How did men get women to support institutionalized sexism?

[Misinformed01]

I cannot for the life of me understand how women can vote against their own best interests-

How can any professional woman speak of "feminazis?" Do they not realize that they are in the positions they are because of women that demanded to be treated with respect and dignity?

It's not just Conservative women who use this crap either: in a ridiculous effort to appear more feminine (I suppose...that is the best I could come up with...I am willing to be enlightened here) I have heard women who claim to be Liberals, or Democrats, pronounce "I am not a feminist."

Or God help me, Liberal men who use the language of sexists (Think "The Man Show" garbage) and just think of it as a "male thing."

I do not understand. I want to, but for the life of me, I don't get it.

[elfwitch]

1. Self loathing?

I cannot be sure. But I agree it doesn't make any sense.

[displacedtexan]

2. Women vote their husbands' wallets.

Weird, but that's what I've observed.

[Misinformed01]

3. It is very weird, I agree

but, this does not explain single women (I don't ever use Anne Coulter as an example; I believe her to be mentally ill) nor does it explain Liberal men using that language.

?

Anyone?

[elfwitch]

5. What does that mean?

Women vote the way their hubby's do because they are dependent on the "breadwinner"?

[MountainLaurel]

30. Potentially valid

After all, the decrease in domestic homicides in recent years has been linked to women's improved economic interests separate from spouses, which allows them to leave bad situations before they're murdered.

[Iris]

95. Let's qualify this, please -

SOME women vote their husbands' wallets.

Some of us are not that self-centered/selfish.

[Bombtrack]

4. How is "the man show" sexist?

FEMINISM:
1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

That's just where I'll start. I know you clearly believe your defintion of feminsm, which appears to be infirmary feminism is the only definition of feminism.

I think that alot of liberal people believe feminism is a good thing, such as myself, but it can be taken to a hostile militant extreme. Just like ethical treatment for animals is a good idea, but people get turned against the movement in the abstract because of annoying nutjobs in PETA, or what the ELF people do to the environmental movement.

And No I don't believe in the Rush Limbaugh view that most women who believe in abortion-rights and so on are in any way out of the mainstream. Conservatives like him refuse to admit that liberals have won the culture war on every major issue except gay marriage.

[Misinformed01]

10. I have a question

Is the definition you provided not your answer for your question?

#2.

Doesn't the Man Show foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex?

[Bombtrack]

15. Please don't answer a question with a question, you shouldn't have to

That kind of debate never get's us anywhere. The charge was made that "The Man show" is sexist. And I'm defending it by asking people to back up that charge. Jimmy Kimmel and Adam Corolla are a couple of liberal people who haven't bought into the BS fascistic political correctness like their predessors and inspirations such as George Carlin and Howard Stern never bought into it. People aren't used to seeing what you see on the Man Show, because this country is about 20 years behind Europe when it comes to sexual expressional freedom. But the continued sexual repression that goes on in this country is unfortunatly perpetuated by infirmary feminist attitudes(and their counterparts on the religious right) that need to be challenged.

[Misinformed01]

18. OK, then let's try this

Here is one of the definitions of feminism that you supplied:

2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

Women dressed in bikinis, cheerleader outfits, and negligees jumping on trampolines to entertain the men on stage is "behavior that fosters stereotypes of social roles based on sex."

I don't give a good goddamn what Europeans think of women on trampolines unless there happen to be some European DUers that want to chime in here.

[ibegurpard]

31. I agree

"sexual expressional freedom" is a two-way street.
It doesn't involve women OR men putting themselves on display as mere objects of lewd derision for someone else. That's not sex...that's a a power issue. That's not to say I advocate banning it but I'm certainly not going to hold it up as a stellar example of freedom of expression.
I must admit that I find some things on "The Man Show" to be funny but, like Howard Stern, I find their depiction of women to be juvenile and revolting and for that reason I tune it out.

[Bombtrack]

34. What is wrong with that? An attractive woman jumps on a trampoline for

30 seconds, get's paid hundreds of dollars(the SAG minimum) and it becomes a gimic to get people to watch a mildly funny show. WHO DOES THAT HARM? What is stereotypical about that? It's something straight men are stimulated by at a biological level. Arguing about women being "objects" is just a useless exercize. What do you want to do, proclaim the biology that the better looking a person is the more people, particularly of the opposite sex, want to look at them is ethically or morally wrong? And that marketing decisons based on that are wrong?

It's called freedom of thought. And it's a cardinal sin of pollitical correctness to try and equate the struggle for women to recieve economic and legal equality with the mish/mash of reasons(ranging from the remains of institutional cultural religiosity, infirmary feminist propaganda or nostalgia, and jealosy of those more attractive than that)that SOME women don't like or hate men who either voice or don't voice their desire to observe or experience sexual stimulation of any sort from the most attractive women.

[Misunderestimator]

92. What is wrong with that?

Are you fucking kidding? The PROBLEM here is that unlike EUROPE where you can see billboards with naked MEN and WOMEN on them on the roadways... here you see only WOMEN objectified. Not to say that I would want to limit the rights of cable stations to show whatever the hell they want (limited to adult humans)... but the fact that we have shows here like the "Man Show" that feature buff women jumping on trampolines, but we balk at a tiniest glimpse of a breast at the Super Bowl, is a sign of the sickness in OUR society. And YES it is a sexist issue.

[Bombtrack]

155. The sickness is your inability to see that the people who balk at Janet's

breast are the people on your side who are against things like the Man show.

[Misunderestimator]

158. On MY side!

Now THAT is funny. I would bet you big money that the same asses behind the uproar over Janet's breast, don't have any problem with the Man Show. The DIFFERENCE in those two things is that Janet's breast was an entirely insignificant event in which a woman's breast was exposed, and not meant to demean women per se. The MAN SHOW depicts women in this objectifying light EVERY time it airs.

[Name removed]

196. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Misunderestimator]

203. How I wish I had chosen "Infirmaryfeminist" as my user name...

What utter bullshit you spew. PUHLEASE... I like to see a beautiful, naked woman as much as any man. Doesn't mean I want to see them in an objectified manner. And it also doesn't mean that I have a problem with anyone who gets off seeing that. MY problem is with the double-standard in THIS society that so blithely allows and even condones the objectification of women while leaving MEN all lofty and clean.

[Rowdyboy]

240. You like to see a beautiful naked woman as much as any man, yet

your profile says you're a female. Makes me take everything you say with a LArge GRAIN OF SALT.

[Susang]

205. I nominate this as the most sexist post of the thread!

Thanks Bombtrack, you made my day. :eyes:

[Misunderestimator]

208. I'll second that!

[noiretextatique]

213. i'll third that

i'm printint it to give to my very attractive friend who is hounded by men all the time. hint: she doesn't like the attention.

[Kipepeo]

228. I think it has stiff competition from some of his

other posts in this thread.

If there's one thing that makes me want to vomit it's a man telling a woman what she shouldn't find as sexist.

good god

[Tosca]

225. Infirmary feminists?

Could you explain this phrase? It's a new one for me. Never heard it before.

Do they gather in emergency rooms?

[noiretextatique]

104. that's not "biology"...it's social conditioning

that stimulation from objectifying women.

[Cats Against Frist]

122. too true.

We're vessels that will fill with all the bullshit that we can take. Some people simply have better filters than others.

[noiretextatique]

134. so true...don't know if it was my filters

but even when i was a young girl, i saw how the adult women in my family were limited by their acceptance of gender role limitations. and i saw a lot of them go crazy as a result.

[Iris]

129. thanks for pointing that out.

It's something that often gets ignored in these kinds of debates.

[noiretextatique]

139. if it's biology, that means nothing can be done about it

it's simply a copout...one that ignores the importance of sex role socialization. a big part of that for boys (at least in this culture) is learning that objectifying women is natural.

[Iris]

141. I totally agree.

The sad thing is that this sort of objectification can make everyone miserable in the long run.

[Iris]

186. "and jealosy of those more attractive than" they

Why is this alays used as an argument? What about this - Even an ugly woman can be "hot" - all it takes is sleazing yourself up enough to get the attention of whatever men happen to be around.

[slinkerwink]

52. that's definitely SEXIST

I laugh when men try to tell me it isn't. It's like the rapist telling the rape victim it really isn't rape.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

88. You tell me..how is a show that reduces women to tits and ass SEXIST?

[Kipepeo]

223. Oh Please

If you can't see the sexism in the "Man Show" then I doubt you'll ever see it anywhere.

It's likely the most sexist piece of shit currently on TV. Even the commercials make me feel attacked as a woman and go a long way to 'putting me in my place.' ie. reminding me of my gender and how all I'm valued for are my breasts and my ass.

[wryter2000]

6. Younger women have forgotten

You have to remind them that women couldn't get credit in their own name. That Bella Abzug had to sit in the hallway to hear lectures in law school (Harvard or Yale, I forget?) Remind them that Yale and Harvard didn't take women students. That women weren't hired for jobs because, "You'll get married/pregnant and quit. Besides, a man needs this job to support his family." That women couldn't get an abortion, and they had to lie to an ob/gyn about their marital status to get contraception, or else they had to put up with a lecture about their sex lives.

They've heard feminazi so often, and no one challenges it. Just getting them to think helps.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

7. As a woman in business, I'm very sensitive to this issue

I have reamed colleagues for using the term 'feminazi'-women included.

I agree-people tend to vote against their own self-interests. Especially the middle class.

[rumguy]

8. Be careful - don't over apply that sexist label

Jimmy Kimmel and Adam Carrolla are not sexist.

Neither is Howard Stern.

They support women's rights, they are pro-choice.

[Bombtrack]

11. Exactly, they(people who do this) cheapen the term by never hesitating

to slander men who are just being honest and un-PC about what's in 95 percent of straight men's heads, and allot of it's rooted in the prudish religiosity that has infected this country, womens discomfort in hearing men speak honestly about their sexual attractions and feelings.

[Misinformed01]

13. Slandering men who are just being honest

Un-PC.

Do you hear yourself??

Discomfort in being objectified??

Jesus Christ n' Cheney....sorry, friend...but, if you can't think past your biological urges, that is a serious problem.

[wuushew]

19. I am glad someone else has problems with the Man Show

any form of humor that objectifies people has serious problems. There are better, smarter forms of humor like satire which I get plenty of with shows like the Daily Show. Personally I always found Adam Corolla very annoying. Jimmy seemed like a nice guy.

[Ripley]

25. Frankly I thought Jimmie was a twerp on Stein's show and

an even bigger asshat on NFL show...he really doesn't get his facts straight and always with that attack on what's his name...get's old.

You know there actually are movies, books, etc. involving sexuality and women that aren't objectifying, degrading and trashy. Too bad so many guys (not you) seem to think I should like being referred to as a "Juggie." How many shows are there where men are reduced to their penis sizes...I'd like to see their reactions then...

[rumguy]

32. His new show on ABC is great

You should check it out i bet you'd like it. It's smart, funny and he uses clips for news shows and other things to skewer our popular culture.

He's also has taken some great shots and Bush and Arnold.

[Cheswick2.0]

168. Imagine if men had to showcase the size of their penis

to be considered attractive. Do you think we might see an upsurge in penile implant surgery?

[ibegurpard]

183. You just described the Howard Stern show

except it's women, not men.

[indigobusiness]

192. Women that showcase their tits in an effort to be considered

attractive...aren't.

Women that are comfortable in their skin, and are not self-concious...are.

[Susang]

206. Perhaps not to you

But I know a helluva lot of men who drool at the mention of Anna Nicole Smith and her ilk. So what does that say about the nature of attractiveness?

[rumguy]

29. Cultural freedom is a two way street baby

Men objectivy women, some women enjoy it. Women objective men, some men enjoy it.

Would complain about lesbians objectifying other women?

Women have sexual and personal freedoms like they've almost never had before in history.

What's worse - the Man Show or living in a world of repressed men (and women) who stifle their desires and force women to cover up their bodies.

[redqueen]

33. False dichotomy

*yawn*

[Susang]

35. I'll take door number three please

Since I know there are more choices than just the two you've listed. :eyes:

[prolesunited]

42. You mean there is some sort of gray area

between parading around in bikinis and short shorts and wearing a burqua? Who knew?
:shrug:

:hi: Imagine us meeting on a thread like this? :-)

[Misinformed01]

45. I am exhausted!

I haven't been able to post for a while because I just got off the trampoline and put some clothes on!

Whew!

Thanks to all the women for showing up on this thread, and helping me to try and understand all this!

Stephanie

[Cheswick2.0]

175. Personally, I just had to put my

tits away for the evening. I had them out on display for a job interview this afternoon and the wonderbra was killing me.

[ibegurpard]

190. SNARF!

:yourock:

[Cheswick2.0]

195. Why thankee sir

:hi:

[slinkerwink]

219. haha, ouch.

so much for the wonder of the bra!

[Susang]

47. You betcha!

Slow day at work so I figure I'll post on DU and piss some people off! ;-)

Feeling better?

[Nikia]

70. There is, but going clothes shopping makes me wonder

I hadn't been clothes shopping in over a year. We had a $50 gift card from Sears and my husband said that I should spend it on clothing since I don't have enough summer clothing. In the Misses section, we had clothes that looked "old". Then we had the junior's section, where all the clothing was very revealing. The difference was very clear with the shorts and the bathing suits. The misses section only had knee length shorts. The junior's section had low rise shorts that had length just milimeters lower than one's underwear. The junior's swim suits were all two pice suits that didn't cover much. The misses suits were all one piece and very bulky, not good for swimming. I bought five shirts in the junior's section that I found acceptable, but no shorts that I wanted. I had wanted a new suit but I guess I'll have to go to a sporting good's store for that.

[noiretextatique]

118. you should see the young women parading around

at our local flea market on sunday :wow: a few weeks ago, i saw a young woman wearing only a bra...the strapless corset type, with those hiphugger jeans the younguns all wear :wow:
it seems desperate and pathetic to me...and sad.

[rumguy]

44. The only doors are choice or not choice

If you don't like abortion, don't get one.

If you don't like The Man Show, don't watch it.

People make their own decisions.

Some women like dressing in bikinis and showing off their cute butts.

Personly I think that The Man Show is a bit over the top. But some of the humor on the show is very funny.

I don't like Hooters either, never been to one, nor do I want to go. But I see a whole hell of a lot more redeeming value in The Howard Stern show than in Hooters.

[Susang]

59. Just love to miss the point, don't you?

I wasn't talking about banning The Man Show. As a matter of fact, nobody on this thread (at least up until I started typing this) has said anything approaching banning the show. I was merely responding to your limited choice of options as stated below:

"What's worse - the Man Show or living in a world of repressed men (and women) who stifle their desires and force women to cover up their bodies."

You do realize that with "choice" as you call basic cable television, also comes critique? See, that's how entertainment has worked ever since the first human decided it would be a good idea to act out situations in front of other humans. The other humans get to say whether the performer likes it or not. It may not seem fair, but that's the way it goes.

[rumguy]

68. I'll criticize Victorian prudishness when I see it cloaked as PC labels

I'm just saying that when we live in a world of choice people will make choices we sometimes don't like. Applying a term like sexist is an overreaction, that's my critique of your critique....and often it leads to talk of outlawing or regulating...

[ibegurpard]

75. I understand your concern

and I share it and for that reason would object vehemently to any organized efforts to, say, ban something like "The Man Show." However, I feel have no compunctions about expressing my disgust at it, at the men who patronize this kind of exploitive "entertainment" and at the women who allow themselves to be a part of it.

[Susang]

180. Yet you have no problem with labels like "Victorian prudishness"

Not to mention "PC" which to me, has become a label people tend to cast on others to defend their own bad behavior.

By the way, I enjoyed the subtle sexism of your calling the use of the word sexism an overreaction. It sort of brings to mind over emotional, hysterical women, does it not? Intentional or not, it was not lost on this female. And that's my critique of your critique of my critique.....

[Cheswick2.0]

182. huh?

Where do you see victorian prudishness? It is possible to be against the exploitation of women's bodies and not be a prude.

Don't get all upset there will always be sad pathetic women willing to objectify themselves for your pleasure. But I will tell you this...I think your relationships with women are doomed to be unsatisfying and you are not even going to know what you are missing. I hope for your sake that karma will smack you over the head and teach you some wisdom before you are too old to appreciate it.

[Iris]

108. "Some women like dressing in bikinis and showing off their cute butts."

Do you know how many strippers actually hate men? Do you realize a lot of women who think this is "fun" start to turn into very angry women before it's all over?

[rumguy]

114. I wasn't talking about strippers exclusively

I don't know if what you say about stripper is true.

[Iris]

120. You must not get around much.

[Cheswick2.0]

178. was someone suggesting we were being forced to watch the man show?

I don't like the man show and I don't watch it and I am free to say it is sexist crap and to say it loudly and to whomever I think might be open to some education on the matter,

Several months ago I had some lefty type friends make the argument that they could not be sexist because they were liberal....LO fucking L. Liberal men are just as likely to be ignorant about feminism and sexist as centrist or conservative men.

[lapislzi]

41. How about a world where gender is a non-issue?

I don't know if that's possible, because I believe that some gender identity is hard-wired into our biology (cf evolutionary psychology). But it's a start to keep asking, "why, why, why?"

Religious repression of women and overt sexual objectification, however, are two sides of the same coin.

It is not hard-wired into humans to treat one gender as a commodity to be traded.

[rumguy]

51. There will always be a component of objectification in sexuality

[wuushew]

60. How do you make the objectification more egalitarian?

Where men and women are under equal pressure regarding their sexual status, work and other social pressures? Since this is essentially impossible we should strive to use the power of our minds to overcome the negative social impact such objectification creates.

[Misinformed01]

61. To the point of women not getting jobs they are qualified for?

There is something inherently wrong with an industrialized/technical modern society where women are judged solely for their "cute butts."

The Man Show fosters and encourages that attitude towards women to the detriment of society.

[rumguy]

73. That's wrong

But The Man Show ain't the problem. If anything it's an over-the-top parody of male and female sterotypes...

And there women who enjoy that show and others like it...

[Cats Against Frist]

77. If you don't mind me being frank

I agree with you. Before I became almost "ascetic" through critical theory -- my main sexual turn on was being dominated. Seriously. It's something that I was unabashedly proud of, and I scoffed at Naomi Wolfe's suggestion that sex should always be "equal between equal partners." Because what fun was that?

After I was able to "deconstruct" my own sexual narrative, I was disgusted by the fact that I bought into this so obvious of a construct -- and cheered, Wolfe -- but I have to say it's made sex a lot more boring for me.

So what to do? Life is a lot more boring without a racecar, a diamond-studded dress or a hovercraft -- and yet I've gotten over most of my material prurient desires for the good of a kind of "transcendence," for the good of the cause, etc? Why should sex be treated any differently? If holding this narrative of dominance, submission, etc., puts womens' practical lives in a much more terrible -- and possibly somewhat subconscious, therefore, harder to fight -- position, why would I continue to enjoy this?

Which marked the end of viewing most porn for me. Which cut my sexual fantasies basically out of the question.

To some extent -- you're right -- it's puritainical, and plays into the "worst" envisionment of a feminist world, where everyone is "unisex," etc.

I don't have the answers. I suppose no one does.

[rumguy]

93. fascinating, excellent post

Sexuality is a complicated thing.

It's been said that powerful people willl often like to be dominated during sex - because they feel they have to be in control of the rest of their lives so during sex they like someone else to take the power. I don't know if that is true in all cases, but it's probably true some of the time.

[shimmergal]

159. Oh, Cats Against Frist, I'm so sorry.

Personally I like erotica better which doesn't depend on the power differential for its "punch." There are some great stories that don't, (and films too I guess; I don't watch any visual porn that much).

However, I think your predicament is fairly common among women. Ellora's Cave, the e-book site that's had huge sales because of its erotic-themed novels for women, sells more of the "older, dominant male" with "younger, naive woman" stories than any other type. They're now venturing more into consensual B & D stories too.

I attribute it to deep-down cultural conditioning. Perhaps there's some small amount of evolutionary rationale for it too--after all, lots of sex in the dim human past was probably forced and not especially gentle. The women who couldn't get turned on by that (or at least tolerate and survive it) didn't have many descendants. But I'd say it accounts for 5%, maximum, of the dominance/submission fantasy's appeal.

Keep looking; somewhere there are non-dominance narratives that you'll find exciting.

[indigobusiness]

209. Cats Against Frist...will you be my god?

After that post, I am willing to believe anything you say.

[lapislzi]

81. Why would that be necessary?

Objectification occurs in a power relationship, or when commodities are traded. I suppose if one treats sexuality as either of those, then you would find objectification.

A better question is why sexuality is brokered in power relationships.

[Nikia]

82. I'd prefer that

See post 67# in my thread about sexism. I'll accept that because of biology most men would prefer to have sex with and perhaps marry more attractive women. What I won't accept is that I, as a woman, am judged for my body in every situation. I want my gender to be a non issue in my social relationships (I am married). I want my gender to be a non issue in my career. I want to be judged as an equal. I don't want to be judged by my body.
I accept the need for free speech. It is a Constitutional right. The fact that there is so much objectivication in the media though approaches propaganda.

[smirkymonkey]

162. Thank you!

Sexual objectification is about power and has nothing to do with lust. In fact, I would say it is quite the opposite. You are correct in stating that repressive sexuality and overt sexual objectification are two sides of the same coin.

It's like anorexia and gluttony - both suggest an abnormal relationship with a basic biological need.

[Iris]

101. Since men control most of the media

I'd say your rationalization is a little unbalanced.

[rumguy]

133. that's a valid point

and I agree

[Iris]

144. thank you!

[Kipepeo]

244. In other words

'Shut up and be happy with what we gave you. You should be thanking us.'

[Cats Against Frist]

39. Nobody has "honest" sexual attractions and feelings

It's all conditioning. The only instinctual markers for beauty are hip-to-waist ratio, symmetry and, to some extent, youth.

Cheerleader? School girl? It's called watching too much porno.

Not all men are capital "S" sexist, and yet, those are somehow the worst, because they are not particularly concerned with equality, when it comes to their own cock.

Sometimes -- not all the time.

Isn't what separates us from Republicans our ability to transcend something? Like obvious base sex sterotypes and cheap turn ons?

[Cheswick2.0]

164. ah... the ' WE CAN'T BE FORCED TO BE POLITICALLY CORRECT ARGUMENT"

What makes you think there is something bad about political correctness? Your heroes have brain washed you into thinking that you too can be sexist assholes and excuse yourself with a lot of self serving and self righteous blathering against religiosity blah blah blah.....

Yours is just an excuse to continue to behave badly.

[Ripley]

17. Just listen to this crap...

The Man Show isn't sexist? What a joke you guys are. Ask any woman if that show is sexist and guess what the answer will be.

Do you really think jokes about Jugs and strippers humping the men in the audience and long videos of "girls" jumping on trampolines so their tits will bounce..is progressive and treats women in a feminst loving way?

There is a big difference between women participating in sexual material and women being objectified by the material. If you can't see the difference, you need to learn a little.

[Misinformed01]

20. The problem is that there are men

who would call you "repressed." There are women who would call you "insecure."

The language of sexism is nasty, and I think we are going to see much of it from both sides concerning the wives of the candidates very soon this summer.

Read the whole thread; it's getting depressing before there have even been 20 responses.

Stephanie

[Forkboy]

58. "Ask any woman..."

My sister likes the show :shrug:

[Misinformed01]

62. I am sure your sister is nice

I wonder how funny she will think it is when she is 40, and her husband is watching cute 20 year olds on the trampoline.

[Ripley]

66. Does your sister want to be a Juggie...

when she grows up? If so, I'd say she has some issues with self esteem.

[Forkboy]

71. She's already grown up,thank you

and her self esteem is excellent also,thank you.

[Cheswick2.0]

198. nah....not so good

her self estime needs some work even if you and she don't relize it.

[Forkboy]

67. She already is

and he already does.She's comfortable enough with herself not to care.

[Misinformed01]

72. I am comfortable enough with myself to care

and I am 40 also.

I care very much that younger women are being encouraged to emulate the way the "girls on trampolines" look...or to dress and act like Brittany Spears to catch a man.

I care very much that women are being led back to the fifties, and that women who have worked their asses off for equal rights and respect are called feminazis.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ripley]

94. What, you don't think women in the adult movie business

would like The Man Show? How is that insulting? I honestly cannot see any women outside of the sex industry enjoying that show. Despite a few anti-Bush jokes, we all know the point of the show. It is meant to be as sexist as possible and see how far it can get away with.

I didn't insult your sister, I simply cannot envision any truly feminist woman watching that show and saying "I love it!" other than sex workers or perhaps some lesbians. I don't consider it to be an insult to someone to question if that's who they are.

[Forkboy]

106. What a joke

So if I insinuate that your mother might be a porn star you wont be offended?

I didn't insult your sister, I simply cannot envision any truly feminist woman watching that show and saying "I love it!" other than sex workers or perhaps some lesbians.

I didn't say she loved it.I also would point out that there are things in this world that are true whether you're capable of envisioning them or not.

But go with your "more feminist than thou" shtick.

[Ripley]

110. My mother would never watch The Man Show and

claim to like it, as you said your sister did. Oh, I guess you didn't say she "loved" it, but it is implied she really likes it or why would she watch it? I don't watch shows I don't like. But maybe that's just my weird envision thing that I think I have...like a super power...

You're a hoot!

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Iris]

132. so Ripley should exalt low-brow entertainment just so h/she won't appear

uppity, snooty, elitist, snobby or whatever you're trying to say?

[Ripley]

137. Yep, according to a few guys here I'm:

snooty, Victorian, prudish, radical, insulting, etc.

I'm so happy I have men to validate (or not) my existence, my views and my defense of half the population of the world, even the dumb ones.

[Iris]

149. Well, thank God we will never run out of men who are willing to provide

this service for us!

[noiretextatique]

165. LMAO, Ripley

snooty, victorian, prudish, radical, insulting women are FANTASTIC, imho.
:loveya:

[Cheswick2.0]

207. I doubt he has any idea of how his sister really feels about that show

I think his sister is kind of being objectified for the purposes of this discussion. She's kind of like a convenient sister "Beard".
That's just my guess.

[Iris]

111. or "I want the men in my life to think I'm 'cool, or hip'" - just like the

bouncing girls want the attention of any man they can find.

[Forkboy]

91. As does she

Ask her first husband how much shit she'd take from any man :)

[Cheswick2.0]

204. it's worse now than the 50's

At least then you were not harrased for being a prude if you didn't want to join wet t-shirt contests and kiss you girl friends on camera during spring break. Girls now are expected to be sexually active at 15 and willing to dress like hookers to attract men.

[Cats Against Frist]

136. Ah ha!

I was waiting for this one. Now I've seen every pat anti-feminist argument to be had. This one works well with class envy, too -- the only possible explanation for your "social mindedness" is jealousy. Please, give me a break.

I've lived my life first, as an overweight kid, a gorgeous, blonde mid-20s bimbo, and now a pleasantly, slightly overweight mother of one beautiful boy.

I've seen it all. And being "fine" is nothing to be jealous about. I worked and beat myself up my whole life until one moment, after a pint of JD on a hotel bed, wearing tight pants, a tight black shirt and a thong -- a man said to me: "You're too pretty to talk to."

That is a GOP class argument, re-cycled to keep women down. It is a dirty attack, partially true, partially not -- but dirty and below any civilized discourse.

[Cheswick2.0]

193. watch out for her

She's ripe pickings for the bangbus.

[Tosca]

64. The Man Show

simply caters to the American male's fetish for big tits. It's so overdone and so juvenile that I sometimes think it's parody.

[indigobusiness]

146. It is parody...

to a large degree. It skewers both sides.

[Susang]

201. I used to think so as well

Until my friend got a job on the show. Now I know better. Not only did they talk the talk, but...well, you can guess the rest.

[Tosca]

Well then,

Both sides deserve each other. If you're a woman and you sign up for that kind of show, you deserve what you get, as far as I'm concerned.

[Susang]

22. I know a woman who used to work on the Man Show

She would beg to differ regarding The Man Show's sexism. Actions often speak much louder than words. In this case, they spoke volumes.

[noiretextatique]

109. sexist are NOT necessarily misogynists

and answer me this: why must one be "careful" about calling people sexists or racists, but not as careful about cautioning people not to do that? that is ODD.

[Cheswick2.0]

160. bwahahhahahah

Just because they support choice doesn't mean they aren't sexist.

[Pithlet]

163. Being liberal

doesn't automatically mean someone doesn't have sexist views. All you have to do is look at some of the posts at DU to see that. Very few people are 100% liberal in all views. Even liberal people have flaws. I'm sorry, but one cannot defend themselves from an accusation of sexism by saying "But I'm a liberal!"

They may very well support those things you say. But that doesn't change the fact that they often objectify women in their programs. And that IS sexist. I'm not saying I think it should be censored. But it fits the definition. I don't think they're all that concerned with it, however, and a lot of people find it entertaining.

[Kipepeo]

232. Being Pro-choice is not a one-way ticket

to Feminism. Where do you get this crap?

Our society is a Sexist and Racist and Heterosexist society. You DO not grow up in a contaminated society without taking some of that in, no matter who you are. You are not absolved of your sexism or racism or heterosexism by donating a few dollars to Planned Parenthood, the NAACP or the HRC. I wish it were that easy.

The number ONE clue that you've got some sexist issues is if you're a MAN telling a WOMAN what is and what isn't sexist.

I'll thank you to walk in my shoes before you tell me what I should let roll off my curvy back.

[seabeyond]

9. feminism in the 80's took away the feminism of who we are

why so many women clearly say not a feminist. i think we should all get beyond that now, realize what happened and embrace the word, as we do liberal. that too was made into a nasty word

so will say loudlyu in my feminism,.........i be feminist liberal, hear me roar

[lapislzi]

12. Many reasons. Speaking as a domestic abuse survivor

...I can tell you that the first step is to change the parameters of what is "normal." It's the old define the terms of the debate canard. If a woman believes that gender roles are somehow "defined" and never questions that definition, your battle is won before it's begun.

Maybe you've been raised that way, or your religion tells you that women are not as strong as men, or have sharply delineated roles in society that must be adhered to. If you never ask "why does it have to be this way?" then you can never move out of that corner. You accept what IS and never wonder if it can be any other way.

If you believe you require the physical or economic protection of a man, then you are buying into the "weaker sex" nonsense. Women who believe they're the "weaker sex" believe they ARE voting their best interests when they support patriarchal or authoritarian interests. Some people would rather be protected than think for themselves. Sound familiar?

Such women often feel threatened when they see self-reliant, independent-thinking women and then feel the need to belittle them with insults.

[Mandate My Ass]

26. Excellent points

I agree and am also a survivor. Luckily I never internalized or agreed with my abuser's distorted, self-serving rationalizations but you can bet your bottom dollar I hid that fact from him. He thought I bought his bullshit and he also thought I voted the same way he did because that was my survival mechanism. Others who are not so lucky actually buy into the distortions for the reasons you so eloquently stated.

Once free of the situation I realized how he had to work 24/7 to try to maintain his position and I feel more disgusted pity than anger toward him now.

I feel the same message delivered in the same method from this administration and RWers and it's very disturbing.

[lukasahero]

14. Not sure

Since I'm not one of them, I'm not sure I can give you an absolute answer. I can tell you though that my mom is one of them. (Arg.)

She's in her late 60's and all she ever wanted was to have kids and a family. She never wanted to work but found herself in a world where if she wanted to "keep up", she had to. She resented having to work and since she had never prepared herself for the possibility, she never managed to make the transition from a job to a meaningful career (not that she would have wanted to anyway). Of course this only speaks to the reasoning of women of a certain age. And I know plenty of women alot younger than her who still buy this crap.

I think we have to realize that women haven't had options/real voices for all that long. I mean, heck, there are still people today in our own government who say and believe that women are not equal to men (see the "women should be subordinate to their husbands" judge...) If that kind of talk and mentality is still out there and being heard by little girls all over the world (heck, feminism is "responsible" for the terrorists hating us, the decline of Amerika, etc...) then I don't know why we should be surprised by girls to grow up to be women who believe it.

The only way to fight it is to teach each new generations of girls/women that this all is a pile of crap.

[Cats Against Frist]

40. Bravo.

:bounce:

[hlthe2b]

16. I remember many female friends expressing their adamant denials

of being a "feminist" (during my years in college and grad school). I can't imagine any of these women went on to become Repugs--too well educated and intelligent for that. Nonetheless, the stereotype of feminism that they took to heart was one of 1. single (and by that I mean indefinitely single), heterosexual professional women married to their jobs and constantly incuring the disdain of men who were intimidated by their assertiveness, intelligence, or superior income; or 2. lesbians.

My guess is that most of these women friends would not mind the label now. (I certainly don't, but then I don't mind being labeled "liberal," which has been similarly "villainized" by media and the RW). With age and maturity comes wisdom, independence and the ability to discount social perceptions.

Nonetheless, if you asked women on college campuses to this day if any of those stereotypes "hold" or concern them, my guess is that they would say yes.

Truly, society's way of holding women in check.....

[slappypan]

21. class resentment

Some women who have had fewer educational and career opportunities in society resent upwardly mobile women. Hillary Clinton is a symbol to them of everything they resent. As working class and lower middle incomes have declined, the two-income yuppie families seem to get all the breaks. And many women would prefer to stay home and raise children, but economic realities force them to enter the workforce. I guess it's all too easy for them to make feminists the scapegoats.

[redqueen]

23. Lazy thinking

Women who are ignorant of the struggles of those who fought for the rights they squander. Men who don't care to think too hard about what they enjoy, lest they start to feel guity about it and then not enjoy it as much.

I've lost friendships from telling guys about the preponderance of victims of abuse in the sex industry.

[Cats Against Frist]

24. Isn't it that third-wave, reversese psychology feminism bullshit?

The one that says that to wield the most power you should use your beauty, and dress like a catholic school girl in a porno, and men shouldn't rape you, because you're not a whore?

Oh, we find out now that that was just a way to kill feminism and equality?

That's what I thought.

Women are coerced into voting against themselves, because conditioned men float fascist construct like "I want a woman who looks like a woman," and it's so salient, it passes down to nine-year-old girls puking their lunch up, so THEY TOO can enter the all-out pursuit of glory through beauty, anesthesized to anything else.

Media images condition men. Men condition women. Everybody rots in their low self-esteem. Women without self-esteem do not think they deserve anything -- in fact, they're most likely not thinking about anything at all.

Welcome to a sad and soulless reality.

[redqueen]

27. Maybe it would help if

girls didn't grow up watching mommy spend $$$ and time 'prettying up'.

We teach our values / priorities to our kids. If we don't want image to be the be-all end-all it always has been, then as parents we know what we have to do -- stop participating.

[Susang]

38. It would help

If Mommy didn't lose her job if she didn't "pretty up". Unfortunately, in spite of regulations that are supposed to guard against it, they do. It then becomes a matter of survival, social and economic.

[wuushew]

43. That is why the United States must emulate Sweden

Where more women are politicians than men, paid maternity leave is excellent and social,economic and educational opportunities are far more equal than they are here.

This can never happen until our country starts moving forward and to the left. I really don't think it can happen, I mean look at who half of all voters support.

[Cheswick2.0]

214. look at the democratic party

My party get the support of 60% of women and how many years are we supposed to accept that a woman can not win the presidency?

How many more years are we going to accept the "its not the right time" or "this election is too important to take a chance" arguments?

You know if we formed our own interparty alliance we could demand the world and get it. What would the democratic party do if we all organized and voted as a block? What if we withheld our votes or made politicians bargain for them?

[redqueen]

46. Oh I agree

I put my makeup on in the car after I get to work. Sit and listen to news while I do that for a few mins before entering building. Makeup is only foundation/concealer. Sometimes mascara/lipstick, depending. Even with the extremely limited exposure to this tradition as I give them, my daughters still are very aware of makeup and want very much to start using it (preschool/kindergarten age).

Sad thing is I have many friends who consider the warpaint thing as something that makes them feel better about themselves.

*sigh*

[Misinformed01]

49. Absolutely

I wonder how many posters here recognize how hard it is for older women to get jobs when the person they are competing with is somehow found "better looking?"

[Ithuilwen]

48. All I can say is

my mom hardly wears makeup or worries obsessively about being "beautiful" -- yes, she likes to look presentable, but that's a totally different concept. I am sixteen, and I don't wear makeup, I loathe Britney Spears and her ilk, I refuse to read "teen mags", and I'm pretty happy with myself. I don't need to be superskinny, or wear revealing clothing, or paint my face to feel like I'm worth someone's effort. And I think this outlook is partially due to my mom being the awesome person she is.

[redqueen]

56. Good for you!

And tell your mom she rocks. :)

[tishaLA]

36. "Third wave...bullshit"?

Some of us third wavers might object to bullshit label and the way you have mischaracterized post-second wave feminism in your post, since it doesn't sound like any kind of feminism I have ever known.

[Cats Against Frist]

55. Third wave feminism is watered down feminism

This debate rages. I don't mean to get into it here. I was partially joking -- in the above post, but, truly, third-wave feminism is much more bottom-basement and way less hardcore than earlier "forms."

Choose to participate in the "norm" and what do you get? The norm.

Third wave feminism doesn't help the narrative -- it may have some practical purposes like helping women rationalize participation in bondage, may boost the sales at the Estee Lauder counter, etc., but the main redeeming values of 3rd wave were all present in earlier feminism. The rest is saying -- it's OK to pine your whole life away to plan for your wedding above all else. It's OK to watch Friends and want to be Jennifer Aniston.

Third wave feminism is a practical solution to come in and pick up "the girls" that second wave couldn't/wouldn't have converted. It's a cave in to the dominant narrative -- though, with, again, some practical succeess.

And it's had such successes -- it HAS helped with re-productive rights, etc., and it has made more VOCAL (though I don't know how exactly far this has gotten when the "white standard of beauty" is still on top) the issues of minorities and gays, which is, of course, to be applauded.

But really, the only thing that needed to separate second and third was the fact that the "thirds" want to continue down the shame spiral of low self-esteem, petty pastimes and being objectified because it makes them "feel good."

That's great -- that's fine. This is just my opinion. You don't have to agree.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

96. I don't agree with all aspects of third wave but I think they have done

with feminism what some AA's have done with the N word...tried to take the cultural STING out of certain terms such as BITCH....in that regard..I don't necessarily disagree with them... a great PART of self esteem is taking the charge away from words that can destroy it.

[oldcoot]

28. They are protecting their status

The women who support sexism do so because they like to believe that they are "special." The professional woman who uses the term "feminazi" probably believes that she and she alone is responsible for her success. She may think that it cheapens her success to acknowledge those who made enormous sacrifices to provide her with the same opportunities as her male counterparts. If she is one of the few women in her occupation, she may start believing that she is special or better than other women. She may even enjoy being praised by her male counterparts for being "exceptional." The success of other women in her field threatens her status as the exceptional woman.

[Ripley]

37. I've experienced that type.

At one corporate place I worked it was weird that all the female managers I dealt with seemed hardest on females trying to move up. They passed them over at promotion time, sometimes for men who were obviously less qualified for the job.

Not that women should always boost up females, just because they want to help people "like them" because that would be doing exactly what men have always done...promoted people just like them "white, Christian, golf-playing, Republican men"...Good Old Boys Club.

But it is eerie watching these women bend over backwards to "please" the men in management how "unbiased" they are. Just like the stupid media tries so hard to prove they "aren't" liberal.

Weakness from years of abuse I guess.

[slinkerwink]

50. exactly

[genius]

53. I think most women are sexist (anti-woman)

I've seen a lot of liberal women who prefer having a man in charge of meetings or events or who seem to feel men are better qualified than women to lead.

Women are tougher on other women than men are on men.

[slinkerwink]

54. exactly, and women do have a hand in perpetuating sexism

[Misinformed01]

65. Very much so

There are women who use enabling language to justify this crap: "I am not insecure" comes to mind.

Stephanie

[redqueen]

74. Do you think it has anything to do with the

tendency to want to be 'in with the in crowd'? I know human nature is to want to belong to the group, and there can be no doubt whatsoever what the group's (society's) views are on this issue.

Just curious as to your thoughts of why this is so widespread.

[noiretextatique]

131. you mean "conformity"

:hi: yes, that does have a lot to do with it.

[redqueen]

145. Oh, heck

lol... thanks. :hi:

[noiretextatique]

167. LMAO...

on a serious note...i think you hit the nail on the head. conformity is a big problem in this culture.

[Ithuilwen]

63. As far as leading goes

I have yet to successfully run against a male in a student government election and win. (As a disclaimer, I'm a far cry from attaining the label of "popular".) I've run for office four times, won twice, lost twice, and only won against females. Why? I'm not sure. Because in one instance, teachers were very impressed by my performance and not by the one by the boy who ended up winning. :shrug:

[Cheswick2.0]

217. it's high school

Life after high school is very different if you want it to be. There will always be those groups and organizations which will not appreciate you. However, you can find where you do fit and where you are appreciated.
After HS the captain of the football team and the head cheerleader can often be found leading lives of quiet desparation. Never again will they find themselves the center of attention in the same way they were.

[Ithuilwen]

222. Thank goodness. nt

[Nikia]

102. At work the women complained about a women's promotion

The company that I work for has been sexist in its hiring practices in the past. Being a woman used to be synonymous with having the lowest paid labor jobs at the company. A couple years ago, there was a woman promoted to a machine operator's job. She hadn't worked for the company very long but had machine operation experience at a previous job. Most of the low level labor women complained. They said that if a woman was going to be promoted that it should be someone who had been there a long time. They didn't have any problem with the other person who got a machine operator's position who hadn't been with the company very long because he was male. I won't even go into what they said about me since I don't really know everything that went on behind my back.
I think that perhaps there is a type of low status solidarity amongst some women. Women that break out of that role are seen as betraying the group. It is also present amongst some minority groups and lower class Americans in general.

[Misunderestimator]

170. Just a bit of a generalization...

I manage a lot of people, and I am just as equally tough on men as women. I definitely DO NOT prefer to have a man in charge of a meeting, and do not in ANY way feel that a man, by virtue of the fact that he is a man, is better qualified than I.

And... by the way, men are much more tough to manage than women... from my experience at least.

[Ithuilwen]

57. Funny thing is

as a freshman two years ago, I took an honors civics class from a unapologetically conservative and vocal teacher. Ugh. Fun for one such as I to debate, but in all honesty, most of the kids in my class had absolutely no opinions on any sort of political issue and allowed themselves to be brainwashed.

Anyway, this same teacher would use terms like "feminazi" and say other things that would be offensive to females so he could "get a rise" out of the girls in the class. He loved stirring the pot. The funny thing is, my particular class of females wouldn't really react at all to these sexist comments (not, to be fair, that they were said with any real maliciousness). My teacher was somewhat disappointed that he didn't get much of a reaction most of the time, and expressed that in years past, the girls in his class would practically jump out of their seats in indignation.

What's the change?

Figure that out.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[indigobusiness]

83. Didn't say that...never thought it.

I have done more than my share for equal rights in this country.
But, I'm willing to dissect an issue, dispassionately. Are you?

My post was hardly sexist.

[redqueen]

86. Maybe some specifics might help elucidate your point. n/t

[Cats Against Frist]

89. Why don't you explain

your argument? You're floating a logical fallacy -- before you even get started -- by immediately accusing your "opposition" if being overly passionate -- (and how relevant to our conversation -- that "womens' hysteria," again, right? :puke:)

So, what IS your argument?

[Cheswick2.0]

221. it's our damn wandering Uterus problem

If we could just get control of our female reproductive organs our brains would follow.

[Pithlet]

176. You used the term feminazi

and claim nothing in your post was sexist? That was mighty dispassionate of you.

[Mandate My Ass]

85. It's all over this place unfortunately

and it's whiff of desperation is more along the lines of a fetid stench.

[indigobusiness]

161. Not at all...fairness and freedom

is what it's all about.

Especially freedom from oppression. And freedom do be and do whatever you choose...regardless of who it lines up with.

Not the vain sort of considerations rampantly espoused here.

[supernova]

78. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

What a load of crap. You just illustrated what the original poster was talking about.

[prolesunited]

79. Excuse me?!?!?

"feminist agenda betrayed itself, long ago, and America is the worst for it."

Would you care to elaborate on this comment? Exactly what as the "agenda" and how did we make America "worse"?

[Ripley]

84. I think yall are misunderstanding...

I took the post to mean women in the 80's and 90's dropped saying they were feminists and let the repuke agenda take over and make women afraid to admit they are feminists.

And we are worse off because of that.

But I could be wrong.

[indigobusiness]

97. Thanks Ripley, but that wasn't it.

I was refering to the hypocrisy of the radical feminist agenda, exemplified in their use of tactics and methods they complained about. And how it betrayed a noble cause and had a bad influence on the women of America.

Bullying is ugly when it is done by anybody.

If you think a chip on the shoulder attitude empowers women, that's your opinion, but it is clear to me it just further disempowers them and harms our culture.

If you don't believe me, go to other countries where women know how to weild their natural power. They are awesome and beautiful to behold.

[Cats Against Frist]

99. Oh My God

You're not going to trot out an "Asian Beauty" argument, are you? Because I don't think I can handle this today. :)

[indigobusiness]

116. No, I wasn't, I was thinking of inner beauty and real character

and a deep understanding of who they are and what they are about.
I suppose example of what I was thinking about can be found in Asia, but I was thinking of other continents.

[Cats Against Frist]

127. What's your definition of "inner beauty" though --

the more "pacified" and less "radical" female? I don't understand this. It's not that I'm arguing with you, but I'm having a hard time trying to understand what you're getting at -- what your model for "good feminists" is.

It seems that your perceptions are still encoded with this fallacy of attacking hysteria, passion, anger -- etc.

Is inner beauty being "at peace" with objectification, pay disparity, and the general construct that the man should rule the home (which is alive and well in the GOP?)

I agree with you that bullying isn't pretty -- but passion and zeal, are not always bullying.

It seems to me that you're one of those people who are OK with feminism "to a point," -- the point where your own preferences are secondary to someone's empowerment. You seem like a smart person -- is this what your veiled comments mean to say, all along?

[Cheswick2.0]

227. good knows no women in America have a deep understanding of who they

are and what they are about. :eyes:

Do they have geisha on other continents?

[rene moon]

138. what is the "Asian Beauty" argument?

I'm not sure what you mean.

[Cats Against Frist]

148. Deep breath. OK, here I go.

There is a well-known sect of white males (and some black males) who are Asiaphilies, hence, the prevalence of Asian porn, as well as a booming Western-serviced sex industry in Thailand and other countries.

Certain people will unabashedly admit that they find Asian women attractive as the "anti-feminist" women -- hairless, thin, delicate, etc. -- which does a disservice to both American women, as well as Asian women.

I lived in Seattle for several years, second only to Vancouver (and maybe Frisco) in recently-arrived-on-the-coast immigrant Asian females, and upper class white Males.

Before I saw this phenomenon, I would have thought people who said this were full of shit. But in my own circle of friends there were two, and one particularly egregious, sexist, shitty ass white male, who had a gorgeous Asian girlfriend who could not speak English -- who, by the way, he had left his wife for.

I did research on it, and there is a plethora of web dandying out there for anyone who wants to study Asiaphilia.

This is not to say that all men attracted to Asian women (particularly Asian-Americans) are like this. There are those, however, that seek out Asian women, and other desperate foreign classes of poor women, because they stand in contrast to the, ahem, "fat, hairy, American feminists." You know -- the one who divorced your dumb drunk ass, and took the kids away from you because you can't cook Kraft dinner or do your laundry, and the one you have to pay alimony to, so you can't take O to the Louis Vuitton three times this week.

It sounds horrible. It is horrible.

[rene moon]

150. Okay, that's what I thought it meant

Why are so many men like that? I know several. And because of this attitude, I am extremely insecure when it comes to Asian women. If you had my experiences, you would understand.

[supernova]

151. Control has a lot to do with it

There are some men who deeply dislike not being in control of a situation, especially a romantic relationship.

The degree to which he can control his parter (or has the perception he does), the more she is attractive to him.

Sick, but there it is.

[smirkymonkey]

243. I don't consider men like that

- the men who need to be in control all the time - to be men, really.

They are scared, powerless little boys who need a woman to control to puff up thier pathetic little egos. I wouldn't touch a guy like that with a ten-foot pole anyway.

[Cheswick2.0]

230. Hey Cats!

Welcome to DU. Sure is good to have you here.

[Ripley]

105. Oh. Okay.

I will agree that some extreme radical feminists do more harm than good to the case of equality for all women. However, I think there are very few feminists like that. Most feminists are pretty mainstream and don't advocate that crap O'Reilly and them use....they want us all to join a Coven and kill our husbands, abort the babies and become Lesbians!

However, Pat Robertson, et al use the one or 2 extremists to paint all feminists as that way.

IMO, young women have no excuse to be ignorant about what feminism is, was and has done for them. If they can't pick up a damn book and read it for themselves, I have no pity on their disappointment in the business world.

[indigobusiness]

124. Of course...many wrongs needed righting...

And who can support any kind of oppression or unfair indignity, but the overall impact feminism has had on our culture has not been all good.

[Ripley]

126. I guess I totally misunderstood you...

but the overall impact feminism has had on our culture has not been all good.

So exactly which societal ills do you blame feminists or women for?

How do you feel about the overall impact on our culture from civil rights?

The only impact that is bad out of feminism is the continued backlash against it.

[indigobusiness]

135. When I go to other countries that have no gender warfare...

that, in fact celebrate the respective genders and honor them in countless ways, I notice an absence of the hostility that the competition here has fostered...and a really beautiful acceptance of the good and not so good of it all. The effort to be natural and not political about it strikes me as wise.

I've stood up for blacks, gays, and womens rights...but I try to look at the issues squarely, and without political shading.

[prolesunited]

142. Can you please NAME some countries

that we should emulate?

All I'm seeing here is that you admire when women know their "place," but men honor them, not any model of equality.

[indigobusiness]

153. Whoa...Didn't say any of that... Read and consider...don't read into.

that's unfair.

My point was the wisdom of other cultures in recognizing the natural relationship of the sexes and the honoring the genders (not just by men). Our struggle has grown petty and silly.

The point is to overcome the problems not destroy ourselves in the process.

We shouldn't emulate anyone, but not be blind to the successful example of others.

The struggle has gone off the rails. We have become mired in kneejerk responses and reactionary rhetoric.

[supernova]

157. And those cultures would be?

My point was the wisdom of other cultures in recognizing the natural relationship of the sexes and the honoring the genders (not just by men).

I'm all ears... er.... eyes. Who are these societal paragons we should be emulating?

The French?
The Masai?
The Polynesians?
The Japanese?

[indigobusiness]

156. Who said anything about women who know their place?

Is English your first language?

Believe what you wish, you've got me all wrong, and miss my point entirely.

[Cheswick2.0]

236. the problem is that you are mealy mouthing all around the "point"

you don't seem to have the guts to say what you really mean.

[redqueen]

143. What countries?

You seem to be blaming the feminist movement for gender warfare.

Perhaps these countries already have equal rights, which negates the need for warfare.

If they don't have equal rights, perhaps the lack of warfare is part of the reason why.

[Cheswick2.0]

233. come on already, get specific

what acceptance are you talking about?

[Cheswick2.0]

231. yes it has been all good....... name a single bad thing that has happened

because of feminism.

All feminist have played their part. No movement can "move" without it's radicals and I love every last one of them...even the husband killing dancing naked in the woods feminsts.

[noiretextatique]

123. who are the members of this radical feminist agenda?

individuals and organizations. thanks.

[supernova]

152. Still unanswered I see

surprise, surprise.

You go, noiretblu!

[noiretextatique]

166. thanks, supernova

:shrug: maybe it's just me, but i like some facts with accusations

[prolesunited]

128. I'm still not understanding you

The original poster was talking about feminism NOT radical feminism, just like conservatives and neo-cons are not the same.

Can you provide examples of what you would view as feminism and as "radical" feminism"? What other countries should we look to for examples of women who are awesome and beautiful in wielding their power.

I will agree that bullying and bad attitudes don't help anyone, whether it is done by a woman OR a man. However, when women assert themselves, it is often viewed as threatening or over-reaching by the men who feel we are threatening the status quo.

[Cheswick2.0]

224. what a sexist load of shit

Are you affraid that we might cut off your supply of stupid and pliant female victims?
"where women know how to weild their NATURAL POWER....."

yes, because there is nothing NATURAL about women who are not willing to play games.

[napi21]

90. Somehow the word feminist got a very bad rap.

I was new in the workplace when this whole thing started. Like a lot of other movements, some of the real leaders pushed VERY HARD for thier agenda. They had to do that to get anywhere at the time, but when things settled down into a bit more rational thought, the radicals were considered the FEMINISTS.

Some of the stuff was kinda dumb. Like, don't open the door for me, I can do it myself. Or I'll pay for my own dinner, I don't need you.

Believe me, I was in the middle of this, and I had the opinion at the time, that I had to be like the men to be accepted. I learned to swear just like them, so they would feel comfortable with me in a meeting. I reached the point where all the bosses said, don't worry about what you say around XXXXXXXX, she's one of the guys. I loved it, and to this day, I do believe it was the beginning of my success.

[dryan]

112. This is a very important issue

and one that bears a lot of serious thought. It amazes me how many people (women) think that the ERA has passed. When Orlando/BPW had a "Unhappy Hour" to earmark Pay Equity I was shocked at some of the comments attendees made. Sometimes I feel we are regressing on this issue. Last night I was watching reruns of "The Apprentice" (hey there was nothing good on) and the way the women dressed versus the men was an example of what I'm talking about. There is nothing wrong with having a great figure but to have it on 'display' all the time. The men were all in business suits the women in various degrees of well-less than business attire. It seems to me that younger women take for granted to strives that their foremothers fought for. I am old enough to remember when my mother could not open a bank account at the First Bank of Orlando (this is in 1962 folks) without my uncle coming into the bank and signing the application to vouch for her.

[dryan]

113. This is a very important issue

and one that bears a lot of serious thought. It amazes me how many people (women) think that the ERA has passed. When Orlando/BPW had a "Unhappy Hour" to earmark Pay Equity I was shocked at some of the comments attendees made. Sometimes I feel we are regressing on this issue. Last night I was watching reruns of "The Apprentice" (hey there was nothing good on) and the way the women dressed versus the men was an example of what I'm talking about. There is nothing wrong with having a great figure but to have it on 'display' all the time. The men were all in business suits the women in various degrees of well-less than business attire. It seems to me that younger women take for granted to strives that their foremothers fought for. I am old enough to remember when my mother could not open a bank account at the First Bank of Orlando (this is in 1962 folks) without my uncle coming into the bank and signing the application to vouch for her.

[Cats Against Frist]

119. Speaking of the reality TV shows

I think they are doing serious damage to feminism -- well, society in general, too. You have to ask yourself what is the purpose of an "All-Female" Fear Factor. That was the last time I've ever put my television on NBC. There was also a show called "Dog Eat Dog," where this chick (in a bikini) had one foot each on two separate panes of glass. They asked her simple questions like "Who is on the dollar bill?" -- when she couldn't answer them (it was really sad) -- each time she missed one, the panels spread and her legs spread farther and farther apart.

IS THAT NOT FUCKED UP?

[Lars39]

115. Recently started reading Betty Friedan's book,"It Changed My Life".

She feels that the movement was highjacked, and puts a lot of the blame on Gloria Steinem. She calls the highjackers pseudo-radicals. I'm only about half-way thru the book, but it is a very interesting perspective so far.

[Pithlet]

173. This would be an example

of what I was talking about upthread. "Feminazi rhetoric"?

How noble of you to profess that us feminazis are pursuing a noble cause. How liberal of you. By the way, when did we betray ourselves. When we got the vote? When we gained more control of our bodies and reproductive systems? When we worked to make the workplace less hostile?

[Kanary]

98. It's usually "I'm not a feminist, *but*........"

And one doesn't have to look any further than DU to find examples of sexism, which we're all supposed to like.

Kanary

[carolinayellowdog]

100. Religion has a lot to do with it

Back in the 70s, I recall at some point survey results showing the ERA with higher approval from men than women. That is mind-boggling on the face of it. The only thing that makes sense of it is the much higher proportion of churchgoers who are women, and the drumbeat of sexism from the pulpits of many denominations.

[supernova]

147. Lots of stupid shit has been

started in the name of religion: wars, crusades, and sexism.

Who decided God was male anyway?

[rumguy]

103. I remember once I started a thread titled "Am I a feminst?"

God damn that was a funny thread....

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rumguy]

121. I'm debating the issue

That thread was hilarious cuz it showed how absurd labels can become...

It was fascinating to watch people answer the question. There were a wide range of respones...

Some said men couldn't be feminsts. Some said men could be feminists.

Some cursed me, and got posts deleted.

[indigobusiness]

125. Damn you and your attempt at humor here...

Don't you know your place?

[Logansquare]

172. BTW: what countries have no gender warfare?

We are very interested in hearing about it.

[Pithlet]

177. because everyone knows

that gender equality is hilarious, funny stuff! Oh, and noble too. Mustn't forget that. If I use words like "noble", then I can mock the whole movement and still look liberal and stuff.

[indigobusiness]

184. Nobody is making any insincere or fallacious claims

from this chair.

And I was marching in the street against fascism before you crapped your first diaper.

[Pithlet]

189. Good for you

It doesn't change anything you said in this thread. You used a disgusting term that clearly shows your views on this topic. Your condescending attitude towards others in this thread regarding sexism speaks volumes.

[prolesunited]

202. Wow, if this thread is any indication of how you

treat women who "threaten" and challenge you, no wonder you have a problem with feminism.

Repeatedly, we have asked questions trying to understand your point of view, asked for specifics and examples so we could understand your position and you just hemmed and hawed without providing any real answers.

Then, you give such snide replies such as this and "speak English much." You talked upthread about bullying being ugly. Well, perhaps your comments might might warrant some introspection on what exactly constitutes bullying behavior. I didn't see it coming from anyone but you.

[indigobusiness]

215. I responded in kind

to make a point. You just drove it home for me.

Repeatedly I tried to explain to the reactionary responses what I was trying to point out. The claws came out for no reason. Just automatic, I guess. No such thing as critical analysis or the full examination of sacred cows around here. I wasn't offering answers, that would be pretentious. My point was an observation in hope of asking better questions. When the question is well enough asked the answer is obvious.

PC is as lame in feminist argument as it is anywhere.

The fully realized human is the goal, gender is incidental.

[Pithlet]

218. Bull

You really can't figure out why the claws came out when you used sexist terms in your argument? I honestly don't believe you're really that dense.

[indigobusiness]

235. I used the terms in reference to the discussion,

I never supported anything oppressive.

Are you really as petty as you sound?

[Cheswick2.0]

241. so...what countries don't have gender warfare?

?

[Cheswick2.0]

239. so basicall you intention was flame bait

Why am I not surprised?

[Love Bug]

107. I don't get it, either

I think part of the reason for this is because most of these women are young enough to have never have had to face being told they couldn't do something simply because they were female.

I'm going to be 50 next month (!) and it boggles my mind sometimes when I think about how much has changed for women (well, and NOT changed) in my lifetime. When I started grade school my options were 1. Wife/mother, 2. Teacher, 3. Nurse, and that was about it unless you were a real maverick. Bless those women (and the men who stood with them) who stood up to the establishment men in the 60s and 70s--without their struggle, lawsuits, publicity stunts and lobbying for legislation we women wouldn't be where we are today. God also bless those elected officials (mainly Democrats, of course) who worked with them to pass legislation such as Title IX.

IMO, the women who reject feminism and vote against their own interests are either lazy, ignorant, or have been brainwashed into thinking "Gawd" wants them to remain dependent upon men. Fat lot of good that attitude does the ones without a man to take care of them (like most senior women), but there you go.

[Mike Niendorff]

140. just look at it in terms of class and class-dominance.

The primary mechanism by which any ruling class maintains control is by dividing those they rule against each other.

So they try to divide the men against the women.
They try to divide the women against the men.
They try to divide the whites against the blacks against the latinos against the ... etc ...
They try to divide the young against the old.
And the old against the young.
Middle-class against poor.
Poor against middle-class.
Rural against Urban.
Urband against rural.

On and on and on.

Anywhere there is a perceived "difference" to be exploited, it will be, in order to mantain the dominance of the ruling class by keeping its opposition muddled in infighting and recrimination.

The primary motivations are financial (ruling-class profits) and social (systemic preservation).

On a broad scale, some who wish to advance within this system learn to play along by hitching themselves to the (deliberately divisive) terms that the ruling class is promoting. Others advance themselves by opposing those terms. Neither group ends up threatening the control of the ruling class, because this sort of social conflict is exactly what the ruling class wants.

Careers have been made defining, attacking and defending this or that thesis as to why one group adopts a self-deprecating outlook, or what a counter-outlook should be, etc, etc, etc. And that's exactly how the ruling elites want it. Keep squabbling. Keep fighting each other. Keep arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, for all they care. Just don't focus on our common interests, our common humanity, and our common status relative to our common masters.


MDN

[markses]

154. Men killed and raped women systematically for thousands of years

It's pretty simple, really. Men still do kill and rape women, by the way, thousands of times every day.

[indigobusiness]

171. And women poison men

and bury them in the garden, every day.

But the problem is that women want to be allowed to be women, warts and all...without allowing men to be men, warts and all.

[Logansquare]

174. Really? where does this happen every day?

Not in the countries where there is no gender warfare, no doubt.

[indigobusiness]

181. just

google it.

And there are many countries without our kind of gender warfare, don't kid your snide self.

[supernova]

185. And those countries are?

:shrug:

Excuse me, I have to to refill the secret compartment in my decoder ring with arsnic. I never miss a chance to poison a man, you know.

[indigobusiness]

188. Once again, you miss the point entirely.

And once you realize that the scales do balance, you won't need your decoder ring.

[supernova]

194. No, you're running away from the point

you keep saying there's a culture out there, somewhere where relationships between men and women are better. But you fail to say where this is in your opinion.

Without stating which cultures you would elevate, you are forfeiting your argument.

[Pithlet]

199. I'm curious

about which countries he's talking about as well. I'd love to hear this.

[indigobusiness]

210. I won't define culture for you

look it up.

Not running from anything, just won't run around in circles to chase your nonsense.

The impact of the feminist agenda on American culture is easily seen and examined. To pretend that the influence has been all good is simplistic and telling.

[supernova]

211. Yet more squirming

I see. You're as slippery with your arguments as an eel in the hand for dinner. I love sushi, you see.

I know how to define culture. I'm not certain that you do; or that you could illustrate what you are talking about. You talk in lofty and improbable abstracts.

Face it, you have no point.

[indigobusiness]

226. I can't believe you are really that dense...

but, in the event that you actually are, I'll spell it out for you.

Many times, in the evolution of causes, a noble effort takes on the qualities of that which it opposes. See Nietzche...here:

He who fights against monsters should see to it that he does not become a monster in the process. And when you stare persistently into an abyss, the abyss also stares into you.
---Friedrich Nietzsche---

The struggle for women's rights is no exception. The impact on the the culture, both good and bad, is manifold (pardon the expression).
It is obvious to the open mind, but I won't quote you chapter and verse...do your own homework if it is necessary. It is not my intention to bicker or split hairs.

[supernova]

238. Yes, I'm quite familiar with Nietzsche's abyss

and becoming the thing you hate. You're missing the point about me though. Nothing I have said in this thread, comes from a place of hate.

But you still haven't said what cultures you consider superior to ours in the West in terms of male/female relations. Are you changing that assertion? It appears so.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and give you a few more cultures to choose from:

- The UK
- The Scandinavians
- The South Africans
- The Inuit
- The Lakota
- The Tahitians

Do you see where I'm going with this? There isn't a culture on this planet that doesn't have gender bickering. It's the nature of the beast, so to speak.

Look change is always bittersweet. Change is the way of the world. You couldn't stop it if you tried.

The fact remains, in the whole, we western women have gained far more than we lost. We gained self-respect, our out purpose in life, the simple ability to also enjoy the self-satisfaction and confidence that comes with doing something worthwhile in life, of our own choosing. Self-determination is the basic human right of everyone on the planet. Because we determin our futures, we make far better mothers, lovers, sisters, daughters, and friends. I know I would be less of a person if I were confined to a simple one-dimentional role. I need all the activities and roles I engage in to be a complete person.

[noiretextatique]

216. you have yet to define this radical agenda, or discuss the "harm"

it has done. please do so...i am very interested in the details.

[Pithlet]

220. It's easily seen, is it?

Then it should be no problem for you to point it out. You are the one making that claim. Making it, and then saying "look it up yourself" is a lame cop out. It shows that you have nothing to back up what you have to say.

[indigobusiness]

229. I can't force you to see it

or anything else.

That is your choice.

[Pithlet]

234. If it's easily seen

isn't it worth the attempt? After all, you've put forth the effort to make the contention. Sorry. I still call "cop out". You don't have a point.

[markses]

191. I'll leave you to your woman issues

with that bizarre response, I couldn't do otherwise.

[indigobusiness]

200. So they are my

woman issues now, are they?

Why was my response bizarre? It is historically the choice of women who do in men, usually their spouses.

The point was, both sides have their ways and means.

[Cheswick2.0]

245. ummmm, nope, not so very often

women generally poison men and bury them in the garden when they have been beaten for years. It doesn't happen often. There are probably 1000 rapes of women for every 1 poisoning of men.

BTW... what country is it again where there is no gender warfare? And what exactly do those natural roles that they are all so accepting of entail?

[LoZoccolo]

169. Women sense my power, and they seek the life essence.

I do not avoid women, Mandrake...but I do deny them my essence.

[indigobusiness]

179. That is the crux of the biscuit...

http://sludgereport.blogspot.com/

[wildeyed]

187. I think it is true that the word "feminist"

has come to have negative associations for a lot of people. Just like "liberal" has come to be a dirty word. People are too lazy to think about what these word actually mean, and just go with their knee-jerk reaction.

I think, also, that women dis feminists in order to be more popular with the men in control. Kind of like that Patty Hearst syndrome where the kidnapping victim identifies totally with the captor and becomes 'brainwashed' into adopting their agenda.

[Pithlet]

197. Yep

All you have to do is bring up the feminist movement in a thread at DU, and the condescending and sometimes outright sexist posts start predictably. It is impossible to have a discussion about feminism here at DU. It's impossible to discuss how unequal things still are without the accusations flying. And it saddens and disgusts me, because if that is the way it is here, a progressive website, then we'll never see true equality in my lifetime.

[slinkerwink]

212. and it'll take hundreds of years for sexism to be really combatted

how sad that we have to face this on a "progressive" messageboard.

[Tosca]

237. Well, after all...

Pornography IS a 15 billion dollar industry in this country. Yes, billion. Who'd a thunk it, us being such a religious country and all.

[Unperson 309]

242. MANY Societies Have Something Similar!

Not only politically, but socially. To wit: Africa - It is wimen who permit, perpetuate and perform female genital mutilation (Pharaonic Circumcision) on daughters and granddaughters. Some tribes have women who coil huge collars made of metal around their necks to stretch and deform them and make the women less able to work and function. In china, footbinding was the custom, and women did it to their daughters and granddaughters. In the Islamic countries, burqas, veils, curfews, etc, are mostly enforced by women against women!

In nearly ALL societies, it is the women who wear the restrictive fashions! Purdah veils, burqas, girdles, high heels, footbinding, hobble skirts, etc. The most restrictive practises - menstrual taboos and seclusion, sequestration, even dietary proscriptions (in some places, women are not allowed to eat bananas!). Only in the area of laws do men begin to approach the woman-on-woman oppression. Men have instituted curfews, harems, laws preventing women from voting, driving, having abortions, speaking to other men, owning property.

The next time you hear some right wing woman yowling about "feminazis", think of the African grandmother holding her wailing granddaughter down by force while the girl's mother slices away her labia with a piece of broken glass. Women are capable of HORRIBLE cruelty against their own!

309

[Moderator]

246. Locking......

This is flamebait.



DU Moderator