For fellow gays and lesbians considering leaving the USA if FMA passes

[Brian_Expat]

The UK has a "highly skilled migrant" visa that allows you to work in your field in the UK. After five years here, you can claim citizenship. Current processing time is only about three months, versus two years for Canada.

You have to pass a points test for income and for employment factors/qualifications, but if you look at the criteria and think you pass, you should file an application now. By the time FMA passes the Senate (if it does pass), you can be on your way to Britain.

Information at:

http://www.workingintheuk.gov.uk/working_in_the_uk/en/homepage/schemes_and_programmes/hsmp.html

Don't feel bad about coming here if the FMA passes. It is NOT "giving up" or "unpatriotic" to leave a country that has voted to eliminate your civil rights. It's called SURVIVAL and anybody in our situation would do the same thing, including slaves who fled to Canada and Jews who left occupied Europe.

[Gore1FL]

1. It won't pass

They can't even com close to stealing enough votes to get it ratified. The issue is one of politics, and not one of substance. The proposed marriage nonsense is little more than red meat to the closed-minded right-wing GOP dumbshits.

[radfringe]

3. FMA is a distraction

First let me state for the record - I'm a lesbian - my partner (of 7 years) and I had a Unity Ceremony last year, although not legally recognized - we recognize it as a committment.

ok - back to the FMA and amendment process...

Historically, it takes years for legislation to be ratified - this involves each state legislature debating the proposed amendment. So it's not going to happen in the next few months. (Sidenote: the Equal Rights Amendment passed in Congress in 1972 only has 35 states ratifying it)

Congress will be on summer recess in a couple of weeks -- September and October many members of congress will be more focused on their own re-election campaigns.

There ain't enough time for Congress to shove this through before November election.

Given the problems that bush* has on his plate -- bringing up the FMA at this time is clearly a distraction, furthermore it serves only to increase the divisions that already exist. it couldn't be clearer that bush* has no intention to unite - only to divide.

[jukes]

7. radfringe

i agree completely. besides a distraction, the matter is being used to pacify the extremist RW fundie fringe & insure they're votes.

they've been pouting because the admin hasn't disenfranchised abortion yet, the ludicrous attempt @ a constitutional amendment targeting gays wd never pass the popular vote, even if it reached that staged; hence, it's a placebo for the crazies.


i certainly understand the fear & outrage in the gay community; liberal straights supportive of gay marriage feel the same anger.

our fear is from an extrapolative sense; we fear for our gay friends, & fear what might come next.

[radfringe]

13. we fear it too

but we can't run and hide

[jukes]

33. apsitively, radfringe

we must all have the courage of our convictions, or eventually there will be no place to run.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. The thing my gay and lesbian friends need to fear

is hate crimes, where innocent people are beaten or even killed just because of their sexual orientation. But as in the Matthew Shepard case, the goons who perpetrate the crimes are not allowed to get away with it.

[kayell]

5. In some well publicized cases like Shephards the perps pay, but in many

or most, it either isn't classed as a hate crime, or the police don't push very hard because the victim was queer, or like in a recent TN case, the perp got 1 yr for a savage beating murder because of mitigating circumstances - ie, despite his long conversation with the vic in a gay bar, he was horribly afraid of homosexuals and over reacted.

or were you being sarcastic?

[kayell]

4. Thank you for the information

Do you know if there is much need in Britain for horticulturists, or are they oversupplied already there?

[Kanary]

6. Survival? Really?

Civil rights for *everyone* is VERY important.

But, marriage rights is *survival*?

Right now there are cuts to Section 8 housing being passed, and many other cuts to the safety net will be coming down in the near future. It is getting next to *zilch* attention, and people will die because of it, and it will likely not even be reported. Those deaths won't mean *anything*.

These people don't have choices..... they can't leave the country, they don't have advocates fighting effectively for them. Where they used to be an important part of the Democratic Party, they are no longer considered.

Are other countries going to start recognizing these people as refugees in need of protection?

The horrendous things coming down in this country is happening in part because we have allowed ourselves to become fragmented. Unless/until we all start caring for one another, and take up each other's causes, this targetting of "special groups" will continue, and escalate.

Haven't we learned *anything* from Germany?

Kanary

[undergroundpanther]

8. Kanary

You are SO on the mark!

America is fragmented and because we compete against each other to win,to be successful,we never look back.

And so the poor,the less successful are blamed for their setbacks told to again yank the bootstraps,and to move along.

Someday I hope it will dawn on people that the way the 'sucessful'people care for the poor,women, kids is a big indicator of a societies mental health and a civilizations ability to survive hard times.

Poverty is not parasitic on others, as much as obscene wealth is.

And sometimes things that cause poverty in people are the same things that allow a few to succeed.

[kayell]

10. One thing I learned from Germany is that the oppression and genocide of

the Jews did not start immediately in 1933 with gassing and ovens. There was a nice slow build up of demonization for years before that.

You are absolutely right that gays aren't the only was who are being victimized by the BFEE, but does that mean we should sacrifice ourselves if it looks like we will be the next to go up in smoke? How will that help the other victims?

No one is saying don't vote. Brian is keeping us informed of an escape route if we need one. I for one am very glad to know of it.

(Incidentally, I may be one who can't afford the escape route - but at least I can do whatever is possible to prepare)

[OKNancy]

11. We are not Nazi Germany

and gays and lesbians are not going to go to any ovens. There is a great divide out there, but in our culture, gays and lesbians are more and more accepted. The right wing can't fight the overwhelming cultural movement in the last ten years. Just look at popular culture and the acceptance that gays have on so many levels.

Certainly, keep up the fight politically, but there is no great movement to do to the glbt community what was done to the Jews.

[kayell]

14. We are not Nazi Germany, BUT there are many elements in common

with the lead up to what happened there, and I intend to keep a close eye on developments. It COULD happen here. It wouldn't take much, since many of the repressive measures are already here, just waiting to be used to their fullest extent.

In 2000 could you have imagined our country illegally invading another country, establishing concentration camps, torturing prisoners, having the right to find out what you read at the library.....etc, etc, etc......

Germany 1933 didn't look much like what you think of as Nazi Germany either, and most Jews stayed, because they couldn't imagine something like that happening there either.

[OKNancy]

15. I just don't agree

If you feel threatened, then you have to do what you feel is best, but I see things as really changing in a good way for gays and lesbians, despite this stupid ploy about the constitutional amendment.

Look at these links. All of these are from Tulsa, Oklahoma.


http://www.outintulsa.com/

http://www.tohr.org/

http://www.tohr.org/events/DC2004/dcmain.htm

http://www.gayandlesbianfund.org/tulsa/

http://www.dykedivine.com/

http://www.gayly.com/news.asp
( this one is really funny to us Oklahomans, as the daily paper in OKC is the Daily Oklahoman...They named their newspaper the Gayly Oklahoman)

[kayell]

21. Things ARE going better for gays in many ways - that is why we are seeing

a backlash. We are not far enough into the safe zone yet that we could not be turned into the symbols of all the RW hates. They are trying to do so. They are trying hard to turn back the tables on women, and they could accomplish both.

I am definately not ready to be complacent - that to me is the lesson most valuable from nazi germany - not to assume that it can't happen. To assume that because we have a democratic tradition, it couldn't happen here is like believing * and Ashcroft when they say they won't use the Patriot Act for nefarious purposes, yet it is written in a way that it can obviously be used to severely restrict our rights.

Added: I think we are talking at cross purposes. I think you are seeing me as saying "Doom is upon us. Run away", when I am trying to say that there is potential here for fascism, and it is good to know of options if things do not go well. I am actually far more concerned if Bushco steals/wins/cancels? the election than I am about the FMA, since I don't really think it has the votes.

On the other hand, I am VERY concerned about the FMA as another move in the Repuke strategy to create a demon class here at home. This is the McCarthy strategy of seeing communists under every bed, if you prefer that to Nazi comparisons.

Added a bit more: Incidentally, I was not the originator of the Nazi comparison, I responded to a question on whether we had learned any thing from Germany.

[Kanary]

38. So, it's getting better, you're doing fine, thankyou, and don't need

other people to join with your struggle?

I'm very frustrated that I said something important about working together, and caring about each other, and it has been totally bypassed.

This is why I see so little hope.

Kanary

[Eric J in MN]

19. a year ago, the Supreme Court ruled that states can't

A year ago, the Supreme Court ruled that states can't prosecute consenting adults for homosexual acts.

To say the US is about to start treating gay people like the Nazis did ignores the big picture.

[PeaceForever]

23. I'm not sure that's true anymore about gays being accepted in our culture

Remember the 1990s? First there was the movie Philadelphia. Then came an avalanche of things like that Seinfeld episode where they said, "I'm not gay, not that there's anything wrong with that."

But today, it just doesn't seem like popular culture promotes acceptance of gays anymore. Sure, there's Queer Eye, but there doesn't seem like much else. I wonder if there's a study on this somewhere?

Also--and I acknowledge that this is totally unscientific--I know from personal experience that, at least among men that I've come across, there seems to have been an explosion of homophobia over the past couple of years. I have a lot of effeminate mannerisms and get mistaken for gay a lot. It's insane how much I run across guys who, believing I'm gay, want to start fights with me. A few years ago, that would NEVER happen.

[NewJerseyDem]

24. Well, polls show most people ages 18-30 support gay marriage

However, most older people oppose it. I think that shows how younger people are much more tolerant than older people. So, that shows that people who are growing up now, or grew up recently, are now much more tolerant and that is a good sign for the future.

[PeaceForever]

26. I hope you're right. n/t

[OKNancy]

30. Pop Culture

I can think of tons of television shows since you mentioned Queer Eye. You probably don't watch the Home and Garden Channel and decorating shows like I do ( lol ) but there are many gays on those shows, also Six Feet Under, Ellen, AbFab, gay people win a lot on reality shows, and of course, Will and Grace.

Did you check out the links in my other posts. When you can have a gay pride parade in Tulsa Oklahoma with no problems, then time are a'changin'.

This thing with the amendment is a political ploy because they are afraid of the changes they see going on. They want to stop it, but they can't. They are doing this out of fear.

[Kanary]

37. I'm continually amazed at the lack of actual comprehension of words on DU

Can you please tell me WHERE in *my* post you read anything about "not voting"?

It's so frustrating when people don't actually read the words, and respond to what they assume was there.

Please, what I said was something that is VerY important to me..... would you please reread it, and communicate iwth me about what I said?

NOthing of any value is going to happen in this country until/unless we put down our defenses and come together and WORK for the good of *everyone*.

Kanary

[Eric J in MN]

18. I agree with Kanary.

I support gay marriage, but comparing the possible passage of a Constitutional amendment against it to the Holocaust is way off base.

The poor have it much worse under Bush's policies than gay people who aren't poor (of course some people are both poor and gay.)

[PeaceForever]

25. The real issue is that there's a homophobic climate in the US

The Constitutional ban on gay marriage is a symptom of a deep-rooted, reactionary homophobia that seems to have taken root over the past couple years.

I bet there are plenty of people in the US who wouldn't mind seeing gays sent to concentration camps, and their numbers are growing.

[Eric J in MN]

29. The trend is towards greater tolerance.

There weren't shows like "Ellen" or "Will and Grace" 20 years ago.

The Supreme Court ruled that states COULD prosecute consenting adults for homosexual acts 20 years ago, and recently reversed itself.

The fact that gay marriage was ruled required by the Mass. court is another sign of tolerance.

[Kanary]

39. That's the only "real" issue?

Homophobia is the only problem?

Gay people are the only ones suffering?

Amazing.

Kanary

[Brian_Expat]

31. Yes, it is survival

Civil rights for *everyone* is VERY important.

But, marriage rights is *survival*?

Yes, families are units designed to help the members survive, and gay families are no different.

Further, efforts like the proposed amendment usually signal a descent into absolute predation against those targeted in the law. First it's "marriage," then employment, then voting rights, etc.

[Kanary]

40. No, it's NOT "survival"

I repeat..... it's important, as are all civil rights.

But to ignore the very real survival issues of those who are not gay is NOT strengthening your cause. Not having the right to marry is a drag, and stooooopid, and must be changed. But, it's certainly not the same as being on the street, going without any kind of medical care, and not having enough to eat.

You are NOT creating change by cutting off those who are suffering, and saying you're the only one with problems in this society.

Setting yourself apart in this way is a great way to shoot yourself in the foot.

Kanary

[bigbillhaywood]

35. Kanary, thank you for once again providing a realistic working-class

analysis of the issues.

[Kanary]

41. Thanks for the support! Not just working class, but nonworking class

There are so many who, because of illness, etc, aren't even able to work. The hopelessness of the situation is overwhelming.

I'm not feeling very hopeful that those on the outskirts of society are going to come together for their common good any time soon. This whole scenario of arguing about who has it worse is not only ridiculous, but exactly what the Reich Wing wants us to do..... it succeeeds in fracturing us, and keeping us down.

Our complicity in our own oppression is fatal.

Kanary, who appreciates every word of support!

[Deja Q]

9. I'm stuck here. So are many others. There is a better solution...

Oh well.

Good luck to those who decide to leave and can.

With luck I'll be able to seek asylum, but death is tolerable at this point anyway. :-)

Besides, within a few years, there will be no place to escape TO. Realize that and we can all survive and prosper within our own countries without fear.

At what point do we allow our cowardice to take us over?

[Obamarama]

12. Deleted by author

[tedzbear]

16. The Democrats won't stall the FMA in the Senate Wednesday...

They will let it pass without a fight. Makes me so mad I may permanently defect from the Democratic party and vote Green in November. If the Democrats no longer stand for civil rights, then why vote for them?

The two party system in this country is no longer in opposition. The Democrats have moved so far to the right they are aiding the Repugs instead of fighting them.

:kick:

[NewJerseyDem]

22. They will defeat it

The Senate Democrats are firmly against the amendment and will defeat it along with many republicans who oppose the amendment as well.

[Zen]

17. Fareed Zakaria pointed out that this was an old Republican trick

from the 1980's and it wouldn't work now. They are just trying in their miserable rotten way to divide our country and some how benefit from that. I don't think we can be any more divided so this is a pathetic attempt.

I do think that EVERY SINGLE Democrat (except Zell Miller) should BOYCOTT any vote on this stupid amendment. The 'Pukes want to get them on the record so they can use their vote as a weapon during their reelection campaigns. Very, very cynical, very very Republican - they have no conscience.

[Eric J in MN]

20. Has Fareed Zakaria changed from a conservative to a liberal

Has Fareed Zakaria changed from a conservative to a liberal recently?

[Zen]

42. In no way do I consider Fareed to be political, and he always takes

on issues VERY intelligently (he seems to know more about the Middle East than anyone) and almost inevitably his view is opposite of what the Bushievics would want to hear. I consider him the authority on Middle East issues and will ALWAYS consider his viewpoint even if I disagree with what he is saying.

[arwalden]

27. If I Escaped The United States...

I'd choose from the following:

New Zealand
Australia
Canada
United Kingdom
The Netherlands

[kayell]

28. Those are pretty much my preferences too, but not sure about what it would

take to get in. I know I'm qualified for Canada, but last I checked, not for NZ. How well can a English only speaker function in The Netherlands?

[sweetheart]

32. same 'ere... i've moved to the UK

and i'm in the UK now. New Zealand is too far away from anywhere
else where my economics life exists.... Australia, similarly...
canada is too much under the thumb of the US... leaving the uk.

I'm not gay, but just as bad in repuke eyes, "buddhist" and as they
make over the country to be christian-imperialist-prodestant
crusader nation of assholes.... i'm out.

That all said, the UK is really 2 countries in the UK... london, and
"not london". London is like new york, a city of a gazillion
languages where most of the local folks have left... I live in
"not london". There, the remaining people of the UK who are not
inundated with immigrants and political operators from abroad are
trying to sustain their peaceful way of life. "London" is defined
as anything south of manchester... Every single part of the island
south of manchester.

"the north" as they put it, pays less well, and is much more
culturally paranoid about immigrants.... and you may be happier in
the long run in canada... take it from a 6 year UK resident... the
locals are not happy to hear an american accent, and its getting
worse not better. Blair's internationalism only exists in a
square 10 miles around buckingham palace... the rest of the place
is nothing like what the media portrays.... rather it is a mixing
pot of every single national culture on earth, and they don't mix
happily these days when britain is on the wrong side of the coin
given blair's incredibly poor judgement to support the american
right and their crimes.

[terrya]

34. Thanks, Bri. But I can go to Canada as well...

Doug can sponsor me if I move up to Canada. All it would take, I understand, is for us to be married. :-)

How are you, Bri?

Terry

[MidwestMomma]

36. I understand if people want or need to leave

But it makes me sad to think of the great people we would be losing. :-(