Bush appointee: Women should be subservient, rape can't cause pregnancy

[JohnLocke]

Hatch backs nominee who backs St. Paul
By Christopher Smith -- The Salt Lake Tribune
Wednesday, Jult 7, 2004
----
WASHINGTON -- Reading from the Bible on the floor of the Senate on Tuesday, Sen. Orrin Hatch endorsed a federal judicial nominee who wrote that wives should have a subordinate role in marriage, with the Utah Republican emphasizing "millions and millions of people will agree with" that view.
(...)
With Hatch's support and that of Sen. Bob Bennett, R-Utah, J. Leon Holmes was confirmed 51-46 in the Senate on Tuesday evening, even though many members of the Senate predicted his nomination would be rejected.
Holmes' writing on abortion, marriage, slavery and other theological issues generated opposition from not only many Democrats but also some Republicans.
Fueling much of the debate is a 1997 article Holmes and his wife, Susan, wrote for Arkansas Catholic magazine titled, "Gender Neutral Language, Destroying an Essential Element of Our Faith." The couple wrote that under Catholic teaching, "the woman is to place herself under the authority of the man" in marriage and "is to subordinate herself to the husband."
(...) Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois, has said the positions taken by Holmes "reflect a narrow view of the Catholic theology and do not embody contemporary standards that should be followed by any federal judge in any state."
Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Penn., lashed out at Durbin's criticism during floor debate.
"We hear so much from the other side about tolerance," said Santorum. "Where is the tolerance for people who want to believe what has been taught for 2,000 years?"
(...)
Hatch also discounted criticism over a 1980 letter Holmes wrote to a newspaper arguing that rape victims should not be allowed to have abortions because "conceptions from rape occur with approximately the same frequency as snowfall in Miami." Holmes has since apologized for the comment.
"I find his statement to be insensitive and appalling," said Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vermont, a former criminal prosecutor who cited studies showing an estimated 25,000 pregnancies occur each year due to rape. "Speak to the family of a 13-year-old girl who is pregnant by being raped by her family's best friend, the next-door neighbor."
Said Hatch: "I believe all of us have made statements in the past for which we wished we could apologize."
----
Read the rest here.
----
People for the American Way did an article on this guy...
----
Today the Senate confirmed President Bush’s nomination of Leon Holmes to the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Arkansas. The nominee’s record of extremism on reproductive choice, the role of women and other issues had generated concern even among some Republican Senators, several of whom voted against Holmes.
(...)
The views expressed by Mr. Holmes about reproductive rights and other issues of critical importance to women are far outside any mainstream understanding of constitutional values. Holmes has callously dismissed the rights of women seeking abortion. He has even minimized the situation of women who become pregnant as a result of rape, stating, "... concern for rape victims is a red herring because conceptions from rape occur with approximately the same frequency as snowfall in Miami." In fact, studies estimate that between 25,000 and 32,000 women each year become pregnant as a result of rape in the U.S., and about 50 percent of these pregnancies end in abortion.
Leon Holmes is one of a number of ideologues who has been nominated by President Bush in his efforts to shift the federal judiciary far to the right. But his nomination and now his confirmation are a particularly offensive insult to American women.
"Holmes’ record and extreme views about the role of women and other subjects will make it impossible for many who come before him to expect a fair hearing," said Neas. "His confirmation is another reminder to American voters that the future of a federal judiciary committed to our rights and freedoms is at stake in this election year."
----
Independent Judiciary also did something on this guy...
----
Nominated to: Judge, U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Arkansas
Status of nomination: Nominated 1/28/03; Hearing 3/27/03
Voted out of Committee: 5/1/03
Biography:
Born 1951, Hazen, Arkansas
B.A., 1973, Arkansas State University
M.A., 1976, Northern Illinois University
Ph.D., 1980, Duke University
J.D., 1982, University of Arkansas
1979-81, Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, Augustana College (IL)
1980-81, Law Clerk, Katz McAndrew Durkee & Telleen
1982-83, Law Clerk, Supreme Court of Arkansas
1983-88, Associate, Wright Lindsey & Jennings LLP, Little Rock, Ark.
1989-2000, Williams & Anderson LLP, Little Rock, Ark.
1989-90 and 1993-1998, Non-Equity Partner
1992, Of Counsel
1999-2000, Equity Partner
2000-present, Partner, Quattlebaum Grooms Tull & Barrow PLLC, Little Rock, Ark.
2000-present, Adjunct Professor, University of Arkansas School of Law, Little Rock, Ark.
Throughout his career, J. Leon Holmes has actively worked to undermine a woman's right to reproductive choice. His zealous advocacy for doing away with such a fundamental right, along with extreme statements he has made about the separation of church and state, gay rights, and gender equality, raises serious questions about his fitness for a lifetime appointment to the federal bench.
----
So, what do all you Naderites think about all this?

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[coloradodem2005]

6. It's terrible when you can say that about a person.

On one hand, I would not wish something like that on anybody. On the other hand, I can understand why you feel that way.

[mhr]

25. If It Takes Tragedy To Wake These Idiots Up - Then So Be It

I don't share your sense of charity!

[coloradodem2005]

73. I am not talking about charity.

I totally understand how you feel. I have felt similar things many times. A very large part of me agrees with you. I cannot say how much because I am not sure. I know where you are coming from.

[jdj]

18. Of course it's possible that he rapes his wife,

and probable that he rapes his daughters.

[benburch]

2. If I believed in hell

I would damn all of these bastards to it.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

9. Didn't some other pol or nominee say that years ago?

I know I've heard the "rape doesn't usually end in pregnancy" shit before.
This pisses me off to NO END.

[coloradodem2005]

12. Yeah.

How anybody can even claim to believe that when it has been known to happen is totally beyond me.

[Mandate My Ass]

48. Stephen Freind (R) PA

He actually said it was impossible for a woman to conceive from rape because the hormones weren't conducive to it or some such nonsense.

Here's a daily dose of irony for ya. Freind challenged pro-choice Specter for his Senate seat in '92(IIRC) and was roundly defeated and now Specter puts another mysogynist moran of the same stripe as Freind on the federal bench. Thanks, Arlen! :eyes:

[fdr_hst_fan]

55. Re: Arlen Specter

You have to remember: Good ol' Arlen is ALSO the MAIN PROPONENT of the "magic bullet" theory of the assination of John Kennedy!

[Mandate My Ass]

58. and the Anita Hill flambee

We have way more than our share of 'em here in PA.

And then there's Santorum...:puke:

[Nobody]

39. In my Catholic HS all the girls got that question wrong on the test

Because we were taught that piece of biological wishful thinking. We all knew better than to believe that only invited sperm can fertilize an ovum.

My guess is that the people who made up that bit of tripe have some amount of compassion but are so virulently anti-choice that they rationalize away having to make an exception for women pregnant by a violent and hateful act. If it can't make you pregnant, we don't have to worry about you aborting for that reason.

But how in the hell is an ovum going to repel invading sperm and not invited sperm? How can the ovum tell?

I can only hope that schools are not continuing to teach this erroneous information.

[k in IA]

74. They told you that a women can't get pregnant from rape at your HS?

Unbelievable. My Catholic HS didn't teach us that kind of BS. I don't remember them teaching us much of anything about sex and I graduated in 1987.

[Nobody]

76. It's stupid, but they did

The teacher in question was teaching a class we were all required to take in 9th grade called "Morality". I got a C.

[iverglas]

93. one good reason to teach that

I use "good" in a special sense, of course.

"Abstinence" just doesn't do much to protect ya against the consequences of sexual assault, be they pregnancy or disease.

If the ineffectiveness of will power against sperm were to be pointed out, some bright spark looking ahead at the risks, or some unfortunate kid already experiencing the problem, might think that relying on "abstinence" for protection from bad stuff maybe wasn't too wise.

I'm not just being facetious. Nuns are sexually assaulted, and nuns get pregnant and get HIV as a result. There are loads of reasons why "abstinence" teaching is stupid and evil, and the fact that it leaves girls and young women who may be at risk exposed to that kind of harm is one of them.

Even if the lie about the protective powers of will power is not being delivered expressly, the message can still be received implicitly.

If the entire message being conveyed is that to avoid pregnancy one must avoid sexual activity, i.e. avoid voluntarily engaging in it, the possibility of pregnancy arising from other situations may not surface in an adolescent's mind.

And a girl who is already being victimized or at serious risk of victimization is probably already avoiding thinking about what is happening to her and what the consequences could be, and clinging to the distinction between what is happening and what she is being told not to do, which makes the possibility of pregnancy or disease, which comes from voluntary sex, unrelated to what is happening to her -- or already feeling so guilty about what is happening to her that she isn't likely going to make it "worse" by consciously and deliberately acting to protect herself.

Sexual assault and unwanted pregnancy are facts of women's lives. Period. Denying that by ignoring it simply exacerbates adolescents' feeling of invulnerability and so reduces the chances that they will take sensible self-protection measures. And that's plain evil.

[Nobody]

96. Not only that

but it also gives the holier than thou an excuse to say to a pregnant rape victim:

You must really have wanted it.

How unutterably cruel that statement is. Imagine telling that to a victim of any other violent crime.

Blame the victim is lurking underneath, and nowhere is it more prevalent than people's reactions to rape.

[fdr_hst_fan]

54. Yeah-is this yahoo for real?

And if he's married, she MUST be a STEPFORD WIFE! Those attitudes sure wouldn't go with MY wifw!

[flamingyouth]

4. His comments on rape make me so mad I can't even see straight

I really cannot write what I am thinking right now. I'm beyond horrified by what this person has said. It's bad enough to believe it, worse to talk about it, and downright evil to try to legislate like this. People who know me here know exactly what I mean.:grr:

[Zomby Woof]

5. there you have it folks

For all of you dumb fuckers who think "there is no difference between the two corporate candidates" and other Ivory Soap Eaters (my new term for clueless purist bastards who do not understand politics), this appointee DELINEATES A CLEAR LINE BETWEEN BUSH AND KERRY, and what we can expect WITH FOUR MORE YEARS OF BUSH.

But that probably goes right over some of your heads.

[flamingyouth]

10. You are EXACTLY right, Zomby

I think this issue clearly illustrates the Grand Canyon that separates the ideals of the two parties. This guy's right out of "The Scarlet Letter.":scared:

[Tyler Durden]

11. GIVE 'EM HELL, ZOMBY!

You'll always be welcome at the Northern Terminus of the New Underground Railroad!

[Guaranteed]

13. And, who knows?

Maybe one day we'll actually stand up for those values!

But one can only wait- I suppose.

[JHBowden]

14. Amen!

:yourock:

[Ithuilwen]

67. I second that. nt

[JohnLocke]

17. That's the ZOMBYTRUTH!!

[Djinn]

19. Bit of an assumption isn't it

JUst because people aren't that fond of Kerry and don't beleive he'll do much about corporate welfare or corporate crime DOES not mean they don't "understand politics" hardly any who beleive Kerry's not TOO far from the Republican have said REPEATEDLY that they'll vote for him.

For you to call them dumb fuckers and clueless when it comes to politics is presumptious rude and frankly in most cases WRONG.

[lazarus]

26. "Ivory Soap Eaters"

I nominate this to enter the lexicon along with "morans" and "Cheney you".

I know I'll be using it, damned fine turn of a phrase.

[ronabop]

27. John Kerry on abortion:

"I oppose abortion, personally. I don't like abortion. I believe life does begin at conception."

Like this slimy judge, he wants us to take us at his word that he will rule/govern fairly, even though he is personally opposed, and belongs to a church that believes in outlawing basic birth control.

I kind of believe him. I wish I could believe him more.

-Bop

[xocolatl]

46. Kerry is believeable

on this issue. I agree with him. Personally, I think abortion is a terrible thing, perhaps murder.

But from a public health perspective, making abortion illegal would cause more harm, and it would primarily punish the poor. Also the "pro-life" camp tends to oppose reasonable birth control measures and sex education, both of which are proven to effect a major reduction in unwanted pregnancies. And the same people seem unconcerned with the unwanted babies that make it to full term.

[cap]

50. Theresa will set him straight if there is any doubt in your mind...

Theresa is on the record stating that an abortion is stopping the life process but if she had a 13 year old daughter who got pregnant she would be pro-abortion.

[fdr_hst_fan]

57. Kerry can THINK whatever

he wants; I have a problem with FORCING other people to bend to your will. Abortion is a matter of PERSONAL choice!

[WindRavenX]

34. word up

Damned straight Zomby.
I cannot believe this man said rape doesn't usually result in pregnancy...omfg, do we live in the freakin' Dark Ages??? :wtf:

[VOX]

36. Zomby -- hammer, nail, head, *whack*

These goddamned right-wing judges will be interpreting the laws of the land for decades.

So every time a deluded soul says, "Gee, I don't know if I can vote for Kerry," we are *all* dragged another notch towards out-and-out fascism.

:grr:

[smirkymonkey]

66. Thank You!

Maybe this will get through to some of the Nader holdouts.

[lastliberalintexas]

77. I give props to Kerry on issues like this

But the vote shows why many believe that there is little to no difference between the *parties* (as opposed to their pres. candidates). After all, 6 supposed Dems did vote for the SOB. And Dem controlled Senates gave us both Scalia and Thomas.

There *are* problems in the party that should be addressed. Burying one's head in the sand and ignoring that fact does nothing to advance Dem ideals. But then neither does calling fellow Dems names- something some here find much more fun than engaging in real debate about the state of the party. :hi:

[Zomby Woof]

84. I was just attacking stupid people

It's a message board - I really don't think it makes a damn bit of difference which tack I take. My way is more fun and the net results are the same: ZW 1, Stupid People, 0.

Anyway, I am at a loss as to why people think my support of the party means some kind of blind obedience to it or its flaws. I could list the flaws for a mile, but I'd rather use this board to point out our virtues, take on the Repubs, and knock some stupid people's heads around.

I am just not a bleeding-heart pansy who is going to roll over and say "Gee, lastliberalintexas, your way would work so much better for me! Thanks, and golly!". I am a kick-ass liberal, and I do not suffer fools gladly. I prefer confrontation. Diplomacy is only for the deserving, and they are rarer and rarer on here.

Now, when given something to debate, I will debate without the names, and kick ass with grace and style... but rarely on DU am I given that opportunity. It's just stupid people everywhere, and I can't help but remind them. ;-)

[lastliberalintexas]

88. Me too

"I prefer confrontation."

Hence, my response to you. I just try to do it without resorting to name calling. You do it your way, I'll do it mine. :-)


There have been many posters who have, at the very least, implied that blind obedience *is* required to be a good Dem. I simply prefer to be faithful to the ideals of the party, rather than to the party structure itself.

And while there are some here who do nothing but bash Kerry and the Dems, they are really pretty rare, and are most likely disruptors of one sort or another. Unfortunately, some of them just happen to be very prolific posters, so that it seems like there are "stupid people" everywhere.

[fortyfeetunder]

7. Voting list

Who were the peckerhead senators that voted that prick in? I certainly hope no Dems were in that mix....

[wickerwoman]

8. Well, it's your lucky day Orrin.

Said Hatch: "I believe all of us have made statements in the past for which we wished we could apologize."

You see, you CAN apologize for it. So why don't you, you fascist dipshit?

[deacon]

15. This is the mindset of our president- a fundie right wing extremist

Are there any doubts left? He feverishly supports extremists for judges.

[AspenRose]

16. Funny, that STILL doesn't sound like much of an apology

"I find his statement to be insensitive and appalling," said Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vermont, a former criminal prosecutor who cited studies showing an estimated 25,000 pregnancies occur each year due to rape. "Speak to the family of a 13-year-old girl who is pregnant by being raped by her family's best friend, the next-door neighbor."


**Said Hatch: "I believe all of us have made statements in the past for which we wished we could apologize."**

That's STILL not an apology, you crass, callous man.

[Sugarbleus]

21. He's a MC Pig........pure and simple

Some men (not those lovelies here on DU) still have that mindset. They just basically hate women. They are afraid of women. They want their gal to stay at home barefoot and well, maybe not stay home but stay working AND raise thier children, service them, shut up, don't spend too much money, don't have a thought. All the while the MEN go out for a little "action" on the side because their wives have become too boring for all the double shifts they pull and all the "obeying" they have to endure. Gawwwwwwwwwwwwwd, I'm sick. :puke:

Orin, you ignorant slut!

[cap]

51. no wonder the divorce rate is so high even among these people

because after a point the woman asks what she's getting out of the deal. If she gets a divorce, the checks keep coming in and she gets her freedom.

[Sugarbleus]

83. Exactly.......

>>no wonder the divorce rate is so high even among these people

With individual freedoms gone, diverse interests quashed, relationships go sour and die.....

[antigone382]

20. Yeah, Boys

Keep your wives subordinate. That way you don't have to listen if they try to open your eyes to the truth around you. And while you're playing around limiting the freedoms of others, the rest of us will try to clean up the mess you're making of everything.

Separation of Church and State? My ass. The founding fathers ( and mothers) are groaning in their graves.....

[undergroundpanther]

22. Why not

Castrate these so called men,if they DARE try to subordinate women by force? I mean you gotta do what ya gotta do to bring sanity back when the insane take control,sometimes you gotta be just as crazy to make them stop.
I mean obviously these dick wads have a too much testosterone and an ego male arrogance/aggression/control fetish problem. Maybe with less testosterone in their bodies they'd be less of an aggressive asshole with an annoying entitlement delusion without the dick to tell themselves because the are male they are "gods Chosen"
If they see their manhood as power and the symbol of their privilege why not revoke it if they abuse people with it.I mean they are insane brutes,they do not want to see other people different then they are as their equals because they are too arrogant and have broken minds and they like their illness because it makes them feel potent.And obviously they are not interested in learning how to relate to others or develop empathy,so I consider them a dangerous and lost cause.
Freakin'PIGS..

[eowyn70]

23. he read from the Bible on the floor of the SENATE????????????

FIVE WORDS, Seperation of Church and State! We need to get Orrin thrown out! Somebody e-mail the ACLU.

[Mallifica]

31. well . . . .

I heard that more outlandish things have been thrown across the floor lately.

Or was that the house?

What was it that Cheney said?

[eowyn70]

24. i'm going to read from the Koran on the floor of the Texas Senate

Anyone willing to bail me out of the Austin Jail House?

[Chili]

29. here's the link

...for the roll call vote:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=2&vote=00153

Breaux (good riddance), Landrieu and Lincoln (?!), Miller (naturally), Nelson , Pryor, all crossed the line.

Disgusting.

Chafee, Collins, Hutchison, Snowe, Warner all crossed the other way.

Kerry and Edwards didn't vote, of course, not that it would've made a difference. Murkowski also didn't vote.

[jukes]

44. Chili

mmmmm, chili....

welcome to DU! :hi:

[Chili]

52. thanks Jukes!

glad to be here! :hi:

[jukes]

43. eowyn70

good post; & i'll contribute to the legal fees.

hi, welcome to the resistance!

:hi:

[eowyn70]

28. oh and by the way Bush is NOT a TEXAN

My Ancestors fought in the Texas Revolution, we've been in Texas since 1820.We have a beautiful Historical marker in Galveston praising the Bavoux Family for their heroics in the Texas Revolution.
Bush IS not a Texan! Please know that we, TRUE TEXANS, would never allow such a cowardly, ignorant, subservient fellow to claim that he was one of us. Only the red-necked new comers claim him.

[St. Jarvitude]

30. I call Bullshit, Rick Santorum

Bullshit.

Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Penn., lashed out at Durbin's criticism during floor debate.
"We hear so much from the other side about tolerance," said Santorum. "Where is the tolerance for people who want to believe what has been taught for 2,000 years?"

"The Sun revolves around the Earth" was taught in Western society for far beyond 2,000 years. That doesn't make it right, and frankly, I will not tolerate you if you support that myth to be taught in public (or even private) schools.

Fuckin' rapist-apologist asshole. This man needs to burn in Hell along with the other "Christians" who have no fucking CLUE of how a Christian is SUPPOSED TO BEHAVE.

[jukes]

45. messiertom

what he didn't vocalize (only because others have been called out on it), but almost certainly believes, is that rape victims were "asking for it."

he'll rule on that premise, secretly, from the bench.



GET YOUR BURQUAS HERE, YOU ORIGINAL-SIN LILITH/HARLOTS!

[St. Jarvitude]

61. This shithead will burn in Hell.

I can guarantee you that my mom and my best friend were not "asking for it." Rick Santorum represents all of the evil that lurks in this world, but not once will you hear Shrub mention him among his "Axis of Eeeevahl."

This Repuke literally makes me want to puke onto the garbage dump he calls a hairpiece and tell him how he was "asking for it."

[fdr_hst_fan]

59. Take away Santorum's bad hair-piece

and you have a young Dick Cheney!

[Swamp Rat]

32. Holy Mormon shit! I'm glad I don't live in SLC anymore.

Fucking fascists! Boy am I glad to be back in New Orleans where it is fashionable to fuck with Mormons and other fundie types... while in drag. I got in a fight with two Mormons in Costa Rica, and when I lived in Brazil I chased two of 'em down the street. Ha ha!

And what about those Naderites? I've been arguing with them in another DU thread. If they want to criticize Kerry - AT THIS TIME - then they can go somewhere else! I'm sick of this Kerry bashing! There is NO reason to attack Kerry in these next few months unless you want Bush to win. I'm all for dissent and opinions, but it's just not practical to criticize Kerry AT THIS TIME. Get that through your thick skulls Naderlovers.

Geaux Kerry/Edwards

Fuck Nader!

[Nobody]

41. A book that might interest you

"From Housewife to Heretic" by Sonia Johnson. She details the Mormons excommunicating her because she was an ERA activist in the early 80s.

[nightperson]

33. The word to emphasize is "lifetime"!

"Now another extremist has been given a powerful lifetime job as a federal judge".

People forget that these are lifetime appointments.

And lifespans are loooooooooooooooonger than ever!

“Today’s vote provides another example of a far-right federal judge named by President Bush and another failed opportunity for the Senate to fulfill its constitutional role as a responsible check on the White House,” said People For the American Way President Ralph G. Neas. “Now another extremist has been given a powerful lifetime job as a federal judge. This kind of nominee should have been rejected on a bipartisan basis.”

[eowyn70]

35. swamp rat, is fo do ce right? My portuguese bad words are rusty.

Vi tomar no co? Is that right. All I know that is correct is Bisha. My best friend is a gay Brazillian Gent, and Bisha is his nickname. I know Bisha is a bad word in Portguese, but my best buddy insists on taking the word as his own. He says "why let someone call me a fag, when I call myself a fag". He is, by the way, my kids Godfather, and I am proud of that fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[theHandpuppet]

37. More on this whacko judge...

More on this neanderthal judge from NOW at http://www.capwiz.com/now/issues/alert/?alertid=6079476&type=CO

Background:

George W. Bush has again gone outside the mainstream and nominated a right-wing extremist to the bench, this time for the Eastern District of Arkansas. James Leon Holmes has actively worked against reproductive rights by serving as the president of Arkansas Right to Life, as well as advocating for an amendment to the Arkansas Constitution that would ban abortion throughout the state. He even stated that “the concern for rape victims is a red herring because conceptions from rape occur with approximately the same frequency as snowfall in Miami.”

<snipping>

Furthermore, Holmes wrote that the proper role of women in marriage should be a biblical one, in which a "wife is to subordinate herself to her husband" and "place herself under the authority of the man." He also made it clear that he would block advancements in gay rights: “abortion brought with it artificial contraception on demand with recognition of homosexual relations to follow.”

I want to know which Dems voted for this dangerous creep!

[cap]

72. how about logic, please???

how can abortion/contraception be coupled with homosexuals. Strict Homosexuals can't get pregnant!!! Think about it! :)

Or does he think that after dealing with all the consequences of screwing around that heterosexuals will convert to homosexuality??? Ya know, something like hetero fatigue leads to homosexuality!!!

[Mari333]

38. The women of America had the biggest march DC ever saw

and they will kick ass if this judge, or Orrin, tries to f*ck with their rights..we havent even begun to fight, little men.

[Pale Blue Dot]

40. Fuck you, Orrin. Fuck you, Holmes.

I'm sorry I can't be more eloquent than that. I know that there is a special place in hell reserved for the two of them.

We MUST get Bush out, and we MUST retake the Senate.

:grr:

[supernova]

42. Thanks for making me angry

first thing in the morning! :grr: :grr: :grr:

What a nightmare this goon is.

Fuck you J Leon Holmes and fuck all who voted for you.

[iverglas]

47. tolerance, and what it means

Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Penn., lashed out at Durbin's criticism during floor debate. "We hear so much from the other side about tolerance," said Santorum. "Where is the tolerance for people who want to believe what has been taught for 2,000 years?"

"Tolerance" means recognizing people's right to think what they like, and do what they like in matters personal to them, no matter how unpopular their beliefs and actions are.

Religious tolerance, for instance, means recognizing people's right to believe in the need for human sacrifices to the gods, and even to expound that belief in public. It does not mean allowing them to engage in human sacrifice.

And tolerance does not mean being bound to place people with beliefs that are contrary to the values of the society - usually, as expressed in a constitution - in positions of authority when it can be expected that they will use their authority to compel others to act according to those beliefs.

As the article says about this nominee:

The views expressed by Mr. Holmes about reproductive rights and other issues of critical importance to women are far outside any mainstream understanding of constitutional values.

A person who believed, for religious reasons or just out of plain orneriness, that women should be subservient to men could be an appropriate choice for the bench IF s/he made it clear that this belief was relevant only to his/her personal life and that s/he did NOT propose that it be applied, as a matter of public policy, to other people's lives.

Such a statement would be much more believable, of course, if it had a history. Making it for the first time when one is nominated for the bench might not be too credible. And regardless of the sincerity of the intention expressed, it is always reasonable to question whether a nominee with such firm beliefs, beliefs that are contrary to the accepted public policy, would be capable of carrying out his/her stated intention.

In something as absolutely crucial as the equality rights of half the population (or more), a pretty high level of confidence in the sincerity of the intention to give everyone a fair hearing and the capacity to carry that intention out would seem to be needed.

One might think that there are quite a few other candidates who would offer a higher level of that confidence, and be at least equally qualified in other respects.

It is disingenuous in the extreme for Santorum or anyone else to use the liberal commitment to "tolerance" as an argument to coerce liberals into agreeing to hand authority to someone who is not committed to the societal (constitutional) value -- not just the liberal value -- of equal treatment.

Liberals are tolerant of other people's deeply held personal convictions, and idiosyncratic quirks. NOT of other people's use of authority to coerce others to live by those convictions or quirks.

[Papa]

63. Exactly

This idiot Santorum is saying "Hey, we need to have tolerence for the people preaching intolerence, and then put them in a position to judge you and me."

Fucking asshole.

[cap]

49. More perversions of Catholic doctrine...

Fueling much of the debate is a 1997 article Holmes and his wife, Susan, wrote for Arkansas Catholic magazine titled, "Gender Neutral Language, Destroying an Essential Element of Our Faith." The couple wrote that under Catholic teaching, "the woman is to place herself under the authority of the man" in marriage and "is to subordinate herself to the husband."


This just aint so. Everytime the passage from St Paul is read in Church, the pastors have always said that interpretation of the Bible is inherently false. On the contrary, they are teaching that MEN must serve their families. The Church does not promulgate female servitude in marriage.

I have never heard a sermon telling me I should serve my husband.

[plurality]

53. Naderite who's even more pissed at Dems now

even among some Republican Senators, several of whom voted against Holmes.

I noticed you bolded this part, did you also read it? Republicans voted against this turd, but he was confirmed anyway, which means Democrats voted for him. So how is blindly following the 'D' team going to prevent nutcases like this?

[porphyrian]

56. What does this piece of shit have to do with Nader again? - n/t

[Sweetpea]

60. they will hold everyone else to statements they made years

ago except the ones they want to forgive. Like Jesse Jackson and the hymie town comment and he is not a federal judge.

[Misunderestimator]

62. Gee Holmes .... S&M much?

:wtf:

The couple wrote that under Catholic teaching, "the woman is to place herself under the authority of the man" in marriage and "is to subordinate herself to the husband."

Wonder how he takes his subordination... over-easy?

And on this: "Where is the tolerance for people who want to believe what has been taught for 2,000 years?"

The tolerance is right here, you Santorumonious shit... we've been tolerating you idiots for over 2,000 years.

[struggle4progress]

64. Bushistas are America's Taliban.

It's really no surprise that the Bushista intervention didn't eliminate the burqa in Afghanistan ... and seems to be bringing it to Iraq.

[Tsiyu]

65. Beat the bitches down

Did I see that Zell Miller supported this? Some of you know that he helped appoint the judge who gave custody of my four year old to the man who repeatedly abused my children and me ten years ago. He is a long-time supporter of abusing women, if the experiences of the women I know in Georgia are any indication.

Raising one's prejudice to a level equal with law is as anti-American as one can get. But this is your government at work against you, ladies. We don't report the daily body count of women killed by husbands, ex's and boyfriends. Those combat statistics are well hidden. The local papers hide these stories; we are too ashamed to ask ourselves "why?"

From what i know about abusive relationships, the threat of death is greatest when you attempt to leave the abuser. This administration reminds me of an abusive partner. Look for them to become more and more desperate and threatening as the next few months unfold, as they lose the power to control the electorate (the formerly cowering electorate). Look for them to claim that those who don't bend to their brutal will are "crazy." Look for more unexplained plane crashes, more lies, more violence. This appointment is only one bruise we've received. Before * is gone, there will be many, many more

[Tsiyu]

68. Kick

[stubertmcfly]

69. so so lame

"generated opposition from not only many Democrats but also some Republicans."

then why the hell did they confirm this guy? seriously, i am starting to lose faith in ALL politicians, not just the GOP. we need to clean house. and we need to do it soon.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[2Design]

71. promise keepers make this same statement

The couple wrote that under Catholic teaching, "the woman is to place herself under the authority of the man" in marriage and "is to subordinate herself to the husband."

Interesting that he believe that too. The first time I heard about the promise keepers, I felt they were a dangerous cult group on the disguise of christians

[JohnLocke]

75. My thread is being featured on the front page! Excellent!

[JohnLocke]

78. Kick!

[mtnester]

79. The Handmaid's Tale

Every woman should read or re-read it...especially now

[JohnLocke]

80. Kick

[Deja Q]

81. Santorum is an interesting fellow...

"We hear so much from the other side about tolerance," said Santorum. "Where is the tolerance for people who want to believe what has been taught for 2,000 years?"

The duke of dork* just doesn't get it. The Biblical teachings promoting slavery, female subservience to men, concubines, et cetera, are WRONG. I tolerate the people stupid enough to believe this barbaric form of thinking but the moment they thrust their views on us all is when the tolerance ends.

And they can say the same thing for homosexuality.

This is why government should be inclusive of ALL and stay out of religion, allowing us all to be who we are. That way nobody can go running to the government about being oppressed because the government would allow it all and take no favorites.

Oh well. So much for a perfect union...

[JohnLocke]

82. Kick

[clonebot]

85. rape certainly causes pregnancy HOWEVER....

the grand majority of them miscarry very early due to physical or emotional trauma and post traumatic stress. i doubt that was what they were refering to though since they actually gave some stupid biological reason as to why rape wouldnt fertilize a female.

[iverglas]

91. rape and pregnancy; no "however" about it

rape certainly causes pregnancy HOWEVER....
the grand majority of them miscarry very early
due to physical or emotional trauma and
post traumatic stress.

I'm sorry, but that's just junk science, except for the possibility of cases in which actual physical trauma was so serious that real damage was caused to a woman's reproductive organs.

Assault and sexual assault during pregnancy certainly increase the risk of spontaneous abortion. And women who have been raped and become pregnant as a result and who are still in the abusive relationship (or trying to leave it) certainly are at increased risk of injury, PTS *and* spontaneous abortion, because of their increased risk of violence (and increased risk of substance abuse, and so on). The risks of emotional trauma and injury and spontaneous abortion are all concurrent -- they correlate; the relationship between the emotional trauma and the spontaneous abortion is not causal. They are both caused by the violence and threat/fear of violence.

Really, PTS just doesn't cause miscarriages.

The thing is that a single instance of sexual intercourse, any single instance no matter how it occurs, is, statistically, extremely unlikely to result in pregnancy in any event, whether because there is no egg present to be fertilized (most of a woman's menstrual cycle) or because the fertilized egg, like so many other fertilized eggs, simply does not implant. So it's no surprise that large numbers of rape victims, considering victims of both isolated instances of assault and ongoing patterns of assault taken all together, do not become pregnant.

But many women are subject to sexual assault -- sexual intercourse into which they are coerced by force or threats, their own inability to give consent (if they are minors) or a situation in which they see no other option -- on a regular basis. They are assaulted by husbands and other intimate partners, or family members or guardians, or family friends, or persons in positions of authority, etc. Over a period of time, they are just as likely to become pregnant as any other woman having regular or semi-regular sexual intercourse, and perhaps more so since they very likely have less opportunity to use contraception and less control over when intercourse takes place.

I was a victim of a violent stranger rape, and I did not become pregnant, not surprisingly. I was using contraception (which of course did have a not negligible failure rate) and the incident happened once in all my potentially child-bearing years.

But that is only one manifestation of the kind of sexual violence that women experience.

To look at situations like mine and say that rape is not a common cause of unwanted pregnancy (as the man who is the subject of this thread apparently does and many others do with dreary regularity) is to use carefully selected and essentially anecdotal evidence. It makes no more sense than to say that people almost never get hit by cars when they cross the street, which is quite true, as a response to calls for traffic lights at a particular intersection where people in fact get hit by cars all the time.

[theHandpuppet]

86. Here are the FOUR DEM TURNCOATS!

http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/legislative/a_three_sections_with_teasers/votes.htm

Senators voting for confirmation:

Breaux of Louisiana
Miller of Georgia
Nelson of Nebraska
Pryor of Arkansas

[Suzi Creamcheese]

94. Senators not bothering to vote: Kerry of Mass, Edwards of NC

explain that one if this is such a big deal

[theHandpuppet]

95. Nope -- I make no excuses

This vote was too important to miss, and I am pretty pissed off about it.

[theHandpuppet]

87. A DU kick because...

I want fellow DUers here to see exactly which Dems voted for this ratbastid. (See my previous post just above).

[JohnLocke]

89. Kick

[Kipepeo]

90. Not that it matters to this dolt

But RAINN estimates that up to 4,315 women become pregnant as a result of rape each year: http://www.rainn.org/pregnancies.html

I wonder how those 4,000 + women and the people in their lives feel about their situation being compared to snow in miami.

[opihimoimoi]

92. Very scary times ahead if Bush gets elected.... Zomby is right.,.

we should work very hard to keep those fundie fuckheads off our bodies.

Someday, Murphy sez, their women will get knocked up and they have to go through with the pregnancy... jus hope the perp wasn't of color or the village Humpback(apologies to those with humps). Of course they would find a way to send the woman off to see cousin in the next State....

But, the point is: Bush and his Fundie Backers are very scary as they want America to be a Theocracy....