DU has depressed me today

[rene moon]

From the "Institutionalized sexism" thread in GD to the "Edwards daughter is hot" thread in the Lounge, it seems as if sexism is everywhere and I cant get away from it.

As a 30 year old woman, this shit is really starting to piss me off. We will never be more than our looks and the size of our breasts. No matter what we do or say, most men (and the women who enable them)will keep us that way. It's really sad.

I think our society hates women. Why? I don't know, but it does. I don't consider myself a "man-hater" but it's real hard to stay focused on the good guys when everything else around you is wrong.

I am off my rocker or do others feel this way?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. Oh please...

Like I don't hear the same sexism from women. Let's be honest here - both genders have good points and bad points. Okay, mostly bad for both.

[rene moon]

3. ok--but I do have the right to feel this way, correct?

Women are not the best either but this is male dominated society....

[moosedog]

5. Don't be down...

Just drop the bad apples and go out and find good ones. There are plenty of good men and women out there. Life has it's ups and downs. It will be up for you in a little bit.

[Kipepeo]

203. Give me a break

This is a male-dominated society. You can not use the word sexism interchangeably for women objectifying men vs. men objectifying women. I am not excusing either. But for you to compare the two as somehow equal is to belittle sexism against women in a country that is still completely male-dominated in every single field, where men are normalized and women are the "other" everywhere you look.

I agree with the original poster. It sickens me the amount of men on this board who rush in to defend sexist TV shows without ONCE actively engaging in a real discussion about sexism with women. There is nothing more sexist than a MAN telling a WOMAN what she should and shouldn't find sexist towards her as a woman.

I am not going off on you personally. This was just my breaking point post and it happened to be in response to yours.

For the most part I ignore the sexist shit I see on DU because I like the political discussions and besides, I'm used to dealing with it Every Single Day anyway, so why should I expect it to be any different here? I can't turn on my television without feeling assaulted as a woman, and reminded that I'm only valued by how much a straight man likes my tits and ass, so why should I expect it to be any different when I turn on my computer?

[rene moon]

218. Great Post!

Thanks

[NMDemDist2]

249. wow, that stinks

I can't turn on my television without feeling assaulted as a woman, and reminded that I'm only valued by how much a straight man likes my tits and ass, so why should I expect it to be any different when I turn on my computer?



If you let the mainstream media and what others think of you define your world, it must be an uncomfortable place. I learned in the 70's when long straight hair was in (and mine was a curly mop) that letting other's view define me was the way to madness.

I refuse to let people define me and I teach people how to treat me daily, with intelligence and humor and occasionally with an acid tongue.

After 30+ years of fighting for women's rights, I know the world is full of ignorance and bias. It always has been. If someone ever told you life was "fair" they lied. What I don't do is let the ignorance and bias around me define me.

Fight the hate with love, fight the ignorance with truth and fight the attempts to define you by flying free :D

[Kipepeo]

278. I don't let mainstream media define my world.

Which is why I actively try to avoid sexist media, meaning I don't read so-called "women's" magazines, I don't set out to watch sexist programming like "The Man Show."

That being said, I think it's pretty amazing how much of it I see on a daily basis...going out of my way not to consume it as it were.

I do not expect life to be fair. But I wish I lived in a world free from sexism and nothing will stop me from wishing for that and fighting for that for younger generations.

[anarchy1999]

281. Simply Unbelievable. This is DU, right? What the Cheney?

Someone else brought it up earlier, take these mindless chats someplace else.

[Guaranteed]

2. MEN HAVING LIBIDOS IS NOT SEXISM.

And women have them too!

WE ARE SEXUAL CREATURES. Get used to it!

[rene moon]

6. Here it comes

the "get use to it' crowd. Who said anything about libidos? ARGH!

[Guaranteed]

7. There is NOTHING wrong with saying a woman is "hot."

That's the product of having a sex drive. Would you deny men, or women, for that matter, their sexual drive?

[rene moon]

9. Good Grief!

"Would you deny men, or women, for that matter, their sexual drive?"

NO! Never did I talk about sex drive. :wtf:

[Guaranteed]

12. You're saying that you can't stand the fact that men

look at women sexually, right? That's their sex drive. Would you deny them that?

[rene moon]

20. NO

I cant stand the sexism! I know that people look---shit, none of us are dead. But it seems to me if you getting so worked up, then you must be feeling guilty about something.

[Guaranteed]

23. No, I'm getting sick of the male bashing and ball-cutting!

What are YOU getting so worked up about?

[Pithlet]

34. Defensive

and totally missing the point.

[Skittles]

93. yup

it's funny how men suddenly "get it" when they have daughters.

[liberalhistorian]

288. ROFLMAO!!

BINGO! How true, how all too true.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

178. Read further down Pithlet..he isn't being defensive..his balls are

it's all about them don't ya know?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

92. Keep your nuts out of conversations where they have no place

and maybe they won't get so fucking injured...the well being of your gonads is NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY unless we are in the medical profession and you have a medical condition. Otherwise..your nuts are your fucking problem.

[Guaranteed]

121. While the Lounge is supposed to be devoid of sex threads,

it often isn't, because people have sex drives. And saying that someone is sexually attractive just isn't sexist.

[Iris]

130. but being vulgar and demeaning about it is.

[Guaranteed]

147. Vulgarity isn't sexist unless a couple of choice words are used.

And sexual comments only become demeaning when the person says it as if that is all the "target" is worth.

[Iris]

153. Who gets to decide what the "choice words" are?

YOU?

[Guaranteed]

158. This forum has already had that conversation. nt

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

135. Your deliberate obtuseness in the matter leaves me unimpressed

Please peruse this thread and tell me there is only admiration...like posts about lifting her dress up in the back of a limo..etc

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x1372126#1374395

BTW...you completely ignored the crux of my post...do your BALLS belong in a debate or your brain and your words? Are we now responsible for the well being of your balls? You practically PROVE our fucking point with that statement.

[Guaranteed]

152. This is about sexual drive, so yes, my balls are front and center

in the conversation. Apparently some would like to chop them.

I haven't even seen the thread. I'll look.

[Iris]

155. No one is interested in seeing your balls, much less chopping them.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

162. No ..this is about women ..it is NOT about your balls..too funny

you are a verite performance..there is no human being over here...there is only your balls and the manner in which we must all cater to them...thanks for the real time demonstration that your balls trump our fucking humanity....

No small wonder women are still being genitally mutilated in other parts of the world..it's all about men's sex drive..and yet you have posted millions of times about this illegal war which is also predicated on a male drive to dominate and kill....guess we should only cater to YOUR impulses while you would deny other men their God given right to dominate and kill...get it yet?

[Guaranteed]

182. BTW, YOU brought up MY balls.

Not me. And you're the one that keeps talking about them.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

187. Your balls must have a short memory

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1951809#1951941

You brought them up

[Guaranteed]

196. Nope, that wasn't my balls. That was everyone's.

You're the one that brought up MINE in particular, and you keep talking about them.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

199. No you made no such qualification

And I, from now on, PROMISE TO DAMAGE YOURS AS BEST I CAN in every fucking thread where you peddle your supremacist bullshit cloaked as progressivism. So..yes..I now DO have a problem with your balls since they seem to dictate your triangulating logic on this subject.

[Guaranteed]

210. See, I knew you had a problem with my balls.

And you're being awfully defensive.

You and your ball-cutting bullshit. Here I am simply defending the right of everyone to have a sex drive, and you just can't stand it. You can't stand that men are sexually attracted to women. You would change that if you could, wouldn't you?

Must suck to be wrong on this one.

[slinkerwink]

213. nah, the majority of women here say you're in the wrong

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

217. triangulate with yourself ..I'm fatigued

I have no problem with men having a sexual attraction to women..I have a problem with men not realizing when they have crossed the line from attraction to objectification.

Must suck not to have the power if distinction as you have demonstrated over and over again in this thread.

[Guaranteed]

220. No one has crossed the line.

I know the distinction. You're the one that says that every thread mentioning the sexual attractiveness of a woman posted in the Lounge is sexist.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

223. Kindly direct me to where I said such a thing...

you can't..I have never ever said that and in fact in THIS debate with you, I said quite the opposite. Teach those things to read.

[taxidriver]

261. um, the war is based on a male drive to kill?

i havent experienced that drive yet.



women kill and dominate too. in fact, i sort of like it when my g/f is dominating. heh heh.

[sir_captain]

286. Your post does not prove your point very well

I agree with a certain amount of what you have to say, but reducing the ills of the world to testosterone is pretty damn sexist too, if you ask me, and a heck of a lot more self-righteous than the sophomoric male-talk that gets thrown around (sometimes inappropriately) in the lounge.

[Guaranteed]

177. Alright, I read the thread, and saw no sexism.

I did see a couple of rather explicit and inappropriate comments, but nothing sexist.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

183. Goodfucking night..of course you didn't see it

you are a fish in water in the matter of what is sexist....your balls were doing the reading...you've already admitted as much

[Guaranteed]

186. Sounds like you have a real problem with my balls. nt

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

190. Only when I am forced to talk to them..it's worse than talking to prozac

[Guaranteed]

200. Could you please stop talking about my balls, NSMA?

You're being insensitive to them.

[Name removed]

205. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guaranteed]

215. WHOA now...no need for threats...

And your interest in ball-crushing is nothing new.

[Name removed]

219. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

222. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

227. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guaranteed]

238. Well, THAT'S never going to happen...

...unless there are amazing advances in the field of genetics over the next few decades. So I guess there's no way we'll ever meet.

That's a shame. I had the vice out and everything.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

239. thanks for reinforcing the hopelessness...hope you never have a daughter

[Guaranteed]

243. I hope YOU never have a son LOL

You don't OWN a vice...do you?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

244. purchasing one online now...I shall never leave home without it

[Guaranteed]

246. There are a lot of men out there.

Better get to work.

[taxidriver]

259. a few points.....as a man

1) I like curvy boobs, breasts, and other naturally enticing things. my liking them does not make me sexist. saying i like them does not make me sexist any more than a woman would be sexist if she said i had nice arms (...which i dont).

2)this is going to sound mean, but most of the women i hear these complaints from are the ones who arent being objectified, if you get my drift.

3)If you are offended by unwanted attention, simply say so; don't try and change the way a whole group of XX chromosone holders feel, or criminilize them for doing so.

that said, i am sorry that you were offended by some of the topics today, and I myself thought a few of the things i saw were a bit tasteless.

[Name removed]

270. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[taxidriver]

274. sorry. after reading some of the posts she was complaining about, i agree

they were out of line.

if you havent noticed, we men tend to get defensive fairly quickly about this subject..

[Guaranteed]

280. Yeah, some were "out of line."

There were some rather explicit, inappropriate responses. But no posts, nor the thread itself, were sexist.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

275. See my post #267 for

"Sexism as a group sport." :eyes:

[slinkerwink]

185. so you don't think the term "infirmary feminists" is sexist?

[Guaranteed]

193. Didn't even see it.

Link?

[liberalhistorian]

287. And I'm getting sick of being

told on DU about how much better it is to have a "fit, attractive" woman as a girlfriend even if she's a dumb bitch and how women who gain weight after a relationship has started are insulting their partner and have no regard for him and that there has to be physical attraction for a man to be at all interested in a woman and all the men who rush in to and fall all over themselves to agree and who then get angry at the women who take offense and tell them to "get over it" and "get used to it" and other such useless dismissive contemptuous bullshit.

And I'm getting sick of men complaining about male-bashing when women have to deal with the other way around a HELLUVA LOT MORE and it's much more accepted culturally.

[Iris]

to steal from noiretblue's post on the other thread:

"that's not "biology"...it's social conditioning

that stimulation from objectifying women."

Having a sex drive doesn't mean you need to objectify the opposite sex. Then we'd be no better than some animals.

[Guaranteed]

82. Social conditioning?

But isn't being gay biological?

[slinkerwink]

84. what the fuck?

[Guaranteed]

100. What? I thought that people's sexual drives were biological?

Isn't that true?

[slinkerwink]

106. sexism is NOT biological----it's social conditioning

where men learn how to sexually objectify women from their male peers or from the media.

[Guaranteed]

116. I know what you're talking about, but saying a woman

is sexually attractive, even in a crass manner, isn't it.

[slinkerwink]

133. it IS sexist to say a woman is sexually attractive in a crass manner like

this one:

"Boy, hoo! I'd sure love to fuck that piece of ass!"

[Iris]

175. Yes. But how they deal with those drives is greatly determined by society

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

88. Men treating women like a THING is sexist...men admiring a woman is not

men who refuse to distinguish the two are as knuckledragging asswipes as fundamentalists that only teach creationism.

WOMEN ARE MOTHERFUCKING HUMAN BEINGS WITH BRAINS attached to those tits and asses and we KNOW objectification when we see it and will FUCKING CALL you on it...GET THE FUCK OVER IT.

[Guaranteed]

107. SAYING A WOMAN IS SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE IS NOT

OBJECTIFYING HER. PERIOD.

[slinkerwink]

109. talking about FUCKING HER is sexually objectifying her. PERIOD.

[Guaranteed]

122. No, it isn't.

It's inappropriate in certain circumstances, but NOT SEXIST. Get your shit straight.

[slinkerwink]

134. look at post #117

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

117. Depends on where you say it and how you do it...saying it in a board

meeting is most definitely sexist...saying it when she is appearing before your bench and arguing a case (YES IT HAS FUCKING HAPPENED TO ME) is most definitely sexist...admiration need not be predatory...and you need not be so absolute in defense of leachery.

[Kipepeo]

208. You can have a sex drive

without being a sexist.

Why do so many men seem to think they are the same thing?

[smirkymonkey]

248. You really don't get it, do you?

It's not about sex, it's about power and oppression.

[KissMyAsscroft]

4. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Guys find a woman hot, and that is sexism? That is called BEING HUMAN.

Nice to know that there are people on this board that can always find outrage.

[rene moon]

8. It's fine to find a woman "hot"

I hate that term---but can't it be done without resulting to it being crass? sheesh!

[Guaranteed]

10. Well is it crass, or sexism?

There is a HUGE difference.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pithlet]

14. It is NOT about finding someone attractive

That is not the point.

[liberalhistorian]

27. No, it certainly isn't the point,

and it's amazing and very telling how so many men have missed the point entirely. And I'm really sick of being hit with that "over-sensitive" bullshit from MEN who do not have to deal with this shit the way we gals do.

[slinkerwink]

28. exactly! I'm sick of men objectifying women

[Guaranteed]

32. Translated: I'm sick of men looking at women sexually.

Or can a man look at a woman sexually without "objectifying" her?

[slinkerwink]

45. having a sex drive doesn't mean you have to sexually objectify women

[Pithlet]

48. So, your translation

is the absolutely correct one? There is NO chance that you may reading something into this that isn't there? There is absolutely no circumstance where attraction can cross the line, particularly when discussing society and not an individual? Or is it better and easier to just dismiss all of this as "ball busting" so you don't have to think about it too much?

[Guaranteed]

63. It crosses the line when women are ONLY sexual objects

and no longer PEOPLE.

Posting a thread that mentions the sexual attractiveness of a woman does not cross that line. Nowhere near it, in fact.

[rene moon]

80. To me

Saying you (in general)want "do her" does. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

[Pithlet]

103. It depends

I've seen those threads cross the line here at DU. It makes a lot of women uncomfortable to be in the presence of "Oh, she's hot! Man, I'd like to do her!" kinds of posts because of the sexism that we face every day. It may not be sexist for the person posting it to feel that way. But it is insensitive at the very least to post it here at DU, when they could just as easily keep that amongst their own friends. There is a difference between doing that when hanging out with your buddies, and posting it in a public place.

I would point out a picture of a sexy, attractive man to my friends and we could all agree on his sex appeal. I would never post it here on DU and do the same thing. And if, in a lapse of judgment, I decided to do so, I wouldn't tell anyone who was offended to get over it. There is a time and a place, and understanding that goes a long way towards peace here at DU.

[Catch22Dem]

40. Women do the same thing all the time, though.

I mean, hell, it's where the term "hunk" comes from. Is it equally offensive, or is it somehow different? This is an honest question, not an attempt to counter.

[Pithlet]

54. You will have a point

When we have "The woman show". When in tv shows, movies and commercials, the man is always the good looking one, and the woman is less than attractive. When male news anchors are retired when a few wrinkles and gray hairs show up. When actresses' careers last as long as their male counterparts.

The point isn't that anyone finds anyone else attractive. If that is all you can see in this argument, then you aren't looking deep enough.

[Iris]

70. Yes, and as far as I know, having women think he is attractive has

never held a man down.

[Catch22Dem]

115. Ah, therein lies an interesting point

A man views BEING objectified as a good thing. Men love to be oogled and teased and, yes, objectified by women. Some men, will simply assume women enjoy the same thing. Luckily I don't fall into this category, otherwise my very strong-willed wife would have never married me. ;)

However, I think too many things are being lumped into one discussion here. I don't see any problem with commenting that a member of the opposite sex is "hot" regardless of which sex is doing the commenting. Sometimes I think it's very interesting to see what other people think "attractive" is. Some people may think Edwards' daughter is attractive, and some may think Edwards is attractive. It's not so much objectifying the person (if that's the limit of the discussion) rather objectifying physical features and seeing if others agree or disagree.

There was a wonderful thread on DU some time ago about the actress from "Love Actually" who, in the movie, is portrayed as the "fat girl." Well someone posted her picture and of course the men fell in love with her. She's extremely beautiful indeed. In that thread, A LOT of DU women commented that it was nice to hear all the guys thinking this girl was attractive, since she didn't fit "the mold."

[Eloriel]

276. There's NO reason to start a thread about finding someone "hot"

None at all. Whether that someone is male or female, it's objectification, and that is ipso facto dehumanizing. When it's a woman being objectified, it adds to, prolongs, reinforces, strengthens the world-wide problem of the oppression of women.

As I said upthread, there is NO reason men have to make group sport out of drooling over attractive women. None whatsoever. YOU MAKE ALL OUR LIVES WORSE BY YOUR PARTICIPATION IN SEXUAL LEERING AS GROUP SPORT. Do you get it?

And any man who considers himself liberal or progressive should be ashamed to SEE threads and other discussions like that, let alone participate in them. He should also join DU women in trying to raise the level of understanding on the part of people who run this place of what sexism is so DU can stop being a part of the problem.

[Catch22Dem]

87. I wasn't talking about attractiveness though

I was talking about "objectifying" the opposite sex.

There's not a "Woman Show" because women are classier and more discreet. These are not my words, my wife was adding to the dialogue. She says men are more idiotic and feel the need to make shows about hot women whereas women are more sly about it.

I have to agree. I mean, you're totally right about stuff like "The Man Show" but I must also point out shows like "Melrose Place", "90210", and "Dawson's Creek" where the boys are just as much eye-candy as the girls. Also, lots of news channels are hiring less talented but more attractive male personalities as well as female. My local FAUX affilliate is a perfect example. Then there's magazine ads. Pick up a men's magazine, and the ads are geared towards men, and feature beautiful women (or what the magazine thinks is beautiful) that their target audience is going to go ga-ga over. Pick up any womens' magazine, and it's the same story. Pretty boys with no shirts, shaved chests, bleach blond hair, chisled jaws, steely eyes, advertizing foot cream or deodorant or some other completely unrelated product.

So, I'm not disagreeing with you, or arguing with you. You'll find me very agreeable indeed, but there IS a double standard here.

[NMDemDist2]

260. agreed Catch22, we women are slier about it and society rewards

us when we use "sexy" to our advantage. What is unfortunate is that some forget there are seasons to life.

in my teens and twenties it was all about "sexy" and tuff

30's taught me tuff and smart will hold me til the end of my years.

Sexy was fun, smart is forever.

I had a boyfriend once who used to say "Beauty is skin deep, but ugly's to the bone." One of the hardest things I ever did was to learn to take a compliment, whether it was "Nice Dress" or "Good Job" or "Good point"

I try to see the spirit in the phrase, and if it's not "ugly to the bone" say thank you and move on.

I read the Edward's daughter thread and some were inappropriate, but I sure didn't see any "ugly" there.

[merh]

72. I don't understand the argument here. I must be dense, I don't get it.

How many female posters think that Clinton is dreamy and have posted that on DU?

This is such an odd thread.

[rene moon]

86. Again, it's fine to appreciate someone's looks

To degrade them to sex objects isnt--what's so hard to understand? :argh:

[merh]

144. I guess it is a case of personal perception.

There are those who have written that Clinton is the best president we have had in years, they see him as dreamy and wonderful and can do no wrong. From their posts it may appear to the reader that he is so dreamy because of his looks and not because of his abilities in office. Now that might not be what is meant, but that is often how it is perceived.

Perception is a choice. Have sexist comments been made to me by men in power? Yes, does it degrade me - no, it may reduce my opinion of the man, but it does not affect my self-esteem. It has not prevented me from achieving my goals either. When the overtures or comments have been to much, I have addressed them at that time, not fumed about them and blamed every male for the actions of a few.

Apparently you read those posts that you found so revolting. Why? I don't like Jugs magazines so I don't buy them.

There are plenty of threads on DU that I find annoying or insulting. I just don't read them. Change the channel if you don't like the program, skip the thread if you find it insulting.

Like I said, I don't get it -- I'm not trying to be dense, I'm just being honest. Boys will be boys, locker room talk occurs and didn't you say the thread that caused you such concern was in the lounge?

[rene moon]

229. I dont buy the "boys will be boys" thing

I think that is a cop-out, a BIG cop-out!

[merh]

258. If you go into their locker room (the DU lounge) and they

are talking their talk - then don't be offended by it if you chose to stop and listen (read the posts) Sometimes they don't have a clue and after going back through the posts on that other thread in the GD section that you referenced, it is obvious that mixed messages are still being sent and received.

I think the cop-out is yours. You have a personal responsibility to those around you to let them know the manner you wish to be treated. How you perceive the treatment (or how sensitive you are) is your choice.

Empathy is a wonderful tool. Walk in their shoes. Just as you expect them to walk in yours. Respect the confusion and work on the ongoing effort to inform and enlighten, not attack and be depressed by it.

My goodness, how far we have come, but how we stay in the same place. There have always been sex kittens and men have always carried on with their locker room talk.

Don't visit the locker room. They were posting in the lounge, let them lounge or be lounge lizards. You are better than that and it is how you feel about yourself that matters. If you project that confidence, men generally can pick up on it and will not belittle you with sexist remarks.

(IMHO)

[Kanary]

61. Oh, they "get" the point....... it's just another way to put women down

[Pithlet]

78. Not always

I do think that sometimes it is an issue of miscommunication, particularly in this thread. There are those who think the issue is as shallow as finding someone attractive. They're jumping to a defense against an accusation that isn't there.

[Kanary]

128. Reasonable people disagree ^_^

I think the issue has been around for too long to be "misunderstanding".

I think it's just a way to get women to be defensive.

It's not like we haven't said it a few million times. :hi:

But, your mileage may vary...... :)

Kanary, who's been at this for waaaay too long.......

[Catch22Dem]

131. Yes

You're right. There is an automatic defense against an accusation that wasn't intended. However, the accusation has been implied. It's been indicated that simply calling a member of the opposite sex "hot" is inappropriate. Hot is not gender specific, which makes it a non-issue in the broader terms of the discussion, but, as usual, it becomes the centerpiece instead.

[Pithlet]

136. Where was this indicated?

That merely saying someone is hot is inappropriate? I didn't see it.

[Catch22Dem]

160. I think I owe you an apology on that point...

I read "I hate that term---but can't it be done without resulting to it being crass? sheesh!" as calling someone "hot" is being crass. I think I may have misread.

She said: "It's fine to find a woman "hot" I hate that term---but can't it be done without resulting to it being crass? sheesh!

Unless Rene tells me otherwise, I now think she means simply calling a woman hot is no big deal, but carrying on with being a pig beyond that is where she (rightfully) has a problem.

If I misread originally, I apologize.

[rene moon]

241. That is what I meant

going further than "hot" is insulting. PS--I just hate the word hot.

[rene moon]

16. Retarded?

Nice use of words there buddy.

[Guaranteed]

18. Even if someone DID say that, it's not sexist.

Like rene said above, it's "crass," and inappropriate in a public setting, but it's not sexist.

No one should be ashamed for being sexually attracted to anyone. That's Puritanical garbage.

[Pithlet]

29. It isn't

sexist to be attracted to another person, or to profess that attraction. You're right. There is a difference between that, and degradation and objectification. Discussing those issues, and the sexism and misogyny inherent with those things is not accusing anyone who finds anyone else attractive sexist, and it is defensive and reactionary to make that accusation. Whether or not you agree with anything I just said, you can't deny that it is a valid discussion, and goes beyond just finding someone attractive.

[Guaranteed]

46. OK.

Thank you.

There IS something wrong with seeing women ONLY as sexual objects, but that doesnt mean that sexy women can't be pointed out as such, AND THREADS THAT DO SO ARE NOT SEXIST.

[Pithlet]

66. There is another thread

that discusses sexism and the feminist movement. Words like "feminazi" were used. I could be wrong, but I think it was that thread, or at least one of them, that caused the OP to post what she did.

[Iris]

50. but should the person someone is attracted to be subject to whatever

that person wants to say about him/her?

[Guaranteed]

91. It's the feelings of the person being attracted.

So, in short, and especially on a message board, yes, while there are some exceptions.

I'd say more on the subject, but there is very little situational information here.

[slinkerwink]

174. so the feelings of the man being attracted to the woman should trump

the feelings of the woman who is being sexually objectified?

[Iris]

44. You can't tell her what doesn't matter to her.

Who made you the final judge on what should matter to someone else?

[ParanoidPat]

168. Hmmm, "Attraction is initially based on looks......

......and anyone who tells otherwise is a liar."

From that statement should I infer that;

A) the blind people that I know are incapable of being attracted to their mates.

B) the growing number of people who meet 'on line' in chat rooms and other Internet forums that claim to be attracted to one another before ever seeing each other or meeting face to face are all LIARS!

C) I'm not a real man because looks mean very little to me when it comes to what attracts me to a woman.

D) All of the above.

:shrug: Just wondering. :evilgrin:

[Pithlet]

13. No, you're not the only one

And the "shut up and quit your bitching" brigade has already shown up in full force, I see. Predictable. I'm just about fed up with it as well. I'm beginning to think that there is no place anymore where you're allowed to discuss these issues.

[liberalhistorian]

22. Yes, the ubiquitous, inevitable,

"get over it" crowd has already shown up here in full force, disgusting!

[seabeyond]

15. men degrading women is solely for power and control

that is all. it is not the healthy yummy mutual satisfaction between man and women. their is not a respect. and because women can easily hear the disrespect absolutely doesnt mean they should embrace it. reject it. too many women dont reject it. i dont allow it. doesnt make me less a woman, or sexual, more so, cause i respect my person and expect the same from my mate, my sexuality is beyond any of this garbage. that is the problem with the degradation, it isnt mutual, there is a lacking and so there is a continue need to feed to gain, what i have

i dont need to buy into this male is sexual ergo we need to make women less to feel good about ourselves. that is bogus.

i personally know it is way greater than that, and i am not willing to settle for less

[seabeyond]

17. lol lol goes all the way back to the mommy issue

in reality

[liberalhistorian]

19. I"m afraid I have to agree.

I was totally, completely shocked at that "My girlfriend's gotten fat is there anything I can do" thread on Saturday night and more than shocked at many of the male responses to it, one man even saying that gaining weight was insulting and a slap in the face to her partner and showed a lack of regard, and another saying he was happy with a more "fit, attractive" girlfriend and would never again date anyone who wasn't.

I wonder if he'd be that happy if she then dumped HIM for a "more fit, attractive" boyfriend with a larger male appendage? And I wonder how all these shallow, superficial gents would do if their beautiful gal got cancer and her hair fell out or she gained weight from some of the treatments (which happened to a friend undergoing treatment for lymphoma), or if she were in a car wreck and was physically disfigured or disabled, etc., etc. It was beyond discouraging, I'll tell you. A

nd as a woman who's a natural breast size 44DD, I've gotten mighty tired of men only looking at that particular part of me and nothing else, certainly not my mind. Yes, women do it too, especially in regards to how much money a man makes, but men do it far more, much more.

[supernova]

21. I'm more concerned about

the sexism thread in GD, esp that guy with his mythic society where women are women and don't feel a need to threaten men.

I don't think the Edwards' daughter thread here in the lounge is any worse than what we women engage in with which men are hot.

[rene moon]

33. well, it just seemd to go hand-in-hand to me today

I never said I am "ashamed of sex" or "denied men their sexuality". Like I could---men are aroused all the time by our culture, all day, everday! I like looking at an attractive person too---who doesn't?

But the attitudes about women in society haven't seemed to change much---it depresses me and I felt the need to talk about it.

Imagine little ol' married me causing such a ruckus (teehee)

[NMDemDist2]

268. teehee you did smack the hornet's nest indeed

:bounce:

[liberalhistorian]

36. Hey, Supernova!

Where'd your HOT sig pic of that HOT HUNK OF FLESH Johnny Depp go? :evilgrin:


Sorry, couldn't resist it (ducks and runs).

[supernova]

57. I love him for his mind only!!

Not his infititely deep brown liquid eyes, not his impossibly high cheek bones, not his oh so generous bow of a mouth.

And certainly NOT those tattoos!

[liberalhistorian]

79. ROFLMAO!

I hadn't seen that pic yet, that's hilarious! Not one of his best, though. I didn't even know he had tattoos! I would never, ever ever consider dating a man with any kind of tattoo, no, nope, nyet, nein, nosirree bob, jane and alice, absolutely no tattoos!! That just shows a lack of personal discipline and regard and tattoos are immoral and I won't even look twice, hell not even once, at a man who has one! Never mind that he could be the greatest person since Gandhi or the smartest since Einstein or the nicest since Christ, if he's wearing a tattoo, then that just says it all about him!! :evilgrin:

How's that feel, guys??? See how ridiculous judging solely on looks is??????????

[hippiegranny]

24. ignore button

use it

[DrWeird]

25. I guess I'm having a problem telling the difference between...

sexism and sexuality.

Is pointing out a member of the opposite sex as attractive sexist?

Is the objectification of the opposite sex an absolute wrong? How about dildos?

[slinkerwink]

39. it's not sexist to point out the attractiveness of a woman

but when you have a lounge thread like that, where dozens of responses were from men who focused on Edwards' daughter's beauty, and kept talking about how they'd like to do her. That was just disgusting. It's just the unwanted "male gaze" I see in those threads.

Do you know what it's like to be grocery shopping and have a guy mentally undress you? It's very disconcerting to be reduced to a sexual package.

[DrWeird]

74. Still going over my head.

I read the thread as:

"Look at this photo. This person is sexually attractive."

reply: "I agree. I sure would like to have sex with that sexually attractive person."

It was a bit more lewd, but the sentiment was the same.

I don't get how that becomes: "Society hates women."

"Do you know what it's like to be grocery shopping and have a guy mentally undress you?"

Yes, it's terrible.

[Susang]

94. Let me try to explain what I think she meant

There is a difference between a Lounge thread that is meant to be light hearted, discussing a woman's attributes. It is an entirely different thing if, in a political thread in GD, if someone interjects comments regarding the sexual attractiveness of the <choose one> candidate, anchorperson, etc.. The reason it was compared to the unwelcome gaze, is that it is completely unexpected, inappropriated and uncalled for. It is also extremely diminishing, when as a woman you are trying to be taken seriously for reasons other than your sexuality, that is one of the main thing you see people latch onto when discussing women of note.

Have I made it any clearer? I apologize if I have not. As I am not the original poster, it is only my interpretation of what she posted.

[rene moon]

108. Thank you!

You said it better than I did. I am just worked up about it and annoyed. Again, thanks.

[DrWeird]

126. I agree, but am still confused...

I thought this thread was about the Lounge thread which said that Edward's daughter hot and others agreed in somewhat jocular manners.

[Nevernose]

75. So if I think you're pretty, then I'm a creepy male chauvanist?

If I notice you in line at the grocery store and maybe give you a little shy smile, then I'm a creep? Or are you talking about the way some men leer at pretty women, appraising them like they were a side of beef?

Because the difference in this example is not that one man is sexist and the other is not; the difference is that one has class and the other does not.

Men like pretty women. I like pretty women. I like to talk about/admire pretty women with other people who like pretty women. Saying "Edwards' daughter is hot, man I'd like to bone her," while crude, is not in itself inherently sexist. Saying "Edwards' daughter is hot, all she'd be good for is boning" IS. Being attracted to the opposite sex does not make one sexist; stereotyping one sex or another as being superior to another makes one sexist.

[slinkerwink]

89. no...saying "edwards' daughter is hot, man I'd like to bone her"

IS sexist because you're reducing her to nothing more than a sexual package that way. She's subject to whatever you want to say about her, and that's the "unwanted male gaze" that many women have to face.

It's fine to notice the beauty of a woman, but not to go to the extent of sexually objectifying her by making lewd comments.

[DrWeird]

119. Now I'm even more confused.

Alright, so I can say "This person is hot."

That's OK, you said it wasn't a problem when Paragon first wrote it.

Now, when I say the word hot, I mean "sexually attractive." Most people, I would imagine, mean "hot" as "sexually attractive."

For example, I think Sean Connery is handsome, however, I do not think he is hot.

Now, when somebody says "sexually attractive" it pretty much implies "I would like to have sex with this person (given that I could) or that "it would be nice to have sex with this person" or "I can see how somebody else would like to have sex with this person", etc.

So is it OK to say this person is "sexual attractive" but not OK to say "I would like to have sex with this person?"

Or is the difference: it's OK to say "I would like to have sexual relations with so-in-so" whereas it is not OK to say "man, I'd like to bend her over and fuck her brains out."

Because if it's latter, then it's not an issue of sexism, but vulgarity/prudishness.

[slinkerwink]

137. look at post #99

[DrWeird]

149. OK, I've read it.

So then this debate is more about vulgarity/prudishness then sexism?

[slinkerwink]

161. it's sexism.

[DrWeird]

169. Not following.

how is it sexism?

[Nevernose]

202. It's crude and vulgar; where does the sexism come in?

"Man, I'd like to bone her" is a crude statement, as are most other possible statements regarding somone's sexiness (whatever the hell "sexiness" is -- is that even a word?). That's a given. But is expressing the desire to have sexual relations with a member of the opposite sex sexist?

Is expression of sexual attraction inherently inherently sexist? Does that expression mean that I am incapable of perceiving a woman as a complete human being and not some kind of sex toy?

I think not, especially if sexual attraction is what the discussion is about.

Most men talk about sex and whom they would like to have sex with (some of us do it more crudely than others *blush*). I and my circle of friends, however, have never once suggested that men are superior, or the inverse -- that women are inferior, or suggested that women are somehow incapable of doing anything a man can do.

[Djinn]

273. wasn't going to buy into this thread

because I kinda sit on the fence on this - and sitting on a fence isn't all that comfortable! Maybe because I've always had more close male friends than female I can see things a bit from the other side - maybe I'm just a let down to the sisterhood I dunno.

I can't agree with this statement "no...saying "edwards' daughter is hot, man I'd like to bone her IS sexist because you're reducing her to nothing more than a sexual package that way." - what if that statement is continued ie "edwards' daughter is hot, man I'd like to bone her and then have a discussion about politics" does it then stop being sexist?

I think I'd have to go with the definition posted by Argumentus - if you say that's ALL she'd be good for/at then it's clearly sexist, I can't see "I wanna boink her/him" as a sexist remark

[Kanary]

113. You might want to ask John Edwards how he feels about men saying that

I suspect he wouldn't think too highly of you for such crude statements.

All the justifying in the world doesn't make it right.

If you ever have a daughter you love, you might see it differently.

Too bad it would take that to open your eyes.

Kanary

[Nevernose]

164. Actually, I DO have a daughter

It took me a while to get back to this post because I was picking her up from summer daycare. The idea that in just a couple of years men will begin salivating over her makes me distraught; then again, as long as she receives equal consideration for equal possiblities, and lives and emotionally and physically healthy lifestyle, then I'll have to chalk men being sexually attracted to her as a function of biology.

The statement was crude. Given. That makes me and others who say it crude, not sexist. Suggesting that all Edwards' daughter is good for would make me and others a sexist. Would it have been better if I'd said "My, that is an attractive woman. Perhaps sexual relations with an attractive human such as she would be enjoyable."

Am I supposed to have the thought, but make sure it is never expressed and constantly repressed? Or am I supposed to never have these thoughts at all?

I'm not a sexist. Occasionally crude, yes, but not one given to the objectification of women. For instance, I do not own porno tapes. Regardless of people attempting to portray them as "sexual liberation of women," I believe that they degrading to the women who star in them and demeaning to the men who watch them.

[Kanary]

221. Doing harm to women is SEXISM. Whether you want to see that or not

doesn't change it.

Constantly talking about "boning women" is HARMFUL.

If you have a close enough relationship with your daughter, you may just hear her say that some day.

I will repeat...... I doubt that you would say this either TO Edward's daughter, or to Edwards himself. that ought to be a clue.

Kanary

[Nevernose]

247. Actually, I wouldn't say that to anyone

The "boning women" thing was hypothetical, an attempt to sum up some of the Lounge posts in as short as statement as possible and still retain the flavor of them as a whole. While I was certainly guilty of talking and thinking of women this way in high school, that was a long time ago.

Of COURSE I would never say that to Edwards' or his daughter or to anyone else. Besides the fact that he would kick my ass, and rightfully so, it would be an incredibally crude thing to say -- not sexist, just rude and vulgar.

I will also repeat: Am I supposed to have the thought, but make sure it is never expressed and constantly repressed? Or am I supposed to never have these thoughts at all?

Because if it's okay for me to have these thoughts, just not okay to put them in crude terminology, then you've got an argument against poor manners and bad taste, not against sexism.

[Kanary]

279. What you're *SUPPOSED* to do .......

is to care about women as human beings who deserve the same respect and consideration as you do.

If you can't care about us as *PEOPLE*, then at least you can care enough not to push women away from the important work of caring about and working for this nation, and this planet.

It's not up to YOU to decide what's sexist, or not....... the same as it's not up to white folks to decide what's racist or not. Becuase those who are on the priviledged side have the tendency to keep saying "Oh, that's not sexist/racist... you're just being .....(fill in the blank".

Quite similar to what the reich wing is doing to "libruls", as a matter of fact.

Backing off when we say something is over the line really isn't that hard, nor does it diminish you in any way.

Kanary

[DrWeird]

250. Alright, how do you define "sexism"

For example, I do not define sexism as "doing harm to a woman." For example, I would not consider stealing a woman's wallet as "sexism." Nor would I consider telling my friend, "that woman is sexually attractive" would be doing harm to a woman (or sexist, for that matter).

"Constantly talking about "boning women" is HARMFUL."

(I assume you'll mean "occasionally" since I don't know anyone who "constantly" talks about "boning women", that said...)

Is talking about having sex with women harmful? If so, how? Furthermore, is it a problem with "having sex" or is it the more vulgar "boning" and "doing."

Because if it's the latter, then I'll have to repeat, it's not a sexism issue, but one of vulgarity.

Furthermore, I don't see why we have to keep bringing Edwards' father into this discussion as this woman is an adult.

No, I wouldn't say "I'd like to bone you," to Ms. Edwards (frankly, I don't find her that attractive). Nor would I say I'd like to have sex with you, not because I think it's sexist, it's just not tactful. Nor would I think it was sexist if somebody who does find Ms. Edwards attractive to a go up to her and ask, "would you like to go out with me for dinner sometime?" (which, let's face it, is just a more tactful, roundabout way of saying "I'd like to bone you.")

[Djinn]

283. Nope

I wouldn't say to Nancy Reagan "you're husband should have been tried for war crimes and paid for the deaths and torture of thousands" but that doesn't mean I'm wrong to think that.

I think that Johnny Depp is eminently bonkable but I doubt I'd say that to HIM were we ever to meet, there's "innappropriate" and there's "sexist" they're not the same thing.

I also find the people posting here suggesting that if people had/have daughters or if they're close enough to them that they will also tell them that talking about "boning women" is harmful. You're assuming ALL women have the same views on this and frankly I find THAT kinda sexist in itself, having the XX chromosome pattern doesn't make me agree with everyone else who shares that pattern

[seabeyond]

99. kept talking about how they'd like to do her.

a hint, and i suggest you know this, all the men (boys) know this.

would you say this to edwards daughter if you were to meet her.

would you say this to edwards.

if it is too offensive to say to the face, there is the obvious that it is offensive. who are you kidding. your self only, and in arguement whenever female finally say enough. that is disgusting degrading.

you know when you are doing it, wouldnt say it in front of your mother. you know when you are taking away anothers power, you can feel it.

i dont know that you are confused dr wierd, but if so, these are little, or obvious clues for you

what do you think about a man coming to you saying i want to do you sister, man her tits her ass............

offensive, you tell me what your gut says.

and i am being tmae in language.

we act like we are confused, but respect isnt a tough one

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

26. I guess I'm lucky

in that I have never fit the "Barbie doll" mold of how women "should" look. Frankly, men who are only interested in looks never appealed to me-I always felt that they had a lack of maturity. It took me until I was 38 to find a real man-one who was interested in me for who I am, not how I look. He opened my eyes to other men who feel the same way, and to the fact that advertising BS is just that-and that men understand this as well.

[Fescue4u]

30. Is she really hot?

I hadnt see her picture yet.

I'll have to check that out.

[kayell]

31. It looks like this thread is proving your point

:cry:

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slinkerwink]

42. ahhh, personal attacks.

You don't know what it's like to be a woman doing normal activities and encountering the "unwanted male gaze." For instance, I was grocery shopping today and there was a guy mentally undressing me. I could tell from his lascivious look, and it was so disconcerting and I felt like I was being visually molested that way. It's the "unwanted male gaze" that thousands of women like me have to deal with when we go out to do shopping or run errands. Men just feel the freedom to sexually objectify women or to make crass remarks about them.

[Djinn]

291. slink it's not possible

to visually molest someone, and while it usually isn't too hard to tell when a bloke is having a sad perv (note to the guys - you're really not good at subtlety) it's not something you can know for sure, you can not ascertain what a stranger is thinking, what you took to be a lascivious look might haver been the guys normal face, or maybe he was eyeing off the donuts behind you and thinking "if only I wasn't on a low carb diet...mmmm donuts"

Like I said you were probably right that he was perving, but I'm just really uncomfortable with terms such as "mentally undressing" and "visually molested" as they inject a sense of women always being victims and also pretty dismissive of people who have actually been molested or assaulted.

If someone makes you uncomfortable by staring at you then the best bet (in a public place anyway) is to stare back at them like the have a freakish growth - they tend to look away.

[kayell]

52. Well, that was certainly a well thought out response to what you assume

I had to say. As many people have pointed out through out the years, there is a difference between being sexually attracted and seeing people as sexual objects.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guaranteed]

55. Oh, they're trying like hell to. nt

[Iris]

58. You are in charge of your own shame.

[Iris]

62. In fact,

I think you should be proud of your insensitivity towards a woman's feelings. Maybe you could get on one of those reality dating shows.

[Guaranteed]

69. You're goddamned right. And I ain't.

I think you can see that.

[Iris]

71. Actually, I can't.

You seem pretty defensive.

[Guaranteed]

73. So do you. nt

[Iris]

96. I don't think I've really said anything that could be interpreted that way

At least not in regard to my own opinion.

I have been defensive of the opinion of the person who started this thread and of people who agree with her because I refuse to let her be bullied into silence by sexually and emotionally immature posters.

[kayell]

64. I directed nothing personally at you. Perhaps, if your response to my

post is to feel ashamed, there is reason for you to be ashamed.

[rene moon]

68. No we are not.

You have missed the point throughout the whole thread.

[Susang]

59. Interesting choice of words

Dontcha think?

[Iris]

65. yep! n/t

[VolcanoJen]

35. Just call me the Ultra-Positive DU Thread Ambassador!!!

I'm just too high on the new ticket to be upset today.

DU can be discouraging and uplifting at the same time... it's de rigeur for the Big Tent Set! Sometimes you have to dig a little deep, but here are a few positive threads (including a few started by yours truly), about the Ohio Kerry-Edwards rallies, that lifted my heart today. Lift your spirits and read on, rene moon!!!!

Just got back from the Kerry rally in Dayton - by galadrium

What A Great Day - by Chris Heinz

What A Rally in Dayton! - by SeanOhio

I just returned from the Kerry/Edwards Rally in Dayton, Ohio! - by olddem43

DUer Kukesa made the FRONT PAGE of the Cincinnati Enquirer!!! - by VolcanoJen

VolcanoJen's Excellent Kerry-Edwards Rally Adventure! (I met Teresa!!) - by VolcanoJen

[Paragon]

38. As the poster of the "Edwards daughter is hot" thread, I can say...

...I meant it in a completely positive way.

I feel sorry for you if you glean some kind of sexist undertone from a genuine compliment.

[rene moon]

60. Well, I was more talking about the responses

about "doing" her. It was overwhelming. I mean, I love Johnny Depp but I am not going to talk about doing him.

Paragon--I'm not mad at you--just the situation. Hope you understand.

[Paragon]

I do, and I hope you understand...

...that posting anonymously on a message board is often a playground for the id, freeing yourself to say what you might otherwise not in mixed company.

99% of the guys who made such comments on that thread would not do so in public. It's completely healthy to have sexual thoughts -- it's the minority who act on them without a second thought that make the rest of us look bad.

[supernova]

85. You haven't been in the fan rooms

women, otherwise upstanding women -- pillars of the community--- regularly talk about "doing" Johnny. It is rather sickening at times.

This is also true of Orlando Bloom, David Beckham, Brad Pitt,

[Kanary]

151. So, we can avoid those places.

It's highly irritating when one *CAN"T* avoid it when trying to be more politically active, and gain information about what is happening in our nation. The argument can be made that we can avoid the lounge, and that's what I do.

I don't feel it's my "duty" to put up with sexist crap just because I want to talk politics.

Kanary

[supernova]

245. Certainly, you can avoid those places

Even if it does make me a little ill, I prefer to see what people are really thinking. It doesn't have to be cruel or even sexist, just honest.

[DancingBear]

112. Here's the point rene - it's OK if you do

If you have a chance, hit the archives for some Wes Clark posts. If you're not aware, Clark is a very attractive man, and there were long-running posts about "doing" Wes from several female DU Clarkies. No one took it for anything more than what it was. That may be good advice here, as well.

I've been around a while - I was in college when the womens lib movement began in earnest, and took my share of hits from the hockey boys for being able to talk about both fore checking and Flo Kennedy. I listened, and learned, and have tried for 30+ years now to remain true to the beliefs that I learned back then.

I still find women attractive, and yes I still steal the quick glance when I think she isn't looking, even though she's seen that ploy a thousand times. However, despite protestations from some of our younger posters, it does not detract from the amazing ability that I and millions of other men have - the ability to see the playing field as equal, and to do our best to level it out if it isn't.

Crazy world, ain't it?? :)

[rene moon]

189. Ok, just one question

why do you still try to "steal glances when she isn't looking"? Sorry but I think that is just rude and makes me sad. It does and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

[DancingBear]

224. Because she's attractive??

What other reason would there be? Surely I wouldn't want to stare - that would be rude. I think you are WAY off base here by tying together physical beauty and rudeness.

What if the object of beauty was an inanimate object - a beautifully restored automobile, for example? Suppose I sneak a peek at stop lights, doing so because I don't want to get involved with the driver, yet I still wish to look.

I'm saddened by the fact that you easily overlook all other aspects of my behavior, and focus on this.

It may be of interest for you to know that Mrs. DB, at age 51, considers it quite the compliment when someone "sneaks a glance" at her. Amazing what a couple of decades will do....

(BTW - excuse the slowness of this response - I am on dial-up, and probably won't be able to respond unless someone starts thread #2)

[rene moon]

232. well, I guess it's my own insecurity about that subject

I just think its rude to do that---I am not very attractive and when my husnabd does that---well, it hurts---makes me think why did I even marry if all men do is look at other women. My husband is a very nice guy but this is a sore subject that I can't get past.

It just makes me really upset. sorry.

[slinkerwink]

81. it wasn't you...it was about the responses on that thread that

bothered us, especially the comments about "doing" Edwards' daughter. That's just inappropriate since it sexually objectifies her.

[Paragon]

98. Unfortunately, that's a bit "hardwired" into our systems.

I know, like Jimmy Carter, I'm guilty of "lusting in my heart" - and I'm sure I've been busted taking a fleeting glance at an attractive body part or two in my time.

Not to the extreme of the lascivious staring you described, which IS about power and just plain creepy. Otherwise, forgive the rest of us good guys our occasional trespasses...

[slinkerwink]

105. no, sexism has nothing to do with biology, it has to do with

social conditioning. There is NO biological excuse for sexually objectifying women. We all have brains, right? Let's exercise control of them.

[Paragon]

110. I was referring to sex...

...not sexism.

I, and most other men, are capable of separating the two.

[rene moon]

173. I try

I do, I really try to forgive the occasional trespasses---it's human

[DancingBear]

41. Confusion reigns

She IS attractive, isn't she?

Is there a "correct' way to say so, or must we all slap towels and keep it to ourselves?

[geek tragedy]

43. The brutal truth is that you can't get away from it

I agree that women should be able to go somewhere without seeing/hearing other women being objectified.

But, this crap exists.

I will say that men can appreciate a woman's boobs and her brains--they're not mutually exclusive.

But, there's really no need to share one's opinion on Jeri Ryan's breasts or stuff like that.

[Kanary]

97. Nope, won't just accept it....... didn't before, and won't now

Yes, it exists, and did over 30 years ago. Women spoke up then, are speaking up now, and will continue to speak up until men are capable of growing up.

Kanary

[geek tragedy]

125. Fight the good fight.

Though, men may never grow up. But we can learn to become well-behaved children.

[ParanoidPat]

47. Cheer up Rene.....

.....I,ve never met a woman on DU I didn't love and I love you all for your minds! :)
(I have nothing else to go on having never met any of you! LOL!)

Intellect, charm, whit and a great sense of humor work for me. (Research skills are a + ) :evilgrin:

[ScreamingMeemie]

49. As a 34 year old woman, I realize that the world is made up of

different people...sometimes it irritates me, sometimes not. I do know my limitations though.

I drool over Johnny Depp as eye candy. Is that sexist? Some of the things I've said sure are.

Nobody's perfect, I guess.

Yes, I have those kinds of days, but this is a message board and people don't change overnight. :hi:

[Kanary]

237. What constitutes "overnight"?

The women I know have been fighting this for over 30 years.

I would say we've been quite patient.

Maybe, just like the Dems the last 4 years, patience is NOT rewarded.

Kanary

[ScreamingMeemie]

254. I could get upset and waste a lot of my time getting irritated over

things said on a message board. I already spend far too much time doing just that. Simply put, am I willing to perfect myself and all of my faults? Would that I could. There are limitations everywhere. In the real world my reality is, I am considered an equal by my husband, my male friends, acquaintances and associates. Here at DU, usually, I alert on something sexist and move along. Here we are buffered, here we (some of us) let loose. For good and for bad.

[Kanary]

269. Nice touch, that subtle criticism.

You were a small child when I, and many of us here, were out there busting our butts to change the face of sexism in this country. I guess we shouldn't have gotten "upset, and wasted a lot of our time" trying to make this a better world for women and girl children.
The fact that you are now considered an equal has a lot to do with women in the past taking it seriously, and *supporting* each other in the struggle to create more equality. If you consider it beneath you to be supportive, then at least recognize that others are working to make life more pleasant for all of the female persuasion.

Thank you.

Kanary

[ScreamingMeemie]

282. Kanary you misunderstand me. Sorry for that.

But this is not reality. I see change in reality, in the world in which I live, work and play. I just hate seeing lines drawn here. No subtle criticism was intended. I just posted my views on Internet message boards. I guess I'll have to refrain from doing so in the future.

FWIW, I've seen and suffered quite a bit in my 34 years. I raised a child for 8 years on my own, working two jobs to make ends meet. I've said goodbye to babies of mine that should have been born but were lost late term. I've been stalked by my ex...etc.

I thought opinions were welcome here.

On edit: if you will read through my first post you will find I did say there are times when I am bothered by what I read here.

[Kanary]

293. What you said was directed at *me*, personally.

I accept your apology.

However, I also want women to understand that we need to stop doing this to each other. I'm just as entitled to *my* opinions, and feelings, as you or anyone else. I'm sick to death of being told to "toughen up".

You know, when I was at one of the women's rallies (how many of those do we have anymore/??), in Berkeley about 32 years ago, a man next to me said "One of these days we'll regret women losing their femininity." I was offended by that....... after all, being strong and capable and *EQUAL* doesn't mean we aren't "feminine".

However, in the intervening years, I've come to see there was wisdom in what he said. Too many women have taken on the bravado and strutting toughness of men in order to gain access. Being proud that we aren't "hurt" by things doesn't make us strong....... it does the opposite.... it weakens our very femininity. Those values of feminity.... empathy, caring, nurturing, all depend on being able to feel for the other person. That's precisely what's missing in the misadministration, isn't it? The ability to care because you can feel for another?

And, we can't feel for another if we're busy stomping on our own feelings. So, if you're not bothered by something, fine.... but, that doesn't mean that it's wrong for another to be bothered.

That's the difference in opinions..... you can have your own, but telling other people what to think and what to feel crosses that line.

Women being "tough" hasn't added one jot to the world. And I'm not going to be one of those who tries to outtough men.

Kanary

[Kanary]

51. Yes, the sexism here is depressing, and enervating.

As I've said before, if *ANY* candidate's office were to talk to women in the manner they are talked to and about here, they would soon have NO women volunteers. I don't know of *ANY* women IRL who put up with what is accepted here. NONE.

This is exactly the same issue that happened during the Vietnam protests, and brought about the second wave of femisinsm then. I've said before and I'll say it again....... 30 + years later, and we're still fighting the same crap?

Women have left because of it, and it matters not.

So, yes, many others feel as you do.

Kanary

[Iris]

56. sadly,

there are some women who think nothing of being treated that way.

[slinkerwink]

67. that's what really gets my dander up

is that women are voting against themselves or their best interests when it comes to encouraging sexism or women as a second-class citizens when it comes to education, reproductive choice, workhood, motherhood, etc.

[Iris]

139. I hear you.

[Kanary]

271. Yup. We used to call it being "male identified"

But, I suppose that's too much reality for comfort nowdays.

I know there are women who even seek out women-bashing males. I just don't know them, or hang around with them. Even conservative women I know, who wouldn't relate to being feminists, wouldn't tolerate the kind of junk we're talking about.

Kanary

[NNN0LHI]

76. Hey baby

I am only joking! I am not crazy about the sex threads either. I think it is because of the guilt complex from being raised a Catholic coming back on me? Not sure though?

Don

[molly]

77. You are not off your rocker - being subtle about sex

shows some class. People are not objects - male or female. I would never in a million years buy Playgirl or care to look at it. I know what men look like. I never thought of them as objects. I have had boyfriends who were built like Arnuld and some built like Woody Allen. Sex to me is an IQ thing.

I see those threads and it is a real turn-off - sounds like pugs who see women as subservient and with not intellect or depth.

[htuttle]

83. Humans are bald, more-or-less domesticated apes

This can be EXTREMELY depressing when you first realize it if you had previously held a higher opinion of humankind.

Fact is, we are only a tiny bit more 'evolved' than our hairy, rainforest brethern. While our species might be full of potential, we have a long, long way to go to even get where we like to THINK we are today.

For example, have you ever noticed how many arguments really just boil down to "BARK, BARK! GET OUT OF MY YARD!"? It's how we're built -- it's where we came from (and mostly still are). The Great Work is to become something bigger and better (and help others do the same).

To make matters worse, environmental conditions and overcrowding have made us mostly psychotic, bald, more-or-less domesticated apes. Like overcrowded lab rats, we are more violent than wild primates and possess a whole range of learned, unhealthy behavior.

Given this state of affairs, sexism doesn't seem as outrageous to me as it seems depressing and disapointing. I think it's partly an evolutionary 'artifact' and partly a species neurosis brought on by the society we live in.


:shrug:

[slinkerwink]

95. nope...being sexist has nothing to do with biology...it has to do

with social conditioning, and what young boys are taught by the media and their male peers about objectifying women.

[DrWeird]

143. Oh, I have to disagree with that.

I think people by their very nature are sexst, racist, classist brutes who would soon as murder their neighbor over a territory dispute if their wasn't a justice system to prevent it.

That's what we've got to rise above.

[htuttle]

156. I don't think it's so easy to separate the two

When did humans become sexist? Are other primates 'sexist'? Some other primates ARE what you'd consider sexist, since the females are definitely treated like second class citizens. Other primates, such as the Bonobo, are not (the Bonobo just have group sex all the time and don't worry about 'who's boss').

What was the primate 'proto-human' like? I have no idea, and I'm not sure anyone else does either. There IS a history of sexism (in the sense of strict gender roles) as far back into our species as you can see in many/most cultures ₁.

When did our social behavior change from being 'biological' when we were primates to it's current state of being 'learned'? I think the only thing that changed from then to now is that we now realize we can change our social behavior. I just don't think it occurred to our proto-primate ancester that it could change the way it acted (as a proto-primate 'society').

I'd agree that no, sexism is not biological in the sense that it can't be changed. It IS social conditioning. I would not agree that biology had nothing to do with it, since that's where I think our social conditioning originally came from.

While much more of the social conditioning present in society is purposeful and engineered nowdays, in history past, most of it pretty much just 'came naturally', ie., had been carried along from our evolutionary past.

The point of the distinction? Sexism (among both genders) is something humans need to grow out of -- it's not a disease that we became afflicted with at some point ₂. However, some of the ways this sexism is expressed ARE due to cultural neurosis that we've become afflicted with (such as female circumcision).


<sub>1. Merlin Stone's research aside for the moment -- and even in her work, there was the suggestion of gender roles. They were just different roles.
2. Again, Merlin Stone's work aside for the moment.</sub>

[Ramsey]

90. I like to fight fire with fire

I tend to post pictures of scantily clad buff men on all the "Isn't so-and-so hot" threads. John Edwards' daughter is very attractive, there's nothing wrong with saying so. Chris Heinz is too!

Is there rampant sexism in our society? I think there is. I'm a doctor, and the fact that women doctors make $0.63 for every $1.00 a male doctor makes is depressing.

I work a lot with EMILYs List because it is my strong belief that things will never really get better for women in this country until we have truly equal representation in Congress, and in state and local governmental bodies.

So, I'd suggest you get involved and do something about it. Give to NARAL or NOW, go to marches, volunteer for Planned Parenthood, run for a local office. Maybe you do these things already. But don't let the DU guys get to you. Just have an archive of naked men ready to go!!

[rene moon]

102. Thanks for the advice!

I am involved---it's what my husband loves me for!!!

[Shakespeare]

101. Objectify it & you don't have to fear it.

Sad, but true. I'm depressed by a lot of the posts on this thread and the others you mention, too.

[slutticus]

114. Fear what?

[Shakespeare]

148. Objectification is a distancing technique.

And is not the same thing as simple attraction, which too many on this thread are trying to conflate.

As far as fear: fear of intimacy, fear of that which is not understood, fear of competition, etc. etc. etc.

[Kanary]

264. Yes! Someone with some depth of insight!

Unfortunately, it isn't only the reich wing that doesn't want to look too closely at themselves.

We'll only progress as far as we are willing to look at what's *really* going on inside of us.

Thank you for your words of wisdom!

:thumbsup:

Kanary

[smirkymonkey]

265. I think you are spot on!

If I am honest about my own motivation (which I used to think was sexual) when I have ogled men in mixed company or looked a guy up and down in the supermarket, it has really been about feeling powerful and in control.

And you know what else? Men don't like it. They say they would welcome it, but they don't. I don't think my behavior was entirely conscious, but I am big on the soul searching and trying to understand what motivates me to act the way I do. I am terrified of intimacy and of men in many ways - when I can look at them as sexual objects, I feel less threatened by them.

I know it's not right and I when I do it, I am not aware of what underlies my behavior in the moment. It's only later that I see my behavior for what it is. And sometimes it's just simple attraction and that's it - the sexism is in my attitude and the intimidation factor.

[seabeyond]

123. yes yes yes very good, fear of rejection

you are right on. thank you for this insight

[seabeyond]

132. fear of inadequacy

yup yup. fear of being able to satisfy or measure up

[slutticus]

159. Holy Cow!!!!

I get it now! So I find John Edwards' daughter smokin' hot....and it all stems from my fears of inadequacy. That makes sense now. All this time I was wondering why I was attracted to women.


The next time I see a nice lady at a bar or club, I'm going to tell her that I find her hideous and disgusting. Then maybe she'll be able to sleep at night for once.

[seabeyond]

170. depends on how you talk about edwards daughter

if you are objectifying her dude. dont get that yet?????????

maybe you should look up the word. might help with perception

[Susang]

104. Sorry Rene

Unfortunately, DU has been depressing me for months for this reason. It gets a little bothersome to realize that the world is getting more conservative while I just keep getting more liberal. Hopefully, things will even out a bit. :loveya:

[rene moon]

120. Let's hope so Susang!

But with the way things are right now, I'm not going to hold my breath.

[JayS]

111. I love women! :)

:) :) :)

[seabeyond]

118. and then a female comes on and says how it makes her feel

to hear this. and many other females come on and agree how it feels.

and what do the men do,.........tell the women this is directed at for a lifetime, that they dont know what they are talking about, accept it, deal with it, screw you, its because you are sensitive, repressed, a prude

and then we wonder why women reject the feminism, equality and sit in astonishment on another thread. we are where we are as we watch our progressive males try their damnedest to put us in our place once again

[slinkerwink]

142. this post should be on the front page!!!!!!!!!!

[Cat Atomic]

157. Look, if someone is being crude, then I understand your complaint.

But I'm getting the impression that some women here are pissed because a few guys made note of an attractive woman's looks. Sorry- if that's enough to make you angry, you *ARE* being oversensitive.

How many damned threads have there been on this board about Edward's looks? How many women here have pictures of some movie hunk in their sigs? Why the hell would I be offended by that?

[seabeyond]

176. nah cat, i am not that snesitive

and that is not where i am going, and that is not what is being said on this thread and that is not the initial post of this thread

[Cat Atomic]

191. The inital post of the thread, and most of the thread itself-

is incredibly vague. I'm not seeing much in the way of specifics. Just alot of references to "that attitude" and "what they think".

[JanMichael]

214. Yep. This is Misinformed01, by the way

I think I am posting on Michael's name-

Good post-

[Kipepeo]

216. Exactly

and many other females come on and agree how it feels.

and what do the men do,.........tell the women this is directed at for a lifetime, that they dont know what they are talking about, accept it, deal with it, screw you, its because you are sensitive, repressed, a prude

and then we wonder why women reject the feminism, equality and sit in astonishment on another thread. we are where we are as we watch our progressive males try their damnedest to put us in our place once again

THANK YOU seabeyond. This is the most upsetting thing about it. Feeling like you can't talk about sexism without being told to shut up by someone who doesn't even fucking live it.

[louis c]

124. The President Himself was asked

about Edwards, and the reporter said that Edwards is sexy.

Come on, physical appearance is nothing to be ignored, or ashamed of. It's a reality of life.

Kerry made a comment on the hair thing. That was meant as a joke.

I remember all the short comments about Robert Reich. He took it in stride. I certainly wasn't offended, and I'm a man of 5'4". Come on, get over it. It works both ways, and it shouldn't be taken so seriously, unless it gets vulgar.

[seabeyond]

140. no, i wont get over it

when there is commercials put on tv of a woman, damn close to naked humping the ground crawling to the camera, licking lips ready to give a blow job and it shoots off to a bunch of 20 year old males hoopin and holar like this less than human female is going to come thru the camera and give them all blow jobs, that is not a simple comment on sexy, or hair.

and that is put on sunday afternoon football for the boys and girls to learn how they are suppose to behave

again i say, women are being raped and mutilated and in other countries stoned cause they are raped, sold into sex, .............i beg your pardon

dont tell me to get over it when i know darn well this is feeding all of that, or all that feeds this. simple male control over female

you get over it

tell me i am suppose to sit and watch this commercial without issue

[Kanary]

253. *thank you*! seabeyond! We need a "Not gonna get over it" club!

I really amazes me that there is page after page of comments about "freepers", and how they call us names and ridicule us in an attempt to gain control. And, it worked with the Dems for over 4 years now.

Yet, the same process with women and men doesn't seem to ring a bell.

DIng! Ding! Ding!

Kanary

[VolcanoJen]

127. How weird. An entire front page full of optimistic threads...

... yet, this one gets the most responses.

OK, that's depressing! :D

You can't hold back my exhuberance, no matter how hard you try, DU!

:bounce: :toast: :bounce: :bounce: :toast: :bounce:

Just got back from the Kerry rally in Dayton - by galadrium

What A Great Day - by Chris Heinz

What A Rally in Dayton! - by SeanOhio

I just returned from the Kerry/Edwards Rally in Dayton, Ohio! - by olddem43

DUer Kukesa made the FRONT PAGE of the Cincinnati Enquirer!!! - by VolcanoJen

VolcanoJen's Excellent Kerry-Edwards Rally Adventure! (I met Teresa!!) - by VolcanoJen

[Paragon]

141. I find political activism very sexy.

;-)

Congrats to you & your Mom, Jen! :)

[VolcanoJen]

145. Well, that's why you rock so hard, Paragon!

By the way, it sucks that I have to kick this thread just to say that...

[Paragon]

154. Oh, you and your double-entendres.

I feel so used. :silly:

[VolcanoJen]

165. What does "double-entendre" mean?

Who do you think you are? DAVID GREGORY??? What are you, bi-lingual in two languages, or somethin'?

(weak Bush impression)

[Paragon]

181. double-entendre

http://www.bartleby.com/62/51/D0475100.html

NOUN: An expression or term liable to more than one interpretation.

(i.e. - I've been told I "rock so hard" in a different context.) :silly:

[RedEarth]

150. Weird, but not unusual here at DU....

I did read some of your threads and they are uplifting....thanks for posting them........

[VolcanoJen]

171. It's just so damned frustrating.

I loathe watching us eat our own, ya know?

Of course, I am now guilty of kicking this thread...

[Kanary]

257. Could it be that some women find this important?

If it isn't your thing, then so be it. No need to try to "convert" others.

Many of us have responded to your threads. That doesn't mean that we can't have other interests, also.

It's great that you're pumped up today. Not everybody has to meet you in that place. We all get to be where we are.

Kanary

[Nikia]

129. I think that what is disturbing is being viewed that way all the time

Society seems to objectify women more and more. I wasn't sure if that view was just me or if others were observing it too. I wasn't sure if the observations were based on growing up or hanging out with the wrong type of people or living in a less enlightened part of the country or insecurities with myself.
The men where I work talk about every woman as either " a hot chick who I really want to f***" or some combination of the words "ugly", "fat", and "bitch". My husband and I have male friends who who say that too. Some of these men are unmarried and some are not. They describe every woman, with perhaps some small exceptions like their mothers, in these terms, not just perspective dates. They deal with women in these terms. They give lots of attention to "hot chicks" and either are rude or ignore "ugly bitches". They usually do not deal with women as peers on the same terms that they judge men.
Luckily management doesn't deal with women on these terms, or do they? To some small extent, they seem to. At my recent job interviews, I could feel it. "When you interview for jobs, wear a longer skirt. You must establish from the beginning that you are not a sex object. That's how many men in this business see young attractive women like you," my former female boss said. I didn't notice that when I was younger. I want to be judged at my job as smart, competent, motivated, and hard working, not by my looks.
I worry both about either being too attractive or not attractive enough. I don't want every guy judging me as a "hotchick" or "ugly bitch". I don't want every interaction that I have with a male to be based upon that.
I'm glad that I'm married already to a guy who really does treat women as peers or I may have converted to Catholicism and became a nun or tried dating women.
I want to go back to thinking that I am very unattractive and that guys are nice to me because I am a nice person and intelligent. At lesat all guys aren't like that or are they? Didn't someone say that it was biological?

[NMDemDist2]

138. as a 50 year old woman

I got a chuckle out of the "Edwards daughter is hot" thread. Several posters noted she was a Princeton graduate and that implied brains as well as looks

I just read the whole "institutional sexism" thread and to be honest, many young women I meet today make me despair for the newest generation of feminists.

I was asked whether "women's issues" are a hot button for me, and I said no, I did my fight. Young women today need to realize how much has been won at hard cost in the last 40 years and guard and protect those rights.

I think that judging people on their looks is endemic in every society. Psychologists have done study after study that good looking people are judged "smarter, nicer & better" no matter what their gender.


IMHO, choose your fights and don't get sucked into the trap of fighting for the "appearance of equality" fight for true equality. In health care, wages and political representation.

Not sure any of that made any sense, but to answer your question, Yes you are off your rocker to worry about the crap above, worry about getting women elected and being the best you can be. If someone judges you on your looks, that is more a reflection of their ignorance, not your situation

[Longhorn]

163. As a soon-to-be 49-year old woman

I couldn't have said it better myself! :toast:

[DancingBear]

166. Well, as a 50 year old man

I think you're on the money here. I posted along the same lines (see #112) - I did my time as well, and I'm troubled by this present day sense of stridency merely for the sake of being strident.

Well done.

BTW - are you "hot"? :) :) :) :)

[NMDemDist2]

233. hubby thinks so :blush: n/t

[Logansquare]

195. "Men are from Earth and so are Women--Deal with it"

That was a great bumper sticker I saw during the "Mars vs Venus" craze. I agree with AZ, let's get more women into real positions of power and let the men be hornbots in their leisure time. One thing we shouldn't stand for--the "she's worthless cause she's ugly" threads. If a woman is a great leader, who cares if you don't find her fuckable?

[Gardeaux08]

262. Good point...

"Yes you are off your rocker to worry about the crap above, worry about getting women elected and being the best you can be."

However, that's easier said than done when the most insightful comment made about a female Princeton graduate is about wanting to lift up her skirt in the back of a limousine.

[NMDemDist2]

285. most insightful? how about this one? some were crude agreed

but that was one of 3 or 4 out of 60 or so as I read it


That's like reason #24536547 to vote for Kerry-Edwards!

I heard she's also very smart. That's a big plus. Nothing better than an attractive girl with a brain.

[Cats Against Frist]

146. It's not the fact that people find each other sexy

that bothers me, personally. It's that "what's sexy" has been so homogonized into a stereotype, (thank the Gods of Capitalism), that people literally spend their whole lives trying to fit into it. And other, more peniied subjects spend their whole lives "oh so dejected" if they don't have that homogonized stereotype on their arm.

The notion of "beautiful," and "sexy" have been trashed by a mass media culture that defines, for most people, what "beautiful" and "sexy" are.

If you're going by nature -- hip-to-waist ratio, symmetry and to an extent, youth, are the natural biological attractors. So a young, woman (skinny or plumpy) with a good htw ratio, good symmetry is the perfect, idealized partner for mating.

So when did this model get transformed into a blonde, shaved-up, long-haired, perfumed and powdered doll, dressed up in a short, black skirt with fishnet stockings, who likes to wear spike heels to bed?

THAT's conditioning. And I think YOU and I BOTH know that that is the message being sent to women.

What is sexy? Why, let Victoria's Secret answer that for you: tall, stick thin, hairless and coiffed to the maximum -- and willing to frilly up in a doily so you can get hard?

The ideal of modern, American "beauty" is a caricature -- nothing more -- and one that is driven into your head OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AD FRICKIN' NAUSEUM until the porn, diet and cosmetics industry are the three of the biggest industries in the country.

And I don't know -- maybe "liberal" men, are just as succeptible. I'm sure many are.

The point is -- the same things we criticize from capitalism, shallowness, the pursuit of high-end goods, the homogonization of culture, etc. -- they are equally applicable to feminism and beauty.

As far as Edwards' daughter -- it's OK to say that you think she's pretty. Hell -- I've decided that if given the chance, in the last several days, that I would live in one of John Edwards' molars, for eternity.

But there is a difference, at the end of the day, between people who recognize many forms of attractiveness, respect them, get wowed by them for a moment, and then settle back down to the business of finding something more whole or transcending to dedicate one's time to, and people who seriously dropped anchor in the middle of the beauty myth and are living (both women and men) self-hating lives of despair and sadness, because they don't "measure up."

And how this translates directly to sexism, and institutional sexism is that MOST people, I would venture to guess, are variety two -- EVEN IF they are not that "attractive," and haven't had very "attractive" partners. It's just one big shit pile of obliviousness and lack of care to tending something greater than one's eeked-out in front of them.

And what it does, is that it AFFECTS the people who do care. That the people who are trying to live their lives according to some outside the mall world standard, are constantly ridiculed, rejected, called "feminazis," etc. -- which may be fine on a personal level -- people can think what they wish, and people can also learn to be happy outside the mainstream --, but when wages, rights, liberty, etc., ONE IN FIVE 9-year-old girls with anorexia, come into play. There is then, a discussion. And the discussion ain't pretty.

I suspect that those liberal "feminazi" guys and girls are the same people who decry all kinds of societal crap, and settle back in their IKEA chair, when it's all done, and flip through an issue of "wallpaper."

Different sheep. Same herder.

***edited to attempt to spell check. Spell check didn't work.

[RedEarth]

167. Well......I'm going to fire up some popcorn and go watch Big Brother

...I'll fire up two batches and pass some around when I get back. You all have fun....:)

[FredScuttle]

172. What's wrong with being sexy?

[Nikia]

192. I want to be judged on my merits not my body

I want to be seen as an intelligent, motivated, kind, open minded, and ethical/moral person. I find it disturbing that many men will judge me on my looks. Then they will only see me as a beautiful body or they will see me as an unattractive body not worth getting to know. I am already married so I don't speak of this in terms of a dating issue. I am speaking of this in terms of social interactions, career life, and other general interactions.

[FredScuttle]

212. The reference was tongue-in-cheek

There was a scene in Spinal Tap where one of the brain-dead musicians is defending a garden-variety misogynist album cover and exclaims "What's wrong with being sexy?" Someone has to clue him in that the cover is being called "sexist"

I have absolutely no personal opinion on the topic
(running out the door)

[Shakespeare]

197. That misses the point entirely.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with looking "sexy" or feminine. Having others define you only through that prism is where this society is so completely fucked up.

[slinkerwink]

204. I want to be judged by my intelligence, sense of humor, & as a human being

not on my sex appeal.

[OneTwentyoNine]

179. Yawn........Ho humm.....

[theoceansnerves]

180. it's because

this is "democratic underground." not "progressive underground." i run into the same anti-progressive ideals here with regards to animal rights.

[VolcanoJen]

184. Everybody who responds to this thread SUCKS.

Including ME.

Dammit... an exciting post-wake VeepLust day, and we choose to throw our support behing Senor Negative.

And so it goes... :eyes:

[slinkerwink]

188. way to minimize how we feel about sexism here

:eyes:

[Name removed]

198. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slinkerwink]

206. we have comedy classes at smith, and thanks for attacking me

[Name removed]

225. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slinkerwink]

231. what a great way to put down the fact I go to a women's college

[WillyBrandt]

234. Who said I was putting down Smith?

[slinkerwink]

240. you attacked my college, and called it "self-righteous"

so, a smart, well-educated women that goes to a women's college is that threatening to you?

[Name removed]

242. Deleted message

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[slinkerwink]

256. so my comments against sexism perpetrated against women are funny?

[Name removed]

272. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnLocke]

251. Well, it seems to me to be an attack on you, not your school.

[DancingBear]

236. Really - I would have never guessed

:) :)

[VolcanoJen]

201. Oh, stop it.

Slinkerwink, you should know me better than that. Don't even begin to accuse me of marginalizing sexism.

I'm just tired of the marginal bullshit. We have a real chance to change America ahead of us. So many posters have posted so many positive threads about the amazing women, Teresa and Elizabeth, on the ticket. Did you even read a single one of threads praising these women that I posted? Did you even bother, or are you part of the cycle?

Funny, isn't it? I can post a thread talking about Teresa, before a crowd of thousands, admonishing the non-existence of a single female on the ticket, but the rest of us choose to feed this thread, instead of responding to women who push us farther.

If you lot want to bitch about a handful of posters talking about Vanessa's relative "hotness" then go for it. I'm just attempting to point interested posters in a positive direction toward change.

I'm incredibly disappointed by your accusation.

[Logansquare]

207. Amen--Positive feminism! n/t

[slinkerwink]

211. what does positive feminism mean to you? not challenging sexism?

That's not real feminism.

[VolcanoJen]

230. thanks, Logansquare!

Why are feminists so divided? Is that an entirely different thread?

[slinkerwink]

209. oh, I just don't want to stop challenging others on sexism here

because if I stop challenging sexism here, I'm only encouraging it. :shrug:

I've worked for a Democratic campaign, and I've worked hard to help elect Democrats to office. It's just SO nice that you question my commitment to Democratic causes when I speak out against sexism here.

:eyes:

[VolcanoJen]

228. I didn't question your commitment; did I miss your response in the other..

.. threads, which I linked for the collective convenience, encouraging Teresa and Elizabeth to push on for womens rights?

slinkerwink, I respect you so very much, but I am incredibly discouraged that we WASTE OUR TIME discussing the veritable merits of male comments about the "hotness" of the relatives of our candidates, rather than discussing the merits of the two amazing women who will represent us AND PUSH US FORWARD.

I met Teresa yesterday. She moved me, and she is the future of feminism. I want to talk about HER. I want to talk about Elizabeth Edwards. I want to talk about THEIR MESSAGE. I don't want to talk about the lame male responses to their relative "hotness," or that of their offspring.

I'm telling you, Teresa rolled her eyes in disgust at the lack of a woman on the ticket yesterday. She's disappointed that America has yet to put a woman in such a position of leadership. She did so at her own peril, and she is ripe for attack from the right wing because of it. Doesn't that make her a feminist? Doesn't that make her message relevant? How come this thread gets hundreds of responses, but the many threads about Teresa get little response in comparison?

Why do we let men push our buttons so much?

Do you feel my frustration? Are we not on the same side??

[Taverner]

194. "Institutionalized sexism" was sexist "Edwards daughter is hot" was not

IMO...commenting on attractiveness is perfectly fine.

However the institutionalized sexism one was from that Paglia quote, and reading the full quote is nauseating.

[NightOwwl]

226. I think Edwards is hot!

Calling someone hot is not sexist. There are sexist, derogatory terms thrown around, but "hot" is not one of them.

[ronabop]

235. Dworkin is my idol.

I have just cut off my balls to mail to her. Should I pack them in ice, or dry them out like before jerky before sending?

Please advise.

[NMDemDist2]

252. Now THIS is a reason to be depressed IMO,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x673842

July 9 (Bloomberg) -- Afghan women are being targeted in attacks blamed on Taliban fighters trying to disrupt elections planned for September, the United Nations said.

Jean Arnault, the UN special envoy for Afghanistan, condemned yesterday's killing of a female electoral worker in a bomb attack in the eastern province of Nangarhar, the UN said in a statement. Two women helping prepare for the elections were killed near Jalalabad two weeks ago, in an attack claimed by the Taliban, which was ousted in 2001.

Afghan women were prevented from taking part in society under the Taliban, which took power in 1996. The militia's interpretation of Islamic law included banning women from working and stopping girls from attending school.

More than 6 million of Afghanistan's 10 million eligible voters have registered for the parliamentary and presidential elections, the UN said. They include 2.4 million women. The lack of security, shortage of international aid and slow voter registration may delay the polls, which have already been put back from June, UN officials have said.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000080&sid=a...

[wildeyed]

255. You're not off your rocker.

Most women don't mind if you say someone is hot. Most women don't mind BEING hot. Where it gets uncomfortable is when that is ALL that is being discussed. Example from my own experience- I am a rock climber. Most of the other people who I used to climb with were men, so I hung out with the guys. A lot. Anyway, we are discussing this elite female climber. And she is an amazing athlete; strong, bold and focused. All the guys are talking about is how attractive (or in this case, unattractive) she is. Nothing about her accomplishments as an athlete. And it was painful and offensive for me to listen to this conversation because reduced this amazing, complex human being ...to an object.

I have come around to this view of sexism in my daily life. I believe that some people need to make other people (add women, minorities, people from a different political party, whoever is 'other' here) feel small so they can feel big. But I am the only one who can decide whether I am actually going to feel small. If I don't feel small, they don't win. I dunno, living well is the best revenge, I guess.

[Longhorn]

266. Well said, Wildeyed! Welcome to DU! n/t

[taxidriver]

263. what are your opinions about pornography?

are these women liberated, or objectified?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

267. Okay, here's what the men don't get

There's nothing wrong with appreciating a member of the opposite sex. As a middle-aged single woman who is not currently seeing anyone, I actually appreciate getting appreciative looks from men out in public. (I'm talking about raised eyebrows and smiles, not leering "I'd rape you if I could get away with it" looks from young punks.)

However, that is an entirely different matter from what rene moon is talking about. The thread about Edwards' daughter seemed more like what happens in the typical "construction workers (or teenage boys) making crude comments about female passersby" situation.

Note that one guy by himself will usually not whistle or make obscene remarks or gestures about women passing by--it's almost always two or more of them together, and they try to outdo each other in being crude. (I've seen groups of boys who couldn't be older than 13 or 14 do this, including flashing pages from hardcore porno magazines at female passersby.)

When I realized this, I understood that it's not about the women who pass by. It's about the guyshowing off to one another about what cavemen they are. And it has nothing to do with the "appreciating" the woman, because I've seen women who are elderly, retarded, or physically unattractive get that treatment. I've also noticed that the one who is crude enough to get a reaction is "the winner."

So when you have a bunch of guys getting crude on a Lounge thread, I don't think of the nice-looking but regrettably married man who smiled at me in the grocery store. I think of brainless yahoos leaning against a building and telling random female passersby to--uh--perform various sexual acts on them.

[Fight_n_back]

277. Woman are the majority in this country

stick up for yourself. No one else will.

The beauty worship you see? That is on Cosmo and other women's magazines. Men care about things like nice smiles, good hugs and being treated with respect (and box scores and bitchin' wheels). Women are the ones obsessed with women's looks.

When women start dating men who have nothing going for them except a nice personality, then maybe you will have a point. When women value THEMSELVES as more than baby makers and sex symbols then you will have a point. When a woman can feel complete without the permission of a man then you won't need feminism.

Most men worship women...most men will act in whatever way will get them the most positive attention from women.

Are men jerks? If there was no supply then there would be no demand.

The problem with feminism is women undercutting it, not men.

When there were laws allowing men to beat and rape their wives, when laws forbade women from holding land deeds in their name, when laws forbade women from voting, then you had a point. Now it really is going to fall on deaf ears until you start treating yourselves with some respect and quit WAITING.

Politicians court the Labor vote (20% of workers) the African American vote (12% of Americans) the Latino vote, women comprise about 52% of the electorate. How is the problem men?

Stop defining yourself on how men see you. Stop doing that and men have no power.

Edwards is hot, his daughter is hot, Theresa Heinz is sexy as hell, Gore's daughter was outstanding. Chemistry is not sexism.

[anarchy1999]

284. 300 responses, amazing. I am just in awe and speechless. We have

nothing better to debate or to care about.

[NMDemDist2]

289. well sexism is right up there with racism, so the answer is no I guess

but i find very little sexism here, and most will backpedal quickly with much apology when called on it

IMHO, DUer's are mostly fine liberals and not homophobic, sexist or racist. But slips do happen and if the poster is reminded they will usually apologize.

IMHO again, calling come one "hot" is not sexist. But i will agree some of the Edwards' daughter post were just plain rude and inappropriate for this venue

now everybody :grouphug:


edit to change to the right candidate's name

[RetroLounge]

290. Yawn - Here we go again

with some of the usual suspects too...:silly::silly::silly:

I saw another message board basically die from these sexism threads, oh, and some of the same posters were there too. Pissed off everyone they could, whined and complained, then ran back here to DU.

Maybe some of them should get a little more therapy and fix their daddy issues. :think::think::think:

If I wanted to hear about this whiny-sexism-angry-feminism-boo-hoo-you-objectified-women-men-are-bad stuff I could always track down my ex-wife.:scared::scared::scared:

by the way, I am 43, married, 2 kids, one of which is my pretty blonde-haired blue-eyed daughter who is smart enough to handle herself without wanting to collect ball-sacs.

of course, now I just kicked this thread...

Well, it'll be locked soon enough...

RL

p.s. Edward's Daughter is way hot. But the Limo comment was innappropriate, but IMO not sexist.

[Moderator]

292. Locking.

Too many personal attacks and inflammatory posts.

I regret that this topic seems to generate so much uncivil behaviour.