Bet gone awry...Please Help

[stilladeaniac]

I am looking for information to refute a bet a coworker and I had about the size of the Iraqi Army during the Persian Gulf War.

My PNAC coworker contended that Iraq was the 4th largest army in the world at that time leading up to the gulf war and got me to bet $10. (I thought it was an easy bet.)

He has provided many sources that say the generic statement "4th largest army in the world" with the data always originating from the Bush Sr. administration. So here I am, coming to ask the experts. Is this statement true? Or did Bush Sr. exaggerate Iraq troop size? Links would help.

[GOPisEvil]

1. In 1991? I believe it was the 4th largest army in the world.

However, the drop-off from 3 to 4 was IMMENSE.

[wryter2000]

2. Welcome to DU

I'm still a Deaniac, too.

[SonofMass]

3. Tell him you were betting that the average size per soldier

(height/weight) was lower than 4th.

[trotsky]

4. I have a hard time believing that.

US
Russia
China
India
Iran
Pakistan

All of these would logically seem to me to have larger armies than Iraq even at its peak.

What kind of "data" is he presenting? Just quotes from Poppy?

[stilladeaniac]

20. He googled "largest iraq army" and showed me a few links n/t

[MadHound]

5. Hate to tell you this, but you lost your bet

Back in 1991, Iraq did field the fourth largest army in the world. It wasn't the most technilogically sophisticated army, but it was pretty big.

However by the time Bushco invaded last year, the Iraqi army was a shadow of it's former self.

[shoelace414]

6. I remember hearing that statistic back in 1991

[meegbear]

7. Dude, you owe me ...

http://www.vestedowl.com/editor_june.htm

[Tempest]

14. Great job, Meegbear

I found some information, but this cite lays it out in black and white.

[RichV]

15. Wow, interesting

Rank Country Active Duty
1 China 2,470,000
2 India 1,303,000
3 N. Korea 1,082,000
4 S. Korea 683,000
5 Iran 520,000
6 Turkey 495,000
7 U.S. 471,700
8 Iraq 429,000

From the link above.

Was the bet just on the Army, or military as a whole?

[stilladeaniac]

18. The word used was "Army" n/t

[stilladeaniac]

17. HELL YEAH! Thanks!!!

I owe you big time!!! What will suffice? my first born?

[merh]

21. Very good find...

thanks for the link - I know some that believe the 4th largest is gospel.

[rinsd]

8. It was......(nt)

[troublemaker]

9. You're not going to be happy...

the usual measurement is number of men under arms full time. If your army is a jobs program you can have a pretty big army! Nobody uses army size as a sensible marker for military power, but in narrow statistical terms your coworker may be correct. (I don't remember anyone in '91 challanging the statistic. Maybe it's right, maybe not.)

Figures are often given to say that Israel in 1949 was vastly outnumbered by the Arabs armies but Israeli actually had numerical superiority on the ground within 24 hours because almost the entire fit population was in an efficient reserve corps. Their army was small, but not small... it's really a book-keeping thing.

Iraq may well have had the 4th greatest number of men under arms full time in 1991, but the did not have the world's fourth most powerful military, which was the implication intended at the time.

[wurzel]

10. May be largest in numbers of soldiers. But badly equipped.

[bobthedrummer]

11. Your co-worker won your $10-in 1991 Iraq was the 4th largest army

Try Jane's Defence for links.

[MsFlorida]

12. 8th does seem more reasonable

What are you going to do with the $10 you won? I would buy lottery tickets figure I have more of a chance winning the lottery than having my vote count in florida.

[seemslikeadream]

13. WAR CRIMES - Highway of Death

(Photo Credit: © 1991 Kenneth Jarecke / Contact Press Images)


WAR CRIMES
A Report on United States War Crimes Against Iraq to the Commission of Inquiry for the International War Crimes Tribunal

by Ramsey Clark and Others



Incinerated body of an Iraqi soldier on the "Highway of Death," a name the press has given to the road from Mutlaa, Kuwait, to Basra, Iraq. U.S. planes immobilized the convoy by disabling vehicles at its front and rear, then bombing and straffing the resulting traffic jam for hours. More than 2,000 vehicles and tens of thousands of charred and dismembered bodies littered the sixty miles of highway. The clear rapid incineration of the human being suggests the use of napalm, phosphorus, or other incindiary bombs. These are anti-personnel weapons outlawed under the 1977 Geneva Protocols. This massive attack occurred after Saddam Hussein announced a complete troop withdrawl from Kuwait in compliance with UN Resolution 660. Such a massacre of withdrawing Iraqi soldiers violates the Geneva Convention of 1949, common article 3, which outlaws the killing of soldiers who "are out of combat." There are, in addition, strong indications that many of those killed were Palestinian and Kuwaiti civilians trying to escape the impending seige of Kuwait City and the return of Kuwaiti armed forces. No attempt was made by U.S. military command to distinguish between military personnel and civilians on the "highway of death." The whole intent of international law with regard to war is to prevent just this sort of indescriminate and excessive use of force.

"It has never happened in history that a nation that has won a war has been held accountable for atrocities committed in preparing for and waging that war. We intend to make this one different. What took place was the use of technological material to destroy a defenseless country. From 125,000 to 300,000 people were killed... We recognize our role in history is to bring the transgressors to justice." Ramsey Clark

Next » Preface

SOURCE:

http://deoxy.org/wc/warcrime.htm

[merh]

22. I had never seen this before. . . .

What an eye opener! So dimson learned from poppy that its okay to kill indiscriminately.

This family will burn in hell for their crimes against mankind.

:cry:

[Gothmog]

16. I remember this stat also but thought it referred to # of tanks

I remember this stat back in 1991 and thought that it referred to the number of tanks in the force. Iraq used to have a large number of tanks but they were all out of date.

[sandnsea]

19. I think it's a wash

That link above with the number of people on active duty can get you out. On the other hand, I think they also measure armies by spending and maybe that's where Iraq comes in 4th. Maybe fas.org would have that figure for 1991. We spend way way way more than any other country which means we are the largest military power, regardless of the fact that N Korea has more men "enlisted" in the military.