Delaying the election will NOT extend Bush's term

[Dookus]

by one hour. The XX amendment to the constitution clearly defines when the President's term ends. The constitution also requires elections be held before then.

Calm down.

[Political_Junkie]

1. Thank you, Dookus,

for that dose of common sense!

[Malva Zebrina]

2. The same document t also says that only Congress can declare war.

You tell me :shrug:

[Prodemsouth]

3. Thank you Marianne

For a dose of reality.

[Dookus]

4. Obviously a much more ambiguous area....

Not all military actions require a declaration of war, the War Powers Act gives the President (too much) power to use troops, and people argue that the IRW was enough of a congressional declaration.

There's no ambiguity about the 20th amendment.

[Malva Zebrina]

57. War Powers Act

looks good on paper but obviously a tyrant like Bush can find ways to abuse it especially when all three branches supposed to provide a checks and balances to offset tyranny or abuses, are Republicans on his side--

Anyone else, Senator, or Representative on either side of the aisle, who wishes to play the blame game, avoid responsibility for the most serious undertaking any country can embark upon, war, can also abuse the War )Powers Act. All it has done in this case, is nothing. The Democrats are weakened further, and the Republicans look like fools who rushed in where angels fear to tread to pledgae allegiance to a dope, now that the mess of Iraq invasion is slowly being revealed for what it was and what it continues to be.

Who is to say that this Republican Congress and it's weak Democrat opposition, cannot think up some creative other resolution or Act to allow Bush to cancel elections? They can do this.

I think it very possible. I put nothing past these psychopaths. They will do anything to hold on to their power.

[Dookus]

62. NO

they CANNOT cancel elections. Nobody is even discussing cancelling elections.

They're talking about POSTPONING the elections in the event that significant numbers of people are unable to vote on election day.

The president's term will end on January 20th, 2005 no matter what. I honestly don't see what's wrong with having a plan to reschedule the election in case large numbers of people are unable to vote on November 2nd. In fact, it's the responsible thing to do.

[Individualist]

14. and it guarantees freedom of assembly

Think free speech zones.

[Dookus]

16. ok

so all anybody wants to do is argue that because some broad area of the constitution has been interpreted to your dislike, that "noon on January 20th" is just as vague.

Nonsense.

The President's term will end on January 20th of 2005. At noon, to be exact.

[Individualist]

18. broad area?

Freedom of assembly is important to me, as are all freedoms guaranteed by the constitution.

[Dookus]

21. don't pick a side fight...

the fact is, there have been various court decisions and precedents regarding a lot of the first amendment rights. I'm not defending them - I'm just saying that they exist.

That has NOTHING to do with the date and time specified by the constitution for a President's term ending, which is clear and unambiguous.

[TomNickell]

44. Dookus is right.

In real-world situations, broad statements of rights -require- interpretation.

Noon, January 20, 2005 does not require interpretation. There is no legal figleaf they can use to extend the term.

[TrustingDog]

31. I hear ya, let's no rely on what is thought reliable.

sour times.

[Bandit]

66. But war has not been declared.

No more so than the war on poverty or the war on drugs. It is all symantics.

[Manix]

5. CNN just reported there is talk in congress to amend it...scary!!

[Still_Loves_John]

6. But they couldn't amend it that fast

So even if they are seriously considering it, they're looking at the long term.

[Dookus]

7. I haven't heard of any attempt to amend the constitution...

to change the President's term of office. I've heard about legislative approaches to change election day if significant numbers of people are unable to vote on Nov. 2nd.

No amendment to the constitution will be approved by both houses of congress and 3/4ths of the states before November.

[bowens43]

8. Maybe , maybe not (maybe I'm wrong, I hope so)

The Constitution does NOT specify when elections will occur.

In fact there is nothing in the Constitution that requires a vote by the people to take place. All that is required is for the electors to vote. How the electors are selected is up to each state.

Only Senators are required by the Constitution to be elected by the people.


From the Constitution:

Article II

The Congress may determine the Time of chusing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.

Nor does the Constitution prohibit anyone from serving longer then two terms. It does prohibit someone from being ELECTED to more then two terms.

[Dookus]

10. But that's always been true

regardless of when elections are held. The states themselves decide how they choose electors, and I don't know of any state that allows that to be done without holding an election.

[TomNickell]

42. Thanks for the note of sanity...

For some folks that will never make a dent, of course.

[lumpy]

19. Franklin Roosevelt was elected

to a third term because we were at war, if you recall. Why, because we were in an all-out war. Although this is vaguely related, anything is possible and you can be sure Bush will try anything to delay ousting him from office. The fact that Homeland Security has been handed power to trample on some of our rights of privacy and other abuses should tell us all something. Handing such power to the executive in such a large degree is flirting with fascism.

[playahata1]

52. The difference between 1940 and now, however,

is that there was NO LIMIT to how many terms a President can serve. The 22nd Amendment was not ratified until 1951.

[WoodrowFan]

74. well, no

He was elected to a third term in 1940 a little over ayear BEFORE we got into the war, and both he and Wilkie campaigned on trying to keep the US out. Besides, there was no Constitutional provision against a Third term in 1940, that's why FDR could win a third term and TR could campaign for one in 1912.

[trogdor]

68. The effective max is ten years.

Since 1951, if you take over more than two years of someone else's term in office, you only get one more, otherwise, you get two. (Amendment XXII)

Senators have only been elected by popular vote since 1913 (Amendment XVII), while Representatives have been elected by popular vote (or what passed as such) since the First Congress.

Interestingly, Amendment XXII, Section 3. provides for the following in cases such as that in 2000 with Bush v. Gore:

If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.

So, if Bush v. Gore had not been resolved by Jan 20th, Congress would decide who would act as President until deliberations were completed. Thus, the urgency by which they rendered the decision did not really exist. I'm really surprised NONE of the nine Supreme Court justices, who are supposed to be THE expert authority on the U.S. Constitution, nor the counsel appointed by the Gore campaign, didn't pick up on this.

Of course, I didn't pick up on it either, but I'm neither an attorney nor a Supreme Court justice. So there.

[Minstrel Boy]

9. And what chance did Tommy Franks give the constitution

for surviving a WMD attack?

According to his Cigar Afficionado interview, the attack wouldn't even need to be on American soil to precipitate the abandonment of the constitution.

From the NewsMax redaction:

Franks then offered "in a practical sense" what he thinks would happen in the aftermath of such an attack.

"It means the potential of a weapon of mass destruction and a terrorist, massive, casualty-producing event somewhere in the Western world – it may be in the United States of America – that causes our population to question our own Constitution and to begin to militarize our country in order to avoid a repeat of another mass, casualty-producing event. Which in fact, then begins to unravel the fabric of our Constitution. Two steps, very, very important."
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/11/20/185048.shtml

[Andromeda]

51. Newsmax is a right-wing rag...

and not to be used as reference material on DU. Read the rules.

[Minstrel Boy]

56. I know what Newsmax is,

and I know the rules.

Cigar Afficionado isn't online. That it was picked up by Newsmax doesn't make it less real. Franks' remarks are ligit.

[MyshkinCommaPrince]

11. Same limit for Cheney?

I can't dredge up the URL, because I'm not search-enabled, but I recall reading, a few days ago, a comment that the limits you refer to specify the President, but not the Vice President. And Boosh mentioned this last week that Cheney was quite prepared to be President.... So would the current Admin have this time limit, or just the pRes?

[Dookus]

13. Yes, the Vice President's term ends the same day

However... there ARE some situations in which Cheney could become President (if for some reason the President-elect and Vice-president elect are both disqualified from taking office).

Section 1. The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January, and the terms of Senators and Representatives at noon on the 3d day of January, of the years in which such terms would have ended if this article had not been ratified; and the terms of their successors shall then begin.


Section 2. The Congress shall assemble at least once in every year, and such meeting shall begin at noon on the 3d day of January, unless they shall by law appoint a different day.


Section 3. If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.


Section 4. The Congress may by law provide for the case of the death of any of the persons from whom the House of Representatives may choose a President whenever the right of choice shall have devolved upon them, and for the case of the death of any of the persons from whom the Senate may choose a Vice President whenever the right of choice shall have devolved upon them.

[lastknowngood]

12. It also says we are free from unreasonable search and seizer

the constitution and bill of rights mean nothing to these assholes.

[Dookus]

15. Again

you're dealing with over 200 years of laws, court decisions, and other factors.

There's nothing ambiguous about Noon on January 20th.

[Malva Zebrina]

58. dookus--it can be changed

the arguments here are not side issues. They prove that nothing is written in stone--including that date. I would like to think that all the laws re the Consitution will be followed exactly as written, at such and such a time, and on such and such a day also In ordinary times with sane people running things, it might be a comfort to be so certain of this predictable, thereby comforting, event.

These are not ordinary times.

We have a fascist tyrant in office, who has capitalized on the fears of the people, consistently, with the use of propaganda that would put Goebbels to shame, and always at times when it appears he is losing ground or there is some damaging news that he wishes to take off the front page. He will do anything to stay in power, beginning from day one when his buddies in the SC stopped all the votes from being counted. Surely that is the best example of attempts to interfere with the state's ability to manage the voting process.

All of what we have seen come to pass over these past agonizing three and half years, tells us that Bush cares not a jot or a tittle for the Constitution or the people of the country. He has gotten away with treason , and laughs behind our backs. He cares not a jot or a tittle for any treaty,the UN, or any type of agreements that do not meet his own laws, which he makes up as he goes along.

[Dookus]

63. I'm sorry, Marianne...

it's a false analogy to compare an interpretation, say, of the right to peacefully assemble vs. an interpretation of "January 20th at noon". There simply is no alternate interpretation of a date and time.

I understand what you're saying. These people aren't trustworthy. But neither are they all-powerful.

The president's term will end on January 20th at noon.

[Malva Zebrina]

75. I kind of like the Marianna name LOL

Maybe I will change it.

OK, I have five bucks that say that Bush might get away with it. Are you on?

[mopinko]

17. whatever you think the probablitiy is,

please comment on this thread about what we should do IF they try.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1970674&mesg_id=1971320&page=

[Dookus]

20. I can see many instances

where they SHOULD postpone the elections, so I doubt I'd be upset if they did it for reasons I understood.

[mitchtv]

49. postpone yeah, a week of two,

I would think that , in event of emrgencies, that the polls stay open for a longer period, to enable affected areas to set up again if necessary.

[Goldmund]

22. Phew, you're right.

Bush will be gone, and we'll all rejoice when Hastert assumes the presidency...

[Dookus]

23. It's not hard to understand:

elections WILL be held before January 20th. They have to be. Bush's term will expire on January 20th at noon. It has to.

[Goldmund]

59. I agree

as long as the constitution is the principal legal authority.

[gemlake]

24. Who would enforce it?

If the bush* administration refused to leave, who would give the order to send in troops and remove them with force? Would you go to the steps of the White House and read the Constitution to them? Good luck.

[Dookus]

25. So you believe

that elections will be held, Bush will lose, but he will refuse to vacate the White House?

[gemlake]

30. No, elections will be delayed

And he will refuse to leave the White House. Yes, it sounds outrageous, but then again, so is hiring thugs to beat up vote counters.

Do I think it will happen? No. But to quote the Constitution, as if that settles the matter, is extremely naive. The bush* administration has constantly shown utter disrespect for the law.

[Dookus]

33. you don't understand

elections cannot be delayed past January 20th.

[gemlake]

34. And again--who will enforce that rule? n/t

[Dookus]

35. ok you win...

you're right. he'll lose the election, and refuse to vacate the white house, and nobody will mind. Jesus fucking christ.... :eyes:

[AntiCoup2K4]

38. I believe that a so called "terrorist attack" is just as likely after ....

...the election as before. In fact, given the amount of publicity the story is getting, it would be a better strategy, on the part of the Bush Criminal Empire, to let the elections proceed, and assuming Kerry/Edwards win, allow everybody to let their guard down and proceed with the holidays (Big money for the corporations, naturally).

Then, on New Years Eve, disaster strikes. Martial law is declared with 20 days left in the Bush Jr pResidency. You think they would lift it after 3 weeks?

[Dookus]

40. OMFG...

even if they declare martial law, Bush's term ends on January 20th, 2005 at noon.

End of story.

[banana republican]

I think a lot of people would go elephant hunting if

the elections were canceled.

dubya wouldn gain anything.

[banana republican]

26. I think a lot of people would go elephant hunting if

the elections were canceled.

dubya wouldn gain anything.

[Seth Gecko]

27. When did the constitution start to matter again?

Last I checked, invading and occupying countries isn't allowed in there, so I don't think the rule of law means shit anymore.

[Dookus]

29. why not read the whole thread?

before making the same lame argument everybody else has made.

There are countless "conditions" placed on first amendment rights, as well as the war-levying powers of the President and Congress.

There is NOTHING ambiguous about the XXth amendment to the constitution. There is NO other way to read "noon at January 20th".

[TomNickell]

41. OK. So Bush issues an edict abolishing the month of January..../nt

[Dookus]

47. oooh... you....

why I oughtta... :P

[LoZoccolo]

28. That kind-of has to do with what happened in 2000.

The rationale for cancelling the recount was because a certain deadline had passed. They delayed the recount with tactics including force by having people storm a courtroom and then it was "well oooops, looks like it's too late".

[Dookus]

32. yes

but the deadline, I believe was one of Florida law regarding the certification of the election.

There is nothing ambiguous about the date and time a president's term ends. There's no wiggle room.

[Freya]

36. I'm glad you made this thread

People seem think a delay would mean bush is going to stay in office with out being elected.

If it was delayed by congress he'll be on his knees begging that elections be held before he's thrown out of the white house in january.

[Dookus]

39. I know, Freya, but it's a losing battle, I can tell...

no amount of explanation will satisfy anybody. This is going to replace the "Wes Clark for SecDef!" non-issue for the next 4 months.

[sundancekid]

43. take comfort, Dookus, "there are none so blind as those who will not see"

I got your point just fine, at the same time that I understand the rule of law skepticism applicable to the Busheviks. These are paradoxical and dialectic issues, not more BLIND either/or and black/white type of thinking that got our beloved U.S. here (dubya times) in the first place.

[troublemaker]

37. From CNN (Hope we've said our prayers!)

"The department wants to know about the possibility of granting emergency power to the newly created U.S. Election Assistance Commission, authority that Roehrkasse said was requested by DeForest B. Soaries Jr., the commission's chairman. Soaries, who was appointed by President Bush, is a former New Jersey secretary of state and senior pastor of the 7,000-member First Baptist Church of Lincoln Gardens in Somerset, New Jersey."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/11/election.day.delay/index.html

[Wednesdays]

45. All Dubya needs is a small window of opportunity

He doesn't need to have the election postponed past January 20th.

This is one frightening scenario, and to me the one with the highest likelihood of occuring...the exact dates might be different, but you'll see what I'm getting at...

Saturday, October 30. Something terrible occurs, perhaps a nuke or something is detonated in a city. Whatever it is, it is horrid and completely stuns the nation. Families crowd around their TVs, with tears in their eyes. People on the street wring their hands, watching the grim news. No one even DARES suggest that the government has failed in its pledge of keeping the people safe...that would be disrespectful to the victims to be "playing politics" at this time. Besides, no one is paying any attention to politics while the nation grieves for the victims.

Sunday, October 31. Churches are flooded past capacity as people try to find refuge for their grief. The whole nation is gripped in fear and people go on "panic buying" binges. Halloween activities are canceled all over the country, as parents are too frightened to send their children outside. In the evening, Bush addresses the nation, saying that "we are all the children of God, and that this terrible act has turned the nation to God." The pundits all agree the speech is a triumph for Bush, because he "succeeded in uniting all Americans." Within hours, even minutes, word comes out that the attack was planned by Al Qaiada, and the news channels flash pictures of the suspects.

Monday, November 1. Congress meets in emergency session. This takes place in a secret location, of course, for security reasons. They come out urging the President to use his powers under the Patriot Act to postpone the election. The media is told that Bush initially rejects the idea, but then after much persuasion, he finally issued the decree. A few Democrats complain about the idea, but are quickly shouted down in the media as "unpatriotic." Finally, John Kerry gives a press conference, saying he fully supports the President, and urges all Americans--even Democrats--to do the same. The election is re-scheduled for Tuesday, November 16. Until then, "code red" is in place, meaning no one could travel outside their home without purpose. But that's okay, everyone is too scared to go outside anyway.

Tuesday, November 2. "Election Day" passes quietly, as people stay home because of the curfew. Meanwhile, the major networks have 24/7 coverage of the "war on terror," and re-play Bush's "comforting words to the nation" about twice per hour on average. They also show Bush hugging some of the relatives of the victims, as a grieving nation looks on.

Monday, November 8. Polls show that Bush's popularity has shot up 40 points. His face is still constantly on TV. CNN shows John Kerry give a speech about education, which gets a ho-hum greeting, so they switch back to the war on terror after 2 minutes.

Monday, November 15. With all the coverage about the terrorist attack and the war on terror, Kerry is all but forgotten. Jay Leno quips, "John Kerry, remember him? He's the Democrat nominee for president. Seems to me that John is so lonely these days, he's starting to call Martha Stewart for help." (followed by big laugh)

Tuesday, November 16. The curfew is lifted, the warning color goes down to orange, and people go to the polls. Bush wins the election in a blowout, winning all 50 states. As yet, no one has dared question whether the government could have done more to prevent the attack. Bush takes office for a second term January 20, 2005 at noon...after he won the election "fair and square."

See how it works? And it still complies with the constitutional rules you pointed out. Bush just needs a 2-week window of opportunity.

[LunaC]

50. An alternative ending

Remembering the focus on Iraq and the lack of attention to beefing up security in the U.S, people realize that Bush* ain't savin' them from ANYTHING and Kerry/Edwards win in an astounding landslide.

[calimary]

46. The only problem is - they haven't let the regulations and specifications

of the Constitution, OR the Bill of Rights, prevent them from doing any damned thing they felt like. Why let it stop them now?

Only we can. Maybe we'll have to use pitchforks. But if we shriek in protest, that might do it. If we do nothing, then we deserve whatever happens.

The TOOLS:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1956556#1956858

This is also available in the Activism/Events forum:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=106x8816

The MOTIVATION:

"IF YOU REALLY WANT TO DO SOMETHING...make a phone call or send a paper letter. E-mails are quick and cheap and don't carry the weight of a phone call or a PAPER LETTER. Paul Begala says a hundred paper letters would change the direction of a news program." – DUer grasswire, 5/20/04

[Dookus]

48. because honestly

I WANT there to be a plan in case millions of people are unable to vote on November 2nd.

[iangb]

53. I desperately want to believe this is so......But.....

......I desperately wanted to believe that Bush would feel constrained by the Constitution and International Law before he attacked Iraq too.......self evidently he wasn't.

I also couldn't believe that the American people would allow Bush (and Ashcroft) to strip them of their Constitutional rights with the Patriot Act.......but they did.

I'm not putting too much faith in "But They Can't", or "They wouldn't dare" type rationales from now on.

[TomNickell]

54. The ultimate guarantee....

Riots in the streets.

There is no popular support whatever for extending Bush's term without elections. Even the hard core Repubs won't go for that. Nor would (even this) Supreme Court. Bush just lost big-time with his claim of power to lock up people indefinitely.

Anything looking like a coup d'etat is going to result in massive outrage.

[Minstrel Boy]

60. "Anything looking like a coup d'etat is going to result

in massive outrage."

Were you in cryogenic suspension in 2000?

Say hi to Ted Williams' head for me. :hi:

[jdonaldball]

55. How can his term end when it never even started?

nt

[oxymoron]

61. Kick

[gasperc]

64. postpone till polls look more favorably to them

like the bullshit they pulled in the house last week by adding 20minutes to stop the FBI looking into library records amendment to the patriot act, vote was 216 for/202against but after some arm twisting 210/210, ties don't count

[Killarney]

65. That's not what worries me.

I know that constitutionally, elections have to be held before January 20th. They could be held the next day, or January 19th.

But THIS is the scenario that scares me:

1) A terror attack happens two days (or so) before the election.
2) Bush, in a well-written, well-practiced speech promises that we will hold elections by the end of the month.
3) During this month, Bush does a lot of tough guy speeches about getting the terrorists. We go to war again. We get a few top guys, maybe even bin laden. The mediawhores tell us how great Bush is. How strong he is. How he got those darn terrorists.
4) Bush's approval rating rises to 70% just like it did after 9/11.
5) Bush says it's safe to have the election now. It's the end of November, he kept his promise.
6) Bush wins.

Four more years of Bush.

That could happen. Easily.
THAT's the problem with postponing the election.

[geek tragedy]

67. What makes you think Bush cares about the constitution?

His own administration's legal memoranda make it clear that he feels like he can rule as a dictator.

[Dookus]

70. because

while they are not trustworthy, neither are they all-powerful.

There is no alternative way to interpret "January 20th at noon".

[Bandit]

69. As far as I know there is no Federal election

All elections are local. State or City. They may elect federal officers but there is no such thing as a federal election.

[Dookus]

72. only kinda sorta

the US constitution gives Congress the power to decide the date of presidential and vice-presidential elections.

[Walt Starr]

71. Nope, simply delaying elections won't, but....

Martial law makes him a military dictator, adn we all know how hard it is to wrest power from a military dictator.

[Dookus]

73. No we don't know...

because we've never had one in the US.

The hysterical reaction to this proposal is silly. Tell me, Walt, since nobody else will:

WHY should elections continue on November 2nd if millions of people are unable to vote that day?

[Walt Starr]

76. Elections should continue because that's the LAW

If an area is attacked, under Article II., Section 1., Clause 1., of the United States Constitution, the United States Congress has the power to determmine the time of the choosing of electors. They have done so. It is covered in Title 3, chapter 1 of the U.S. code.

Section 2 of that portion of the code clearly designates who has the power to determine what happens if the election cannot proceed due to an attack on the day of the election. The State Legislature that has jurisdiction over the attacked region is empowered to decide, NOT the federal governement, towhit:

Failure to make choice on prescribed day

Whenever any State has held an election for the purpose of choosing electors, and has failed to make a choice on the day prescribed by law, the electors may be appointed on a subsequent day in such a manner as the legislature of such State may direct.

We are covered for just such an eventuality under the law.

[Walt Starr]

77. Oh, and we DO know how difficult it is to remove dictators

Look at the history of Latin America, the Soviet Union, not to mention the Second World War.

[Massacure]

79. Congress wouldn't let the president make himself dictator.

Congress has partial control of the military. Bush's part is over in Iraq.

[Walt Starr]

80. I find your post completely hilarious

Please, Congress has handed over more power to this president than in the entire history of the United States before this president combined!

[Massacure]

82. FDR had much more power at his hands during his 13 years than Bush has.

[Walt Starr]

83. FDR was not handed the power to make war on his own volition

Congress gave that power to W.

[Massacure]

85. Congress never gave Bush a 21.5 trillion dollar blank cheque

FDR used the 1940-1945 equivlent of nowaday 21.5 trillion to build the A-Bomb in total secrecy.

[Tina H]

78. question:

your interpreation of the Constitution sounds good as far as I know, but we should keep in ming that Repuke president, Abraham Lincoln, suspended habeas corpus (explicit Constitutional right) based on implied war powers.

My question for you:

Has Bush admin acknowledged this thing about the term ending and postponement, but not past Jan 05?

[Massacure]

81. Habeas Corpus where you can't imprison somebody without just cause?

Your forgetting that everyone he imprisoned was a citizen of the Confederacy and thus wasn't a citizen of the Federation. Since they weren't a citizen of the Federation, the Rights of the Constitution didn't apply to them.

[Tina H]

86. No, he imprisoned US citizens

Specifically citizens of Maryland. One of them (not the only one) was named Merryman. Here is a link to the relevant judicial opinion (which Lincoln ignored):

http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/suspension.htm

(Everyone (that I know of) agrees that taking of Confederate prisoners, from states who had seceded, was not a problem.)

[TexasSissy]

84. That may be all they need. Move 'em to December, when

average workers will find it harder to get to the polls, or IW is doing better, and they may edge up their side by a few points. May be all they need.