Are Kerry & Edwards Liberal Or Are They NOT Liberal?

[KittyWampus]

lots of DU'ers bitching, moaning and gnashing of teeth about the GOP Talking Point Kerry/Edwards is the most Liberal Ticket yet.

Assertions that this is all the GOP and Mediawhores have to use.

But no effort to actually say either Kerry are or are NOT Liberal.

No actual rebuttal.

Mostly avoidance by saying 'what's wrong with being Liberal".

So is Kerry Liberal and Left of Center? What about Edwards.

An avid Edwards supporter contends a study shows him Left of Ted Kennedy.

Is there any consensus?

And unfortunately saying "it's not all black and white" or that "labels don't mean anything" won't work too well in the press or politics. Swing voters probably don't have time for nuance.

Modern Campaigning is all about Labels and Image. And Kerry has shyed from having the term Liberal.

So what does his campaign wish to be called as regards the Political Spectrum? Anyone know? Or should we just say the term "Liberal is not useful"? Or maybe, "Kerry/Edwards are Liberal and Proud of their devotion to American Values"?

This is NOT an attempt to bash Kerry, Edwards or any DU'er. It's an attempt to take an objective look at our 2 fine candidates and come up with the appropriate Image & Terminology... rather than just reacting to the GOP talking point.

[GreenArrow]

1. depends on how you define liberal,

doesn't it?

[ibegurpard]

2. Exactly

which is why the "most liberal" talking point should be countered with derision. It's a stupid cliche that is so overused it has no meaning. Spokespeople should roll their eyes and say "do you have anything NEW to say?" when the radical righties roll out this moth-eaten dinosaur.

[Toucano]

4. You're so right. To even discuss this nonsense

lets the republicans frame the debate and plays right into their hands.

Everybody will discuss the "who's a liberal" junk instead of focusing on ISSUES that people care about.

I thought we'd settled this useless label nonsense during the primaries with all the "My guy is so a liberal!", "No he isn't! How dare you!" threads.

:crazy: :silly:

[KittyWampus]

18. I Agree, But What Is Your 10-15 Second Talking Point To Rebute

GOP talking head who spouts the "most liberal ticket" nonsense.

That's what I'm getting at.

If you were... um, Paul Begala... or even one of our 2 candidates and you only have one sentence to answer or redirect the "debate"
what is your suggestion?

[Toucano]

25. I understand.

I didn't mean to insult you btw by saying the whole thing was nonsense. I'm sorry if it seemed that way.

I'm working on a pretty good analogy, so let me get back to you later tonight when I've worked it all out. :)

[sangh0]

26. My 3-second rebuttal

Since when is protecting the nation, our jobs, the economy, the budget, civil rights and the environment a Bad Thing?

[KittyWampus]

28. Sangh0- I Kiss You Full On The Mouth!

THAT'S what I was hoping for!

Very well put.

[qazplm]

3. I'd say by

most standards they would be considered liberal.

They are left of center on most issues, and I would think independents and conservative Dems would find them liberal.

Now those very far left only think about 10 people in the entire country are actually "liberal" lol but for most of us, yes, I think they qualify.

[Kanary]

5. We keep picking candidates more and more to the right

to satisfy the "right", and make them "more electable", and, *surprise*, they're still labeled "very liberal" by the RW press.

Isn't that amazing how that works?

:shrug:

Kanary

[Az]

6. Its not really a question of how liberal they are

The problem is how liberal is the nation ready to be? With the right firmly in control of the medium in which we discuss ideas they control what any president can effectively accomplish. Without a vocal support for left ideas Ghandi could not move this nation to the left.

Kerry/Edwards offer us an opportunity but we have to shoulder the burden as well. We have to get the ideas out there before the public. We have to counter the rights efforts. And the right has a massive head start. They are much better at propoganda than we are. And they can outspend us.

If we want there to be a difference we have to make the difference. The charges that the Democratic party has sold the left out are not entirely true. The left has lost momentum. We have lost our way. We really need to find it again.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

8. That is exactly the question

and they are as liberal as you can get nowadays and get elected.

[Codeblue]

17. Propaganda

I'm glad they're better at propaganda than we are. The day the liberals start spewing the kind of propaganda the neo-cons do, I am so out of this country.

I'm very far left on most issues, but I dont think propaganda is the way to win or solve anything.

It just alienates people. Especially liberals since I think they really are smarter than conservatives and dont just fall for a bunch of BS.

[Az]

20. Poor choice of words

I meant to suggest that they engaged in propoganda where the left (hopefully) engages in honestly presenting its arguments before the people.

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. Not liberal to a Green Kucinich supporter like me, BUT

they are not crazy like * either, so that earns them points in my book.



http://politicalcompass.org/

[cheezus]

10. exactly. as much as I'd love a Kooch or Wellstone...

it aint gonna happen. I'm a wild-eyed left loony, and these guys are fine by me.

[TahitiNut]

9. A picture is worth 1,000 words.

The "middle of the road" in the US has shifted 50 points to the right.

The vast majority of voters do not have an adult memory of the pre-Reagan years.

"Fish will be the last to discover water." (Einstein)

[DaveSZ]

11. Center-right

Yeah I guess that makes them liberal.

Kucinich and Nader and Camejo are more socialists.

[DaveSZ]

12. They are center-right

Yeah I guess that makes them liberal.

Kucinich and Nader and Camejo are more socialists.

[TahitiNut]

13. The overwhelming majority of DUers are in the lower-left quadrant.

Even the self-proclaimed DLCers lie in the upper-right sub-quadrant of the lower left quadrant. With the exception of Kucinich and Sharpton, the Dem primary candidates are almost indistinguishable from Republicans of the 50's and 60's.

For context ...

[Still_Loves_John]

29. How do they make these compasses

I mean, what is the criteria? Do they use a formula or does a guy just subjectively put dots down on the thing? I like how Kucinich and Al Sharpton are the equivalents of the Dalai Llama and Nelson Mandela.

[TahitiNut]

37. Read about it here ...

http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/usprimaries.html

[West Coast Democrat]

43. You posted this after I posed the question

But I must day that there are various political quizzes on the internet, all have different valuations and come to different conclusions.

Anyway, I generally disagree with this quiz.

[TahitiNut]

48. Have you taken it yourself, yet??

Try it. http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html

[West Coast Democrat]

35. Saddam Hussein is definitely not that far to the left

He may be authoritarian, but please, to the left of Nelson Mandela!! That just goes to show how wrong that scale is.

[TahitiNut]

38. Please try reading what the 'compass' means

That axis is about economic issues ... where 'right' favors the virtually unregulated independent use of wealth and economic power. Under Sadaam, much of the wealth and power were controlled by the state. Remember, his relatives (including his sons) were part of the ruling 'elite'!

Think of it this way: Top-left is where government controls the allocation of wealth and top-right is where wealth controls the allocation of government.

[West Coast Democrat]

40. I thought the compass was supposed to be Political, not Economic

An Economic Compass is a whole other matter

[TahitiNut]

44. It is political.

:eyes: (sheesh) Read: http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html

Then do a Google on "Political Compass" and read the analyses and pot-shots.

[Trajan]

15. One point ...

Kucinich is against abortion rights: right ? ..

If so: then how can one define THAT position as 'libertarian' ? ..

Doesnt really matter: no one is perfectly anything ...

[TahitiNut]

24. Kucinich is pro-choice AND pro-life.

I really don't understand why that's so difficult to grasp. :shrug:

[West Coast Democrat]

31. I think that scale is a bit off

but what is the source?

I think many DUers would be upset, for example, to see Howard Dean to the right of Kerry and Clark.

[TahitiNut]

41. Well, Dean IS clearly to the right of Clark and Kerry.

Again ... 'left' and 'right' on the political compass has to do with the political regulation and allocation of wealth.

Thus, 'left' would include progressive taxation, aggressive anti-trust enforcement, increased minimum wages, higher taxation on unearned income (i.e. that derived from the labor of others), ... in all, a lower GINI Index.

Currently, the GINI index in the US is in the mid-40's and going UP. We're virutally a banana republic, with the highest GINI index of OECD nations with the exception of Mexico.

[Trajan]

14. Same old label game ...

You want to play it too ?? ...

I was called a Communist for supporting Food Stamps ...

The label is all over the map ...

[KittyWampus]

21. Can You Offer An Effective Rebuttal Or Redirection Then?

what does one say to a mediawhore or Right winger who spouts this?

Is the idea to just brush aside the assertion entirely (ignore) and just talk about another topic?

The American people are hearing this right now... and they will be hearing it a whole lot more.

[Trajan]

45. It is simple ...

I am not a communist, since communism has a specific definition that is not qualified by support for food stamps ...

I usually call them liars ...

[porphyrian]

16. Aristotelian Essense Question

I don't think any politicians "are" liberal or conservative. They choose which camp they want to try to succeed in, then take whatever stands they see fit to get votes, and stay vague on all the other issues. Liberals and conservatives make good appointees, but not good politicians, because most voters fall somewhere between the two rather than at the ends.

[kentuck]

19. Yeah, I heard they were practicing heterosexuals also....

Ooooo-ooo...

[Kong]

22. They Are Liberal Enough For Me - That All That Counts

ABB

[AP]

23. They defy the categorization because their conviction is bigger.

Edwards and Kerry's voting records, in large part, reflect the politics of the states from which they came (this is particular clear with Edwards, who liberal ranking is heavily weighted by votes made after he decided not to run for reelection).

So, what you're left with when you realize that there's a tension between their convictions and the political realities of having to run for office and sastisying your constituents is that you have to ask yourself what these guys believe in.

With Kerry, mus of his activities as a young man tell you exaclty what he believes in. For Edwards, his convictions come from the story of his life as well.

It's perfectly obvious what they stand for: they believe that America is stronger when economic, political and cultural power spreades broadly among a large middle class.

That's definitely liberal, but it's not liberal in the sense that it's antithetical to what moderates and conservatives believe -- thus it defies the categorization of liberal and conservative that Rove would like you to believe exists.

[wadestock]

27. You're falling into a carefully laid trap....

The term liberal has been carefully turned into "weak-knee moral misdirection" by the neocons.

There is no way that anyone can gage "liberalism"....how do you do it....based on key issues of abortion, taxes, religion....come up with something....none of it makes sense. Which one rates higher than anything else. Give it up....it's a con game.

Get back to basics.

DEMOCRATS are fighting for the middle class of this country.
Is there anything in what either Kerry or Edwards has said that is NOT absolutely not right on this point. Edwards stands a good chance of getting us the first workable version of national health care as "preventative care" for children. BRAVO. Kerry HOPEFULLY will be successful in negating Bush's tax cuts to the rich. If you rate that as liberalism....give them a 100% from me.

You might want to POSSIBLY challenge their stance on the war...and I hear that Kerry is talking about a couple more divisions....and one might say....hmmmm...they are being a bit too premature about this at the very least. So if anything....there is some foreign policy things you might want to keep your eye on here.

But the "liberalism" meter is pure BS....and has been trumped up only to denegrate democrats.

DON'T FALL INTO THE TRAP!!!!!

[silvershadow]

30. compared to this administration

Ronald Reagan was a screaming liberal.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

32. You forgot a category...

"It doesn't matter because the PRIMARY goal is to remove the Neo-Nazi-Cons from the centers of U. S. power."

[KittyWampus]

39. I Dop't Think That Would Play Well In Preoria

and my intent is go past the GOP talking point and also find an appropriate "comeback"

Sangha came up with a great response-

GOP Talking Head "Kerry Edwards is the most liberal ticket ever"

Democrat Rebuttal "protecting working families, the environment and veterans is a GOOD thing".

[Media_Lies_Daily]

33. They're running against the Dynamic Neo-Nazi-Cons...

...that's all I need to know.

[HuckleB]

34. Is this really worth our time?

Are they a specific label or not a specific label? That probably depends on the definition of that label for the person you are discussing the matter with.

Whatever.

[louis c]

36. Liberal is in the eye of the beholder

Ask a Friend these questions

Should workers have the right to collective bargaining?

Should workers have the right to join a Union?

Should the federal Government enforce health and safety standards?

Should the Government provide public education? Assist in college tuitions?

Should the Government ensure health care?

Should a worker receive time and a half on holidays and on hours worked over 40 in a week?

Do you believe that what consenting adults do is no business of the government's?

Do you believe in freedom of speech, and of the press?

Do you believe a woman has a right to make decisions concerning her own body?

Should there be no discrimination of any kind, anywhere in the United States?

Should the federal Government ensure that we receive our S.S. benefits?

Should the Government regulate and license businesses and individuals, like doctors, electricians, plumbers, truck drivers, pilots, and lawyers?

Should the Government provide day care for children of mothers who work?

Should the Government help those in serious health and social need, such as elderly parents who need assistance to stay with their adult children? Afflicted children who need special care?

Should the Government provide research to cure disease?

Should the Government create low cost housing for the poor who can't afford it?

Should the Government regulate polluters, or should we let corporations operate on the honor system?

Should women have the right to choose when and with whom to start a family?

Should every worker be hired without regard to discrimination of any kind?

Should women receive equal pay for equal work?

Should corporations no longer receive tax breaks for outsourcing American jobs?

Should the Military not be privatized?

If you believe in a majority of the above concepts, you're a liberal.

If you believe in all of them, your with me.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

42. Which is why if he's split 50-50 here

Kerry is a winner in the general electorate.
He has positioned himself well to bring in the midstream voters we need to win.

[KittyWampus]

46. Great Line Louis. "If You Believe In X, Y, Z Then You're With Me"

or with Kerry Edwards.

Thank You.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

47. They do have fairly liberal voting records.

So, in that sense, yes they are both pretty liberal.

[TahitiNut]

49. In a Republican-controlled Congress ...

... 'liberal' means voting on right-wing legislation. It's a political Sophie's Choice.