Well, now the ULTIMATE GOAL of ANTI-CHOICE activists is REVEALED

[Walt Starr]

The END OF ALL CONTRACEPTION!!!!!

Access Denied

Find out why growing numbers of doctors and pharmacists across the US are refusing to prescribe or dispense birth control pills

by Caroline Bollinger

In April, Julee Lacey, 33, a Fort Worth, TX, mother of two, went to her local CVS drugstore for a last-minute Pill refill. She had been getting her prescription filled there for a year, so she was astonished when the pharmacist told her, "I personally don't believe in birth control and therefore I'm not going to fill your prescription." Lacey, an elementary school teacher, was shocked. "The pharmacist had no idea why I was even taking the Pill. I might have needed it for a medical condition."

Melissa Kelley, 35, was just as stunned when her gynecologist told her she would not renew her prescription for birth control pills last fall.

"She told me she couldn't in good faith prescribe the Pill anymore," says Kelley, who lives with her husband and son in Allentown, PA. Then the gynecologist told Kelley she wouldn't be able to get a new prescription from her family doctor, either. "She said my primary care physician was the one who helped her make the decision."

Lacey's pharmacist and Kelley's doctors are among hundreds, perhaps thousands, of physicians and pharmacists who now adhere to a controversial belief that birth control pills and other forms of hormonal contraception--including the skin patch, the vaginal ring, and progesterone injections--cause tens of thousands of "silent" abortions every year. Consequently, they are refusing to prescribe or dispense them.

<snip>

http://www.prevention.com/cda/feature2002/0,,s1-7342,00.html

This has been the goal of the anti-choice crowd from day one! The ultimate goal is to make contraception illegal.

Anybody falling for the crap of the anti-choicers are unwittingly supporting the end of contraception and the relegation of women to the role of BABY MACHINES!

Wake up, folks, we are on the cusp of a melded story between 1984 and The Handmaid's Tale.

[redqueen]

1. Hate to say this, but...

if doctors belive life starts at conception, then they really do have grounds to refuse to do that. Hippocratic oath 'n all. Pharmacists should be fired for not providing service to customers. They take no oath that I'm aware of, anyway.

However, doctors that *don't* subscribe to that notion, cannot be forced to stop prescribing it.

So this could be a good thing. All those pro-life fundie doctors should start losing many patients and many may end up having to find a new job.

[lukasahero]

2. Ooops. Never mind

just saw your link.

[Walt Starr]

4. I edited to add a link

Sorry

[lukasahero]

30. Thanks I thought

I was losing it. :)

This article is very disturbing. Thanks for posting it.

[kayell]

8. Most (all?) of those methods prevent conception from occuring

You are thinking of the morning after pill that prevents implantation.

How do you deal with the horrible loss of life of blastocysts in fertility clinics?

[redqueen]

9. The way they see it

A fertilized egg that is prevented from implanting is an abortion.

:shrug:

As for the blastocysts, I try not to think on that level too often.

[Scairp]

171. Uh...

Most oral contraceptives PREVENT OVULATION. So, for those of you who didn't pay attention in biology class, you might need to know that if there is no egg released to be fertilized by a sperm then no fertilized egg has been prevented from being implanted. K?

[tigereye]

45. what? So by this logic

not having sex could be in the same category, by not allowing sperm and egg to unite, therefore a child would not be conceived. Christ. What a load of bullshit. Last time I looked it was my business, not that of these folks to make my contraceptive choices for me!

[alfredo]

105. I guess I should cut off my hands.

signed Mr Onan.

[lanparty]

128. Actually, this is the position of the Catholic Church ...

You're supposed to "accept children from god". In other words, you're supposed to fuck like rabbits and have as many Catholic babies as you can.

This is the one policy that I think the church is so incredibly anti-ethical that I cannot bear it. They actively encourage people in third world nations with overpopulation to have as many children as possible. To them, "god will provide".

[NuttyFluffers]

170. exactly, it's a means of control

control oral sex, anal sex, masturbation, prostitution, sex out of marriage, contraception, and abortion and then you control people. sex is a universal drive that is undeniable. put enough shame, guilt, confusion around it and you have someone so tense and weak-minded they'll be your perfect pawn.

it's all about control.

and they can kiss my ass if they want to control me. being controlled by them is my vision of hell. i'd gladly accept their belief that i'm going to their hell to avoid my own living hell of being manipulated by them. and heck, their hell holds an additional benefit - wherever i am away from them and their all-judgemental and cruel god will be a heaven to me.

[kwolf68]

159. And let us not forget

The term "miscarriage" means the exact same thing as "abortion"...therefore, GOD is the biggest abortionist in the world.

[eaprez]

88. The IUD Doesn't prevent conception either.

[Virginian]

10. What?

The pill keeps a woman from ovulating. The sperm does not meet an egg and no fertilization occurs. There is no conception with the pill. That is why it is called Contraception.

I could understand if the woman has a history or family history of blood clots. The pill could cause her to die the way David Blume died. (No, I don't think the pill caused his death.)
The pill has been known to cause women over 35 to be more prone to blood clots in the legs which can dislodge and cause a potentially fatal pulmonary embolism. My healthy 48 year old sister-in-law almost died from this.

[redqueen]

12. Sure, that's what it's supposed to do

However, nothing is perfect, and oral contraceptives are no exception. Sometimes ovulation does occur. Not sure of how often it happens.

[kayell]

23. So what is your opinion of using contraception?

Just curious ya know?

Particularly since blastocysts are more developed by several cells than newly implanted eggs, yet you have no interest in the poor blastocysts.

[redqueen]

26. Don't get me started

Call me authoritarian (won't be the first time), but I think it should be MANDATORY until a person is ... well let's just say at least until they're of legal age. I'd really do more than that but don't want to get flamed *too* badly.

on edit: just saw the comment you added. I will respectfully ask that you not jump to conclusions and lump me in with these groups. Thank you.

[kayell]

35. Sorry about that. I've been a bit touchy lately. Shouldn't have assumed.

[redqueen]

44. Well with this gang in charge

I can really understand why. First the unnecessary ban on 'partial birth' abortions, now this crap... they're really not trying to hide their hatred of women, are they?

[kayell]

No, I feel like I have a target on me much of the time

and the crazed alleged liberal males here at DU with odd ideas of what does and doesn't constitute sexism haven't helped.

The Handmaid's Tale here we come....

[redqueen]

96. That thread bothered me

for two reasons:

1) That it was as bad as it was. I know I shouldn't be shocked at sexist liberals but some of the things said...
:wow:

2) That more male DUers didn't join in and voice their opinions... that almost frightens me.
:scared:

[kayell]

102. There seems to be a real tendency for the people who have the advantages

not to be able to perceive what their ownership of those advantages means if other people don't share the same priveleges. In fact it is difficult for them to even see that others don't have the same priveleges.

I expect better from liberals also, and am disappointed more often than I would like. Some of these "liberals" aren't of course, they are instigators and trolls, but some genuinely consider themselves liberal, but seem to have a HUGE blind spot on this issue.

The tendency of many males here to avoid supporting "womens issues" is amazing. I don't know whether they are afraid of being shamed by other males, or there really is this little support. I expect on the contraception issue only to have major support when the cost to a number of males personally in lost sex or child support costs becomes apparent, not because of the discrimination against women.

It gives me more appreciation for the males who are able to throw off the brainwashing and become actual caring people.

[Virginian]

68. Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA), another member of this gang.

This is from near the end of the article:

>>Federal and state legislators are quietly adopting similar views. US Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA), for example, does not support use of the Pill to prevent pregnancy, his staffers told Prevention. In March 2003, during a debate on the Senate floor that touched on emergency contraception, Santorum said, "I will not be supportive of covering medications that would lead to a fertilized egg not implanted in the uterus. I believe life begins at conception. I would not support drugs that would prevent a conceived embryo implanted." <<

Why is it that some insurance companies will pay for the recreational drug, Viagra, and not for the pill. It just seems like they should go hand in hand.

[lanparty]

130. Then Santorum should introduce legislation against fertilization clinics

Because they go through fertilized embryos like crazy. They make WAY MORE than they need in order to increase the odds of successfull fertilization.

Of course, that wouldn't do since watching infertile couples (especially wealthy ones who are children of the political donor class) makes for bad TV. It would be a nightmare if they had to resort to adopting an unwanted black, brown or yellow baby that they so wanted in this world by stopping abortions.

[mhr]

141. Well I will Lump You In With These Groups As Your Comments Appear

more sympathetic than reasoned.

Just calling the black kettle black as I see it.

[Virginian]

27. Back in the days

when I took "the pill" they said it was 99% effective, they did not say it would stop implantation for 1% of cases, they just said it would prevent ovulation. (At one point I remember paying $1.75 for a pack, but most of the time it was over $2.00. That was in the 1970's)

I did know a woman who claimed all her children were conceived while she was on "the pill". She had five.

From what I remember, the "morning after" pill was a much stronger dose than regular birth control pills. It's the progestin that prevents implantation, have they changed the formula?

If these people get their way, will fertility clinics all be shut down? I did read on a post on another board that the Bush twins came from a fertility treatment. The poster wondered if the right wing wanted to pray over the unused fertilized eggs. I just pray they never get used.

edited to add price increase text and progestin.

[redqueen]

31. I conceived on the pill

So I know it's possible. And yeah the morning after pill is more successful because of that stronger dose.

If these people get their way I don't want to live in this country anymore. I doubt they'd shut down fertility clinics, though. Defying God seems to be OK in that circumstance to these hypocrites.

I don't get how they can be so concerned with implanted eggs while foster children are being lost, abused, murdered, etc.

Idiots or morons or simply 'misguided' people... I don't have the patience to bother to wonder about their motivations. I consider them lost causes. I know people who call themselves 'pro-life' though that DO believe in contraception ... they need to be shown what the pro-life movement is really about. Most recoil after they learn. It's sad so many people know so little about who/what they're supporting.

[lanparty]

132. I agree, they want as many people in this world as possible ...

The more "proles" there are, the more they divide their power. More people means the value of THEIR Real Estate goes up. It means that THEIR AGRI-FARM factories will demand a much higher price for food. It means that more people will compete for fewer jobs. It means that the "proles" will be reduced to a de-facto state of slavery in a feudalistic world dominated by corporations.

[Cheswick2.0]

48. Women conceive on the pill when they use it wrong

and you would be surprised how many women use it wrong. If you miss a pill for two days, you must use another method of BC through you next cycle. If you take certain drugs (and most women have no idea of what they are)you must use another method through your next cycle.
Women make those mistakes all the time and then wonder why they are getting pregnant.

[redqueen]

53. Worse than that

If you don't take it the same time every day it lessens effectiveness.

I got a watch with an alarm after I found that out.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

55. that's not the ONLY way

using it wrong...yes, pregnancy is waiting for you...but sometimes it just plain doesn't work...ask me how I know and I will point you to a little bundle of joy :-)

theProdigal

[Mandate My Ass]

57. I never knew penicillin could render the pill ineffective

All through my childbearing years male docs prescribed antibiotics for me without ever asking me if I was on the pill.

I found this fact out reading Dear Abby when I was in my 30s. I then began seeing a female ob/gyn who set me straight on many such things including the fact that the IUD I had was never meant for use after 3-4 years and I had it for ten.

I had always used barrier methods but now I sometimes contemplate how many sinus infections and strep throats could have initiated a visit from the stork had I been on hormonal contraceptives.

[prodigal_green]

115. antibiotics

when was the last time a doctor or pharmacist told you antibiotics can wipe out the effectiveness of the pill? My friend, now the mother of a lovely 10 year old boy, was never told this...

http://www.bchealthguide.org/healthfiles/hfile38d.stm
http://www.mayoclinic.com/invoke.cfm?id=AN00099
http://www.drugstore.com/qxa1091_333181_sespider-do_antibiotics_interact_with_birth_control_pills.htm
http://www.fwhc.org/birth-control/thepill.htm

[Beaverhausen]

110. Some women- like me go on the pill to regulate their periods

this is bullshit.

[Andromeda]

154. Doctors have an obligation to

uphold the Hippocratic oath and do everything in their power to "do no harm."

If a woman who gets pregnant has a serious health problem that would be exacerbated by the pregnancy then the doctor has to do everything he can to preserve her life and well-being.

The debate of when life begins is an ethical or moral question and it has no place in science which is objective and takes no sides. Doctors have to put the patients welfare above their personal, religious beliefs and if they don't they should not be allowed to practice medicine.

This is a subject I have deep feelings about and the right-wing whackos can just kiss my ***. I will do what I need to do to protect my health and life and no fundie kook is going to tell me what to do with my body.

[Scairp]

172. I was reminded of something by your post

The acne drug, I think it's called Accutane, or something like that, has been linked to severe birth defects. If you are a woman of childbearing age and your doctor wants to put you on this drug, you MUST agree to be on the Pill. You have to go through pregnancy tests just before you start them and then again after you have been on them the required month for effectiveness, and after all that you can take the acne medication to clear up your severe acne. So, if some dimwit pharmacist who thinks his high moral values are more important than the health of patients, decides not fill a legal prescription for hormonal bc for an Accutane (?) patient, he or she could possibly be responsible for a miscarriage, abortion due to severe birth defects, or a born child with severe birth defects. These people and their gall never cease to amaze me. I wonder if I will ever live to see the day when our sex lives are truly our own business and no one else's. I have doubts.

[porphyrian]

3. The end of all non-reproductive sex is next. - n/t

[Cats Against Frist]

78. You're not shitting

I don't know where to put this article, but I think it loosely relates to this thread. It's called "Jesus Plus Nothing," from one of last year's Harpers. We often talk about the end goal for the women in the Cathlocrazy-Protestetaliban future -- but here's what it looks like for the men.

And notice -- it's not just GOP participating.

http://www.harpers.org/JesusPlusNothing.html?pg=1.htm

***edited to add the link that I forgot to add...:)

[redqueen]

98. "Cathlocrazy-Protestetaliban "

LOL! Love it! Thanks for adding a bit of levity to a tragically heavy subject.

[xxqqqzme]

106. Anyone w/ access to

HBO - watch 'Celibacy" when next U C it listed. Real eye opener that.

[Shopaholic]

125. It's also helpful to control acne

and there are other medical uses for the pill as well.

[Wind Dancer]

5. After what we have watched evolve

these past years, 1984 and The Handmaid's Tale are a real threat. This is one more example of attempted control on our rights. God help us!

[lilymidnite]

6. I read that article in Prevention . . .

last night. It made my stomach churn.

My feeling is that doctors and pharmacists should lose their licenses if they refuse to prescribe a legal drug.

What would happen if a doctor or pharmacist refused to prescribe/dispense anti-AIDS drugs because they don't agree with the sufferers' 'lifestyle choices'?

[TankLV]

7. Only the uninformed and idiots don't know this.

They don't like the idea of anyone enjoying sex for pleasure, period.

Those of us who make an effort to be knowledgeable on this have known it for years.

Thanx for publicizing it, tho.

Every littly bit helps.

[Malva Zebrina]

39. It is more the "woman" enjoying sex for the pleasure of it that disturbs

the prigs and prudes. Men , generally,and traditionally, are excused because, well because they are men who are rendered stupid by the woman. And it is men who rule in religion and in the congress. It all goes back to the bible and EVE. Anbd that is truly a stupid belief.

[Kool Kitty]

116. You're right, I think.

And I don't get this. Should we not even use contraception? We should just have baby after baby after baby, or just obstain from sex? This is nuts. This is the "Handmaid's Tale". But men get Viagra. Go figure.

[Love Bug]

11. Calling all hetero men who like to have sex!!!

Any of you old enough to remember what it was like BEFORE the pill? Remember when your girlfriend/wife wouldn't "put out" because she feared getting pregant? Wanna go back to the 50s? If this movement takes hold you all might as well erase the past 40 years and the sexual revolution! Go back to being frustrated, because that is where you are all headed!

Maybe, just maybe, that is what it will take for all of those "pro-life" men to finally realise they benefit from a woman's right to choose, too.

[redqueen]

15. Wow

What a brilliant idea! Can this sentiment be boiled down to the size of a bumper sticker?

[Love Bug]

36. Hmmm... let's see....

How about these:

"No Pill = No Sex"

or

"I won't share my cookies if you don't defend the bakery!"

[tigereye]

46. LOL

I won't share my cookies... there's a funny euphemism!

[redqueen]

47. "No Pill = NO SEX!"

I like it!

Maybe with a little line underneath... 'Enjoy recreational copulation? Then DEFEND REPRODUCTIVE CHOICE!'

[lanparty]

137. Condoms = Peace ...

An insatiated man is a peaceful man.

No glove ... no love

No love ... lots of war ;-)

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[supernova]

21. Your girlfriend is very brave

Woo Hoo! Good for her! Thanks for sharing your story. Does she still go to that pharmacy?

Welcome to DU Danj. :hi:

[redqueen]

24. Hi Danj!

Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[tkmorris]

<snort> <chortle>

Oh man, that's funny.

Oh and welcome to DU!

[livinginphotographs]

54. That's hilarious!

“I suppose I could have let my boyfriend PULL OUT all over me!!!! Would that have made Jesus happy?”

She sounds like a keeper.

[Avalon Sparks]

107. What a great post!!!!!

Who wouldn't admire her.

I would have been high fiving her, had I been there.

Thanks for the great story - Welcome to DU.

[lanparty]

138. Catholicism meets porno ...

They both like to pull out and cum on her face ;-)

[LeftHander]

14. Will run afoul of big Pharma...

Birth control pills are a cash cow for Glaxo and others. If groups organize and attempt to shut down the use of the pill we will see these groups feel the full $$$$$ weight of of the power and influence of big drug makers. Repuglicans like to be pro-life but they are as big pro-money too. Expect GOP to quickly move to stop this activity...

[lanparty]

139. Heck ... my understanding is ...

There is movement to take all the placebo pills and eliminate a woman's cycle altogether if she chose to. This would make men AND women across the country happy.

[Mandate My Ass]

16. They don't belong in the women's health field

if they feel contraception is immoral. Just as there is a seperation of church and state, there should be a seperation of church and medicine. Who do they think they are to impose permanent, life-altering decisions on others based on their own very skewed sense of right and wrong? Repeated pregnancy is hell on women. They are treating the potential fetus instead of the patient sitting right in front of them.

[Liberal Veteran]

28. Correction: They don't belong in the field PERIOD.

It's obvious to me these people believe their role in patient's health supercedes the wishes of the patient who is the ONLY person who should be making that decision?

What's next? Refusing to give category X (contraindicated in pregnant woman) drugs to women who are of childbearing age because they MIGHT become pregnant?

As a pharmacy technician, this shit pisses me off. It is not my job to make moral decisions for my customers.

[Mandate My Ass]

42. Point well taken

These people are dangerous with any authority whatsoever.

[Iris]

123. not in the same field, but remember when the Supreme Court

ruled on whether or not women of child-bearing age should be "allowed" to work in places like battery plants? Some companies wanted to ban women of child-bearing age from those jobs regardless of whether they were planning to have children or not.

This topic is exactly why I'm Pro-choice. Until I see a society that supports women in the capacity of child bearers rather than try to hold them down BECAUSE they are childbearers, I'm not interested in hearing any opinion most pro-lifers have to offer. I rarely see pro-lifers even here where I'd expect it give solutions about how society can make abortion less necessary.

[Selwynn]

17. Sue em. I'd love to see this in court.

[PragMantisT]

18. Doctors who stop prescribing drugs that the drug companies

pay them to prescribe will find themselves out of work, the country club, the marina, and sending their kids to state schools.

Good move. The fewer doctors the better.

[napi21]

19. Wonder what they say about voluntary sterilization?

Vasectomies, and tubal ligations?

I remember the "pill" was OK's when I was a senior in HS. I attended an all girl Catholic HS. Every day it was preached that you can't ever take those awful pills, it's against the Catholic religion.

What I didnt'expect to hear was that other religions are adopting this idea. It doesn't say in the article if this is the So. Baptists promoting this, but I really am surprised.

[Ducks In A Row]

20. Those pharmacists are liars in their own hearts

Because they would never refuse prescriptions for fertility treatments. These treatment also result in the "death" of embryos. They won't talk about the loss of embryos in fertility treatments.

The days these pharmacists stand against fertility treatments, then I'll believe they honestly stand for the "life"

Until then, they should be fired and the companies who refuse to fire them should be sued and/or heavily fined.

[Pillowbiter]

22. In the words of Monty Python, every sperm is good

Every time a male mastrubates he is needlessly sending millions of potential children to their deaths in a wad of kleenex.

Maybe we should start controlling the sexual activities of males like these and see how they like it.

PB

[kayell]

32. Well, God did kill Onan for using birth control to avoid getting his

widowed sister in law pregnant. (this was apparently his duty)

(He "spilled his seed" by pulling out! The horror, the horror)

Better hope those people who take all biblical law completely literally don't wind up in charge. It would be interesting though to see how they will deal with all the after church binges at the local Red Lobster and the fancy poly/cotton church dresses.

And now for the chorus:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

[Love Bug]

40. Slightly off-topic comment

I heard the writer Dorothy Parker had a parakeet named Onan because he always "spilled his seed on the ground."

:evilgrin:

[lanparty]

142. Does it disturb the church that ...

... every catholic priest spills his seed on a regular basis. It's not like you can stop it. It WILL go off all by itself if you don't pull the trigger ;-)

[lanparty]

140. Billions served !!!

ZERO impregnations !!!!

I liked Michael Moore's character from "lucky numbers". He was a dedicated christian who wanted to open an adult book store so people could masturbate instead of fornicate ;-)

[merh]

25. This brings to mind the novel "The Handmaiden Tale"

how creepy. This world is full of sick, evil people...

[supernova]

29. I've known this since learning about Randell Terry

His state goal was always not just an end to abortion, but also all forms of birth control. It's a way to control women really, is what it's about.

And it must be stopped. Period. No exceptions.

The refusal to sell BC pills. That makes me so mad I can hardly see straight!

[redqueen]

41. "It's a way to control women... "

I agree. I don't think this will go very far for several reasons already stated: big pharma has a financial stake, doctors who do this will lose patients, pharmacists will be sued, etc.

Plus I'd just loooooove to see this issue creep on over to fertility treatments. I'm tired of seeing women having litters of kids and then lauded and rewarded for it.

[PA Democrat]

33. Rick Man-on-Dog Santorum opposes the use of the pill- what a shock

that that sanctimonious piece of crap would like to take away a very safe and effective form of birth control.

Federal and state legislators are quietly adopting similar views. US Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA), for example, does not support use of the Pill to prevent pregnancy, his staffers told Prevention.

as quoted in the article you linked.

This is frightening.

[Joanne98]

34. I wonder how many black or hispanic women..........

Are having a problem. Just a thought..........

[Az]

37. Humanae Vitae

Signed by the Pope in 1968 it decreed the Vatican's position on birth control and abortion. The church was officially decreed to be in absolute opposition to both practices.

The church had wrestled with evolution. The church had wrestled with the center of the solar system. The church has wrestled with many issues such as these. But in each of these cases the church was defending an opinion. And the opinion of the church lead to a great deal of turmoil. People died because of the churches opinion. But eventually due to the force of science and social forces the church backed down and accepted these things as true.

But Humanae Vitae makes Abortion and Birth Control different. It is official church doctrine. It is backed by the authority of the Pope. Humanae Vitae is no opinion. It is the church. It cannot back away from this. It cannot let the social force generated by a nation as strong as the United States pull it off its foundations. It is for this reason that the Vatican has targeted the United States and its support of choice and contraceptives.

The Vatican knows full well that kind of force society can impose on it. Schisms of the past fill their history. If they do not change the US position on these matters they will be toppled. The Pope will lose all semblance of authority. It is a fight they cannot lose.

To this effect they initiated a program in 1975 to counter Roe V Wade. The American Bishops and Cardinals set about doing what they could to undermine support of Roe V Wade and change US law. They reached out to Protestants preachers such as Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. They showed them how they could use the abortion issue to win converts and raise money. They took to it like a fish to water.

The Vatican continues to pump their agenda into US politics. The need is no less now than it has ever been. Its the domino principle. If the US stands firm on choice then the rest of the world will fall.

[redqueen]

51. This is the most disgusting thing

Children starve in some countries because their ignorant parents do as the church says.

:grr:

[Az]

60. Poverty and the Vatican

Birth control is known to be one of the most effective tools in fighting poverty. And because of the fundimentalists attitudes towards this issue millions are made to suffer needlessly. To say this is a sore point for me is putting it mildly.

[lanparty]

144. Thats the point ...

If you load'em up with kids, you can keep them desparate. More proles for the fauxndies in control to exploit and violate.

[Alpha Wolf]

72. You couldn't be more wrong.

Don't assume everyone here disagrees with the Church's position on these matters.

Secondly, the notion of a infant little twerp of a nation like the United States-- which in the scheme of world history is little more than a blip-- is going to "topple" the 2000 year old Church is laughable. The U.S. will come and go while the Church but yawns. Read Chesterton's The Everlasting Man or some John Henry Newman for a little bigger perspective.

[reprobate]

109. Let me suggest an even larger perspective.

All mythologies fade (and I'm using the word mythology in it's classic sense) when they no longer speak to the basic fears and longings of a population. It has happened many times thru history. How many still worship Jove? YAHWEH was just one of the Babylonian gods in the court of B'al originaly. And why was Asherah, the wife of YAHWEH dropped completely from the lexicon? Religions change, die and are born as the world and society changes.

The fundamentalist christian movement is almost exclusively american. You will find little of it in the rest of the industrialized world. The EU just refused to mention christianity in their new constitution. Most of europe still has national memory of the horrors their ancestors lived thru when religion ruled their countries.

The same can be said of countries. They are born, mature, and die like everything else. This country now appears to be in decline as all others did before it. The Macroeconomic future is not bright. And the devolution to religion and gov't ties will only accelerate it's fall. This seems to be the fate of all empires. And the American Imperium has only lasted since the end of the cold war, tho I wouldn't argue with placing it's start at the end of WWII. Still, that's not very long for an empire, historicly.

We err if we believe that the perspective of a human lifetime has any meaning in the long term.

Remember, NOTHING LASTS FOREVER!

[lanparty]

147. American strength lies WITHOUT empire

The empire is what's weakening us. The international corporations that constitute the "empire" does not serve the citizen, they serve themselves and the elite executives that direct them.

Those very same executives are now emarking on a plan to dilute the power of nation states and put corporations DIRECTLY in control. It's not a secret conspiracy. It's called the World Trade Organization.

They've conned America into handing away their real strength. They've conned Americans into destroying the middle class, the foundation for Democracy. In return, they will get indentured servants overseas whoes explotation will eventually indenture us as well.

What does a vote mean when your starving and standing in a bread line? How can you register to vote when you live in a box? Roosevelt fought with the same conditions when the corporations still had a sense of nationalism. The corporations almost overthrew our government. We were VERY close to becoming a facist nation.

I think the United States can survive for THOUSANDS of years if it gets smart and becomes more liberal. If we treat foreign nations with respect and truly try to increase democracy in foreign nations. We must not trade with countries that abuse their population. Enriching the slavemaster does NOT help the slave. Purchasing the works of slaves only works to enslave yourself!!!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

157. Hey, the Catholic Church...

in the form of the Vatican is destroying itself all on its own, no help from the US needed.

And I say good riddance.

[lanparty]

143. Catholicism was a global empire at one point ...

... Catholics priests were deeply involved in politics and it hurt both parties. I think that the clergy is well aware of this and they really don't want to resume that role ever again. The church keeps getting more liberal as we go along.

The Southern Baptists by contrast have NEVER been in this role. They deeply crave the authority of the Ayatollahs. They just don't realize the level of corruption it brings to be a political AND spiritual organization.

[Susang]

38. They have a lot more goals than that

You just need to dig a little under the surface of their rhetoric. Which unfortunately, few people seem to be doing these days. :-(

[Eloriel]

43. Pro-Choice activists have known this forever, Walt. n/t

[Walt Starr]

52. Oh I've known about it all along!

It's just shocking that they're being so blatant about it now!

[lapislzi]

Why? Like...who's going to stop them?

They've got the three branches of government completely tamed. Can you just see Scalia's opinion on this one?

They are emboldened. I only hope their hubris brings them down.

[lanparty]

148. Once we take back Congress ...

Scalia will be impeached for his flagrant violation of the first amendment.

Rehnquist will be impeached for his role in the Ken Starr investigation.

Thomas will be impeached for being an incompetent moron.

[lapislzi]

149. I love dreamers

I do so want them to be right.

Meanwhile, back in the trenches...

[ibegurpard]

49. I've long said

and will say again that I believe many radical anti-abortion people object NOT to the idea of children being murdered but the idea of people escaping the wages of sin...those sins being extramarital sex and those wages being pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, et al.

[Virginian]

50. These women are approaching the "blood clot" age of 35.

Melissa Kelley, 35, was just as stunned when her gynecologist told her she would not renew her prescription for birth control pills last fall.

"She told me she couldn't in good faith prescribe the Pill anymore," says Kelley, who lives with her husband and son in Allentown, PA. Then the gynecologist told Kelley she wouldn't be able to get a new prescription from her family doctor, either. "She said my primary care physician was the one who helped her make the decision."

This may not have been a religious decision, it may have been to keep them from developing potentially fatal Deep Vein Thrombosis (DVT) -- especially if they smoked. It is not a good idea for women over 35 to take the pill. It can cause death by pulmonary embolism from a blood clot in the leg dislodging and traveling to the lung.
The second woman Melissa Kelley, is 35 the other woman is approaching that age.

[Walt Starr]

56. That's not the reason, read teh article

"Lacey's pharmacist and Kelley's doctors are among hundreds, perhaps thousands, of physicians and pharmacists who now adhere to a controversial belief that birth control pills and other forms of hormonal contraception--including the skin patch, the vaginal ring, and progesterone injections--cause tens of thousands of "silent" abortions every year. Consequently, they are refusing to prescribe or dispense them. "

[DaveSZ]

58. Read this:

It will give you some insight into these extremists' way of thinking:

http://www.solidarityinstitute.org/life/contracept.asp

Contraception

Artificial Contraception: Empty Promises, Trail of Tears

By Dr. Robin Bernhoft

PT Barnum loved to defraud the public. He organized his professional life around the motto, "there's a sucker born every minute." Barnum would have loved artificial contraception, for it has been a con-man's dream: contraception continues to rake in billions of dollars, year after year, without delivering on most of its promises.

A harsh statement? Think again. Think back to the early years of the birth control pill, forty years ago, when Harvard’s Dr. John Rock first introduced it. What did "the pill" promise? Sex without responsibility or consequences. Sex without pregnancy or children.

Men like Hugh Hefner welcomed the pill because it made more women available for their personal consumption. Feminists liked the pill because it promised women that they could "have it all" -- which meant they could have sex whenever they liked without babies interrupting their professional advancement.

The pill was supposed to make it possible for women to be equal to men in every way. It promised women they could be sexually promiscuous with no more personal consequences than are typically experienced by men. The pill was supposed to empower women to raise their horizons to gain them new levels or respect and dignity.

-more

[supernova]

62. Oh GOD! I wish I could rinse my mind with clorox

after reading that!! :puke:

But that's it in a nutshell. All about free sex and the bad thing of women being equal to men.

Narry a word about the health effects of having too many pregnancies, which was Margaret Sanger's contention. Everyday I take that pill I thank God for the life of Margaret Sanger.

[Cats Against Frist]

65. *brrrrrr*

Okay. My entire worldview has just been blown. I had assumed that around the birth of the Renaissance or so, that we had left the dark ages. Apparently not.

Even though the article talks about the "medical" aspects, mostly -- I seriously believe the real goal is to disempower women. This is truly scary.

So at what point in the Cathlocrazy-ProtestoTaliban timeline can we start applying for refugee status to other countries?

[lanparty]

150. Don't include Catholics in this ...

The inquisition is done and over with. It will never return.

The vatican itself is headquartered in the most liberal country in Europe ... ITALY!!!!! What influence has the holy of holies had on their neighbors ... NONE. Yet it is a strictly Catholic nation!!!!

ALL CATHOLICS ARE CAFETERIA CATHOLICS!!!! Being Catholic is like being Jewish. You're born into it. Thats what your family is. It doesn't decide what you believe in and you won't let some silly pontiff get in the way of your identity!!!!

Beyond this, the Catholic clergy know very well about the evils of past Catholic zealoutry in Europe. You'll find nary a Jesuit who would want to return to those days.

BTW, those southern evangilists still dislike Catholics. You won't find them together. Catholic clergy wear black frocks, not white sheets ;-)

[elehhhhna]

74. Free Viagra with every turned-down Pill prescription !!!

Now there's a Reep wet-dream!

[dorktv]

77. this article is inaccurate in several ways.

One:In a normal cycle, when the balance between estrogen and progesterone is just right, an egg ripens and bursts out of the ovary into one of the fallopian tube through which it descends toward the womb. If it meets a sperm within twelve hours or so, it is fertilized and becomes a unique genetic person. This new person continues to develop for a few days, then implants in the lining of the womb, from which he or she draws nutrition until birth.

Actually, it can take a day or so for a woman's egg to reach her fallopian tube, which is why one should never have sex for three to four days after they feel that midpain in the middle of their cycle.
Also implantation is when pregnancy begins because a lot of blastocysts never implant and the woman never becomes pregnant.

Two:Release of the egg from the ovary is called ovulation. The union of egg and sperm is called conception and the nesting of the developing person in the wall of the womb is called implantation. Pregnancy begins at conception, when egg and sperm unite to create a new person, genetically distinct from mother or father, with a unique immune identity. The mother’s immune system notices that a foreign person is present, within a day or two of conception, and attempts to reject the little cluster of cells. Normally, the developing person neutralizes the mother's immune rejection and they live in peace throughout pregnancy.

Live in peace? I have read too many reports to count of the fetus causing massive nausea, vomiting, gestational diabeties and many other medical problems for the mother. That is not peaceful in MY book. There are also lots of women who lose their fetus because the fetus has a blood type hostile to the woman.

ooops out of time...

[Virginian]

79. There are other good examples in the article,

Melissa Kelly is not one of them.

The 26 year old with painful cramps is a much better example and should have been placed in the opening instead of Melissa.

[fudge stripe cookays]

59. Ladies, seriously....

If you or your partner are not snipped, and do intend on having children, you better damned sure start buying condoms in BULK!!!!

I have been terrified after reading Gloria Feldt's book where she discusses this issue. These people will not stop until all our reproductive freedoms are gone.

They do not want unmarried women to have access to birth control or information about safe sex. But they have not said anything about allowing unmarried GUYS access to birth control.

Begin buying condoms by the case. It may be the only way to protect yourself and fight back.

FSC

[DaveSZ]

61. No,

The only way is to mobilize for Kerry to save the SC from the Fundies.

Bush says Clarence Thomas is his favorite justice, and Thomas was the only justice to vote against due process rights for American citizens.

[fudge stripe cookays]

76. Most of us are doing that already.

If this much lauded "revolution" does not occur because people are too lazy or too pre-occupied to take up arms against a corrupt government, there may be no other option.

Yes, condoms have expiration dates, but they can last for a little while.

[kayell]

66. Buying in bulk won't help for long, those things expire from old age

[Virginian]

84. And so does our fertility.

"Buying in bulk won't help for long, those things expire from old age"

Imagine if these nuts got their way and all birth control was outlawed what freedom menopause would bring to women. (If we got to live that long.)

There would be a lot of "loose" women in their 50's.
Suddenly, "mature" women would become sex symbols.

[kayell]

89. I was rather hoping a lot of bi women will decide to commit to lesbianism

But then again, since we'll all be sent to the "colonies", it probably won't be all that fun anyway.

[lanparty]

151. Hehe, try taking rubbers away from soldiers !!!!!

THAT will be the END of the fauxdamentalist cabal. I dare say the navy would anchor off Washington DC and start lobbing shells at the White House if they tried that tactic.


Military commanders have known for a LONG time that they're stoking up the testosterone flames in men. If they don't get some sexual relief there will be trouble.

General Thomas Hooker annunciated this belief very clearly and he invited sex workers into his camps. Hence the name ... HOOKERS!!!!!


Yeah, I'm sure that there would be some military commanders who would go along with taking the men's rubbers away. But I'm sure that bullets would pierce their backs pretty quickly ;-)

[LoZoccolo]

63. While I probably wouldn't patronize said pharmacists...

...I think you'd be hard-pressed to make a case that all these activists want to get rid of all forms of birth control when they single out specific ones for specific reasons, and the same article mentions that 95% of women use some form during their childbearing years.

[Alpha Wolf]

64. Sorry, but that's their right.

If they are morally opposed to abortifasceint contraceptives, why should they be forced to prescribe them? If someone doesn't like it, she can go to a different OBGYN.

I mean, should we be forced to do things we are morally opposed to?

[kayell]

67. You mean like pay my taxes for illegal wars? and * murdering

born babies?

[DaveSZ]

71. Didn't you get the talking points memo?

American babies and embryos are the only ones that matter.

Sincerely,

The National Right to Life of American Embryos Committee

[kayell]

92. Don't you mean white, well to do American babies and embryos?

Last I noticed, poor and brown babies and kids were SOL in this country once born.

Yeah, I got off of that meme memo. It gave me migraines.

[lanparty]

152. There is a progression ...

Empathy begins at conception.

Empathy ceases shortly after birth, unless it is a multiple birth from some fundie in-vitro wack job who ends up with 9 severley deformed and retarted children from refusal to do selective abortions (pruning). Makins such children is considered an act of "love".

Empathy starts up again when the child goes to college and joins the College Republicans.

[supernova]

69. If they are morally opposed to the pill

or other forms of birth control, they shouldn't be in the healthcare profession. Period.

As far as their rights go, I have an equal right to spread the news that they are anti-woman so my sisters won't patronize thier shops or practices.

Dark Ages, indeed.

[Liberal Veteran]

70. Shouldn't that be the PATIENT'S decision?

Ultimately, the doctor should not be making medical decisions on behalf of a patient.

That's a slippery slope that we don't want to go down. Should a doctor withold category X pharmaceuticals to women of childbearing age (which are contraindicated in women who are pregnant) because they MIGHT become pregnant at sometime?

Where does it stop?

On edit: What you are saying that a doctor should have a right to IMPOSE his own beliefs on a patient.

If the medication is FDA approved and woman has the need for the medication, the doctor is behaving irresponsibly by not providing it.

And doubly so for the pharmacists and pharmacy technicians.

[Walt Starr]

73. Answer to your question: Yes, in some cases

Pharmacists are FEDERALLY LICENSED to dispense drugs and doctors are FEDERALLY LICENSED to prescribe drugs, so yes, even if they have moral objections, they should either be forced to dispense and/or prescribe birth control that is legal, or LOSE THEIR LICENSE to dispense or prescribe.

It's that simple.

[lanparty]

153. Well the doctors don't have to prescribe it ...

But I think the Pharmacist is morally obliged to follow the doctor's written instructions (unless it's illegal (doctor shopping (Rush Limbaugh))).

[Mandate My Ass]

75. It's not their right

Not at all. They are to serve the patient's needs and wants as long as they are medically acceptable, legal and not harmful to the patient.

We shouldn't be forced to do things we are morally opposed to but they knew when they took that job that part of it entails honoring their patients' decisions and not their own narrow and questionable beliefs on the morality of BC.

Nice try.

[Alpha Wolf]

83. Wrong.

There is no "try" here. Medical doctors are not legally bound to perform abortions if they are morally opposed to them. On the same basis, they do not have to prescribe birth control if they are morally opposed to it.

This is simply a legal fact.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

93. Doctors are not required to perform any medical procedure

There is no law that can force a doctor to perform a medical procedure. Doctors have rights, too.

[Mandate My Ass]

94. Once again

Who said anything about performing a procedure?

[Liberal Veteran]

97. Writing a prescription is NOT a medical procedure. Let's take it further.

How about if I go to the doctor and he decides that he is morally opposed to antibiotics and I have an infection?

A doctor who doesn't prescribe the antibiotic should be sued for malpractice.

How about if the doctor was morally opposed to prescribing antivirals to those with HIV because he believed it was God's punishment?

Where do we draw the line at allowing a physician who puts his personal prejudices ahead of good sound medical practice?

[Pathwalker]

120. Or - how about a Dr. who is a Jehovah Witness, and against

BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS, and "someone is bleeding to death? Are they supposed to just roll over and die because it offends their belief systems???

Sure, it's an extreme example, but who wants to be THAT example?



MY BODY, MY CHOICE.

[iverglas]

167. c'mon; you've heard of the constitution?

It's a bit tricky, so hold onto your hat.

Medicine and pharmacy are self-governing professions. Society gives them the authority to decide who gets to practise the profession, what qualifications are required in order to practise the profession, and what sort of conduct will get someone expelled from the profession.

Society gives professionals these powers because of their special expertise, and requires that the powers be exercised in the public interest.

There are laws in our societies that prohibit people who provide services to the public from discriminating against customers/clients/patients on a number of grounds. Where I'm at, at least, those grounds include sex and religion.

A doctor who refuses to provide services to a woman because the services she wants, which are legal and which are recognized medical services to deal with matters that only medical professionals are permitted to deal with, and which the medical profession authorizes the provision of by its members, because they offend the doctor's religious beliefs, is violating anti-discrimination laws. (Read also "or pharmacist who refuses to dispense properly prescribed medications for which there is no contra-indication that the pharmacist has a professional duty to inquire into".)

In addition, the services that the woman is seeking are specific to women and to the health issues of women. The ability to control our reproductive functions is crucial to women's equal participation in all spheres of society. Women who are denied that ability are placed in an unequal position. Professionals who refuse to provide recognized medically appropriate, legal services to women and only women are discriminating against women.

Doctors and pharmacists who engage in this kind of behaviour should be brought before whatever civil/human rights tribunal is available, by every patient on whom they impose their loony vicious private rules.

But it goes farther than that.

The governing bodies of the professions (not, e.g., the American Medical Association, which is a voluntary association to promote doctors' own interests, but something like a state board of examiners, in Canada a "college") is acting as an agent of the state when it exercises its statutory powers to restrict admission to the profession, regulate the conduct of its members and bar members from practising.

If it permits its members to deny services for discriminatory reasons, it is permitting them to violate both the law and the profession's ethics (which, you can be sure, do not permit discrimination by doctors who just don't like people of colour and refuse to treat them, for instance).

As an agent of the state, the governing body's decisions are subject to judicial review. (They are here, and I can't imagine they would not be in the US.) A doctor who was denied a license to practice because *s/he* was a woman or person of colour ... or fundamentalist christian ... would have the governing body in court in a heartbeat.

Why should a patient who was denied service because she is a woman, or *not* a fundamentalist christian, not be able to do the same thing? First, complain to the governing body of the medical profession, of course -- and if there's no joy forthcoming, take the bastards to court.

If their rules permit that kind of discrimination, their rules are a violation of the rights in that 14th amendment to the US constitution:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Where a doctor denies a woman medical services for discriminatory reasons, and the professional body, on behalf of the state, permits that denial, it is denying that woman the equal protection of the laws that require non-discriminatory provision of services.

Just exactly as if the cop on the corner refused to come to your aid because you were a person of colour, or a fundamentalist christian, and the police service failed to require that its employees stop discriminating in the provision of services.

Who else but women is ever expected to put up with this kind of shit? Who else but women would ever be told that the conscience, or morals, or religion, of a member of a group that provides a service that the state requires she obtain from that group prevail over her right to the equal protection of the law?

What *does* make the conscience, or morals, or religion, of some loony vicious doctor or pharmacist more important than *her* rights, but not more important than the rights of someone in need of a blood transfusion who encounters a JoHo doctor, or a person of colour in need of cough syrup who encounters a racist pharmacist?? Racists have scruples too, you know.

If these people don't like doing what the medical profession and only the medical profession (or pharmacists and only pharmacists) are empowered by law to do, then they should find other jobs.

We don't even say to people looking to buy a sandwich that if the local lunch counter doesn't want to serve, say, Buddhists, because the owner has a firm and genuine religious conviction that Buddhists are agents of Satan, they're free to go find another lunch counter somewhere else that will serve them.

A lot of women don't have a lot of choice when it comes to finding a doctor or pharmacist. They may be in small communities, they may be tied to certain providers by their insurance company or HMO. They may need emergency contraception and have a small window of time in which to get it. They may be completely unable to obtain a legal, recognized-appropriate medical service, or fill a legal prescription, because the source they have no option but to try to obtain it from is a loony vicious asshole.

Now I'm not saying that anybody with these alleged scruples is a loony vicious asshole. I'm saying that anybody who advances them as justification for denying women legal, appropriate medical services is a loony vicious asshole.

Doctors do indeed have rights. And those rights include the right to leave the profession if they don't like the rules.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mandate My Ass]

108. I know how to read

and I also know how to spot BS when I see it.

Your "comparison" was not valid. And no, it is not a "fact" that a doctor can withhold commonly acceptable medical treatment based on their pseudo morality. State legislatures are passing conscientious objector bills to protect these loser assholes because they know they don't have a legal leg to stand on.

Chill out, yourself.

[Andromeda]

146. I guess when your argument has no substance...

you resort to insults. Taking birth control pills is not a "procedure."

If a doctor prescribes a medication, and that includes birth control pills, the pharmacist has no right to refuse to fill it. The pharmacist does not have a license to practice medicine and arbitrarily taking it upon themselves to refuse to fill a prescription violates the law because in effect the pharmacist is practicing medicine without a license. In addiction, the pharmacist's beliefs do not supercede patients rights if that patient has a valid prescripion written by a licensed medical doctor.

Patient's rights can supercede a doctor's personal beliefs in most states. If a doctor specifically says they will not prescribe birth controls pills because of personal, religious reasons then they have no business practicing medicine.

Birth control pills are multi-purpose and contraception is only one function. Some women need them for health reasons. In some cases, woman take the pills for reasons of life and death.

[lapislzi]

81. At the risk of descending the slippery slope

If your convictions are that strong, then you need to consider strongly the professional decisions you will be faced with in a given line of work.

If you have strong ideas about restricting women's reproductive rights, then maybe gynecology is not for you! If you don't approve of alcohol, don't be a bartender! But for the love of Christmas don't homilize me from behind the bar because I choose to have a beer.

I don't give a rat's ass what these doctors' and pharmacists' good intentions are. Their right to express them ends exactly where my right to have my medically approved prescription filled begins.

[Bridget Burke]

82. Then they need to post signs!

In the MDs' waiting rooms: "No birth control pills prescribed." The doctors mentioned in this article apparently made a switcheroo.

At the drug stores: "No birth control pills dispensed." Perhaps not all their pharmacists are of that belief, but women don't know who will be on duty when they need to fill the prescription. (& let the drugstores cleanse themselves of all questionable items while they're at it. Lubricant, makeup--in Texas, some big drugstores even sell beer!)

That way, the women can take their business elsewhere, although it will cause hardship for some of them. Even we women who are past it would be glad to avoid these doctors & drugstores.

[noiretextatique]

99. they are health-care providers, not ministers

their first obligation is to they're patients. if they are too moral to do that, they should become ministers instead.

[Swamp Rat]

80. I am fucking sick and tired of fundies and "pro-lifers" telling Americans

how to live! I wish we had retro-active abortion...

To all you ladies out there that want control of your bodies and freedom of choice, I'm 100% behind you and will march with you until the end of time. The rest can just fuck off.

[supernova]

85. Thank you Swamp-Rat

These assholes aren't getting anywhere near my beautiful body nor my medicine cabinet.

There are some women who have other conditions which make it dangerous for them to get pregnant carry a child, diabetes and congenital heart disease are just two.

Oh well, I guess those women should just not ever have sex then.

[Swamp Rat]

156. I'm a hardcore feminist... though I'm a guy.

;-)

[lapislzi]

86. Love those bumper stickers: "Smile! Your mom chose life!"

..."wish yours hadn't"...(my standard muttered riposte)

[Pachamama]

163. Thanks Swamp Rodent! Guess those same Docs have no problem...

...prescribing Viagra?

Your one of the good guys...glad we have you....:hi:

[Swamp Rat]

166. Brigado cara!

abraço :hug:

[Beacho]

90. Vote with your feet

And take all your health care business alsewhere. Also inform other patients of the doctor and convince them to do the same.

[RebelYell]

91. My blood is boiling

A. Rick Santorum and GWB are two loads their mothers should have taken in their mouths

B. The RW fundies want more cannon fodder

C. Don't they read their own Bible? (Thou Shall Not Judge)

I chose not to have children and was sterilized by a Planned Parenthood surgeon at age 25. My gyno was Catholic and refused to do it, because I was unmarried and without children. This topic has been important to me ever since.

I apologize if I've offended anyone with my rant.

[westsidexview]

100. according to this "logic"

how could you determine between a period and a natural spontaneous abortion. would you have to sell tampons with a little casket to put "the deceased" in? this is a clear case of a scarey convergence of politics, religion, and schizophrenia.

[noiretextatique]

101. maybe they'll advocate putting cameras up there

that way they can arrest all those awful, murderous women having spontaneous abortions. these folks are MISOGYNISTS, pure and simple...it's the glue the holds the movement together.

[westsidexview]

104. i think the "pro life" tactic is a ruse

with the 2 prong attack of abortion and giving the "wrong" elements as many vote denying criminal records as possible. by de-stuffing the ballot box, the right can force it's 'us for and no more' policies down the throats of the silent majority. philosophically, freepers don't give a damn about the other 99% of the world. so why the concern about the unborn when the second she is born they go back to not giving a damn.

[Liberal Veteran]

103. For those who say Doctors and Pharmacists should have this right.

Let me ask you this:

If I am in an accident and need emergency surgery, should the only at the hospital able to perform the surgery be able to say no, he won't treat me because I have HIV? How about if I am black?

Where we do we draw the line at allowing practicing physicians licensed by the state to impose their beliefs on as patients?

[noiretextatique]

113. excellent question

thank you for asking it...it really clarifies the issue.

[Bushfire]

111. Seems like a thread for this pic...angry yet?

vote these enemies of the Truth & CHOICE out, please...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1950698

[powergirl]

112. DO YOU THINK THESE WACKOS SUPPORT BANNING VIAGRA????

Just askin' :evilgrin:

Of course not, because VIAGRA is for a MAN, BABY. And these responsible men will only use their viagra skills for procreatin'

losers

[HallowsEve]

114. This is a good place to start

Of course not, because VIAGRA is for a MAN, BABY.

eh. I am a MAN and I really despise being pidgeonholed with these bastards. The point is CONTROL, not CONTROL OF WOMEN.

[powergirl]

117. Sadly, the Republican party has got the rap of being sexist

Pro choice women view any measures to control reproductive rights as a clear affront to Women's rights. And I know my assertion above is well founded because when Bush took office, he (The Repulicans - is probably more accurate) attempted to prevent insurance companies from being required to pay for WOMEN'S birth control. However, VIAGRA was absolutely required to be covered. Of course this created an uproar - even among Repulican women. If you don't think this is a man controlling women problem - look at the picture at the beginning of this thread with Bush surrounded by the fellow white male supporters of the "partial birth" abortion ban law.

You better not be a freeper

[HallowsEve]

121. HAHAHAHA what's a freeper??

anyway, the picture thing is exactly my own "personal" problem. The fact that these disgusting REPTILES choose to don white-man-skin is causing big problems and scary encounters to those of us actually BORN with white skin and a penis (no more foreskin of course, thanks to involuntary plastic surgery). Anyhow, I may just be sensitive, but I feel a lot of hostility aimed towards ME and people who LOOK like me because "those who would control us" look like me...is this a small problem??

[Iris]

134. And you haven't even touched what he did to the Family & Medical Leave Act

There's a great editorial by Molly Ivens in the Editorial section of this forum. Check it out, but I warn you, you will get even angrier.

[powergirl]

119. dupe -sorry

[lanparty]

155. I don't think this is a feminist issue ...

This is a humanist issue. It think they'd vote to keep Viagra legal because those people like anything that will result in more prole babies.

[Bread and Circus]

118. It's true. Part of the "agenda" of many is to get rid of birth control.

It's weird because I think part of the advancement of
a civilization is directly related to the ability of women
to time or avoid childbirth.

[HallowsEve]

122. of course...there are many options outside of meds

When not being hunted down and burned as "witches", there were many women, and their externally-genitaliad counterparts, who knew EXACTLY how to time and avoid and even END an existing pregnancy naturally and without health risks to the woman. Anyone who has used herbs and natural methods to deal with other physical issues knows that not only are they effective, but can be extremely beneficial in ways pharms could only DREAM. This information has been ridiculed and repressed out of existence until the last 30-40 years or so. RECLAIM THIS KNOWLEDGE IF YOU WANT FREEDOM FROM THE MED SYSTEM!!

I HIGHLY SUGGEST that anyone and everyone reaquaint themselves with natural healing and preventative medicine through herbs and foods. There are MAJOR bills on the horizon that soon will make using these blessings difficult (through regulation and standardization). The 1970's was NOT the first decade that women were liberated, it's just common history will not tell you about it.

[Warren DeMontague]

124. I've been saying for months, years...

to everyone who will listen, that:

The so-called "Human Life Amendment" as written and advocated in the GOP National Platform would criminalize many forms of birth control, including the pill, by defining life as universally beginning at conception and receiving- from that moment of conception- protections under the 14th amendment.

Most major "Pro-life" Groups in the USA are, universally, opposed to contraception. Many voters who consider themselves "pro-life" are not aware of this fact.

The widespread opposition to contraception, and anti-contraception agenda, is a tremendous wedge issue against anti-choicers, which is why they go to great lengths, at times, to conceal this part of their belief system to "swing voters", using red herring issues like so-called "partial birth abortion", instead.

If you delve deeply into the legal "thought" papers of the anti-choice crowd, it doesn't take long to figure out that the real judicial goal is not just the overturning of Roe v. Wade, but also the overturning of Griswold v. Connecticut, the 1966 Decision that a) said married couples had a right to use contraception, and b) established the "right to privacy" that conservatives hate so much.

[Shopaholic]

126. Let 'em

There are a lot of folks out there who vote GOP right now who would convert overnight to our side if they're IUD's, BCP's and other forms of birth control were taken away from them. I'm telling you I don't think that the great majority of people understands how dangerous back-alley abortions were and what that time was like for many women. But if their birth control pills were banned, a lot of them would suddenly realize that the repugs are not female friendly or family friendly as they claim pretty quickly.

[HallowsEve]

129. With Black Cohosh and Pennyroyal...

and some information on how much to use, back-alley abortions ought not even exist. There are so many herbal abortants, I could not begin to list them. Prevention without meds is a bit trickier, but Dr. Bronner (of Dr. Bronners soap) has an herbal recipe for a mild contraceptive douche for use after sex...

[Warren DeMontague]

131. Dr. Bronner Makes A Mean Soap

And the peppermint kind doubles as a relatively eco-friendly insecticide, but I wouldn't trust him to keep anyone from getting pregnant..

ALL-ONE! ALL-ONE! EXCEPTIONS ETERNALLY? ABSOLUTE NONE!

[lanparty]

127. Grounds for taking away medical licenses!!!!!

Doctors make their medical decisions based on science, not religion!!!!

Doctors who refuse to prescribe birth control for "religious" reasons need to be brought to account by their professional associations. Refusing for a legitamite scientific based concern for the health of their patients is fine. What they are doing is unethical for a medical doctor.

[iverglas]

133. YES!! "Controversial BELIEF"!

I am so glad to see that being said, because I've been saying if for a long time. And I've been disgusted to see how many rational, pro-rights people and organizations seem to have rolled over and played dead on this one.

It is a THEORY that these contraceptive methods CAN prevent implantation.

However, the INTENDED purpose of the medications is to prevent OVULATION.

And they have been DEMONSTRATED to prevent ovulation. To my knowledge, they have NOT been demonstrated to prevent implantation.

The situations in which -- even as the theory goes -- they could prevent implantation would be

- (in the case of regular-use contraceptives and emergency contraception) IF the contraceptive failed to prevent ovulation AND the ovum that was released was fertilized; and
- (in the case of emergency contraception) IF the contraceptive was taken after ovulation had occurred AND the ovum that had been released was fertilized.

When a woman uses any of these measures and they DO work as they are INTENDED to work and as they NORMALLY work, she WILL NOT OVULATE -- and so there will be NO fertilized egg to be implanted or prevented from implanting.

There are a whole bloody lot of things in this world that MIGHT prevent a fertilized ovum from implanting in the uterus -- IF, of course, there is a fertilized ovum present -- or even cause an implanted ovum, or zygote or embryo or fetus, to be expelled.

Shall we allow business operators to refuse to rent horses to all women of child-bearing age who wish to go horsebackriding, or deny all women of child-bearing age access to buildings with staircases, because IF they have a fertilized ovum in their body it MIGHT be dislodged IF they fall??

This is abominable, and there is no way in the world that a governing body of any profession involved (medicine, pharmacy) could, in any good faith, either fall for it or approve it.

Besides being total junk science, it is the most crass discrimination against women seeking services they have a right to obtain from the people licensed to provide them -- that is, services provided by people that the government allows to police themselves, the self-governing professions in question.

If the professions aren't going to stand up to these misogynist bullies and tell them to stuff their phoney scruples in one of their own orifices, governments should override them and legislate an end to the totally unacceptable practice of denying women the health care they are entitled to.

Nobody's "beliefs" are a proper basis for denying someone else the ability to exercise her RIGHTS.

[Warren DeMontague]

135. Rather than debating whether or not the pill

"Can" prevent implantation, which it allegedly can, maybe someone should look deeply at the Ludicrosity (is that a word?) that inevitably follows when you grant a micron-sized fertilized egg human status by legislative fiat.

[Warren DeMontague]

136. Here's A Fun Link:

http://www.geocities.com/preconceivedbabies/

[iverglas]

161. and another one!

http://www.geocities.com/cryin4myangel/

Make sure to get out your hankies before you click, and don't miss the link to why menstruation is a sin, where you can sign the guestbook.

[Kool Kitty]

164. OMFG.

I feel bad for that poor woman. She thinks menstruation is a sin. Oh, and did you notice that she threw in that all-purpose, fundy favorite rallying cry: God hates fags. Sick, sick, sick.

[iverglas]

168. kitty ...

Go back to the site, and try squinting when you read it maybe. ;)

Allow me to quote a little, and imagine the word parody (shh) superimposed over it all.

Then one day the unthinkable
happened. I started bleeding, and
I knew my baby was lost, before
she had even been conceived. I
wasn't prepared to lose my child
like this, through menstruation.
How could it be happening to me?
It had always been something that
happened to "the other person." I
simply could not believe that
after all my hoping and praying,
my child, still only an egg, was
taken from me.

(No copyright issues; I've got general consent. In fact, the author may be among us as I speak. ;) -- not I, I hasten to add; I don't know nuthin' bout html.)

Now of course ... maybe you were just doing an excellent job of reacting in character and foolin' even moi.

[Kool Kitty]

169. Oh, boy.

What a dope I am. I should know better. This is a parody site, but I am a genuine dunce. Gak. :freak: :dunce:

[David Zephyr]

145. Kick!

Thanks Walt.

[AmyDeLune]

158. Kick! n/t

:)

[bleedingheart]

160. Barefoot and Pregnant...

that is their goal.

Women are vessels for bearing children in the eyes of the repukes and they view them as just sexual objects that produce heirs...

[AmyDeLune]

162. Kick!!

:)

[nolabels]

165. Just one more good reason not to be religious about anything

Religious View of Shit


Taoism Shit happens, so flow with it.
Confucianism Confucius says, "Shit happens."
Buddhism If shit happens, it isn't really shit.
Zen What is the sound of shit happening?
Hinduism This shit happened before.
Islam If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.
Protestantism Let shit happen to someone else.
Catholicism If shit happens, you deserve it.
Baptist We'll wash the shit right off you.
Judaism Why does shit always happen to us.
Agnosticism What is this shit?
Atheism I don't believe this shit.
Rastafarianism Hey, this is good shit, mon.
Christian Science If shit happens it will clean itself up.
Mormonism Our shit is cleaner than your shit.
Hare Krishna Shit happens, Ramma Ramma!
Jehovah's Witnesses Let me in your house so I can tell you why shit happens
(snip)
http://www.d.umn.edu/~mohs0025/funny/shit.html