Sorry, but I can't bring myself to cheer about Ken Lay's perp walk

[LawDem]

Don’t get me wrong. The Enron debacle ranks up there among the crimes of the century (this
one and the last). But I just can’t bring myself to take lot of pleasure out of seeing Ken Lay do the
perp walk. This whole tradition of forcing prominent criminal defendants to stroll handcuffed in
front of the cameras strikes me as wrong. Any defendant -- even Ken Lay -- is presumed
innocent until convicted in a court of law. In my opinion, the venerable perp walk denigrates this
constitutional presumption.

Why not put first things first. First convict the bum. There will be plenty of opportunity for
photo-ops once that’s done.

[bemildred]

1. That's OK, I can. nt

[Not Me]

2. It's not just the presumption of innocence, but the fact that he is hardly

a flight or violence risk.

I won't take any satisfaction from his little perp walk today; I will if he is convicted.

[Hornito]

3. CHEER! CHEER! CHEER! CHEER!

You can't cheer the arrest of a criminal who helped bilk millions, in several countries, out of billions of dollars, who has given Bush and the Repuglians hundreds of thousands (and more), and is in general a completely greedy, venal, contemptible human being?

Well fine ...Then I'll CHEER!!!!

All my time at DU, and thousands of posts about Enron, and what those bastards did, your post was a first, ....and hopefully, a last.

[LawDem]

8. Just a thought

Just as an intellectual exercise, you might try responding to the actual point of the post. Just a thought.

[StandUpGuy]

20. No cheer here.

Ken Lay is a manifestation of western complicity. It took almost 3 years to even arrest him and will probably take another 3 to convict him. There is absolutely nothing to cheer about. Corporate corruption and greed have been a staple in the western diet for decades if not centuries. This is no time to cheer it's a time for personal reflection and perhaps shame.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. I Don't Understand

I realize in most crimes the cops will arrest you wherever they find you but in some crimes;especially after a long investigation you can turn yourself in...

[markses]

10. That's not what a perp walk generally involves

In most cases, as in this one, transportation from one location to another can be done without exposing the defendant or suspect to any publicity whatsoever. It is, in many cases, even easier to do the transport without going through the motions of a public display. But the police and the media are in a kind of crafty partnership, and most perp walks are carefully orchestrated by these partners (the police let their friends in the media know what time the perp walk will take place, the route, etc.). The media gets their 11 o'clock videotape, the police get an initial public perception of guilt. And the suspect - at this point presumed innocent of the charges - gets a destroyed reputation. It's a bum deal for citizens. Except, of course, those who take pleasure in the whole prejudicial and unnecessary operation.

This has been the subject of recent controversial court proceedings:

http://www.gannett.com/go/newswatch/2003/october/nw1010-4.htm

For a review of the issue:

http://www.justicejournalism.org/crimeguide/chapter01/sidebars/chap01_xside5.html

[markses]

5. I agree

Perp walks are prejudicial (literally, pre-judicial) and completely unnecessary for the judicial process. Trials and proceedings should, of course, be open, but perp walks are more about the state conspiring with media instruments to produce a public judgment that precedes and circumvents the judicial process. I am with you 100%. And for every Lay perp walk, there are hundreds of people who have their reputations destroyed through carefully orchestrated perp walk antics, a jury of the police and the media, thoroughly outside the proper purview of the law.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

6. I've got a quote from Cheney to direct toward Ken Lay...

...can you guess what that might be?

[Goldmund]

7. I absolutely agree.

[scarletwoman]

9. Mixed feelings...

He'll have his day in court -- long overdue, imho -- but I don't see why he should be given any more consideration than any so-called "common criminal" filmed in handcuffs being shoved into the backseat of a police car. If it's good enough for the masses, it's good enough for Ken Lay.

Just because he's "white collar" should NOT mean he merits any special treatment. I'd be okay if NO ONE was shown in this sort of humiliating circumstance, but as long as it can happen to ANY defendent, then let there be no exceptions for the rich and famous.

sw

[markses]

11. I think the original poster's point is that perp walks are inappropriate

even for the so-called "common criminal" (who, at the perp walk stage can be justly called the common defendant).

[sendero]

12. I agree with your principle...

... but disagree in this instance.

Ken Lay has as much chance of doing hard time as I do of waking up with a full head of hair tomorrow.

He will spend millions of his ill-gotten gains on lawyers who will buy him out of this. He's got layers of plausible deniability built up around his role, I guarantee you he knew Enron would eventually fail and he took measures to hide his involvement.

Even if Justice and the FBI did their homework and really have him nailed, Bush* will pardon him (am I the only one who'd like to see power of unjustified pardons from the executive ended?)

So, I'm going to allow myself the unseemly pleasure of taking some measure of vindictive righteousness in his perp walk. It's not much, but it's probably just about all we will get.

[truebrit71]

13. It's a diversion...It is stealing thunder from Kerry/Edwards announcement

..it is a ploy to make the sheeple think that the BFEE is actually doing something about corporate crime....except that the sheeple seem to slowly becoming aware that * is full of shit....

[VolcanoJen]

37. Your point is exactly right, truebrit. SPOT ON!

Sad, that we don't feel the same way for un-defended working-class "innocent until proven guilty" suspects are similarly perp-walked.

A diversion. Spot on.

[Touchdown]

14. I can't bring myself to cheer either...

I'm too busy doubled up on the floor, in a massive stomach cramp/crying/red face giggling fit, and I can't pick myself off the floor!:evilgrin:

[napi21]

15. I can, and DID this morning! First thing I saw when I woke up!

I don't know what your professions is, but I'm an accountant. I know how these devious decisions are made, inside the late night meetings, and everybody assures everybody else that life will be GREAT and we'll never get caught!

I've been waiting for this to happen for 3 years, and it finally did.

My worst fear is that he has managed to find clever enough lawyers to be able to get him off. I only hope I can trust the prosecuter did his due diligence.

The second fear is that this will be the first pardon granted by Shrub as he leaves office.

This man doesn't deserve any sympathy. He gambled and he lost.

[Guaranteed]

16. I'm sorry, but this is justice. To think that this guy didn't know what

was going on is ridiculous. He deserves every bit of shame that gets thrown at him.

Screw Ken Lay. The guy oughta be stripped down and publicly beaten. And I'm not a corporal punishment kind of guy. Just this guy and bullies.

[Pastiche423]

17. I love this photo!

[napi21]

18. Who the hell is he smiling at?

I saw this photo a lot today. I still haven't figured out who he's smiling at! Arrogant SOB!

[LawDem]

19. Be careful guys . . .

When once we start down the path of saying it’s okay to ignore the presumption of innocence in
this case, BECAUSE THIS GUY IS REALLY, REALLY GUILTY, it will eventually take us
places nobody here will like.

[bemildred]

21. No, it won't. We just enjoy the perp walk.

He still gets a trial, and better representation than you
and I ever would.

[LawDem]

22. I don't know . . .

A few of the posts seem to imply that we really don't need a trial in this case. Now, I'll give you that a lot of that may be hyperbole, but give me my little paranoias that some may actually mean what they say.

[sangh0]

23. I agree - You don't know

For one thing, you seem to not know that the presumption of innocence only applies in a courtroom. The rest of us can presume whatever we damn well want to. It's called "Freedom of thought"

Some people have a problem with it.

[LawDem]

25. Maybe I do . . .

The presumption of innocence applies to government action taken against a criminal defendant. Perp walks are government action. The courts may not agree, but then do you endorse all of the interpretations of constitutional law by the current Supreme Court?

By the way, that Freedom of Thought thing you mention has its greatest application to toleration of the thoughts of those with which one disagrees, not, as you use it, with getting pissed off because someone's thoughts are contrary to yours.

[sangh0]

27. Wrong again

Yes, perp walks are governmental actions, but perp walks do not affect the presumption of innocence. Evidence of a perp walk is never entered as evidence in a trial for a simple reason - perp walks are completely irrelevant to the presumption of innocence.

And you're also wrong to say that "Freedom of Thought has its greatest application to toleration of the thoughts of those with which one disagrees". It's greatest application is to THE GOVERNMENT's toleration of thoughts it dislikes.

I've never understood why people get confused enough to think that our FREEDOMS require us to LIMIT our beliefs and/or reactions to ideas. Our freedoms LIMIT the government's ability to act.

[Robbien]

33. Great answer. . .eom

[LawDem]

35. Well if you say so, I guess it must be true, but . . .

As long as we're being technical here, the presumption of innocence (and the broader concept of due process) can and often does apply to events outside the courtroom that may prejudice a defendant's rights to a fair trial inside the courtroom. For example, prejudicial pre-trial publicity may constitute a denial of due process because it precludes a defendant from receiving a trial before a fair and impartial jury. Gee, what do you think? Could parading a defendant in front of the TV sets of just about every possible juror in American be of some relevance to this concept?

And by the way, yes, even aside from this, another thing the presumption of innocence should do is to preclude the government from deliberately humiliating a defendant (who is innocent in the eyes of the law) in this fashion for political reasons.

Now, as to Freedom of Thought. I'm sure you understand that from a legal standpoint there really is no such thing. It's a term used, by judges as well as others, more in the philosophical sense, since obviously there is no way for the government to punish your pure thoughts. It's only when you express those thoughts that concrete First Amendment issues come into play. Of course, when that happens we are talking about constitutional rights specifically mentioned in the constitution such as Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Expression.

And while we're on the topic, suggesting that the philosophical use of the term "Freedom of Thought" applies solely to the context of "state action" is a bit out of step with a lot of great thinkers.

[merh]

41. I just wonder why the perp walk, if not but to change the focus

of the media from Kerry/Edwards to bushco admin doing its job. I agree that presumption of innocence is the legal standard in our society and I believe in it wholeheartedly. But, I also know that most high profiled arrestees are allowed to turn themselves in, thus preventing the perp walk. I think this was staged and he is cooperating with the admin. A pardon is now possible since he has been indicted during the clown in chief's term. If not a pardon, then a plea and forfeitures in the best interest of justice (economic hardship to the gov to prosecute :puke:)are just around the corner. Part of the deal, just part of the plan. (imho)

[VolcanoJen]

39. OK. 'Cuz we only just now started caring about the "innocent until" crap.

Even if he's not guilty as hell, he's representative of unfettered greed and ambition.

Let's say I rob a liquor store to finance my kid's operation. Would you stand up for ME? And my presumptive innocence? Cool, but I still couldn't afford an all-star legal defense team. Where's the outrage when that happens? And, it happens every single day...

We didn't just now start down this path, LawDem. But if you want to continue crying a river for the poor, defenseless perp-walked CEOs of America, feel free.

[proud patriot]

24. I think he should serve his time in San Quentin

[guitar man]

28. I have a better idea than jail

As a punishment for this SOB. Take EVERYTHING he owns down to his underwear, sell it and disperse the money between the employees that lost their retirement funds etc. due to this weasel. Then, take him down to the thrift store and outfit him in a second hand pair of pants and a shirt. Leave him barefoot. Give him a dollar, dump him off downtown and tell him to pull himself up by his goddamned bootstraps. BTW, he can't use ANY of his former contacts to do it. :evilgrin:

[rumguy]

26. excellent point

He's a smart guy. He's a human being. At one time he was even a child.

He got caught up in the greed of corporate America.

It's an all around tragedy.

But I would have been really pissed if they didn't charge him.

[jpak]

29. I can't either

He should have been frog marched in leg irons wearing an orange jump suit and sporting a freshly shaved head.

Now THAT would be something to cheer about.

[OxQQme]

30. whole nation is a courtroom

It seems that the nation is the courtroom, and we're all jurors. Evidence has been presented so far in the proceedings, and there is more to come.
There are many in this country who've had to perp it. Try demonstrating against this admin by 'breaking out' of the free speech corrals a mile away from wherever the pres. shows up in his train of limos. You'll get perpped. Probably after you're gassed.

[newyawker99]

42. Hi OxQQme!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[smirkymonkey]

31. You're right...

it's much too lenient.

I think they should put him in stocks on the public green for about a week, followed by a savage beating administered by former Enron employees.

[unfrigginreal]

32. Bad Boys, Bad Boys, what you gonna do?

When this show goes off the air, I'll consider your point to be valid.

[Shakespeare]

34. I'll stop cheering when...

...white collar criminals stop getting deferential treatment. The Enron collapse--for which Lay is pretty fucking likely guilty--has harmed far, far more people than anything done by a petty thief. Let's see who does longer, harder jail time, though.

I've had it with classism. And I won't stop cheering.

[VolcanoJen]

36. Well, I, for one, was disappointed that he wasn't FROG-MARCHED.

What of the teachers unions, who invested heavily in Enron to watch their retirment funds dwindle before their eyes?

What of the Enron employees who were encouraged to purchase stock, just as Ken Lay was selling off as fast as humanly possible???

Every day, I carry my morning coffee to work in an ENRON-emblazoned coffee mug. I'm a snarky bastard, but it always garners attention.

I felt encouraged today. Very sorry you don't feel the same kind of pain for the folks disenfranchised by Ken Lay. Fish rot from the head DOWN, same for lyin', cheatin' corporations...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

38. The perp walk is an arrest..not a conviction...something every two bit

criminal experiences prior to their day in court...why would you argue special treatment for Lay? It's about fucking time he got arrested so he could be brought to trial.

[VolcanoJen]

44. Amen, NSMA!!!! (n/t)

:dem:

[ScreamingMeemie]

40. This whole tradition of stealing the money out of the hands of one's

employees strikes me as wrong. But Kenny Boy didn't think about that when he took their cash...the cash he encouraged them to invest in his farce. He deserves to be put on display for all those employees and investors who lost everything while he lived off of them. Poor Kenny...my ass. I'm sorry, but I'm cheering over him getting what he deserves...the perp walk for those he betrayed and used.

[Dookus]

43. I can....

if he was a poor black defendant who'd stole one hundredth of one percent of what Lay stole, he'd have to be carried in on a stretcher.