Spiderman or F/911: The political divide takes on a new face

[linazelle]

So I'm invited to the movies with coworkers tonight to celebrate a birthday. (I recently moved to Milwaukee from Chicago. The birthday guy's newly relocated from Iowa and had a childhood friend visiting from Denver although both grew up in Chicago.)

Birthday boy wants to see Spiderman. I ask about F/911 and he frowns but before I can ask why he leaves the room on an errand. We get to the show two hours later and in line I ask about the frown. He said he goes to the movies for entertainment and doesn't want to see contrived propoganda. His friend stated he hates Michael Moore. And then, get this--the birthday guy asked with a smile if I had not seen the picture of Richard Nixon hanging in his office earlier. (!!!!) (For the record, I didn't see it but I'm sure as hell going back for a look tomorrow.)

I'm just constantly surprised at the disinformed people that I meet in my travels. (It was only a few weeks ago that I met a guy who didn't believe in global warming.)

These guys were particularly astonishing to me because both were black--so am I. It's hard enough to accept the political divide that exists in this country when you know how self serving the current misadministration is. I find it even harder to accept it when blacks are on the other side because we lost votes in disproportionate numbers in the last election and were blamed for the botched election.

[girl gone mad]

1. I think they picked the wrong movie..

for entertainment. I found Spider-man to be pretty boring overall. I had a lot more fun at Fahrenheit 9/11. Even my largely apolitical husband, a comic book and Kirsten Dunst fan, said that if he had to pick, he would rather see Fahrenheit 9/11 again next weekend than Spider-man.

[AP]

6. I loved Spider-Man 2. It was excellent and (as noted below) VERY liberal

[girl gone mad]

19. Aside from a few..

trite messages that were each repeated at least 5 times (with great power comes great responsibility, there is a hero in all of us, sometimes being good means giving up the thing you want most) and a nice tribute scene to Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, I'll admit any great liberal message was lost on me.

Sure, Spider-man the character is liberal in some of the same ways that Jesus, Robin Hood and Butch Cassidy were liberal. On the other hand, the emphasis in SM2 is quite often on saving, protecting or getting the girl. While Peter and his aunt both struggle financially, Peter's academic gifts indicate he has a future ahead of him, not to mention his best friend is a billionaire and his girlfriend is a model engaged to an astonaut. He's well connected.

I liked the first SM a lot better. Even though they shared many of the same themes, I thought those themes were handled better in the first. Maybe my expectations were too high this time and seeing it again could change that perspective.

[AP]

25. It's not about saving, protecting, getting the girl. It's about...

...sacrificing personaly happiness to help society. If you notice, he didn't get the girl. As soon as she showed up, he had to leave -- he heard the siren and took off.

Also, being liberal isn't about being poor. It's about the idea that, if you work hard, you'll reap a fair % of the value you create for society. I bet Peter doesn't even get that, even though he's working hard in school and working hard to help society as a super hero. His billionaire best friend, by the way, is going to come back as the Green Goblin and try to kill him. With billionaire friends like that, who needs enemies, eh?

Incidentally, the astronaut (to whom MJ is no longer engaged) was in the movie to present a contrasting statement about the meaning of heroism. The astronaut went to the moon. What a hero. What did he do there? Well, he played football. Whereas Parker, who is pretty much unsung for most of the film (and is misunderstood) is a different kind of hero. He makes a real difference in people's lives.

By the way, one fo the strongest indictments in the movie is of the media. To the filmmaker, the media lies -- and the social costs are immense.

Spiderman 2 is brilliant, if you ask me. Everyone should see this movie.

[Bombtrack]

28. Everyone knows Stan Lee is a liberal democrat

and has been one forever. X-men is even more liberal than spider-man.

[G_j]

38. MM and Spidey fighting evil

http://www.villagevoice.com/print/issues/0427/halter1.p...

Michael Moore and Spider-Man fight evil in two new summer blockbusters
The Big Ones

by Ed Halter
July 6th, 2004 11:30 AM

[Officeduster]

30. F-911

is a great and entertaining movie. I would put it in the same catagory as "Dogshow" and "A Mightywind" for entertainment as well as having similar formats. Seriously.

[Enraged_Ape]

2. Spider-Man 2 is one of the most liberal movies in at least a decade

I have never in a blockbuster action movie seen a more honest portrayal of the ruins of Bush's economy, and the plight of our nation's elderly, than the depiction of the trials and tribulations faced by Peter Parker and his Aunt May.

Here's a guy who lives in a shitty one-room apartment, can't even pay his rent or help his widowed aunt hold onto her home, who could easily be sponging off his Broadway star girlfriend or his industrialist best friend. Yet he spends all his time using his amazing powers to help others. If this guy's not a Dem, I don't know what else he could be.

[AP]

5. Spiderman 1 was an argument about the university being more important

to society than the military industrial complex.

Spiderman 2 is about the hegemonic nature of the energy industry and argues that reason can alwasy triumph and that violence isn't neccessary.

I think it's Michael Chabon who's responsible in part for the incredibly liberal nature of these films.

He also wrote an early outline for X-Men which the movie seems to have been based on.

These three films are some of the most anti-fascist, pro-democracy films I've seen recently. (Dodgeball is pretty liberal too, by the way.)

So, yeah, you can't lose with Spiderman 2.

[ContinentalOp]

8. I like your analysis of the Spiderman movies.

I haven't seen the new one yet but I look forward to it. I thought that X-Men 2 was a very interesting movie politically too. The X-Men idea itself is based on the very liberal theme of underdogs and outcasts who are persecuted for who they are and use their outsider status to fight for justice. I've seen a lot of DUers badmouth movies like Spiderman or Dodgeball but I think people who get really involved in politics can sometimes underestimate the power of movies to communicate progressive themes and ideals. A "political" movie doesn't necessarily have to be about policy. It's much more powerful to reinforce the basic values that lead to the political decisions we make.

[AP]

11. Absolutely. X-Men, to me, is explicitly anti-fascistic. It opens...

...with Magneto's mother in a concentration camp and then cuts to the senate trying to pass a law to target people who are different.

As for spiderman, yes, a movie doesn't have to be about policy to be an argument about the relationship between individuals and government or about the relationships between individuals, or about good and evil, or about corporations and poverty and class and race and gender.

[Fescue4u]

12. Liberal?

Wow you think about politics to much.

I watched the movie with my kids. The politics of spiderman never crossed my mind.

[AP]

13. Google "Chabon" -- he contributed to the story. Read what he writes

about politics.

This movie is very subtley an allegory about politics and power and it's about how our society is falling apart, and it's about the role of the corporation in society.

[AP]

15. Also, what's the movie about in a few sentences? It's about a man who

discovers an energy source that can create an imense amount of power (sound familiar? relevant?). He goes a little crazy trying to create it. His desire to do good becomes overwhelmed by some very destructive urges. Meanwhile, the only person who can stop him is having is own struggles about whether he lives for himself, or uses his powers to help society (with great power comes great responsibility -- don't you wish Bush felt that way? isn't this the struggle most politicians have to confront?). Finally, when Spiderman embraces his responsibilities, he battles Oc, but how does he defeat him? Does he use force? Violence? No, he uses the power of argument and an appeal to morality and virtue. This is a playbook for how politics should ideally work.

[T Town Jake]

18. Agreed...

...the notion that everything at every level of life must have some sort of political component is a dreary notion. Sometimes, a Spiderman movie is just a Spiderman movie, not the filmed reincarnation of Das Kapital...

[AP]

26. It's not socialist or Marxist. It's liberal. Chabon in all his work is

very critical of fascism. Why do people presume that he just turned this off when he made his contribution to Spiderman?

[PoliticsSportsMusic]

3. That is amazing....

considering that like 9 out of 10 black voters either went with gore or nader. Wait a minute....you said this black guy had a picture of Richard Nixon in his office???? Get outta here... black people aren't that stupid.

[linazelle]

21. I know, hearing his boast about a Nixon pic was unCheneyin'believable

:wtf:

[leesa]

54. Do you think his point is that he wholly approves of governmental crime?

I've never heard of anyone having a picture of Nixon mounted, unless it was in a collection of presidents, or some such thing.

[AndyTiedye]

4. F/911 WAS Entertaining

Still, if it's his birthday, it's reasonable to let him pick the movie.

[Turanga Leela]

7. Black Repubs just make my head spin...can anyone help me understand?

Related story: last weekend I helped a girlfriend (mom of my daughter's best friend) move into her new place. As her brother and cousin were moving the big pieces of furniture and I was packing boxes, they guys got into a huge political argument. Turns out the cousin is a DIEHARD Bush supporter. His big argument seemed to be that in order to be successful and wealthy, you have to be a republican, and the poor are just poor because they don't work hard enough (But Kerry sucks because he's a rich elitist??!!) ...this from a 20-something black male!!!

So the brother and cousin are having it out, I can't take it anymore and I jump in, supporting the brother's impassioned Dem arguments (I think we were all just hot, tired, and irritated.) Anyway, my friend's brother finally throws up his hands, points to me and says (paraphrasing) "I'm starting to think she's blacker than you are!" and stomps out. (BTW, I'm blue-eyed and Swedish)

Anyhow, the whole incident made my head spin. No, I'm not black, and I try not to presume what other people are thinking and feeling...but how could any intelligent black man look at the Republican party and think "Yeah, that's who I want to align myself with????"

Now, I don't think this guy is a bad person...after all, he lugged heavy furniture on a brutally hot day for a cousin just out of the goodness of his heart. But now every time I see him, I just think, "Dude, what the Cheney are you thinking?"

[ContinentalOp]

9. Let me alter your question slightly...

You asked:
"...but how could any intelligent black man look at the Republican party and think "Yeah, that's who I want to align myself with????"

A better question might be:
How can any intelligent PERSON want to align his or herself with the Republican party? Let's face it. Anyone who does is either not intelligent, not very well educated, or at best very misinformed. Unfortunately so many people in this country are sorely misinformed.

[leftistagitator]

14. There's a nice life for talented amoral people in the Republican Party.

If you have any talent at all you can make a lot of money pandering to your Corporate masters. Of course, you have to be able to not care about the harm you're causing other people, which is surprisingly easy for some.

[oasis]

10. Is birthday boy young enough to enlist in Bush's army?

[linazelle]

20. He's eligible to enlist in Bush's army...now if he would just

find the nearest recruitment office...:evilgrin:

[Swamp Rat]

16. I was at the University bookstore buying a text for class when I had a

conversation with the student worker who helped me (she was black). I started talking about voting and said a few negative things about Bush, and she responded by telling me that she voted for Bush the last time. I was floored, and so was the guy behind me, who was black also. By the time we were done she promised not to vote for that bastard again.

As for Nixon... WTF??? That SOB was the ENEMY of black people as well as people of all colors. He was the enemy of free speech, women's rights, gay rights, the rights of poor white folks that fought in his evil war against the Vietnamese. Nixon was a fascist pigman. How the HELL these guys could like Nixon is beyond me.

[Chili]

17. I have a cousin...

...who's been what many would consider underemployed all his life. He's not just intelligent, he's an intellectual. I don't understand his philosophy on fighting the establishment by refusing to join it, but, he is adamantly against mainstreaming (while I believe you join, you fight, you change the system). So he lives. Happily, I believe, without all the trappings that make some of us (me included) content (no, he has never ever been on welfare and he's now teaching part-time). He's African-American (as I am), but what makes this significant is two facts: he was once a communist, a Black Panther, and a member of SDS. During the last election, he worked at the polls for... are you sitting? The Republican party. Why, why, why? I ask. Because, he said, the Democrats, who he went to first, turned him away. But he voted Democrat.

There is a great divide among many African-Americans who still believe that there's no difference, in terms of their future, between the two parties. There's some truth to this. Because we go back and forth and back and forth between party control of the White House and Congress, (or, as in these horrible times, every aspect of government controlled by Republicans), in the last 30 years, Democrats have not been in complete control long enough to make a difference in the lives of the poor. Had Gore been in the White House, he still would've banged heads with the Republican Congress and progress would've continued to be staggered as it was in the 90's, when many black did crawl out of the economic hole. But since 2001, we're right back where we started in 1992. A deep distrust of government is in evidence in the poorer segments of the black community, and you see it at the polls... half of us aren't there. If anyone heard the guest on CSpan two mornings ago (damn, can't remember his name - Gray of SC, black Democratic strategist), he said it perfectly: some blacks feel they've been taken for granted at the polls, while still, they turn out, year after year, the most loyal base of the party in terms of voter block. It's more complex than that, but... there are many who feel that government just doesn't care, no matter what the rhetoric.

However, the people described above in the other posts do not fall into this category. The only thing I can say is this: there are some African-Americans who are more than willing to turn their backs on the poor and forget how they got to the point where they COULD. It's the same callous insensitive selfish I've-got-mine-so-fuck-you mentality that keeps the Repubican party alive.

[Kipepeo]

52. This attitude

"I've-got-mine-so-fuck-you mentality that keeps the Repubican party alive."

is so true, in my opinion anyway. It's how conservative women and log cabin republicans make sense to me too. Otherwise I would be dumbfounded.

The point about there being no difference between the two parties (or that perception being out there) is really important. I *do* feel like the Dems take the 'minority' vote for granted (whether it's the black vote, the gay vote or the feminist vote) to an extent. Just look at the inability right now for Dems to support gay marriage, with no qualifiers. I am a realist, however, and I will support the Dems no matter what, because I *know* the Repubs aren't working for my interests in the least....I just wish the Dems would more openly embrace/address (and defend once they get in office) the causes of the communities who vote for them over and over again.

[cmf]

22. I'm just dumbfounded

To know that there is a black dude out there somwhere who has a picture of Nixon hanging in his office. (BTW, I'm black, too.)

[sleepystudent]

23. It's not an either/ or thing

I saw Fahrenheit 911 on a Friday and then saw Spiderman 2 the following Sunday. It's possible to like them both and get something out of them both. And it's also possible to appreciate what Michael Moore is doing and still find him quite annoying. I know I do.

And also, it was his birthday, so he probably should have the right to see what he wants to see. Watching F 9/11 didn't put me in a celebratory mood-more like nauseated and fearful.

Were black people "blamed" for the botched election? I'm black and I guess I never heard that before. I thought we were the victims and we were the only ones who stood up and complained ( The Congressional Black Caucus at the beginning of F 9/11 )

[linazelle]

24. My point is not that we HAD to see F/911--it was his choice as you

state since it was his birthday. I was shocked by the negative and very conservative response--it just is not what I'm used to from blacks.

[Selwynn]

27. Spiderman2 was the best superhero movie I've ever seen.

[AP]

29. Me too. These two Spiderman movies are some of the best blockbusters

I've ever seen.

[Joanne98]

31. Spiderman = stupid, shallow

There are always people like this no matter what color they are. The young people are flocking to it in droves. that's all that matters. Time outlasts all.

[AP]

32. Spiderman is not stupid and shallow. It's very smart.

[Dardi]

34. Stupid and shallow???

Have you seen it? Tell me you saw it before making that statement. Spiderman 2 is the farthest thing from stupid and shallow.

[Joanne98]

35. I don't mean to insult Spidey lovers but........

I just hate comic book action figures. The hero anti-hero thing is boring to. I doubt if Spiderman viewers noticed the liberalism of the film. Wal Mart shoppers don't think that deep.

[Joanne98]

36. No I haven't seen it.

I thought it was just another action film. Maybe I will. I liked Matrix one.

[AP]

39. Just because many people didn't notice doesn't mean it's not in there.

And for those who did notice, it makes watching this film an extremely satisfying experience.

And I think even if you didn't notice explicitly, you're still influenced on some levels by things you see in the film.

For example, you're a fool if on some level you don't walk out of that film appreciating that it's a noble thing to try to help poor people, and if you didn't realize that in the movie the people who loved Spiderman the most happened to be minorities (like the black guy at the paper, the black kids on the street and the asian family whose kid Spiderman saves).

For years, it was always the minority and the immigrant who were the villains, and I don't think anybody would seriously deny that that sort of racism has ramifications outside of the movie theater. Well, Spiderman turns all those things on their head and has a very positive cultural impact.

(I suggest people contrast Spiderman to Cold Mountain -- in that movie, the filmmakers make the argument that the civil war was very difficult for white people. The only mention of a black person is when the woman takes some lemonaide out to the slaves. Later she admits she was only doing that as an excuse to go out and see this white guy she had a crush on. Think about what a movie like that is arguing.)

[Selwynn]

48. Ah, so perhaps instead of saying stupid and shallow you should say

... I hate comic book action figures, and leave the rest of us to enjoy the things we enjoy without insulting them.

Also, who do you think you are making statements like "I don't the viewers of spiderman noticed the.... "wal mart shoppers" don't think that deep. That statement is insulting on so many different levels I can't begin to calculate.

You need to deal with the fact that just because you DON'T like a particular genre of entertainment doesn't mean that people who do are stupid or shallow.

I am capable of both liking F911, and liking a movie like Mystic River, AND YES, also liking spiderman. I grew up with it in my childhood, and I enjoy having FUN with the entertainment now.

So you can take your mass stereotyping, over generalizing, prejudicial, ignorant insulting blanket statements trying to act as though you are qualified to speak authoritatively about the psyche of every spiderman movie goer and shove it.

It'd be nice if we could just be free to enjoy what we enjoy without having to put up with condescending bull crap like this.

For the record, I have a degree in philosophy, am really damn smart, and I work profressionally as a project manager for a fortune 250 (actually its in the top 20) company. In my spare time I study literature and work on a volunteer basis with local activist groups whenever I can. I really don't care if its "unbecoming" for me to say all of that about myself, because of course according to your thinking, I must actually be stupid and ignorant becuase I really enjoyed Spiderman 2.

[Selwynn]

47. I like it, I must be stupid and shallow.

[tom_paine]

33. Quisling and dupes and sellouts and fools are not unique to any one people

Scratch ANY grouping of people, race creed, or color, and you will find roughly the same proportions of Quisling and dupes and sellouts and fools.

Unfortunately, the mechanisms the Founding Fathers created to prevent the Rise of Kingly Tyranny is dying, and now such people hold the fate of our nation in their hands...

[K-W]

37. Everyone needs to stop this rediculous Spider Man F911 thing NOW

It is a ludicris comparison that only serves the right wing.

[AP]

40. Huh?

[K-W]

41. People need to not compare or contrast Spider man and F911

it only serves to make F911's success look less impressive. They have absolutely nothing to do with each other and people going to see them are looking for a vastly different thing. Ive already seen articles belittling F911 in comparison to the box-office juggernaut of Spider Man and it is silly. I think it was in the Daily news where it talked of Micheal Moore at a F911 showing being drowned out by the spider man crowd and looking desperate.

Edit: btw it is hard to respond to a huh, you could be a little more specific.

[AP]

42. There's room for both S2 and F911. They're basically making similar

arguments from the same point of view.

Rather than try to pretend that there aren't long lines for S2, it's probably more productive for people to see a left reading of S2 here on DU so that they can see why long lines at S2 help democrats.

[K-W]

43. No on is trying to pretend anything

Spider Man 2 is a super hero movie. It does and should trounce F911 in the box office. Spider Man 2 is not a partisan or issue movie. It is silly to compare the two and only serves to downplay the success of F911.

[AP]

44. S2 is making an argument about society that comes form the left.

What's wrong with discussing it?

[ContinentalOp]

46. I'm surprised how many people here are resistant to the idea...

..that a "stupid superhero movie" can have political implications. Last year when X2 and Matrix 2 came out around the same time I was annoyed that so many "intellectuals" and places like Alternet were discussing the Matrix sequel as though it were some deep philisophical work. Personally I found the film to be kind of reactionary (gearing up for war to save "Zion" from destruction??) not to mention laughably bad. When I mentioned to various intelligent left-leaning folks that I thought X2 was a much better, deeper and politically inspiring film they thought I was insane. :shrug:

Oh well, the important thing is that the messages in these films can make an impact whether or not the audience consciously realizes what that message is. What you've been saying AP has been right on.

[FreedomReload]

50. I Have Never Seen A Review With Your Kind Of Analysis

You should be a movie critic.

[HornBuckler]

45. Show Your New Friends This

http://www.georgewbush.com/News/photoalbum.aspx?gallery=29&page=2

I Post This Link A Lot - It's From George Bush's Official Web Page Under The Heading Of Compassion (It's A Bunch of Photos Of Bush Hangin' Out With Black Folk)

That Might Make 'Em Think Twice... Damn Bush Retard

:)

[fujiyama]

49. It's silly

to try to compare the two movies. Many people will end up watching both.

Spiderman 2 is made primarilly for entertainment purposes. Little else. It's an entertaining superhero movie. I saw it. I enjoyed it. Perhaps there are aspects of it that may subconciously change the way people look at things. For example, X-2 had a strong message of tolerance and equality in it.

[FreedomReload]

51. More thoughts about the media

The Daily Bugle is the equivalent of the New York Post. Spreading lies about liberals (Spider-man) in order to sell papers. Just look at the article on DU's front page. The interesting twist of course is that Peter Parker takes the pictures which are used to libel his alter-ego Spider-man. I cannot believe I never bothered to think so deeply about this movie.

[leesa]

53. The picture of Richard Nixon???? How warped is that?

[JackRiddler]

55. Two great movies!

Saw both on premiere nights in NYC, loved both, case closed.

They're both on the cover of the Village Voice this week with the subhead, "Doing Good Really Pays Off."

http://villagevoice.com/issues/0427/halter1.php

Moore understands correctly that if popular, leftist positions are going to enter the medium of mass entertainment, proponents will have to speak in the writ-large language of the blockbuster: good vs. evil, Jesus vs. Satan, Spidey vs. Doc Ock, America vs. Dubya. "Even though the kind of films Moore makes are a far cry from Spider-Man 2," The Hollywood Reporter wrote last week in an article entitled "Top 10 Things Moore Did Right With Fahrenheit," "it's clear that he understands how important it is for a movie, especially a comic-book story driven movie, to have a colorful villain." Unfortunately, our death-dealing leader answered Moore's casting call all too well.