But it's all BS!

[LittleApple81]

36. BEV HARRIS HELP!!!!!! BEV WHERE ARE YOU!!!!! drowning in

idiocy.

[LittleApple81]

38. Sorry Kanary... these women are being allowed to talk without the

experts to contradict them... and it is cheaper and (for the repugs) easier to just let go. We are sunk!

[ParanoidPat]

39. WE ARE NOT SUNK!

Read my sig! FIRST GET ANGRY, THEN GET ACTIVE! :evilgrin:

Contact these people and remind them that THEY WORK FOR US!

Jill LaVine, Registrar of Voters
7000 65th Street
Sacramento, CA 95823-2315
[phone]
[phone] Fax
Hours 8:00am - 5:00pm
E-mail: [e-mail]
Website: www.saccounty.net/elections

Sign up at www.blackboxvoting.org ! :evilgrin:

On Edit: Contact Info for Representative Steny Hoyer

DC Address:The Honorable Steny H. Hoyer
United States House of Representatives
1705 Longworth House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515-2005 DC
Phone:[phone]DC
Fax:[phone]
Email Address: http://www.hoyer.house.gov/feedback.cfm?campaign=hoyers&type=Let%27s%20Talk

[LittleApple81]

45. I have signed up at www.blackboxvoting.org and given money to them.

But these people are driving me to despair!!!!!!!!
Kansas does not use electronic machines. We use paper ballots with a metal cover to maintain our privacy... and it works fine.

[ParanoidPat]

59. Thank You! Bev and Andy can't do this alone and need our help!

Don't despair, I'll be recording the replay at 2:50 AM EST (11:50 PM PDT) and will post a 'point by point' response to the BS witnessed here with contact numbers for all involved. We can't let them get away with this shit! We MUST let them know that we're watching and paying attention! :)

[Kanary]

43. I know it's discouraging...... two steps forward, one back......

I'm tired, and had another emergency with my eye, so it's hitting me harder.

In the morning, I'll be fresher (hehe), and will read enough to have a "phone blurb" down, and do some calls, then I'll feel better.

Remember...... how many people are going to be contacting them about this? Not many, so our voices will count for something.

Besides, Paranoid Pat will be giving 'em hell..... :evilgrin:

Kanary

[napi21]

41. I'm watching this insanity right now! These people are MAD!!!

I don't mean mad as in angry, I mean mad as in INSANE! 10 feet of paper to print out one ballot? The paper ballot verification took 4 minutes to print each one? Voters didn't want to wait so they left the polling place before their paper varification was printed so their vote couldn't count because the voter didn't see it?

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE????

I have a cheap HP desk jet that prints faster than that!
Why would it take 10 feet of paper? What ever happened to print screen?

I can't believe what I'm hearing here!

[ParanoidPat]

46. Nor should you believe what you're hearing.....

.....AARRRGGHH! :grr:

Look at it this way, you're voting (shopping) for new representatives, how long should it take to print out the list of the candidates (items) you selected (bought)?

TOTAL BULL SHIT! And you can't spell BUll SHit without BUSH! :evilgrin:

[Kanary]

49. Good analogy! ~~scribbling notes~~

*That* will go into my call!

Thanks......

I'd sure like to be a fly on the wall tomorrow, when you call some of these (#$@+4!!!

Kanary

[Kanary]

47. I missed that part

but I've seen enough since the beginning of this to know that they're (the reps) not getting good input.

Please, tomorrow, call 800-839-5276, ask for the offices of these reps (Paranoid Pat has them listed in one of her posts), and give them more info, and to look up BBV, and Bev.

Isn't it discouraging that we plain citizens have better info than our reps?????

Kanary

[ParanoidPat]

52. AHEM! in one of HIS posts!

LOL! I know, I know, I type like a girl! :spank: :evilgrin:

[Kanary]

53. fer shime........ ~~hanging head~~

I'll learn to verify, yet.........

:)

Kanary, duly brought up short...... :hi:

[RedEagle]

58. What a crock

Diebold CAN'T print a voter verified paper ballot with it's current printer. It wasn't meant to. Vote totals, not ballots.

If they REALLY wanted to see a system work, why didn't they invite Avante or Accupoll?

This is a set up, a scam.

Call the congressmen and demand a demonstration from real voter verified paper ballot machines, Avante and Accupoll.

[Kanary]

73. Yes, Call tomorrow! 800-839-5276, ask for congresscritter of your choice

Thanks for the specific info....... I'll have that to add to my call.

Scam, indeed!

Fie on Diebold!

Kanary

[proud patriot]

44. Stop me from Smacking Georgia's sec of state

:grr:

[ParanoidPat]

48. HELL NO! I'll hold her and you.....

.....then we can trade places! :evilgrin:

[Kanary]

51. Ohhhh, goodie! Me, too? Huh, huh, can I? ^_^

[napi21]

54. Me too, me too! I'm already in Ga. so I'll be there!

Now they're saying that it would cost $16 million to implement a paper trail in Ga. HAY, I want the contract! I'll get the printers for ya! Let me do it without any bids like they do for Halliburton!

Oh man, retirement in the Bahamas, here I come!!!!!!!!!!!

[ParanoidPat]

56. "I see you're all in agreement"......

..... "Perhaps we should have you all on the panel when we address this" :puke:

[napi21]

60. I'll be there! Just let me know where and when! n/t

[ParanoidPat]

63. Since you're in Georgia.....

.....you should really sign up as a poll watcher at www.blackboxvoting.org ! :)

It very well may be the most important thing you ever do!

[napi21]

50. Why are we soooo concerned about not connecting the vote to the voter?

I guess I understand if someone voted for ....Kerry for instance, and all his friends thought he was a staunch Pub, that wouldn't be good. What I don't understand is when they told the Rep. from Calif. that the stub she took away from the polls that had the number on could not be traced back to the individual ballot because of the "secret ballot" mandate. What's wrong with a number tied to a number? Still no one would know who cast ballot # 12345.

[napi21]

55. Now the paper is too expensive because it has to be card stock!

Who do they think they are talking to?

Why card stock? And this nut said it cost 35 cents a page. I bought my card stock at Walmart for $1.97 for 100 sheets!

If I scream now, I'll wake the whole family and probably be killed by morning, but it's really tough to just type my complaints and be quiet!

[Kanary]

64. Shhhhhhhhhhhh.... you don't openly mention the "W" word here......

The shopping police will come out of the shadows and commit evil, wicked, mean, bad and nasty things upon your person.

The whole hearing was so full of crap that it's hard to even know where to start.

Kanary

[faithnotgreed]

57. is absentee balloting an option/alternative to this evoting mess?

[ParanoidPat]

61. It depends on what your state laws say....

....Two good sources for State Election Laws are,

http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/state_statutes2.html (Scroll down to Elections) And
http://www.lawresearch.com/v2/statute/statstate.htm#elections

Read up on your local laws, our future depends on it! :evilgrin:

[napi21]

62. I'm not sure. I've heard some states don't count them if the

election isn't a close election. I don't know if it's all states, but I did hear that.

[ParanoidPat]

65. I've read most of the Election Codes listed at the 2 links above.....

....and I think people are confusing 'provisional' ballots with 'absentee' ballots when saying that they're not counted. I have not found anything anywhere that says absentee ballots are not counted unless the race is close. On the contrary, most laws say that absentee ballots should be treated as any other ballots for counting and retention for recount purposes. Hope that helps. :)

[napi21]

66. I just read the one from Ga. and you're right. I do remember

hearing on some TV report that they were only counted if the election was close enough for the absentee ballots to make a difference. ie: if a candidate won by 5000 votes and there were only 250 absentee ballots, it wouldn't matter.

[ParanoidPat]

68. Did you happen to notice that the Ga. Election Code is 379 pages......

.....in PDF format and the new version has NO INDEX! :crazy:

I have read the whole thing albeit several months ago when it was first updated. IIRC, you are wrong about the absentee ballots and have confused their treatment with provisional ballots!!!

I'm trying to find the relevant section now. I'll PM you with the link to the info. :)

[napi21]

69. I dodn't read the PDF, but did see it had no index. I used the other

link and searched for counting ballots. It said "after the polls closed the oiter envelope should be opened so as not to destroy the signature, and the inner ballot should be deposited into the box to count it." I am stating from memory and not quoting, but that was the jist of the statement.

[napi21]

71. BTW, I just remembered where I heard they don't count the absentee votes

in elections that aren't close........Pennsylvania. I lived there in 1997 to 1999. I voted absentee in the 99 primary and was very disapointed when I heard that on the news on election night.

[ParanoidPat]

76. Sorry but I believe you heard wrong!

Unless you can provide more info on what exactly you heard and where.
Military ballots by mail are considered 'absentee' ballots and are counted accordingly. That seems to hold true in every state I've checked.
No one would ever want to go on record as saying that absentee ballots, especially MILITARY ballots, don't count unless the election is close. :crazy:
Once again I think you're confusing 'provisional' ballots issued to people whose names do not show up on the voting rolls at their polling place for various reasons. Many states limit who can file an absentee ballot but that's a different situation altogether. :)

This is from Pennsylvania Election Code, Title 25, Article VIII, Section 3146.8. Canvassing of official absentee ballots.

Upon challenge of any absentee elector, as set forth herein the local election board shall mark "challenged" on the envelope together with the reason or reasons therefor, and the same shall be set aside for return to the county board unopened pending decision by the county board and shall not be counted. All absentee ballots not challenged for any of the reasons provided herein shall be counted and included with the general return of paper ballots or voting machines, as the case may be as follows. Thereupon, the local election board shall open the envelope of every unchallenged absentee elector in such manner as not to destroy the declaration executed thereon. All of such envelopes on which are printed, stamped or endorsed the words "Official Absentee Ballot" shall be placed in one or more depositories at one time and said depository or depositories well shaken and the envelopes mixed before any envelope is taken therefrom. If any of these envelopes shall contain any extraneous marks or identifying symbols other than the words "Official Absentee Ballot," the envelopes and the ballots contained therein shall be set aside and declared void. The local election board shall then break the seals of such envelopes, remove the ballots and record the votes in the same manner as district election officers are required to record votes

[Kanary]

67. Thanks for putting that to rest.........I use the absentee, and wondered

about that. Also my elderly friend was wondering.

In the current climate, and from what I heard tonight, I'll stay with the absentee.

This is sooooooo ridiculous, that in this day and age we can't have safe voting.....

Kanary

[ParanoidPat]

70. Sure you can have safe voting.....

.....move to Canada! :evilgrin:

Everyone votes on paper ballots and the results are in by 11:00 PM! :)

[Kanary]

72. I'd be there if I could! Medical care, better voting,

more pleasant people, and a sense of looking out for each other.

Yup, all in all, I'd prefer being there.

Wish I could..........

OH yeah, what language do they speak there......

~~chortle~~

Kanary

[napi21]

74. I'll come with you. They speak english as long as you don't move to Quebc

Let's check into what we need to do.

[Kanary]

75. I know.......late night silliness.....although......

sometimes I'm not so sure about my English abilities.......until, that is, I hear bushwa*.... :)

I very much appreciate the offer, but......... wouldn't be possible for me. I'm on disability, and they don't want more of us "lowlifes". Otherwise, I'd sure do it!

Wouldn't that be wonderful to be in such a nice place, and where one can sometimes see the Northern Lights...sigh......

Kanary, jes' dreamin'.......

[ParanoidPat]

77. Replay starting NOW 11:50 PM PST.....

....If you need more motivation to join BBV! :grr:

[Bushfire]

78. I'm a member, and happy to post these links from the archives

MSNBC Black Box Voting Blues:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3339650/

Wired.com stories:

http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,61092-2,00.html?tw=wn_story_page_next1

http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,61002-2,00.html?tw=wn_story_page_next1

SLO, CA phones home to Diebold using Optical Scans:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0309/S00067.htm

TheHill.com Hagel’s ethics filings pose disclosure issue:

http://www.thehill.com/news/012903/hagel.aspx

Fortune.com Worst Techonology of 2003:

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/technology/articles/0,15114,558787,00.html

ES&S BBV demo only has 20% error rate!:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=113x7214

Mischelle Townsend Riverside County’s outspoken registrar resigns:

http://lacitybeat.com/article.php?id=1013&IssueNum=55

Salon story:

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/09/23/bev_harris/index_np.html

[ParanoidPat]

79. Thanks Bushfire!

How are we going to motivate 100,000 or more people to contact the folks involved in the hearings over the next few days to let them know we were watching and are NOT amused or placated? :shrug:
I'm taping the replay now and will try to put together a rebuttal to their lame arguments but we need help from DU, MoveOn, EFF, AAR, BartCop, BuzzFlash, SlashDot and anyone else who cares about the future of our elections! It's a dirty job but someone's got to DU it! :evilgrin:

[Kanary]

80. Please share that rebuttal

I'm making some calls this morning, but could do more if I had your expert rebuttal info.

What we need is "Fairness Doctrine" on C-Span.........

Thanks for all your efforts!

Kanary