friend @ work re: F911: "can't even be called a documentary--so many lies"

[Bertha Venation]

She said it's "so skewed." Well, yeah. It's one man's POV. He didn't claim to be "fair & balanced" like we all know Fox is.

But lies? I asked her to point out one. She said: "Like them helping all those Saudis getting out of the country when all the rest of the planes were grounded. That didn't happen, I know that didn't happen." I asked her HOW she knows. "I donno, I saw it on TV or something.... Sure, they got out of the country but not when no one else was flying."

Can anyone link me to incontrovertible proof that Saudi subjects were hustled out when no one else was flying?

Oh, for the record: this friend is definitely anti-Bush. But she routinely shits all over everything just because she can.

[redqueen]

1. The flights *out of the country* were after the ban was lifted...

but Moore never said otherwise.

Very successful strawman there. :)

[ChickMagic]

4. I believe that at least one flight

was allowed while planes were grounded. It was on Sept. 13 if I recall. Some of the others left after the ban was lifted.

But ya know what? Moore lied, I tell you, LIED! The book is not called "My Pet Goat"! It's called "The Pet Goat". Lies!

[redqueen]

14. Yes... that was the flight that was allowed DURING the ban

and that was the one Mike was referring to in the movie... but morans everywhere are saying that he implied that all the flights were allowed, so blah blah blah

Really impressive, ain't it?

lol

[ChickMagic]

21. I'm glad that brain cell is still working!

He might have implied it, but he sure as heck didn't say it. And it misses the point anyway. The point was that the FBI/CIA had not had adequate time to question them before they left. When my sister died, she had a seizure and fell hitting her head on a table. Before anyone could get there, she died. My poor parents showed up about then before the ambulance and police, not knowing she was dead. The police questioned them for about 3 hours.

Why, after all the 911 murders, didn't the feds get the chance to question family members? Why my parents and not the Bin Ladens?

[redqueen]

27. Yep - completely beside the point

Which is their whole point, no doubt... distract distort and distract some more!

[Bertha Venation]

7. "Very successful strawman there." Indeed.

And I got so furious in that moment that I bought it. I ought to know my limits better than that. I regret even telling this individual that I went to see the film.

Y'know what her first reaction was when I told her I'd seen it yesterday? She laughed, and said, "oh, god, wasn't that just hilarious?"
:wtf:

[redqueen]

16. I find myself wondering more and more often

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?!

[Bertha Venation]

17. You & me both, redqueen.

I have a friend who knows Shrub personally, worked for him in TX & the WH for 8+ years, and just finished up as the IG for the Coalition Provisional Authority. I'm going to have to invite him over for dinner one night, and steel myself to ask him WHY?

He'll give me a straight answer. He won't attack me. He knows I won't attack him. It's a discussion I look forward to -- if I can get through it without crying, which is what I do when I'm angry.

[redqueen]

22. I'll be with you in spirit

I don't know how you could get through it without some kind of emotional outburst. The lives lost... the families damaged forever... the fallout from this is incalculable.

[Bertha Venation]

25. Well, get this.

Stuart, the friend, is an attorney. (Besides the other things I told you about him, he was instrumental in the FL recount.) I worked for him while he was between the WH and Baghdad, working at the law firm that employs me.

Get this: He told me that getting to know me (and we did become friends, and it was a great thing he left, so we could be friends) had changed his opinion on gay people.

So maybe his views on a good many other things have changed recently. After all, he was right there in the midst of all the "big noise" in Baghdad for nearly a year. He now knows that war is terrorism, too.

All in all, I can't wait to talk to him.

[redqueen]

26. Bless you for taking the time

So many just write off people that they perceive as being on the 'other side'... nice to hear you were able to see the person behind the politics. Good luck with that talk.

:toast:

[geek tragedy]

2. There is no such link.

Moore was careful not to say that, but some have taken the film to imply it. The grounding ended September 13, and all of the Saudi flights leaving the country took place after that.

[Literate Tar Heel]

3. st. pete times

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/06/09/Tampabay/TIA_now_verifies_flig.shtml

[democrat_patriot]

9. Thanks for the link!

I have about 35 people who NEED to read this. I got that "it never happened, we would have heard about it" crap as well.

Thanks again.

[wryter2000]

12. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[SheepyMcSheepster]

5. get your facts here

http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/

“The White House approved planes to pick up the bin Ladens and numerous other Saudis.”

“At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes carried the Saudis and the bin Ladens out of the U.S. after September13th. In all, 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country.”

find details at the link http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/

[AussieInCA]

10. yep while saudis are getting special treatment..my van load of US Citizens

is spending 30 hours in a rental van because all the domestic flights are grounded.


I guess Saudi Citizens get a different set of rights to us US citizens.

[wryter2000]

13. And Canadians were taking us in

And Canadian families were taking in stranded Americans who couldn't get home. And Michael Moore and Al Franken had to rent cars to drive across country so they could get home to their families.

[TNDemo]

6. Here's another source.

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/state/8885976.htm

[skypilot]

8. I think the main point....

...being made about the Bin Ladens being flown out of the country was that they were not questioned in depth beforehand, not so much that they were flown out while everyone else was grounded.

[Wapsie B]

24. Exactly.

Here we have family members of OBL and they are not detained and questioned? Very damning to me.

[wryter2000]

11. Check snopes

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flight.htm

Snopes apologized to Michael Moore for criticizing him wrongly. Pretty impressive.

Saudis were allowed to fly within the US while other planes were grounded: True

Saudis were allowed to leave the country while other planes were grounded: Undetermined

[Bertha Venation]

15. THANKS TO ALL

Thanks very much.

[KurtNYC]

18. If there was one lie they would sue

or they would hound Moore until he "apologized."

Most of the "lies" your friend "knows" are in the movie are just the distractions created by the RW. The facts cited by the movie are in line with facts from other, Whitehouse-firendly, sources.

Does your friend "know" that Bush would not ignore a memo entitled "bin laden determined to strike within U.S." Or is Condi Rice a liar also? Does your friend know that Bush was not obsessed with invading Iraq when he took office or is Richard Clark also a liar?

[AlinPA]

19. Friend? You are very tolerant.

[tandot]

20. I think his main point about the Saudis and bin Ladens leaving

the same day the flight ban was lifted was that they should have been held and interviewed extensively. Wasn't one of the bin Laden brothers who left on 9/13 at a wedding of one of Osama's sons in Afghanistan shortly before 9/11?

How can you let relatives of bin Laden leave the country right after 9/11?

[Gin]

23. In the movie the flight mainfest was dated 9-13....check out this site..

print it out and show it to your co-worker.

<http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/2004/homelandsecur... >

[ArtieBoy]

28. My friend says all elections are rigged so who cares?

I just saw this movie for the third time with a friend. This friend was open to the movie, and on the way out he said he thought it was very factual.

However, he also said that he thought any administration had corruption and old-boy backscratching if you looked close enough. He went on to say that it was easy to say how things should be in hindsight, and who wouldn't have been for the war when both sides of the aisles lined up for it? Beyond that he said all elections are probably rigged and nothing you can do will really make a difference.

My guess was that he must have been for the war, then had doubts, then this movie made up his mind. However the punchline of this movie for him and probably many others is, "You were a sucker." So he has to absolve himself of guilt for having "fallen for it," so he lets himself off by saying, "It's all out of our hands and there's thing you can do anyhow."

We sat in the parking lot debating this for two-and-a-half hours! I hope I'm not sunburned.

[Justitia]

30. I get this same cognitive dissonance!

They just throw up their hands and submit to fate!
It makes me nuts.
I try to explain to them that what they just voiced is actually a tactical strategy - if people don't believe their vote matters, it will supress votes - this is a STRATEGY.
Then I tell them to not fall for it (again, in most cases).

[zbdent]

29. Point out that all of the lies are from

the Clips of Bush, Cheney, etc.

All of the opinions are Moore's.

Tell your friend to provide you with the evidence that it didn't happen. HAVE HER TO SHOW IT IN A BOOK, or have her provide the date & show that it appeared on. Then she could prove to you (ha, ha) via the actual video or transcript.