So I'm reading the fascinating BBV thread and the Deletes are killing me!

[trumad]

Don't know if you folks caught the "Lawsuit filed against Diebold for fraud; proceeds may fund BlackBoxVoting" thread but it's fascinating. Anger, betrayal, Deceit, money, Agent Mike's back, Gun Nuts, etc..etc..etc... It's great reading especially if you've followed the BBV story from the beginning.

I literally can't wait to read the responses to each post from the players who have contributed most to BBV. Problem is that replies are getting deleted left and right. Two of the main players had their post and reply deleted! DAMN! That would have been the best part. It's like reading John Gresham and finding every other page torn out. This is not your everyday thread here at DU and I can only hope that the Mods use playoff rules and allow the players to play.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1960084

[Stephanie]

1. Thanks for pointing it out

I don't know what to think about that email. And from what you're saying, I never will. The good news, I THINK, is that the issue has now moved on to the national stage and is no longer in the hands of individuals.

[Kelvin Mace]

65. And thank God

for that!!

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com

[theivoryqueen]

2. It's a DU soaper!

complete with Black Box Barbie!

[trumad]

3. Black Box Barbie

too funny!

[yowzayowzayowza]

4. You can get ...

the tenor / substance of post 3 from 32 & 43. Bev's post, 23, included March's statement from <that> site with an addition by her stating basically that which I repeated in post 61. It seems any direct reference to <that> site is getting nuked for some reason.

Hope that helps.

[hang a left]

6. ooooooooooooh that iiiiiiiiiiis interesting now.

[trumad]

8. That's too bad

because it's an important part of the story. I find it hard to simply skirt past this guys bullshit....

[yowzayowzayowza]

18. Chk yer PMz

n/t

[Trajan]

20. Funny thing about 'that' site ....

thehighroad.org is a favorite of 'Democrat' gun 'aficiandos' in the Gungeon (Justice/Public Safety Forum, AKA J/PS AKA Gungeon) ....

There are quite a few 'highroaders' who hang out in J/PS: preaching the gospel of unlimited guns and otherwise staying clear of politically polarizing threads .... I assume it's to protect their DU 'creds' ...

I know some of those highroaders who ARE honest-to-goodness Democrats .... but not a whole lot ...

[T Town Jake]

28. Funny "thing" about your post...

...it's just a cheap way to say that you suspect that the pro-Second Amendment posters in the Gungeon are largely made up of trolls and/or Freepers. Care to be specific? Name names, provide proof? I won't hold my breath waiting on that one...<snicker>...

[Trajan]

36. I've a right to my opinion ...

And I think that position is justified by a few years of direct observation ...

You, or course, have a right to possess an opposing position ....

I would invite others to go to the Gungeon and make up their own minds ....

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[trumad]

7. As David said in a post, I always thought that TFHP is indeed an Agent

but also an important part of the debate. If he is Diebolds agent at least we got their side of things through him...

[CaTeacher]

9. BTW

what does the term "tombstoned" mean? Dead? Banned?

[yowzayowzayowza]

10. If you look at the profile...

of a banned user, it shows a tombstone.

[CaTeacher]

30. Thanks

I couldn't figure....

[WilliamPitt]

11. Egads

It's a rhubarb.

[trumad]

12. That's an understatement...

BTW: Isn't past your bedtime?

[Trajan]

14. Mmmmmmm ....

Pie ....

[hunter]

60. In the oven.

Lots of rhubarb pies cooking. It's hot. It's late. Some of the cooks are leaving the kitchen. Some of them are returning. Some of them insist on using their own stoves. Some of them don't. Some of them want to be paid, some of them need to be paid, some of them don't care if they are paid.

Mmmmmmm. Pie......

[ParanoidPat]

62. LOL!

I can always count on you! :toast: :evilgrin:

[jpgray]

13. So it was about money in the end for Bev after all

Well, don't color me surprised, but feel free to color me disappointed.

[Eric J in MN]

15. Money to save democracy isn't the same as money to buy a summer house (nt)

nt

[jpgray]

17. So this lawsuit will remove all Diebold machines?

Or will it just make someone a boatload of money?

[AP]

23. It will recover the money counties paid to Diebold.

70-85% will go to the counties (depending on whether their counties join the law suit).

I didnt' see anyone else starting these suits.

The legislatures which passed qui tam statutes created a financial incentive for the whistelblowers for precisely this reason.

Often it takes a whistleblower to get justice because the reason you have the problem in the first place: because the government doesn't have the balls to take on the tortfeasor (or is complicit). And how many whistelblowers have the resources to wage and effective legal battle if not for getting some money from the suit? Not many. Not any, probably.

If you think 15/30% is too much, take it up with your legislatures. It's not Bev's fault this is where they set the financial incentive.

Does anyone really think Bev was wrong to take advantage of this potential remedy? How would you feel if it were available and she DIDN'T take advantage of it. How does it make her more noble NOT to take Diebold to court when nobody else is. Who else is going to make Diebold pay? The local governments which are signing away their taxpayer money for these crappy machines?

Bev is taking all the risk. She'll incur the legal bills if she looses. If you're upset with this, Diebold loves you, because this is the only way they're going to be forced to pay back all the money they made from these contracts.

[jpgray]

26. Her zeal in assaulting others who might consider such a suit is revealing

She wanted the bounty for herself. Open your eyes, people--why do this hypocritical calling out of folks all over the place about the very thing you yourself are planning to do? Why give out quotes like this concerning why the Qui Tam was wrong unless you are trying to save the pie for yourself?

"When we discussed it amongst ourselves, we each independently came to the conclusion that doing this for money was the wrong thing to do.

"We aren't soiling ourselves with Qui Tam money. Go for it. And if you don't end up disappeared (because remember, Ashcroft gets a full 60 days when you can't even tell people what you know or that you filed the case), and if under some bizarre circumstance Ashcroft appoints a federal judge who will actually treat your case fairly (hah!), and if you stand up to what is sure to be a relentless attempt to destroy your credibility in every way, and if your evidence proves your case, you will split up a few hundred million dollars."

When there is lots of money to be made, the cause is a means to an end. So they will attempt to get their bounty, and if they do they will drop it, and that will be that.

[yowzayowzayowza]

29. There is also a timing issue here.

I believe the possibility of this Ca state Qui Tam come up AFTER the discussion you mention.

[AP]

33. So? Bev can defend herself.

But, for the sake of argument, say she misled people she recruited, and she was motivated by the qui tam suit all along? So what?

Bev only wins if the case wins. Isn't that what everyone wants? The case to win? And Bev's personality has no influence on the merits of the case.

People who get things done often leave a wake fo disappointed people behind them, but I'll judge them by whether they get things done. I can't wait to see how the suit unfolds.

[yowzayowzayowza]

35. plus or minus..

whatever the factual/personal requirements for her "standing" in the suit. Yes?

[AP]

39. I don't understand your question.

[yowzayowzayowza]

45. Oops...

see below.

[yowzayowzayowza]

43. My understanding is that those bringing the suit...

must prove "whistleblower" status or that they have independently developed the data to support the claim. What type/level of discovery is available to the defendants regarding her claim and person?

[AP]

48. Still not clear.

I don't know what standing you need to have whistleblower status. Are you asking whether they can challenge her legal standing to sue?

I have no doubt they can. And surely they can get discovery order to get facts from her that they need to prove she doesn't have standing, but I can't imagine what they would need to see of hers to prove she doesn't have standing, but then, like I said, I have no idea how this statute works. I looked at it yesterday for the first time.

(She's also makign a claim under unfair competition law, or soemthing like that, but that statute presumably doesn't allow the tripple damages the qui tam statute allows.)

[AP]

32. Look, it's not like I was going to go out and sue anybody. And so

what if she was territorial about the information she gathered? She gathered it. And who can blame her for not trusting people she met on the internet.

Bev may or may not be the most paranoid, greedy person in America. But I don't think that's going to have make one iota of a difference in these law suits. Her lawyer will present the best case possible, and it will win or lose on its merits.

If it wins, I can't think of anyone else who deserves 15-30% of millions of dollars more.

The internet is full of talkers (or typers) and not enough doers. You all are now confronted with a real doer who just might do a lot of people a big favor, and you're all hung up on her personality. Channel your energy. Bev should really motivate you to get out and try to get things done, rather than just sit around and type about things.

[jpgray]

34. The money is more important to her than the voting machines themselves

That's the pattern of her behavior. You can contort yourself however you like trying to justify it. But when two plaintiffs profit to the tune of millions when the work of dozens or perhaps hundreds is what allowed them to take that step, don't look at me to pin the hero sash on the brigands that pulled it off.

[AP]

38. Thank god for Qui Tams. If there wasn't money in this, perhaps she'd be

working on some national roll-out of a new liquid detergent.

The person who had his or her eyes on the financial prize was always going to be the one who would take this project closest to success.

I hope that financial carrot means that we see a vigorous prosecution of these issues with all the resources the defendant will inevitably have.

Those dozens or hundreds, by the way, were the ones here who argued that there should be no financial incentive. They were the ones who wanted to have legal aid lawyers bring these suits (if they were going to have lawyers at all), or expected the best lawyers in America to drop everything and work for free ("Gary Spence will take this case for no money, I'm sure!!!"). These were the people who thought they could put in an hour a week on BBV in between carring for their kids and working tow jobs.

If those people controlled the fate of BBV, it would have gone nowhere. Ambition and a big carrot are good motivations, not bad motivations.

[jpgray]

42. Oh yes. Where would Gandhi have been without his millions?

There are altrusitic roads to protecting people from the monsters out there, and simply put this is not one of them. In the absence of such good people it may be better to have the others, but don't try to tell me that the good person doesn't exist at all.

[AP]

47. Are the rules you've set for your life? What have you achieved?

Incidentally, Ghandi had a TON of economic and political power. He had a couple hundred million people willing to spin their own cloth and march to the sea to make salt.

Without some economic power, BBV would go nowhere. Gary Spence doesn't work for free and people will spend time selling soap rather than trying to find out what happens when you touch a screen to vote.

I really don't think it's my place to defend Bev. But the naivety here is striking.

(I spell dozens of words wrong in my posts, but I assume you meant naivity...)

[jpgray]

49. One should learn how to spell a word before attacking another with it

But Gandhi didn't simply file a lawsuit and personally profit to the tune of millions of dollars--such things did not motivate him, and yet he still was able to make a difference. Your assertions that doing good is only possible with a substantial financial reward at the end therefore aren't borne out by history. Yes, these are rules I've set for my life, and I feel pity for anyone who puts up a lower standard for themselves.

[AP]

53. Gandhi was actually a lawyer who got paid for filing sutis, until he

wratcheted it up a couple notches by harnessing even more powerful politcal and economic power.

I

[jpgray]

55. Did his work for the people gain him personal wealth in the millions?

No. In Gandhian terminology, being poor is better than being rich. He lived simply in a hut made of mud, bamboo and grass. Did he have the opportunity to acheive such wealth? Yes. There is the difference between true altruism and what Bev is doing. In my view, the former is much more worthy of praise.

[AP]

57. Social change should open to more people than just the Gandhis.

Look, Bev's no Gandhi. I'll grant you that. But if we waited around for Gandhis to come along and bring these suits, we'll be waiting a long time, and by then the voting machine companies just might be running the whole country by then.

Gandhi also decided he'd stop having sex, without consulting his wife.

[jpgray]

59. That is all I have been saying since my first post here

You don't have to live in a grass hut to do what's right, either. And Bev, with her energy and imagination, could have found money in any number of other ventures--it is perhaps better for all of us that she found it this way. I just have a distaste for this sort of thing, and I probably should not have even aired it. Diebold and BBV in general are extremely important to remove from our elections, and I'd rather have a thousand Bevs working on it than wait for some loin-clothed fellow to fix everything. I'm just disappointed, is all. Call me an idealist. :)

[Kelvin Mace]

67. So, I must have been the biggest sap on the planet

for not having cashed in?

I mean, handing out 35,000+ free PDF versions of the book when I could have sold it. Why did I have to worry about folks who said I was in it to sell books? I should have just said that there was nothing wrong with profiting from my activism and made everyone pay for it.

And then I turned down about dozen paying projects to work on this just because I thought it was critically important that people be told about the threat of these voting machines.

Doh!

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com

[ParanoidPat]

61. One thing wrong with your post......

You claim, "The money is more important to her than the voting machines themselves that's the pattern of her behavior". I beg to differ.
If you would like, I can send you a couple of hundred stories, interviews, articles and Op Ed pieces that Bev had a hand in and in none of them did the issue of how much money she could make come up. It would seem the overall pattern of her actions actually was about beating these machines.

If you truly believe that she did all of this just to get rich on the long shot possibility that they will win this suit I've got a mountain retreat in Florida I'd like to sell you. :)

[Kelvin Mace]

66. Well, Jim March

made absolutely no secret of the fact that he's out for the money. He's bragging about it, in fact.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com

[stickdog]

73. 'That's the pattern of her behavior.' = THP

No.

It isn't.

She worked her ass off for free. She put the issue first. That much is clear.

Micheal Moore has made millions off of Fahrenheit 9/11. Shall we string him up as well?

[stickdog]

71. I'm not excusing her actions. But it appears to me that she was simply

externalizing an internal struggle.

Then she found a way to do it without getting gagged so she went for it.

It's not pretty, but it happens all the time in interpersonal relationships. Yes, I am wondering why she thought it would fly without a few mea culpas, but that certainly doesn't mean Bev is out for the money. You simply don't do what she did -- for years -- unless it's principle.

[yowzayowzayowza]

76. Bingo!

n/t

[Hekate]

16. Money pays the bills, fella

Please. Is the lady independently wealthy?
I thought not.
In addition, when it comes to lawsuits, dollars are tokens in the game. The richer the entity being sued, the more money it takes to get their attention and for them to notice they're being punished. Etcetera.

Hekate

[jpgray]

19. You folks have been had, and I'm sorry, at least.

If all the partisans want to pile on, they can. I won't make a sound.

[ParanoidPat]

63. It's a damn good thing you didn't get hurt over this!

Aren't you glad you didn't donate any money or lift a finger to help? :evilgrin:

Boy what SUCKERS we all are! :)

[stickdog]

74. You are funny. (nt)

[Kelvin Mace]

68. I'm not wealthy either

but I am having to pay my own legal bills while Bev's lawyer (who works for free) tries to bully me into surrendering my rights on the book and trying to sieze my web site.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com

[Trajan]

22. I think that is too simplistic ...

The movement needs resources, and to imply that she will be 'enriched' by this ordeal fails to recognize the cost of such endeavors ...

I have NO objection to what has happened, as long as it meets the goals that benefit ALL citizens ... FAIR and HONEST voting systems for the american electorate ... As an executive of such an organization, she would be entitled to fair compensation ...

Keep it FAIR: .. Keep it HONEST: ... and do your duty ...

[trumad]

24. Trajan, I agree with you to a point

but sometimes the end doesn't justify the means.... Right now I'm pissed at what this dude is spewing our way and I'm equally pissed that Bev just sits back and says nothing....

[jpgray]

25. So they get 30% bounty on the settlement

Which will likely be in the tens of millions of dollars. Wait, I hear something, like an echo in my mind:

"When we discussed it amongst ourselves, we each independently came to the conclusion that doing this for money was the wrong thing to do."

[AP]

27. I would say, doing it ONLY for the money would be the wrong thing.

But, whistelblowers didnt' write these statutes. Legislatures did. I think it would be crazy not to bring these suits when the law allows it, when the will recover taxpayer money, and when nobody else is doing it.

[jpgray]

31. So why attack others just for having a slim possibility to file the same?

That's what smells, forget whatever good may come of it. The actions line up to 'I want money.' Maybe she really cares about this, and maybe she doesn't. If Diebold and other machines go down as a result, it will be worth it. But the behavior here is pretty base, whatever its results.

[AP]

37. Hypothetical: perhaps because she felt she had done 99% of the work,

was taking all the risk, and started to feal a little paranoid that people who were using her data were going to steal her project? Ie, it's no different than any other enterprise -- except it was even more risky for Bev, because you can't patent or copyright a qui tam action.

Look, BBV isn't even a partisan issue. There are a lot of Democrats who want BBV. Does that make you feel differently about BBV? Bev's loyalty is might not be partisan. Bothered? Doesn't everyone agree that it's still worthwile to have every vote counted? Bev might even need a little hysteria about BBV to get people on board. That could hurt Dems if people don't think their vote will count. Bothered? Isnt' BBV bigger than even that? Maybe she gets funding from a Diebold competitor. Would that really bother you? It wouldn't change the fact that this issue is going to court, and if Diebold did something wrong, no of that would matter. Motivation is one thing. Results is a different matter.

That this has gone as far as it has is probably directly correlated with the fact that there are motivations some people will resent.

[jpgray]

40. Bev's actions are not noble

That's as far as I've gone here--you appear to want me to recognize that the ends justify the means. Well, you'll have to wait a while before I do such a thing. If you're telling me a purely financial lawsuit with outrageous profit to two plaintiffs is the only way to solve the problems voting machines pose, I don't buy it. If you're telling me that there are other ways, but this way is the nobler one, I don't buy that either. If you agree that there are other ways and ones more noble than this exist, why are you arguing with me? That's all I had to say in the first place. May the ends be better than the deplorable means.

[AP]

44. Bev's actions were probably the only actions which would get BBV as far

as it has gone.

And Bev's strategy, whether good or bad, has nothing to do with the merits of the case.

And anyone who thinks they have enough evidence (that they didn't recieve under an agreement with Bev not to use for a qui tam) can bring their own suits for millions.

Is anyone stepping forward? Didn't think so. Nobody has spent the time Bev has spent and understands the issues as well.

BTW, if you think the profit is "outrageous" you need to talk to your legislature, because their the ones who set the %s. Bev didn't write those statutes. And what do you expect her to do? Not sue because the potential damages are so big, her statutory share would be outrageous? Blame Diebold and the governments who signed those contracts for all that money if you thing 15%-30% of a lot of money is a lot of money.

[jpgray]

46. But they are not noble

And therefore I feel I have a right to call them as they are. You have a right, as you have done in the past with people such as Tony Blair, to apply the greatest and noblest of motivations to some truly deplorable actions. But don't expect me to agree with you, or take part in your fevered rationalizations. There doesn't need to be a substantial cash settlement for one to do the right thing, and to work hard for the right thing. Dennis Kucinich has been doing such things all his years in Congress, and his house isn't any larger than my own.

[AP]

51. Not trusting people you only know from the internet isn't noble?

How many of us would pass that test?

If you notice, the one person who made it through to this point with Bev was Andrew S. -- a guy who didn't just talk the talk. He walked the walk. Anyone surprised that the talkers are upset?

Again, I don't want to be in a postition where I'm defending Bev if she isn't defending herself. But I just feel this the very obvious second side of this story, and I'm surprised that people are so outraged.

BTW, Kucinich has a reputation in Cleveland, incidentally, of stepping in at the last minute and taking credit for things he didn't start and didn't help further. Is that noble?

[jpgray]

56. Did he acquire vast wealth in arguing against the war since Febuary 2002?

No. Did he need that impetus to do it? No. There is the difference, again, between Bev and those who truly believe in those causes for which they fight. You don't fight for what's right and accidentally fall into vast wealth along the way--you have to work at that.

[AP]

58. If you're waiting on the next Gandhi to sue Diebold, will probably all die

before anybody gets any justice.

And that doesnt' change the fact that you can't get anythign done without power. Gandhi has power. Naive DU'ers whou think Gary Spence is going to work for them for free do NOT have power.

[Trajan]

50. This is NOT a purely financial lawsuit ....

Money is a secondary issue ... DIVIDE the question ...

1) DID Diebold violate the law and defraud the various Counties in the State of California ?? ...

2) What penalties shall be enforced against Diebold, and how ill they be disbursed ? ...

WE are most concerned with the FIRST question ... The Second question will be decided according to established legal precedent ...

While some may complain about the purity of the cause when money is involved, the nature of the cause isnt altered by the inclusion of a monetary award for the plaintiffs ....

Jim March's comments are gross mischaracterizations of what DU members believe and which political beliefs they possess: typical right wing strawman fallacies one can find at the thehighroad.org (casts a quick glance to a previous post) .... Jim March can go to hell as far as I'm concerned, and so can his fellow highroaders who spew the same BS ... but even THIS doesnt change the nature of the cause > REMOVING THE DEFECTIVE VOTING SYSTEMS FROM USE IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE ...

Bev, along with others, have fought selflessly for this cause ... IF she falls into a windfall in this case, I will not complain ... It isnt my place to complain about someone who has worked tirelessly for a cause to be rewarded for that work ... SO be it: it is the law .... I dont know all the details about what was said between this and that person over the months ... May the stars fall on my head if I spent that much time here .... nevertheless: Bev's intent has been clear throughout the last year and a half: she has bucked very powerful interests, and has stood fast .... she did that for US ....

I am not pleased by the infighting OR the crass bullheaded comments from Mr. March and his ilk, but there is no doubt that Diebold and ES&S MUST be stopped .... and THIS just may do that ....

It aint pretty ... but it must be done, some way ...

[trumad]

52. good for you and I applaud you for those comments

now...if we can here Bev refute his bullshit comments as well it might go a long way around here....

[jpgray]

54. Again, may the ends be better than the means

I wholly agree with that. Bev's action fails to meet my standards of what is right, but this doesn't mean she can't do what she is doing, or shouldn't--I have only stated my opinion, and it doesn't count as anything more than just that.

[Kelvin Mace]

69. But she didn't do 99% of the work and

no one was trying to steal her data.

David Allen
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com
Publisher, CEO, Janitor

[Cookie wookie]

77. The truth will set you free,

which is the point. The information Harris circulated and published came not only from her research but from the labor of others who were working behind the scenes, while she was out front. That posters to this board seem for the most part unaware of that, exemplified by the post about Harris doing 99% of the work. What exact percentage of the work was hers and theirs I don't know. But it would be fair to say that a significant portion of the vital research, particularly having to do with with the technical aspects, was contributed to her by others. Line-by-line analysis of the code and its significance - contributed by others. Information about bbv in other states - contributed by others. And so forth.

What is most impressive is that so many of the major players are unrecognized. If any of the documentaries are made that have been in the works, like the one by Drew Barrymore, I hope that people may get to see a few of the faces of leading activists from around the country and get to know the great personal sacrifice and spirit that has exemplified activists in this movement. I hope that film doesn't end up on the cutting room floor, while footage of Harris takes center stage (everyone loves a star, I guess . . ). I hope that happens, not only because they deserve credit (which they would not like to hear me say, as they are for the most part a modest bunch), but because they are truly inspirational characters in this fight to preserve our democracy. Although I personally only know about a dozen from my state, I know that others like them have labored long and hard and have been unwilling to ever give up, even in the face of overwhelming odds.

The work of some of these activists was hurt by her Harris' accusations, for instance when some tried to work with contacts, there was a cloud of suspicion that undermined their efforts, even with the press.

[stickdog]

75. If they were suing a nuke plant for dumping waste in the water, would you

hate them for that, too?

[yowzayowzayowza]

21. Thread on <that> site:

fyi:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=05d5fba034e40cbf9c4c213431e80e9b&threadid=90961

[WillyT]

41. Think I'll Wait For The Book... The Movie... And Definitely, The Election

Too much drama for me.

:shrug:

[althecat]

64. Glad you find it amusing Trumad... to be honest so do I...

Mind you I can understand why so many other folks don't.

Personally I don't begrudge Bev her Qui Tam and nor do I think it is proof she is doing it only for money.

She isn't she has worked her guts out for a long time and risked everything. Plus in terms of pure IP she did a great deal of the work... even if others helped. In truth probably more than anyone else - plus she took on the role of Quasi leader - so all power to her.

Moreover in my mind Qui Tam is arguably the best way to fight these particular bad guys. If any form of law had a perfect application then this would be it for BBV.. and it is much better that it is Bev doing it.. who we know is committed to the cause than some treasure hunter.

I always said that and so in one sense I am a bit pleased... seems Bev followed my advice.

That said..

What got a lot of folks goats is that at about the same time this Qui Tam was filed Bev was.

1. Telling everybody that Qui Tam was evil and bad for the cause.

and

2. Accusing a bunch of folks of filing Qui Tam when they weren't.

There is a word for this kind of thing... and from what I understand Eloriel's deleted post was making this point.

Bottom line.

She and a bunch of other folk would like an apology. But I doubt they are planning on holding their breath waiting.

P.S. Bev... if you read this, please don't take this the wrong way. I am not angry with you personally. Just a little surprised. I thought a long time about not posting anything. But you know me.. can't keep my mouth shut.

[ConsAreLiars]

70. Remember that this Qui Tam is not being filed under the restrictions

that were in place for federal and other state Qui Tam suits that essentially required the plaintiffs to withdraw from the battle in order to proceed with the suit.

Bev said that accepting this condition would be a betrayal. She was right, but this condition was not imposed in the suit she and Jim have filed. She also decried filing such a suit when money was the motive. Again, she was right. Those who claim that this was her motive for her BBV work all along attribute to her an amazing ability to see into the future, or claim for themselves extraordinary psychic abilities. More likely, they simply oppose progress on the BBV challenge.

And, fwiw, Jim March has offered to put others who have the capacity to file such suits in other states in touch with their lawyer, the guy who figured out how to negate the usual (give up and shut up) restrictions on such plaintiffs.

[OKNancy]

72. What do you think of this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1960084#1981160