The coming divide of our nation

[Stuckinthebush]

I have come to believe that our nation is so polarized by region, religion, politics, and social issues, that we can't hang on much longer. If Kerry wins, the right wing will go berserk. Imagine what will happen if we take back the Senate and/or House. They will not be able to handle the minority position again. Furthermore, the Dems will immediately dismantle their "reforms" that were enacted over the past 4 years. These "reforms" are designed to move this nation to a more restrictive, pro-rich, pro-fundamentalist Christianity, anti-intellectual nation. They will see all of their hard work go down the drain.

I'm afraid that those States that are firmly in the right-wing column will start making noises about seceding. I don't think we will see a violent civil war, however, but more of an opting out of the US to form a Christian Nation.

As I view the polls and watch my home state of Alabama and other Southern and mid-western states overwhelmingly support Bush, I must come to the conclusion that the majority of the population in these states care more about the ideology of Bush than about the health of our nation and constitution. We are all becoming more reactionary, and I'm afraid this spells eventual doom to our country.

Does anyone see this trend reversing in the future or is the polarization only going to get worse?

[salinen]

1. Christianity is a form of

fascism by consent. It favors the control of individual thought and action. The Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Declaration of Independence, are all documents that run counter to a ChristoFascist mindset.

And no, I can't come up with a reason why or how this trend will reverse.

Bye Bye U.S.A.

[Terran]

59. Real Christianity

is nothing like what you say it is. It is, in fact, the opposite of what you say it is. I'm not disagreeing that that is the practice of it for a lot of people, but a lot more will regard what you say with horror and contempt.

[Pegleg Thd]

2. Any group or state formed by the repukes

will NOT be 'christian'.

[Stuckinthebush]

4. You are correct

But they will use that term. Real Christians should be disgusted by the actions and words of many in the GOP.

[GreenPartyVoter]

20. Real Christians

are very much freaked out over the GOP and it's actions, believe me!

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[Stuckinthebush]

31. My father is a Presbyterian minister

He gets real pissed when he hears what he calls "faux" Christians speak. He has said a number of times that "we have to get the name back from the crazed right wing!"

[GreenPartyVoter]

42. Well the web is a very good way to do that. I have found

that the liberal Christians page of my site is by far the most frequently accessed one.

Has your dad given a thought to blogging? We can use more folks put their thoughts up online.

[Stuckinthebush]

45. I have to upload his digital pictures to his computer for him

I can't imagine explaining how to blog!

[GreenPartyVoter]

46. Well, get him started by teaching him how to

reply to other blog entries so that he can at least get his two cents out there. :)

[lanparty]

53. Fauxndamentalists !!!!

I'm trying to get the name to stick dammit!!!!

[indepat]

77. Good to hear for I suspect my so many times ggrandfather who founded

Presbyterianism in what became these United States would be proud of any Presbyterian minister who opposed the "crazed right wing."

[Stuckinthebush]

81. I bet we are related

:D

[indepat]

82. The relationship is on a maternal ggf line; he was Greenberry Little

born about 1820, had sons who fought and died in the Civil War, one for the North, one for the South, and my maternal grandmother, born in 1890, died in 1977, some 113 years after her half-brothers were killed.

[Wind Dancer]

49. So true, we are not dealing with "Real Christians."

The republican party has destroyed the true meaning of this religion which promotes peace, love and respect to others.


Hannity, Rush and the like, preach hatred nonstop along with most of the republican party. It's a disgrace!

http://www.interfaithalliance.org/About/AboutList.cfm?c=101

A poignant letter by Walter Chronkite.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

76. To quote

Al Sharpton 'The christian right and the right Christians.'

[Tweed]

3. Name any Midwestern state with OVERWHELMING support for Bush

I'm curious about this one.

[Stuckinthebush]

5. Oklahoma, Kansas, South Dakota

Would these better be described as heartland states instead of Midwestern?

[Tweed]

7. Yeah, in my view at least. People can disagree, but when I think Midwest

I think Wisconsin, Illinois, Missouri, Minnesota, Indiana, Ohio, and Michigan. All those states are toss ups with Illinois being solidly Dem and Indiana being solidly Rep. I guess when you throw in Kansas, Nebraska, the Dakotas, and Oklahoma, then yeah, you have states who so overwhelming Bush. The true Midwest is half Christian and liberal and half Christian and conservative.

[lanparty]

54. Plains, intermountain ...

Minnesota, Iowa and Missouri are the western most boundries of the "midwest". Don't forget that the "west" was considered anything west of the Mississippi river.

[Stuckinthebush]

56. It always feels strange

to call Kansas and Oklahoma "West". I guess in the early 1800s, that was pretty darn west, though.

[BillZBubb]

34. Indiana

for one. Is that enough?

[lanparty]

55. Don't be so sure ...

Indiana consistently elects Democratic governors. I strongly believe that Indiana is IN PLAY this election season. I think pretty much ANY state except Virginia nd Mississippi is "in play" this time around.

[Stuckinthebush]

58. Alabama = not in play

But I can dream!

I had a conversation with a guy at the Birmingham Kerry headquarters the other day and we were talking about the futility of it all in the state. He said that from an optimistic viewpoint, Gore got 41% of the vote here and never set foot in the state. Clinton won it in 1996.

Of course, that is very optimistic. We don't have a Perot this time.

[lanparty]

83. But you do have John Edwards ...

And if I'm not mistaken he has the same clout as Clinton did.

[merh]

85. Mississippi isn't in play

:cry:

[TransitJohn]

6. I'll tell you

that Wyoming would be much more likely to secede because of "onerous" environmental and land policies than religion.

[natrat]

71. whatever

you can cut down whats left of your forests as of yesterday

[Ganja Ninja]

8. I think your getting a little carried away here.

I don't think we're headed for civil war if Kerry wins. I figure the GOP can placate the radical right for only so long before it begins to break up. The more loonies on the right call for a separate state the closer we get to that day when the GOP can no longer hold together as one party. Think of their insanity as a positive development, the end of a unified right wing.

[Stuckinthebush]

15. Yes...I don't think Kerry winning will spell civil war

I do think it may be the beginning of a right wing reaction that will have devastating consequences.

[rniel]

9. Good

Maybe they should all go to texas and we'll take the rest of the country. There's already lots of conservatives there so it would be an easier move for them.

[UdoKier]

10. I would love it if the South would secede.

They can have their fascist theocracy and we can have a democratic republic. Maybe we could finally pass single-payer health care.

I don't see why it has to spell doom - wouldn't a lot of the right wing also like to peacably secede?

The ultra-right wingers in states outside of the south would be faced with the choice of remaining in a secular democracy or moving to a fascist theocracy.


Hey, maybe we could have a "cold war" between the two nations, thus sparing the rest of the world our intervention and invasions.


(Okay, I was getting a bit tongue-in-cheek at the end there...)

[Stuckinthebush]

14. Can I come live with you?

41% of Alabamians voted for Gore, so there are a lot of us who will need a place to live.

[Bettie]

26. Oooh if the South seceded they could have their dream....

They would also have de-facto slavery, with large populations of an undereducated underclass right there, easily exploited.

I just don't get these people.

[EndElectoral]

39. All Northern Repubs wold be exiled to the new Aryan nation

[playahata1]

40. Many of us Southern progressives are in no position to leave the South,

let alone have any desire to do so. Thus, we are stuck here with the Rednecks and the Jesus Freaks who would only be so happy to put people like me back in chains.

[Ganja Ninja]

47. Personally I don't think we should ever concede even one inch ...

to these a-holes. If they don't like it here we should put them on a leaky boat and let them go find a place that wants them.

[lanparty]

57. I have just the place for them ...

IRAN !!!!!

Yes, Iran is the model of what they want to turn the US into. Exchange radical Christianity with radical Islam and you have a perfect match.

[tom_paine]

11. Worse. The die has been cast and polarization is on the rise

now worse than ever.

As the Libs fight back and the outraged Moderates leap off teh bench with fists balled, the Right, like ANY vampire or murderer, will push back harder at the victim's Last Gasp.

Which, I think it's very possible that's what we represent. The Last Gasp of a Dying Republic about to be pushed under for the third and final time. We are putting our all into it, but the murderers have been strangling us while we slept and we may have awakened too late.

We awakened just in time to see the Final Death of the Old American Republic.

So, no, I don't expect it to go away. I expect the Bushevik to squeeze harder and become violent, particularly if the Law Enfrocement Freeps and Patrick Henry Nazi monsters can force Sea Changes giving Freepes the protection of the KKK in 1935 Mississippi.

And we have no idea how close they are to that.

DOES THIS MEAN I AM GIVING UP? HELL NO! VOLUNTEER FOR KERRY! WORK FOR KERRY! DONATE TO KERRY! DO THE SAME FOR CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATES! I WILL NOT GIVE UP BECAUSE WHAT IF MY ASSESSMENT IS WRONG? NEVER GIVE UP!

[AndyTiedye]

36. That is my greatest fear as well.

> I expect the Bushevik to squeeze harder and become violent,
> particularly if the Law Enfrocement Freeps and Patrick Henry Nazi
> monsters can force Sea Changes giving Freepes the protection of the
> KKK in 1935 Mississippi.

People here assume that all the RW militia types will fight the regime.
Sore are staunchy libertarian and may just do that.
But many of them are Fundies. Many are bigots, some are actual KKK.
It is far more likely they will throw in with the usurper and turn
their guns on us (which is what they have been wanting to do all along).

[tom_paine]

38. Exactly. They wlll HELP Tyrannical Monsters

because their militia-ness was NEVER about protecting freedom only THEIR freedom.

When the time comes, the vast majority of them will help Fill the Camps and Fire the Ovens (or whatever it will be this time around).

there is absolutely NO doubt...ZERO...in my mind on this.

RW militias aren;t inetersted in freedom. They are interested in finding the Right Fuhrer* to follow.

[porphyrian]

12. Interesting, if depressing, points...

However, I don't really believe that they have the numbers that they appear to have. Remember, most of the polls that show "overwhelming" support are only of people who have voted (though some include potential voters), who can be reached by telephone and who agree to complete the survey on the phone.

The neocons are a loud-mouthed puffer fish. They are only a majority in their own ignorant little minds, but they shout it loud and often enough to convince some other people. Don't believe their hype.

This election will have record turnout and, barring their cheating, it will not be close at all. Once the sparkle fades and the trance of their follwers is broken, few will be brave enough to do much more than complain. The ones who are, however, may be dangerous.

[Stuckinthebush]

Your point about the polls is very valid

I often wonder how skewed the polls are because of the increasing problem of getting a good sample. Still, living in Alabama I can give you some anecdotal data that suggests that a majority of my neighbors have no problem with Bush and his actions, and they believe that he has a divine mandate to do what he will.

This comes from people who are college educated as well as not.

[porphyrian]

23. I worked for a while...

...as a computer guy at a survey research lab. The head of the lab used to always say that phone sample was going to be useless in the next few years, what with cell phones, caller ID, call blocking/screening, and, now, being able to keep your phone number regardless of your location. Anyway, her big thing was that, with all these polls, you never hear them report the response rate. That's probably because, if they did, none of this data would be worth a crap.

[AndyTiedye]

25. The More Skewed the Polls, The More Votes They Can Steal

before it becomes too obvious. Skewed polls legitimze their theft in advance,
so they really are a problem.

They make it all the more important that we deny them the means to steal massive numbers of votes.

http://www.verifiedvoting.org
http://www.truevotemd.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.org

[Stuckinthebush]

32. I never thought about it that way

something else to worry about!

[Bettie]

30. Polls

Polls can be manipulated in so many ways....

"Random" sampling is often not random.

Plus, the way the questions are worded makes a huge difference in how people answer.

I wonder if any of them are right....

[Wapsie B]

48. I agree.

"The neocons are a loud-mouthed puffer fish. They are only a majority in their own ignorant little minds, but they shout it loud and often enough to convince some other people."
That's been the m.o. of the righties for years. To bully people into thinking that they represent the wishes of the common man.
We are the majority.

The shouting from the right is only going to get worse because people are starting to see through this facade of invincibility the right has had in place for years. The best laid plans of the neocons just might not work out.

[markses]

13. The pressures are already there, and have been

And they are merely being played out at the level of identity. This is a global economic issue.

There will be no United States of America in 50 years, but rather a group of interlocking trade zones.

And this may even be for the better.

[Bridget Burke]

16. Life is a struggle.

Wishing for a civil war so you can live in a "perfect" country where everybody else is just like you is the mirror image of the "left behind" mentality. If only you didn't have to deal with anybody different, things would be so simple.

There are lots of Democrats here in Texas who aren't going anywhere. Not all of them are white yuppies who would be welcome in your utopia. Many of them have very deep roots in this land & are not afraid of a struggle.

And which state is perfect? California is a great state with a fine liberal heritage. But they gave us President Nixon & President Reagan. If only the Constitution can be changed, they might give us President Schwarzenegger!

You're wishing for many death & numerous trails of tears. Take a vacation or take some tranqs & let the rest of us deal with living in Our Land. (This land is your land, this land is my land, from California to the New York Island.)

[Stuckinthebush]

17. Whoa, partner!

I am not wishing for a civil war at all. I am suggesting that things are so polarized that we are headed for a divide. Believe me, I do not want a division. One reason is that I would be stuck in the wrong zone - but more importantly, it would be devastating to us all.

On edit:

I am taking a vacation tomorrow to Nova Scotia for 2 weeks.

[Bridget Burke]

27. The only way such a division would come about is through war.

That's the reality.

People aren't going to uproot themselves for fun.

[Stuckinthebush]

29. Valid point

but I am not wishing for it. I just wanted to make that clear.

[Jim__]

18. I agree that the country is seriously polarized.

Not many people are trying to figure out how to come together. The future ... ?

[playahata1]

41. It seems to me that people would rather focus on DIFFERENCES

instead of on WHAT THEY HAVE IN COMMON.

Why is that, I ask. Is it because PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF EACH OTHER? Therefore, they have to hide behind race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, political affiliation, ideology, social class, geography, sports teams, etc.

[sleepystudent]

43. And that includes far too many people on DU (eom)

[playahata1]

50. and your point is?

Please elaborate.

[Beam Me Up]

19. This situation has been created and is continually reinforced.

It serves the purpose of the most wealthy to have us at one another's throats. Divide and conquer.

The fact of the matter is we working class people (and by that I include white collar working class) have MUCH MORE IN COMMON than we have that divide us. HOWEVER, issues are always put before us in a contentious way. Rather than posing questions in a way that asks, "how can we resolve these differences justly and fairly," we are put in the position of having to choose ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER. We are either for or against abortion, gay marriage, executions -- you name it.

WHERE ARE THE LEADERS WHO COULD UNITE A NATION AND A CLASS OF PEOPLE AGAINST THEIR OPPRESSORS?

I'll tell you: In their graves.

[ScreamingMeemie]

21. Only if we allow it.

Only if we continue to look at our neighbors with suspicion and hate them for their politics. Only if we allow ourselves to forget that we really are all in this together... I don't think it has come to that yet. I don't see any fighting on the streets. So far I see it on the internet, but we are protected without face to face contact. The eternal optimist perhaps, but this country has been divided before, will be divided again...and I like to think we'll muddle through.

Chin up!!!

Laura

[MallRat]

22. It'll never happen. And here's why.

Check out this map.



The purple states are those which receive more federal funding than the tax revenue collected, so-called "taker states." The green states are those which are paying more tax revenue than the funding they receive from the Federal government: "giver states."

With the only exception being Texas, every single state we consider SOLID red-- the Bible Belt, the Plains states, and Big Sky country-- is a TAKER STATE. For all their harumphing about not living off the government teat, Bush's core constituents couldn't live without the generosity of the Blue states.

"Red" America would shrivel up and die without "Blue" America.

-MR

[Stuckinthebush]

24. Wow!

That is fascinating. And it is those in the "taker" states that complain about taxes so much.

[sleepystudent]

44. yeah

Like Maine, Iowa, Pennsylvania...

[rman]

33. blue America won't just disappear, no matter what

they can continue to be 'givers' (i'd say "robbed"), if not by scamming and deceiving, then by force. just look at all the wealth that has accumulated in the taker states: they are the stronger states because of it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

28. To borrow a phrase: "Bring it on!"

Living in a progressive state helps me think that seeing the conservative bits secede is a swell idea.

[Cobalt Violet]

61. I couldn't agree more.

Just think of how much better off we would be without that anti- american christian crap. We could spend money on stuff other than war. It would be such a great country if they go.

[Commendatori]

35. It'll only get worse.

We're past the point where honest dialogue is possible. Your typical Democrat thinks all Repugs are bigots / homophobes / religious zealots / haters of the poor, and your typical Repug thinks we're all socialist athiest traitors who hate America and want our soldiers to die.

The thing is that I know a lot of women who are Dems because of the abortion issue only and agree with the Repugs everywhere else. I also know Repugs who agree with Dems on everything except for guns, so they register Republican. I used to be one. I'm pro-gun, used to be a registered Republican, and voted straight-ticket GOP until 1992. Knowing more about politics now than I did then, I now vote mostly Dem, even though I'm pro-gun.

Unless we ever get to the point where a person is allowed to disagree with one issue of their party's platform without being called scum, we'll be divided as always. Even though I agree with Democrats on just about everything else, I have taken a fair amount if shit here for being pro-gun, as have some others I could name, and Lieberman himself said that this issue costs us the White House in 2000. The first party to open up to any idea of the other side wins, so let's drop the gun issue before they drop abortion. I'd rather see some of the NRA come to our side than see the Repugs pick up too much of the female vote.

[BillZBubb]

37. No, there will be no division of the Union.

The losers already tried that once and got their asses kicked.

I do think the polarization will remain intense until that 10% in the middle realizes that they are being patsies for the far right. Once that dawns on them, there will be a sharp swing electorially to the Democrats. In other words, the pendulum of US politics has swung about as far right as it can before the inevitable swing back begins.

[lanparty]

51. Numerically, the right isn't as strong as you think ...

The only heavily populated state where they have overwhelming support is Virginia. Everywhere else is very rural.

Those in those states would fight like madmen to prevent a christian theocracy. AT the END of the day, they'll find that they aren't just a NARROW majority, they are a clear minority. The godless heathens are simply a lot less likely to vote. But you'll see them come out in droves the more the Christian Reich postures.

[playahata1]

74. My otherwise APOLITICAL brother once told me

that this country is far too DIVERSE for it to slide into any fascistic, theocratic entity. In many ways I am inclined to believe him, because of the many and various cultural traditions that have been embraced/entrenched here. On the other hand, I am not so sure this diversity is strong enough to withstand the fundie/fascist onslaught.

[kentuck]

52. How much responsibility at the feet of the press ??

For the present division, whether or not it turns into rebellion?

[nomaco-10]

60. The division is "not coming"......

it's already here and has been since 1992. 2000 was just the year that brought it to the forefront of people's attention. The repubs were successfully silenced for the most part during the first few years of Clinton's presidency, atleast til their hired gun, Ken Starr finally latched onto something they could really sink their teeth into, a "sex" scandal, one of their favorite attacks (family values and all that crap). They never stopped working to get him disgraced and impeached, they were relentless with their witch hunts and playing the politics of personal destruction.

With all the smug and self righteous swagger they could muster after the thumping they gave Clinton and the subsequent theft of 2000, they have been emboldened as never before and the ignorant, racist, homophobic, bible thumping, gun toting neanderthals that make up their party have crawled out from under their rocks in mass.

The division is not coming, the division is here, it's just more out in the open now. Families are divided, neighbors aren't speaking, friends have fallen out. Some people are afraid to put bumper stickers on their cars or signs in their yards, they are concerned about speaking freely even on anonymous internet boards or checking out books at their local libraries, even losing their jobs in some cases. bush* "the uniter not the divider" has caused more harm and heartache in this country than any other president ever. Sometimes, I think he's the devil.

[RedStateDem]

63. Interesting take on this from Zogby

Zogby's Historical analysis of the Executive office suggests that there may be hope for cyclical relief from the division we now see. He breaks up the eras as follows:

The Civic-Minded Presidency, 1789-1797
The Partisan Presidency, 1828-1936
The Plebiscitary Presidency, 1940-1988
The Return of the Partisan Era, 1992-Present

Will the present Partisan era be followed by a Plebiscitary era? Or even perhaps a Civic-Minded era? It's possible that a Partisan era *causes* a return to a Plebiscitary presidency, which is why (some speculate) there was a temptation to form a "people's ticket" with Kerry-McCain.

If Kerry can't pull this off, I suspect that there will be more pressure to do this in 2008 after 4 more years of partisan Republican rule, and Hillary may be just the ticket to do this, considering her enormous political clout and popularity.

Just my thoughts. In any case, this division may trigger a pendulum swing back toward a more unified era, just as 1828-1936 did, which led FDR to appoint two prominent Republicans to his cabinet. Look for something like that in 2008 and a possible "fade to purple" in American electoral politics shortly thereafter.

[Bluebear]

64. Well said. VERY well said.

[YNGW]

62. Dismantling?

>Furthermore, the Dems will immediately dismantle their "reforms" that were enacted over the past 4 years. These "reforms" are designed to move this nation to a more restrictive, pro-rich, pro-fundamentalist Christianity, anti-intellectual nation. They will see all of their hard work go down the drain.

I don't see that taking place. Kerry/Edwards knows who butters their bread, and it's not the serfs like you and me.

[DarkHorse]

65. Right wing won't go nutz

The Right would not go nutz in a loss.
I do think that the Left would go nutz in a loss.
Absolutely.

Look at the conventions. Which convention is being
targeted by anarchists? Not the Democratic Convention.
It's the Republican Convention being targeted by
the nutz.

I agree on the polarization. I also agree that this
country will be split in two, but I don't see the
Right doing it. It will be the Left that gets loud
and makes the fuss.

The Left wouldn't be able to handle the loss.
The Right would just roll over if it lost.

[Cats Against Frist]

67. Tell me another one

They've got to prepare for "the end times."

[bobbieinok]

72. ????????

The Left wouldn't be able to handle the loss.
The Right would just roll over if it lost.

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN the last 24 years???????

[Auntie Bush]

75. Yeah right! You mean like they just rolled over when Clinton

got in office? "The Right would just roll over if it lost."
I think they will go balistic...litterly!

[Shopaholic]

87. They'll try to destroy us if we win. . .

what they did to Clinton from 1992-2000 and what they did to Al Gore in 2000 will look like child's play compared to the way that they will come after us if we win. This is just the beginning people. We've got to fight them with everything we've got to fight them with and we've got to keep on fighting after we take back our country in November. We need to limit ownership of media outlets and restore the fairness doctrine as first steps. That's the only way we're going to be able to battle their propaganda. And we need more liberal billionaires like George Soros to pony up the dough and make us competitive with all the right-wing "think tanks" and well-armed political machines.

[Cats Against Frist]

66. Yeah, I Don't think the Dems will dismantle anything

They DO know who butters their bread -- and I stand with the Democrats, because I am against the Christian Right. I am mostly Libertarian, but you'd have to slit my throat before I'd vote GOP, or any party that would take away enough votes to get the GOP elected.

Here's my take on the divide:

It all goes back to communism. Seen as apostatic and un-capitalistic, it united church and business. That's where this alliance originally came from. When you ask yourself: why the HELL would Christians support corpo-fascism -- this is why.

Over the years, the Christianity was lost, for an alternative religion, a CIVIL religion that combined the corpo-fascists with the Christians, inexorably.

Again, the 1960s blew their worldview apart. Everything we're seeing now is a result of the civil rights movement, the liberalism and the cultural change in the 1960s.

As the right started blathering, insisting that the Dems were still communist -- or worse, under the control of Catholics and Jews, the Dems caved, both to right-wing CULTURAL squawking, but the entry of big business into deciding to buy the government, to get around having to be responsible to the society that supports them. When the Dems lost their populist message, the right hammered hard on the social issues, DISTORTED EVERYTHING WAY THE FUCK OUT OF PROPORTION, so that your Democrat neighbor is a "pinko, liberal commie who wants to kill all the babies and take down American society."

A misrepresentational caricature of the left. And it drew in a lot of centrists. Thomas Frank mentions some of this in his book about "What's the Matter With Kansas," but it it something political scientists have known for some time.

Now, thanks to right-wing hate radio, not only are the loonies mobilized, but many seemingly normal people have been transformed into loonies and right-wing human capital.

And they fall under the big tent of the GOP. Evangelicals make up roughly half the GOP electorate, and polls show that roughly 1/3 of ALL evangelicals: 35 MILLION PEOPLE hold delusional stances on Christianity -- such as God appointing Bush, and that the end of the world will take place within their lifetime.

These people, through the church and the GOP civil religion, have been mobilized. Add in the scaredy suburbans, who have been frightened about the "commie left," and the single-issue morality voters and you have a VERY LARGE BASE. The only base that rivals it is that of the African American vote, which is far smaller, and far less motivated and organized to vote.

Their power lies not in their numbers, but the NUMBERS OF PEOPLE THAT THEY HAVE READY TO VOTE.

Then there's the plebeian shite -- Ralph Nader's hundred million apathetic, disenfranchised voters, who are not encapsulated within either left or right ideology. Are they right, or are they left? My bet is that they're moderate -- at least for now. If the right gets much stronger, however, and holds court over our pubic dialogue, our national direction, etc., the MEMORY of the multicultural, pluralistic, just society will actually FADE. I believe this. And I believe this is where the real danger lies. In pushing the left so far out of the discourse, that it stands no chance in the next generation.

A lot of people debate on how much power they actually have, because I honestly believe that these people are pawns of the corpo-fascists, and the corpo-fascist interest will win out. While a superstitious, fearful population is good for the consumer impulse, other things are also good: using sexuality/pornography to tap consumers, free speech & an active counterculture to develp niches in the market -- for trends, etc., individualism and multiculturalism -- to increase different marketing demographics, and education -- education and creativity will be necessary to develop products to compete with other countries.

And Frank also suggests that the GOP has actually done very little to further their social agenda, though they have to further the economic ones. But in the GOP civil religion -- the economic ones are linked together with the social ones -- so it appears that their goals are being met, which keeps them energized.

So I'm not so sure how this will all play out. I think one of three things will happen -- the corpo-fascists will find that the religious thing is good for them or bad for them -- if it is good, and they can keep the amalgam of free-market capitalism, with a subservient, superstitious population that lets them do what they want -- and they will try to checkmate the left and live out their dream -- but not extreme ENOUGH to piss off the general population. Kind of like it is now. But they will start to let the Religious Right undermine and trash the Constitution.

If not -- the GOP will split. When the money people abandon the religious zealots. The GOP coalition will end.

One problem with this, leading to the third option, is that MANY of the money people ARE religious zealots. The two could not have been linked for so long without producing its own prototype.

These are the people that FUCKING SCARE ME. They are a danger to our Constitution, our liberty, our founding principles, etc.

If they manage to mobilize enough support on their side, and manage to piss off the larger population, and the libertarians -- PARTICULARLY IF APATHY HAS MADE IT TOO LATE TO CHANGE THE LAWS -- there will be a civil war.

I can't say which will happen. I think this FMA shit that I've been seeing all day is the first cry in their "death knell." It's almost embarrasing to see them pimping for their base. It's pathetic. They are scared -- because right now, a majority of polls show that THEY ARE, IN FACT, not the majority. And they've worked too hard to let it go quietly.

My suggestion is to inform every person -- who is still capable of thinking rationally -- that you know that the new GOP is not for small government, is not for conservatism and has the intention of subjugating our rational laws to their God.

I have to tell you -- I've become more libertarian as a result of the right-wing bullshit, and I think that's where we're going to break down the GOP -- not by trying to sell another form of big government. Some other model has to be born. The contradiction of the government taking your money v. the government taking your civil liberty has been played just about to its conclusion.

The only hope is to go back to the Constitution, and shrink government to the local and state level. This might cause division, and might cause civil war or secession in and of itself -- but it's a last ditch effort to stave off what's coming.

That's my twenty-two cents.

[RedStateDem]

68. One other danger sign, though...

...is the fundamentalist Christian right's propensity for large numbers of offspring. I'm seeing lots of families here in my state not with 4 kids, but with 5, 6, and 7, some with 9 or 13!!!! It's amazing.

Anyway, I think that will factor in somehow in the future. little republicans tend to grow up to be big ones. Anyone else seeing this trend?

[Cats Against Frist]

69. Oh, it's very conscious

so is their attempt to take over the school system, and shift children into parochial schools.

I want to make it clear, though -- to add to my other point, that it is really corporations (the corpo-fascists) that are in control. The people who own the media have done as much to frame the discourse as the right, themselves.

Right now, what they're letting through is the conservative frame, because it's good for them -- due to the fact that these motivated zealots, in their CIVIL religion, also fall in line behind lower taxes, deregulation, big corporate governance, and against workers' rights and unionization, they are valuable tools for the corpo-fascists.

I read in a recent poll that 39 percent of the country would NEVER consider voting for George Bush -- and about 35 to 40 percent of this country is solidly Democrat -- and about 40 to 45 percent is solidly Republican.

Since the corporations control the discourse, the best thing to do is not to spend money that help these corporations. It's not just about outsourcing -- it's about what parties feed the right-wing machine, including what media outlets they own and support, what think tanks they fund and into what politicians they pump money.

After reading something the other day -- I'm sure many people here are sitting and typing on a Dell. Not only is Dell a significant outsourcer, but a HUGE money supporter of Republicans.

I know it's tempting to get a computer for $499 -- but an Apple, which is considerably more expensive, is a more socially responsible choice. Steve Jobs funds democrats, is a democrat and is someone perhaps going against his best interest to place his funds.

Even if you don't have the energy to hit the pavement, your personal choices can help decide the future of this country.

[bobbieinok]

73. in college in the late 50s we read Protestant, Catholic and Jew

What I remember from this book.......

the real religion of America is America (with 3 different flavors)..

Today (at least 1980 - )....The religious right wants the religion of America to be America with only one flavor 'religious right/fundamentalism'.

What the book contended, as I recall, was that very few Protestants, Catholics, and Jews in America had anything in common with the traditions of their group........'God' had been replaced with 'god'=America.

Anyone remember the book?????

[Iris]

70. 1,110,133 vs 1,415,277 in the state of GA

1,110,133 people in GA voted for Al Gore.

1,415,277 vote for George Bush.

Ok. It's 305,000 votes, but an overwhelming majority? I mean are 1,110,133 citizens going to just sit by and allow their state to be severed from the federal gov't?

[Shopaholic]

88. Saw a story on that this morning on one of the networks

about how small the margins were in some of the so-called red and blue states. It either depresses me that we're that divided as a nation or it gives me hope that not everyone is as deluded by * as the "red-blue" map indicates.

[ArnoldLayne]

78. I believe it

is going to get worse if we win. :mad: :mad:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

79. Irreconcilable Differences = Divorce

I think "No Fault" would be appropriate.

[kaitykaity]

80. Let them secede.

They can have their monarchical theocracy with Bush as
their leader and we can defeat them in a civil war again.

/sarcasm off.

I really think they've hit the height of their power, and
it's all downhill for them from here.

The pendulum always swings, and they are destined for the
radical fringes before we're done with them.

[HawkerHurricane]

84. Let them secede.

They'll starve without U.S. Federal handouts.

Remember this: of the states that voted for Bush, ONLY ONE payed more money into the Federal Government than it recieved: Texas.

Every Red State except Texas is on the Federal Dole, while California and New York pays more money in than they get back.

[greblc]

86. Is this true?

[OnTheUpandDown]

89. How does this break down per person?

I know the red states have fewer people than NY or CA. What is the rate y person?