Is it really necessary to bring up Nazis all the fricking time?

[Colin Ex]

Yes, the Bush administration is a crazy bunch of douchebags who have nobody's interests but their own ruling class in mind. Yes, there are serious ideological issues facing this country. Yes, civil rights are being trampled all OVER the goddamn place.

When we talk about this, do we have to bring up Hitler all the fucking time? There are people I don't like, people I disagree with on many grounds, but I am not so out of touch to think that they want to lock me up, throw away the key, and spray me with nerve gas.

I beg of everyone -- stop comparing everyone from Bush down to the neighborhood cops to Nazis, okay? It makes you look like a paranoid idiot.

-C

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. Bush is a neo-nazi

Is that better?

Choose Kerry Lose Bush - FUCK BUSH - Drop Bush Not Bombs!
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[Katie]

3. Colin Ex read this & tell me who it reminds you of...

"VOICE or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism ..." - Hermann Goering, Nazi Reichsmarschall

Sounds just like bush & co to me.

Also..if its ok for them to call Hillary .."Hitlery" & independant women "femi nazis" I see no harm in responding in kind.

[Colin Ex]

13. That quote? Kind of reminds me of Hermann Goering.

Regarding Hillary and independent women, as soon as someone drops the word "Hitlery" in the context right-wingers use it, the majority of people will almost immediately think something along the lines of "You're a douchebag and an idiot." The same applies to our side.

Really, it's not okay for them to call Hillary "Hitlery" and women who refuse to be doormats "Feminazis," and it's not okay for you and me to say "Bush McHitler" and shit like that.

-C

[Katie]

20. Really? Reminds me of what they call us everyday

"Unpatriotic" & "Unamerican" and unfortunately a majority of this country buys right into it. "You're with us or Against us" Sometimes I really feel like I'm living in a dictatorship not a democracy.

Maybe it does sound extreme, but honestly, when I hear how Bush "talks" to God & God "talks" to bush, I think he is as crazy as Hitler was. And not I'm so sure, if we will ever get an honest count of how many innocent civilians we have killed in Afghanistan & Iraq. Easy to lose count of bush's dead. Or the horrors he allows on Prisoners of War.

As it is bush hides the coffins of our soldiers, 875 dead so far, over no WMD's & no Links to 9/11. Yet its fine, when he jokes about both.. "Lucky me, I hit the trifecta" or "Let me look under my desk to see if I can find some WMDS" Cold.

With all this going on,what truly concerns bush? Gay marriage. Civilization as we know it, will end if they marry, he says. Hitler wasn't too fond of gays either.

So yes, I see alot of comparisons between the two, I'm sorry to say. You don't and you're entitled to your opinion, and I respect that. I guess I'm just so sick & tired of being bullied into following our "leader" and not being to say what I really feel.because it isn't "nice"

They say "Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but Names will never hurt me" If only this was a War of Words.

[Eloriel]

42. Except, of course, if it's true

We get your argument a lot from people who haven't really taken a close look at the similarities as well as the history of the Bush Family, OR who can only equate Hitler with the Holocaust, forgetting completely all the years that led up to that atrocity and his being able to do it.

Here are a few links for you. Study up, will ya?

Fascism Anyone? by Laurence W. Britt
http://secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

March 16, 2003 by CommonDreams.org
When Democracy Failed: The Warnings of History by Thom Hartmann
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm

The NASCAR Nazi
Bush is creating an un-American America
http://www.ocweekly.com/ink/04/38/lost-washburn.php

It's time for another Bush/Nazis thread (Aug. 03)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=199853#199877

Nazification of America Phase 3
http://www.hermes-press.com/nazification_step3.htm

The Reichstag Fire and 9/11; Pretexts for Dictatorship and the Fourth Reich
Includes: Parallels between the Third Reich and the Bush Regime; 9/11 and the Reichstag Fire; What was the Reichstag Fire; Nazis in America; Poland 1939, Iraq 2003 http://www.oilempire.us/reichstag-fire.html

Bush's 9/11 Reichstag Fire by Harvey Wasserman
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0913-03.htm

20 Comparisons by Barrie Zwicker
http://www.deceptiondollar.com/news/BloorRemarks911-03.htm

The Bush Plan for America: The Rise of an American National Security State
By Jennifer Van Bergen, 14 December 2003 http://www.ftaaimc.org/en/2003/12/3232.shtml

Bush is *not* Hitler!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1868574

What Is Fascism
(This one is quite good and incl. two-tiered legal system as well as many other hallmarks, and Dr. Lawrence Britt's list, and additional links)
http://www.couplescompany.com/FEATURES/Politics/Structure3.htm

Superpower Democracy (another must read)
http://www.greaterdemocracy.org/2003_07_01_gd.html#105880160504381723

America, We Have a Problem
http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i4dodd.htm


A small selection of DU links:
It's Time for Another Bush/Nazi Thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=199853#199887
(most links already harvested)

1944: American fascism (re 1944 article)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=212387


Enough with the "_______ is worse than/ as bad as Hitler"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1730317


How Reagan Got Elected in the first place -- My little tribute
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1773894#1776990 (See Octafish post #33 for links to some books on Amazon)


Is U.S. REALLY like Germany in the 30's? (elementaryPenguin)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1772363#1772645
See also: Is US like Germany of the '30s? (Kayell)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1777406#1780958

Are we on the road to becoming Nazi's?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1784358#

Second Circuit Judge Tells It Like It Is: Bush Is Illegitimate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1833026
re this news story: http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/getmailfiles.asp?Style=OliveXLib:ArticleToMail&Type=text/html&Path=NYS/2004/06/21&ID=Ar00101

Comparing Bush to Hitler hurts our credibility
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1873137#1873330

The Fascism is getting harder to hide. And harder to fight.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=750446

Joe Stanton: "Bush's Operation Clean Sweep: World War IV in 2004?"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=808293

Fascism?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1948137

Way, Way Past Time To Label BushCo As Nazis
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1966911#1967150

I'm crying
(Elf sees the warning signs)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1791526#1791609

[Cleita]

84. Oh, it's more than okay because it's the freaking truth.

If you are against the truth, then I'm afraid of what you really do stand for. It's time to point out the elephant in the living room and call it an elephant, instead of throwing a lace tablecloth over it and putting a vase of flowers on top.

[Democracy Died 2004]

91. man bend over dude.

you really took the rw bait on this abusive talk shit.. bend over dude cause if that bothers you more than losing your country you're getting what you deserve.

[Colin Ex]

4. Well, let's see.

Neo-Nazis = crazed fucking idiots who think that the white man is getting perpetually beaten down by this imaginary phantom of evil, better known as "culture."

Bush = just really afraid of change and out of touch with reality, but not in a "Let's kill everyone who has ever disagreed with me, starting from when I was 8 years old" sort of way.

So nah, not really, although it does compare him to a group of fucking idiots he isn't usually compared to. Still not valid, though.

-C

[JaySherman]

2. How about we just compare them with fascists?

And call a spade a spade. Is that better?

[Colin Ex]

11. Nah, not really.

I looked for a USA Fascist Party website so I could compare platforms, but all they have is a shitty Yahoo group, which is hilarious but not really what I'm looking for. A little more research which made me want to take a shower led me to conclude that these people are too stupid to ever organize, so as long as you don't knock on their doors when canvassing you should be fine.

The comparison to fascism (as described by Mussolini, anyway) is a lot more accurate but still off the mark enough to be invalid, not to mention make you look kind of like a jackass to neutral parties.

-C

[Cronus Protagonist]

14. Check this out

http://cronus.com/fascism

Choose Kerry Lose Bush - FUCK BUSH - Drop Bush Not Bombs!
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[JaySherman]

16. This article is worth a read

http://www.cursor.org/stories/fascismintroduction.php

[Cronus Protagonist]

22. Great article. Thanks :)

[xocolatl]

41. 14 Features of Fascism

according to Umberto Eco

The shoe fits, horrifically.

I get where you're coming from. It doesn't help liberals to find a fascist under every rock. But in this particular case it might be the real deal.

[countmyvote4real]

5. Is Darth Bush acceptable?

But you know what they say about ducks.

[JSJ]

6. you may not think they're nazis...

...but that's because they have one hell of a PR apparatus- and because you may be too far removed from the effects of their policies. Are you a yupper?

[bryant69]

9. Good response

Hey if you don't see things the way I do, there's a good chance you've been corrupted by money.

[Colin Ex]

15. What the fuck?

I disagree with you so I must be burgeois? Compelling argument.

-C

[JSJ]

18. as we get closer to 'go time'...

...it will become more 'compelling'. Proclaiming one's 'liberalism'- and living that fine liberal lifestyle- won't save anyone from the ferocity of American nazis. Best to recognize the threat and prepare, rather than repudiate perfectly appropos terminology.

[Minstrel Boy]

37. excellent point:

"too far removed from the effects of their policies"

Iraqis - I wonder if they think the comparison is overblown? Many already think he's worse than Saddam. And remember - GHW Bush said Saddam was "worse than Hitler"!

Cocooned middle America still has a pretty big comfort zone. And it seems to get bigger, as the public square shrinks.

Many Germans didn't think Hitler was as bad as Hitler, either.

[Morning Dew]

81. That;'s the ticket !!!!

Saddam - worse than Hitler
W - not as bad as Saddam

Voila!

W = Hitler

[iangb]

7. This little 'paranoid idiot' is just gonna keep on.........

.......calling a spade a spade........and Nazis, Nazis.

I'm not gonna make it compulsory for everyone though.............if you want to call Bush a fuckwit.....go right ahead.

[bryant69]

8. I don't know -- does a flower really need all of those petals?

Actually I agree. I think the comparisons are both ineffective at bringing people to our way of thinking and inaccurate in most instances. I mean it is fair to say in this and that (say use of war to control the people) the Bush administration resembles Hitler, but even then such comparisons have a way of getting out of hand in the mind of the listener.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Union Thug]

10. Nazi, no - Fascist YES

These guys are fascists in the purest sense of the word: they support the blending of corporate and state interests.

[amber dog democrat]

12. I agree - this from of corporate fascism is different.

it lacks an overtly racist componant - When I begen hearing things about racial purity then I will feel a need to pinch myself. We are not embarked on a crusade against all of Islam either... just the places hat have oil.


However I think back on Sinclair Lewis's It Can't Happen Here...and wonder if your comment is not a bit premature :

SNIP>

but I am not so out of touch to think that they want to lock me up, throw away the key, and spray me with nerve gas.

If the power of the Chimp Adminsisration is not held in check I don't want to guess where they would stop. Afterall , ( LIke Germany ) they are ready to invade a foreign country and lie about the justifications to the citizenry .

Also, like Germany, this regime seems to suscribe to the doctrine that the ends justifies the means, but you are essentially correct, no one is wearing a swastika.
But they have managed to make the American flag symbolic of fear and oppression.

[Colin Ex]

17. The flag was a symbol of fear long before Bush/Cheney got to it.

In my opinion, anyway. It's pretty hard to argue that the US has pure hands -- I mean, for fuck's sake, the School of the Americas.

Just saying.

-C

[JaySherman]

19. Fascism doesn't just pop up overnight

It is a kind of thought virus that grows and spreads over time. By the time it openly manifests itself in (metaphorically speaking) jackboot swastika form, it is usually to late for the populace to uproot it by peaceful means. We haven't quite reached that stage yet but growth of the flag as a symbol of fear, and of the repubilican party as a cancer on our democracy has been building for a long time.

[Cats Against Frist]

27. Very Well Said

A traditional, self-serving narrative.
Nationalism.
The marriage of corporation and government.
The erosion of civil liberties.
Religious zealotry, with a heavy emphasis on state role.
An "other" to hate.
Language manipulation.
Media concentration.
Secrecy.
Militarization and occupation.


Yeah, I'd say that's the run-up to a fascist state. And I agree that it's not too late -- but it's getting close -- and now is not the time to start pulling punches.

[amber dog democrat]

59. technically speaking

we have not had pure hands since the genocide of the American Indians - going back to before the Trail of Tears.... { " Justice Marshall has made his law, now let him enforce it " Andrew Jackson.

A war over stage sovereignty and slavery is kinda shameful too.
But I agree - US foreign policy after WW II and after WW I for that matter has not been something to feel very proud of.

I almost have a schizoid perception of American history.

[Nadienne]

57. If they were wearing Swastikas

that would be too obvious. Especially given the bad connotation that the word "Nazi" has. They're trying to tell us that they're "good" for us... That willingly surrendering our freedoms is the "right thing to do"; that de-regulating corporations won't have nasty side effects ("Corporations care about your kids' futures almost as much as you do. They wouldn't dream of endangering anyone to make a profit."); and that the war in Iraq is justified because Saddam Hussein was a really bad man.

See, all this stuff that's "good" for us... Well, we wouldn't believe it if they went around wearing Swastikas. :crazy:

[amber dog democrat]

61. I think you hit the central issue.

Corporations have way too much power and act in their own interests.

Not yours or mine. This is where i believe the REAL danger lies.

[Nadienne]

68. Too much power...

Now with Bill Moyers on Friday night had an interview with (I think his name is) Thomas Frank who wrote the book What's the Matter with Kansas? - talking about people in Kansas voting against their economic interests.

At some point he talked about unions. He said that, like, 8% of the country is unionized. He said that he did a poll (or there was a poll taken), asking whether or not poll takers would like to be members of a union - the poll used the word "union". 40% said yes, they would like to be part of a union... But it was too difficult to get one started, etc... Another poll asking whether or not poll takers would like to have bargaining power with their employers - for things like wages and benefits - basically what a union is supposed to provide. 80% of the people polled said, "Yes."

Which seems to indicate (at least in my opinion) that there is a certain stigma to the word "union".

Recently a local meat-packing plant has been in my local news. The plant and the union leaders haven't concluded negotiations for a contract renewal. So the unionized workers have been working there for the past month or two without a contract. While there might be some tension, so far the workers haven't gone on strike.

The websites of the local news stations, and the newspaper, took this opportunity to criticize the union for corruption... which might be true, for all I know. And they talked about a plant in a near-by town that doesn't have unionized workers - and those workers are happy and aren't complaining and get paid "better" than the workers at unionized plants.

But none of the news articles spent much time defending the union's perspective.

If my news is like the news elsewhere, then no wonder there's such a stigma on the word "union". The media seems complicit in the corporate power game. The media tells us, you know, "wealth trickles down" and "don't bite the hand that feeds you" and "if you don't like that corporations have too much power, you must be a Communist like Stalin".

There is real danger in this...

[amber dog democrat]

73. and what is wrong with a living wage and safe working conditions?

Let them squeak, but if today, you have rights, someone stood up for them .

We know where the news gets its bias - and why. They're not our friends.
I saw the end of that interfview too. I think you / we MUST keep the pressure on.

Sometimes you have to fight for common decency - its up to us to look after things.
I agree there IS real danger, but there always seems to have been something at risk.
Its never done, Never fixed. Evil and greed seem to go hand in hand.

[Nadienne]

74. Keep the pressure on...

DU, and when I'm visiting with my boyfriend's folks, are the only places I seem to find people who agree and understand.

I try to point out media bias to co-workers. They don't seem willing to believe me. But of course, I'm telling them that everything they think they know is wrong. :)

And my family gets hung up on the moral/culture issues. Gay marriage, abortion, prayer in school. I should e-mail them parts of the transcripts from that interview, with the subject line "You are being played like a harp".

"Keep the pressure on" = a daunting task.

[amber dog democrat]

75. Yeah but admit it,

you are already on the outside looking in. Sheeple on the mainstream are not likely to change long held beliefs until something comes apart... and even then watch for cognative dissonance. Its out there.

I choose not to cast my swine before the pearls. Its still important to be truthful as you see it - yet even I pick my battles.

A little cynicism goes a long way, provided you do your homework.

Re: " I'm telling them that everything they think they know is wrong. :)"

do they really think ? allot of us grow up with pre programmed assumptions.
The GOP is very good at playing on people's cultural obsessions. A numnber of sheeple don't understand this. A MAJOR step would be to get rid of your TV.

[Nadienne]

83. I hate to call them that,

but when their aspirations are limited to how much $$ they make, what kind of job they have, the TV shows they want to see, etc., sheeple is what they are. And aside from the usual propaganda e-mails pushing wedge issues - which they dutifully forward on to me - and the periodic grumbling about taxes, they rarely bring up politics, and the only news they care to talk about is which hollywood star is boinking which hollywood star.

They don't care about anything worth caring about... And when they do care, they spit out carefully pre-chewed info handed down to them from propagandists. It's like they don't even have critical thinking abilities.

It's frustrating. :cry:

[amber dog democrat]

85. and as H.D Thoreau once put it

Yet even they expect to go to heaven at last.....

You will have to just stop thinking. You will be so much happier.
Did you ever study Plato's Cave Analogy ? I think this is what we are talking about.
most people don't want critical thinking. Its too much to ask.

All that gray matter just makes one feel dissattisfied.

I don't ever want to just write off another person, but I am very selective regarding whom I can share opinions with. I believe the real traggedy is having NO sense of inquirey, no curriosity, no inspiration, and limited awarenness.

What kinda life is that? And yet this is what you are going to encounter in the line at the grocery store - on average. Obvioulsy you are an exception to this rule.
But also I beleive our mass media conspires to deepen the day to day trance most people. ( read CONSIMERS ), navigate through in their daily lives.
The last thing our societal norms encourage is an awakened intellect. It would make you less of a passive consumer.

[Nadienne]

86. It reminds me of a poem by Tennyson

from In Memoriam A.H.H.

27

I envy not in any moods
The captive void of noble rage,
The linnet born within the cage,
That never knew the summer woods;

In envy not the beast that takes
His license in the field of time,
Unfetter'd by the sense of crime,
To whom a conscience never wakes;

Nor, what may count itself as blest,
The heart that never plighted troth
But stagnates in the weeds of sloth:
Nor any want-begotten rest.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'T is better to have loved and lost
than never to have loved at all.

I agree - wandering around in a passive fog is not life. And I don't doubt that the corporate powers that run things would prefer passive consumers. I kinda think they also want to turn the middle class into indentured servants... Which I imagine would be easier to do if the masses are passive... I wonder how much emphasis is placed on critical thinking in schools, colleges, and universities... I wonder if teachers are, for the most part, satisfied with memorized answers instead of in-depth understanding of subject matter...

[amber dog democrat]

88. That was lovely

I think I want to memorize one.

Here's one of my favorites...

A Consecration,

John Masefield

Not of the princes and prelates with periwigged charioteers
Riding triumphantly laureled to lap the fat of the years -
Rather the scorned - the rejected - the men hemmed in with the spears;

The men of the tattered battalion which fights till it dies,
Dazed with the dust of the battle, the din and the cries,
The men with the broken heads and the blood running in their eyes.

Not the be-medaled Commander, beloved of the throne,
Riding cock-horse to parade when the bugles are blown
but the lads who carried the koppie and cannot be known.

Not the ruler for me, but the ranker, the tramp of the road,
the slave with the rack on his shoulders pricked on with the goad,
the man with too weighty a burden, too weary a load.

The sailor, the stoker of steamers, the man with the clout.
the chantyman bent at the halliards, putting a tune to the shout,
the drowsy man at the wheel and the tired lookout.

Others may sing of the wine, and the wealth and the mirth,
The portly presence of potentates goodly in girth; -
Mine be the dirt and the dross, the dust and the scum of the earth !

Theirs be the music, the colour, the glory the gold;
Mine be a handful of ashes, a mouthfull of mould.
of the maimed of the halt and the blind in the rain and the cold -

Of these shall my songs be fashioned, my tales be told

Amen.


Regarding corporate powers....
and i am so sick of working for corporations. I am reminded of a parody of the Coke ditty - I want to teach the world to blah blah blah.....

" I want to force the world to live - in abject poverty.
I want to load them down in chains... and make them work for me "

Its the real thing....

If I were not so circumspect I would say we ARE socially engineered to be passive respondent consumers...unless we get the special education reserved for the elite managerial classes. Chances are your teachers are as clueless as anyone else you will run into. Am I being unfair ?- I have a vision of robots making robots to serve other robots. There is an old Frank Zappa lyric " Be a loyal plastic Robot for a world that does not care :" Maybe having an existential focus helps keep one sane.

In my experience of the education systems here in the US... we are taught all the cultural myths one needs to have an agreed upon understanding of the world - with little direct experience to tie it to anything useful. Its like Plato's Cave analogy.

I keep going back to the film series The Matrix - and just see it as another cultural myth.

But the Tennyson poem was wonderful. I am thinking of a stanze from the Rubiyat

One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment the well of life to taste
the stars are falling
and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing
Oh make haste !

[Nadienne]

89. And I'll try to memorize yours...

There's nothing quite like good poetry. :) Thank you for sharing; I might never have heard of John Masefield otherwise.

Re: "In my experience of the education systems here in the US... we are taught all the cultural myths one needs to have an agreed upon understanding of the world - with little direct experience to tie it to anything useful."

Like, 1 and 1 is 2... Useful for keeping track of your bosses accounts; also useful for making sure that you pay what you owe at grocery stores and such... But beyond that, useless.

And these are the "A, B, C's"... We don't care so long as you can remember them, and know that they are the building blocks for the words you use when you take phone messages for your boss... But beyond that, nearly useless.

You need to know this stuff so you can feed yourself.

But don't worry; there's nothing more to life than staying alive.

[amber dog democrat]

93. What is a person to know?

There is that song with the phrase, '.. give us bread, but give us roses ".
Didn't that pertain to the Lowell Mills in Mass.?

Masefield is wonderful... I have put some of his poems to guitar and they work very well.

Any thoughts on Naruda?

I wonder if I may be a bit shrill on my criticism. There will always be teachers who go beyond - and I know you have met one or two. I may have been referring to high school. I think of that Paul Simon lyric



" When I think back on all the CRAP I learned in highschool.... Its a wonder I can think at all "

You know what your comments reminded me of? After the Third Reich took Poland, and after the intelligentsia were liquidated, the common Poles were to be to count to 20 and read simple instructions, but nothing was permitted beyond that.
- William L. Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich... more Nazi stuff.
I think the only remedy is to be dedicated to learning all the time.

[Nadienne]

99. Unfortunately, my knowledge of poets

is largely limited to the Brits, from Blake to Eliot... and only some of those Brits. It was a very informative - and expensive - semester of college.

It wasn't the only semester I was a college student. I've spent time at a tech school. Granted, the focus of a tech school is to teach students a trade. And it wasn't just that teachers didn't want us to understand. The students just wanted to know what they had to know in order to pass the tests. And some classes had students that would get angry when the teacher tried to teach them more, or tried to explain the why of something.

So, perhaps I was too shrill, too.

Lowell Hills, Masefield, and Naruda... Looks like I have homework! :)

Putting Masefield to guitar... Poetry to music... It's sounds lovely... Ever hear of Loreen McKennit? I think some of her songs are old poems. What kind of guitar do you play?

[Swamp Rat]

21. "Bush is not like Hitler, so stop saying that!"

"Bush is not like Hitler, so stop saying that!"

"Bush is not like Hitler, so stop saying that!"

"Bush is not like Hitler, so stop saying that!"

-Bob Boudelang

[Zorra]

23. They really do want to lock you up, throw away the key, and

get rid of you any way they can, if you are not a "good american".

Haven't you been paying attention to what has been going on?

Get real.

[rman]

24. let's look at the similarities:

- crazy bunch of douchebags
- nobody's interests but their own ruling class in mind
- serious ideological issues
- civil rights are being trampled
- engaging in expansionist war of agression
- formation of public opinion by propaganda and censorschip (aka "lies")

The neighborhood cop may not be a nazi, but Bush certainly is one. A nazi, fascist or more generally: a despot - take your pick. Either way the US and the world are in deep shit, so there's plenty cause to warn people about it.

[deacon]

25. Listen, they have hitler on their web site--start with them, leave your

jerkbag complaint outta here.

[unblock]

26. apart from the jew-killing, they certainly borrowed a LOT from the nazis

they aren't just like nazis, but mostly that's because we're a different country and they don't quite have the stranglehold control over the country that the nazis had.

jews are 'safe' because anti-semitism is not tolerated here anywhere near the extent it was tolerated there. but homophobia is played up here more because that IS tolerated more.

they are not nazis because WE would not tolerate an obvious, exact copy of the nazis. but lose the mustaches, the swastikas, and the violent anti-semitism, and viola, they are acceptable.

so they are not like nazis.

they're just doing exactly what the nazis would have done, in exactly the way the nazis would have, had they come to power in this country in 2000 instead of germany in 1933.

[dbt]

28. Yes.

:evilgrin:
dbt

[louis c]

29. When freedoms are lost

there is and should be a comparison to Nazi Germany.

If the elections are called off or postponed by a Government that has lied repeatedly about the most important events in decades, what should we compare the situation to, the Magna Carta?

[midwayer]

30. How about Straussians? (eom)

[kayell]

33. Bit of a tough reference for most Americans nt

[mopaul]

31. I "AM" a paranoid idiot and proud of it

and they ARE nazis

[kayell]

32. Yes, it's a bit more accurate than comparing to Stalin because of

the speed and methods with which the totalitarian take-over is progressing. The Reichstag fire comparison is also useful. In fact it looks like they are following much of the Nazi play book, with bits of 1984 and The Handmaids Tale thrown in.

Stop imagining that comparisons to nazis mean to where Hitler and his cronies were in 1942. Think about how and when they started out. It takes a while to boil a frog.

Of course the Bush family history also invites considering Nazis.

As others have said, fascism does not require anti-semitism. Any old ripe to be demonized enemy will do.

FEAR, FEAR, FEAR

[Lars39]

34. Are you really only 17 years old?

Your age is showing.

[kayell]

35. Ah, that explains much. Time to do a bit more reading in history.

[BiggJawn]

36. Tell me again how "paranoid" I am after you go to the camps...

Yes we do have to "bring up Hitler all the fucking time".

Have you ever heard the saying "Those who do not learn the lesson s of history are doomed to repeat them"?

I'm quite sure there were well-intended people back in 1930's Germany who were saying "What are you, crazy? Hitler's gonna put Germany back to WORK!"

You don't like the comparisons, nobody's holding a gun on you to click on those threads.

[GliderGuider]

38. The use of the term "Nazi" loads the discussion, but...

Once you understand the nature of fascism - its genesis, the culture-dependence of its manifestations, its mutability, but most of all what its common driving forces are (as opposed simply deconstructing particular instances like the German or Italian models) it's pretty hard to deny that the US is at the moment a fascist state in some very pure senses.

The article referenced above at http://www.cursor.org/stories/fascismintroduction.php is excellent at getting past the "Nazi" interpretation of fascism and delving into its culture-independent fundamentals. I particularly appreciate the phrase "palingenetic ultranationalist populism", and the associated definition:

Fascism: Modern political ideology that seeks to regenerate the social, economic, and cultural life of a country by basing it on a heightened sense of national belonging or ethnic identity. Fascism rejects liberal ideas such as freedom and individual rights, and often presses for the destruction of elections, legislatures, and other elements of democracy. Despite the idealistic goals of fascism, attempts to build fascist societies have led to wars and persecutions that caused millions of deaths. As a result, fascism is strongly associated with right-wing fanaticism, racism, totalitarianism, and violence.

That sounds like the current state of affairs in the Good Ole Yew Ess of Eh to me...

[baldguy]

39. The essence of fascism is

those in power saying "Trust us. We know whats best for you - and don't bother asking for more info, because we won't tell you." As long as the public goes along that's the death of democracy.

People bring up Hitler and Nazism simply because it's appropriate.

[Skittles]

40. well there you are, Colin

:hi:

[snippy]

43. You should keep in mind that the first person to compare Bush to Hitler

was Karl Rove. Of course Rove did it in an admiring and worshipful way.

Drudge excerpting from Woodward's book "Bush At War:

ROVE THOUGHT POST-9/11 WORLD SERIES GAME LIKE NAZI RALLY

"The president emerged wearing a New York Fire Department windbreaker. He raised his arm and gave a thumbs-up to the crowd on the third base side of the field. Probably 15,000 fans threw their arms in the air imitating the motion.

He then threw a strike from the rubber, and the stadium erupted. Watching from owner George Steinbrenner’s box, Karl Rove thought, It’s like being at a Nazi rally." (p. 277)

http://www.drudgereport.com/wood.htm (emphasis added).

[wurzel]

44. Hitler didn't begin where he ended!

Hitler didn't start by gassing people. It took over ten years to get to that point. That said I think you are right. Bush is not Hitler. But it is also true his administration does have a flavor of Fascism about it. Certainly enough to bother me.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

45. You bet it is when the NeoCons start talking about postponing elections!..

You don't like the posts comparing the NeoCons favorably to the old German Nazis, then just don't READ them!!!

And keep the name-calling to yourself...the only one that looks like an "idiot" is the first one to resort to such tactics.

[prolesunited]

46. I thought the comparison was a bit overblown myself

until I visited the Holocaust Museum in D.C. I was especially interested in the first section that depicted Hitler's rise to power. The parallels are chilling.

Do you actually think they started out by announcing their plans? Many of the same elements are there. Economic problems. Huge divisions among the population. Widespread nationalism. Focusing on others as the cause of problems. Puritanical leanings, with an emphasis on ideal families.

Hitler did not even have popular support at first. He got in because the left was too divided to form a coalition to keep him out of power. And then attacks were orchestrated and fear heightened to get the population to coalesce support around him.

Do I see widespread use of gas chambers? No, but there are MANY other ways to silence dissent, control the population and reshape democracy.

Please read some more history focusing on the rise to power, not the final result.

[flobee1kenobi]

47. I see your point-BUT

on the same note, I get tired of being grouped together with Communists! If the Dems. of this country choose to lay down to the Repugs tactics and not fight back, then why even have an election? Just give Bush an additional 4 years of the same policies and be happy that we didn't ruffle any feathers. The ONLY way to get rid of Bush is to use their own tactics against them. We tried to let Bush self destruct, and they put enough spin on it as to actually improve his image. We try to point out his poor record and we get labeld as pessimists. It is now time to fire up our own spin machine and put an end to all this crap once and for all

As the man himself once said-"are we going to wait until the mushroom cloud before we take action?"

if it looks like a duck
and it quacks like a duck.....

[tandot]

48. If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck...

Sorry, but there are too many similarities. Especially with them now looking into the possibility to postpone or cancel elections. They are using the same tactics. The whole thing smells like Fascism to me.

I'd rather be called a "paranoid idiot" than a gullible and naive moron.

[TeacherCreature]

49. Hitler disappeared Jews

Bush is disappearing Arabs. I can see where you would have a problem with the comparison.

[Q]

50. Golly...I was just going to start a BUSH* IS HITLER thread...

...but I stopped in here to check with you first.

- Can we at least use the word 'fascist'?

[MadHound]

51. Beg pardon friend, but if the truth fits, speak it.

First off, the Bush family my a large part of their money by aiding and abetting the rise of Hitler and the Nazis. They were even busted for trading with enemies in '42, yet continued to aid, abett, and make money with the Nazis through the end of WWII, and beyond.

George H.W. Bush had eighteen Nazis in his run for President, both in '80 and '88. When light was shown on this fact, he dropped them from his campaing, but quietly reinstalled them in his administration. He was also actively involved in relocating Nazis to this country, both in his private enterprises and as CIA director.

Both Bushes imposed some very draconian laws that stripped US citizens of their rights. Bush I did it under the auspices of the War on Drugs, while Bush II passed the Patriot Act and other facist law under the cover of the War on Terror. Both Bushes have used terminology plucked straight from Hitler's speech book, New World Order and Homeland Security, amongst others. Bush II has even stated that he life would be easier if he was a dictator.

I attended a lecture by a former Nazi era German woman, and she was quite fearful for the future of America. She said that in many of the attitudes and policies it reminded her of Nazi era Germany. This was in 1990, and it has only gotten worse since.

Sorry friend, but if it walks, talks and rules like a Nazi, then one must point out that it is a Nazi. Yes, it has been a stealthy creep towards facism, but it is here and doing fine, thank you. To refuse to acknowledge the reality of life in these United States is to be willfully blind. I refuse to close my eyes, and I suggest that you don't do so either.

[Karenina]

63. What MadHound said.

The generation that survived "The War" and dealt with the aftermath is dying off. I've been given honest answers to such pointed questions as, "What were you thinking when the stench was overwhelming and the ash settled on the windowsills?" I am filled with Angst for America. WHAT WILL IT TAKE FOR YOU TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE OBVIOUS???

[Hubert Flottz]

52. Can you say GOPstapo?

Wake up and smell the chimneys!

[Ducks In A Row]

53. If the shoe fits

and all that.

[DrBB]

54. American roots of fascism; how to distinguish "right-wing" and "fascist"

You're right--it is not an accusation that should be made lightly or ignorantly.

Nevertheless, there are some very nuanced, historically grounded discussions out there on this whole subject, and it's not something to be lightly dismissed.

A good case can be made that, whereas Mussolini coined the term "fascism," and Hitler gave it its peculiar genocidal spin, its roots are right here in the US of A. The so-called "patriot" movement--gun cults, Christian Identity racists, the militias--are only the most recent face on an American phenomenon that dates back to the post-Civil War period. The KKK is probably the world's first fascist terrorist organization. And on the intellectual side, Hitler and the Nazis explicitly based their genocidal racist theories on the work of eugenicists in the USA--people who enjoyed considerable prominence (the Museum of Natural History in NYC was for a long time an institutional epicenter).

David Neiwirt's discussion of fascism is highly useful on many levels but most of all for postulating a concrete definition of fascism. It thus allows for a distinction between full-blown fascism and mere hard-right conservatism, but also allows for a coherent analysis of the degree to which hard-right conservatism is moving toward or away from genuine fascism. He points to certain key concepts that need to be in place: eliminationist rhetoric, a demogogic appeal to some form of national rebirth or purification, all wedded to corporate and political power, is the thumbnail version. A second important article, Rush, Newspeak, and Fascism: An Exegesis identifies the ways in which genuinely fascist extremist groups have been increasingly successful in "mainstreaming" their ideas, so that they are taken up in the rhetoric of more conventional right wing groups. "All liberals are traitors," according to Ann Coulter, a sentiment that verges dangerously into eliminationist territory.

Obviously "fascist!" is a desperately overworked accusation. But completely ignoring these tendencies or refusing to recognize them when they appear is equally mistaken and, I think, dangerous. Instead of a blanket prohibition over this whole topic, I'd urge everyone to read Neiwirt as a starting place (and his sources are good too). He's an excellent counterbalance to both hysteria and willfull denial on this topic.

[Octafish]

55. When we're in the Concentration Camps it'll be too late to complain.

I don't make this shit up. If the NAZI fits, Ashcroft:

Camps for Citizens: Ashcroft's Hellish Vision
Attorney general shows himself as a menace to liberty.

by Jonathan Turley

Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft's announced desire for camps for U.S. citizens he deems to be "enemy combatants" has moved him from merely being a political embarrassment to being a constitutional menace.

Ashcroft's plan, disclosed last week but little publicized, would allow him to order the indefinite incarceration of U.S. citizens and summarily strip them of their constitutional rights and access to the courts by declaring them enemy combatants.

The proposed camp plan should trigger immediate congressional hearings and reconsideration of Ashcroft's fitness for this important office. Whereas Al Qaeda is a threat to the lives of our citizens, Ashcroft has become a clear and present threat to our liberties.

The camp plan was forged at an optimistic time for Ashcroft's small inner circle, which has been carefully watching two test cases to see whether this vision could become a reality. The cases of Jose Padilla and Yaser Esam Hamdi will determine whether U.S. citizens can be held without charges and subject to the arbitrary and unchecked authority of the government.

CONTINUED...

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0814-05.htm

[geek tragedy]

56. My term for his admin is

"proto-fascists."

[treepig]

58. i half agree

time to stop referring to mr. bush as a nazi and/or mr. hitler.

but, wouldn't it be great if we could re-incarnate mr. hitler and get him on the dem ticket?

sure, some will object to his past mistakes, but providing that he denounces them (after all he was probably tricked by lies he was told by by the ilk of samuel and/or prescott bush and their cabal) we'll have a dynamic, mesmerizing leader.

best of all, the hard-core neo-nazi supporters of the current mr. bush have their heads so far up their asses they'll never realize that we have a "new" hitler - they'll go for the name recognition and blindly vote for him. that's 5-10% of mr. bush's support right off the top - and in a extremely close election - that could be HUGE.

[mmonk]

60. Yes

There is a lesson about what people will allow to happen with their government. History gives us a framework with which to hopefully not to make the same mistakes.

[Kitka]

62. The scary thing is that too many people are unwilling to see

The similarities. I sometimes wonder exactly HOW far they will have to go before people realize what could be happening. I am starting to understand how Hitler accomplished all he did – under the guise of patriotism, you can sell people on a lot of immoral shit and they don’t even realize what is happening. That’s a huge similarity I can’t believe you don’t recognize.

[buycitgo]

64. yeah, but what about THIS

Elephant man being harrassed by Nazi soldiers
collection of Jeff Dorchen
http://www.mejeffdorchen.oblivio.com/imagegallery/index.html

[jobycom]

65. Remember the saying "Never again?"

Well the only way you keep it from happening again is to head it off before it happens. Sure, Bush doesn't have the numbers Hitler has yet, but give him time and he will.

The goal is to not give him the time.

[Karenina]

90. BINGO, JOBYCOM!!!

Ladies and Gentleman we have a winner for the most succinct post!
:loveya: Joby!

[ibegurpard]

95. You don't even have to question the motives

or impugn the people in power. What should make you and every thinking person very uncomfortable is the erosion of liberties and the willingness of the public to go along with it.

[porphyrian]

66. The only time I've seen it today is on this post. - n/t

[leftofthedial]

67. who do you think you are--Goebbels?

just kidding.

It's only as necessary as the fascists in power make it.

[Forkboy]

69. Well,we certainly dont want to look bad

[cap]

70. the bush family is now innoculated

b/c of a general dismay at using the word "NAZI" loosely.

Unfortunately, this shuts down any discussion of Prescott Bush's business dealings with Thyssen and his involvement with Silesian company that ran the steelworks that used slave labor from Auschwitz.

There were demonstrations in Poland during his visit. Unfortunately press reports in the Polish press have been scrubbed from the Internet. You can no longer google Bush and Oswiecim (the Polish word for Auschwitz). You can search DU archives for pointers to the original links for this story. There was a story in the Polish version of Newsweek about this. It never made it to the American version of Newsweek and that story has been removed from the Internet.

[westsidexview]

71. i agree

i think there are a lot of similarities between bush and hitler but to keep harping about it positions the pathologically anti-bush crowd as frothing, rabid kooks who don't want to consider anything outside of their own agenda. such white-hot fanaticism comes off a lot like nazism or at least some other intolerant "ism".

[tom_paine]

72. Yes, yes it is. The grandchildren of Hitler's Angel

shouldn't be compared to the Nazis?

When 9-11 and Reichstag, PATRIOT and Enabling AScts have so much in common?

No, we are far past time when it is necessary to call thing by their right names.

The Busheviks are "kinder and gentler" Nazis in EVERY area except overt racism and violence.

I WILL NOT back off that basic truth.

[bobthedrummer]

76. Militarism, corporatism, Straussianism, imperialism-all these elements

are present in the administration of George W. Bush aka The War President-the use of the media, organized religion--the lies...

Yes, it is fascism, and yes, there is a direct connection to the Third Reich not only in the Bush family but in intelligence, aerospace and defense industries, the national security state that will do anything to silence dissent to the lies and crude manipulations of the powers that be.

In short, they are a bunch of nazis-and there is institutional racism involved as well as sexism, homophobia, religious intolerance, and a lot of other things that were present in the Third Reich.

We aren't "paranoid idiots" here-when all else fails call the truth crazy and ridicule it, just like the reactionaries did in the Allegory of the Cave or the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

[Centre_Left]

77. Fascist! (nm)

nm

[Zolok]

78. Heil No!

I think the Nazi thing is overdone, but it's sieg and von haff dozen of another to many people on the DU.
:)
www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com

[AngryAmish]

79. They are Nazis in all but name

That is why they must be crushed. There can be no flinching.

[AntiCoup2K4]

80. The Bush Criminal Empire was founded on concentration camp profits

Nazis? Hell yes, and quite literally so.

[ArkDem]

82. You can't see the resemblance?

[wadestock]

87. I think the true analogy to Hitler is with Limbaugh

It's dead on accurate in many respects.

Hitler found a way to rationalize that people would be more productive and actually get more out of life if they were unincumbered by all sorts of things which would bring them down....such as disabilities or other genetic imperfections.

He found a way to desenitize people to the notion of "putting certain people out of their misery" because they really couldn't be truly productive and thus appreciate life. But he also found a way to specifically find a way to hate the Jews...who could be likened to a cancer in society that would hold back society itself from realizing its true potential.

Tell me the big difference between this and what Limbaugh is saying?
He's found a way to frame the argument that neocon runaway capitalism has to be unincumbered by liberals....who only seek to bring it down.
He's found a direct and potent way to cause a large percentage of the country to HATE liberalism.

Now of course we're much more of an open society, with all sorts of checks and balances that prevent a dip chit like him and his convoluted message from getting too much out of hand. But when you look at it for what it really is.....it's pretty much the same message.

[DoctorWeird]

92. You said it yourself...

Bush and his ilk think that the "white protestant male" is being picked on. They call for an end to affirmative action. They screw the poor, where a large quantity of minorities lie, and cry class warfare if someone stands up to them. Both Hitler and Bush took a crisis and used it to their advantage. Hitler used WWI reparations against Germany to get the Germans on his side. He made them feel like victims who had been attacked wrongly. He made them feel like it was "us vs them" and used the mob mentality to pass laws against Germany's own citizens who didnt agree with him. Sound familiar? Hitler killed more people cruelly. However, do you think if Bush had had the power Hitler had he would not use it to further his own cause? Invade whatever countries he wanted.

[digno dave]

94. I too wish it would stop. Makes us seem like repugs in the 90s. ICK!!!

[Bluebear]

96. Today's Senate gay-bash fest was very 1930-ish.

If you ask me.

[Octafish]

97. The NAZIFICATION of America -- Phase 3

http://www.hermes-press.com/nazification_step3.htm

[Zen]

98. I just saw this title - what's with another "Nazi" post?

lol - are you perpetuating what annoys you??

[mopaul]

100. woo woo! i'm number 100!