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neoteric lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:47 PM
Original message
How long has marriage been around?
Just wondering due to tall the anti-homosexual fervor I see with RWers, nowadays.
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taxidriver Donating Member (663 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. do you mean monogomy for life, or legally binding, property-sharing ' * '
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neoteric lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I guess
when did it become less about property exchange and more about actual free choice. 14th, 15th centuries? Just wondering
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #5
36. Much much more recently than the 14th or 15th centuries!
Also, what part of the world are you talking about?

As late as the 1800s, many Anglo women in this country were expected to marry from a certain "pool" of men and no one else. That isn't exactly arranged marriage but it ain't exactly free choice, either.

I'd say we got free choice on a wide scale and it became about love rather than property sometime in the early to mid 20th century. No wait. After that.

But maybe I'm being cynical.
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BlackVelvetElvis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. Or the 30-second variety, favored by Brittany Spears? n/t
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POed_Ex_Repub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. For me a couple of years... for mankind I'm not sure n/t ;-)
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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. They love to use the Old Testament when it is convenient...but forget
about the inconvenient parts... like concubines, and was it Noah who the daughters tricked into having sex with them? And didn't Abraham have a child by a concubine (at his wife's insistence...who she then proceeded to banish after she got pregnant with Isaac?) And king David had a lot of concubines... and women were chattel.

THESE PEOPLE MAKE ME SICK. They resemble the Taliban in more than ways than one.

I threw away that issue of the New Yorker Magazine (and they don't keep the old issues on the web). But some weeks ago they had a really good analysis of marriage as we know it now... it was very enlightening.
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DieboldMustDie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #4
19. Lot's daughters got him drunk and had sex with him so as to bear him sons
after his wife was rendered infirtile when she when she looked back at the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and was turned into a pillar of salt. Seems to me finding him another wife would have been a better idea, but that's just me. :shrug:
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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #19
32. Thanks for the correction. n/t
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #19
38. Ewwwwwwwww. Um, ewwwwwwwwww. eom
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kixot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. 10,347 years, 4 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, and 13.4759 hours.
What? It's just as valid as any biblical answer.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. As long as the Shaman/Priest/WitchDoctor ...
Edited on Tue Jul-13-04 11:04 PM by TahitiNut
... exerted secular power as a 'spritual' authority. I'd say around the time of the first agricultural revolution when 'property' was invented. Shortly thereafter, the notion of inheritance was probably conceived and that required something a little more formalized than dropping seeds in any receptive womb. If it weren't for marriage, there'd be no bastards. Marriage is about property and economic power, nothing else.

The power of the Church over the Monarchy rests on marriage - i.e. "legitimacy."
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Marriage as an institution is also about
controlling women's sexuality.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. That's the chattel aspect. Women (and children) as 'property.'
It still confounds me that women take the name of their husbands. :shrug:


For the perpetual question of "what'll we name the kids?"
If John Johnson Jones marries Mary Magdalene Smith,
female children would be named ________ Jones Smith, and
male children would be named ________ Smith Jones.

That affords simultaneous patrilineage and matrilineage.
Genealogy would be a snap.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Some of us didn't. And our marriage is just fine after 25 years.
And yes, I know that my surname is my father's surname. But it's theone I was born with and I've always thought of it as mine, so I kept it.

Boy that really confused some people back then. Found out that some of our neighbors, many years ago, thought that we weren't married. Too bad somebody straightened them out, they thought something exciting was happening on our otherwise dull street.
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #11
35. Paternity?
Thought one of the major points of marriage was to establish Paternity.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. Slightly longer than divorce. :Þ
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
9. Too Long (n/t)
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
10. Well
Same-sex marriage was a sacrament in the Catholic Church about 1000 years before different-sex marriage was.

So... which one's "traditional," again?
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DieboldMustDie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. Source?
:shrug:
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Google history of the sacrements
Marriage was the last tot be invented (mid-middle ages) but it was still mostly for the rich to join property (it is also the only sacrement where the priest is only a witness to the ones giving the sacrment to themselves (i.e., marrying each other)). It concerned socially not only the allotment of property but who is responsible for taking care of the children.
I have heard of unions (not marriage per se as defined today) of homosexuals or heterosexuals being 'blessed' before the sacrement of marriage becme formalized but would have to research it.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. There are references to weddings (between male and female)
in the New Testament, as well as the Old, eg "For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.", or the wedding at Cana. So marriage between men and women was around in the early Christian church, and the Jewish religion. It just wasn't, as you say, a 'sacrament' - ie a 'rite held to be a sign of divine grace', and that the Church had sole control of.

So where's the reference for same-sex marriage being a sacrament in this sense?
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #20
34. William Eskridge
"A History of Same-Sex Marriage," published in the Virginia Law Review. There's also a book by the researcher who found the liturgies: "Same Sex Unions in Premodern Europe" by John Boswell.
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
13. The modern idea of marriage
where you marry someone you love is very recent. The idea that you stay married for 40 to 50 years and remain monogamous has been around for only a few generations, if that. Marriage was about property and connections. Before that, it was about forming alliances to care for children. The Bible has too many stories of crazy families and relationships.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
14. i heard the ignorant orrin hatch spout on tweety's hardball "marriage ....
Edited on Tue Jul-13-04 11:42 PM by ElsewheresDaughter
between man and women has been around for over 5,000 years"...i screamed obsenities at the tv!...where did this asshole go to school?
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DieboldMustDie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. Doesn't Orrin Hatch belong to a sect that allowed polygomy...
until the 1890s? :shrug:
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. no
orrin hatch belongs to a sect where polygamy STILL exists, in spite of official denial. he is the senator of a state where said underground polygamy is rife with abuse of women, children and taxpayers.
f'ing liars.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-04 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
15. 8 years for me...
Before that, I never really thought about it. ;)
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Uhhhmmm....
(nothing) :eyes: :silly:
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
18. Anthropologist have tried to find this out for years
Edited on Wed Jul-14-04 01:03 AM by happyslug
And can not find an answer, but Marriage exists in ALL CULTURES. Even in the "Homosexual" tribe in New Guinea, Marriage Exists (That one tribe is constantly on the war path and have used "Homosexuality" as part of its "War face" for generations). The Tribe claims that they only have sex with their "wives" once day a year (When they attack the "Woman" Village" and claim their young sons and have them join the "Male" Tribe). As one Anthropologist said, if you take this tribe on face value it violates what EVERY OTHER GROUP OF HUMANS DO WORLD WIDE. Furthermore it is HARD to get a woman pregnant on an one day a year "raid" (Women can only get "pregnant about 3 days out of 28 thus it is hard for all of women in the tribe to be impregnated on an one night raid). Something is not what the tribe is claiming, but if you view the Tribe as putting on a "War Face" of separating its males from its woman, you begin to see that it is a "War Face" and as such false. A more permanent relationship exists between the Woman and the Men even in that tribe but it is kept hidden to preserve the tribe's reputation as a warrior tribe.

Once you understand the above tribe is based on a false face and "Marriage" exists even in its structure you start to understand that Marriage is very old. Even today 97% of relationships are in the form of the "Pair Bond", i.e. two people forming a more or less permanet relationship with each other.

This bonding seems to be very old. One way to look at its age is to look a the practice of giving a Dowry. Dowry (in the societies that have Dowry) is often viewed as payment to the Husband's family for taking a daughter off the hands of her father. Thus Dowry seems to indicate the practice dates to at least 25,000 years ago when (based on the study of Language) all Human Societies were Paternalistic and sons were valued more than Daughters (thus a dowry was to help her new family support her).

In Africa, after the conversion to Agriculture, Dowry seen to disappear (If it ever existed) being replaced by the "Bride's Price", a price to be paid by the Husband to his wife's family for her lost to her family. Given that Agriculture started out a "Woman's Work" this is understandable, for the first Agricultural Societies tended to be Maternalistic and thus put more value on Women than Men.

Whenever Men began to work the fields, Societies switched back to a Paternalistic Society. Thus when we first have Written Records it is from Paternalistic Agricultural Societies. Such Societies accepted Marriage as a given. We also know based on their practice that what we call "Marriage" and what these early civilizations called "Marriage" had several different aspects.

First they was a tendency to use the concept of ownership when it came to Husband and Wife. But do not confuse this with our modern Concept of Ownership (A product of roughly the last 200 years) but more of the concept that the Government "Owned" every one of its Citizens, but such Citizens had Rights that varied over time and position. Thus while a "Wife" was "owned" by her Husband, he had duties to her (Including having sex with her when she demanded it).

Furthermore Marriage was a way to keep families together. In most of the world people tend to marry their Cousins. This way people are very compatible for their grew up in similar households. Another affect of this is any dispute between the Husband and Wife also would affect BOTH PARTIES RELATIVES. Thus this caused great pressure on BOTH PARTIES to tolerate each other and learn to live together (it also strengthen the Extended family, for both married partners nearest relatives tend to be the same).

This cousins marrying had its good and bad points. The main bad point is that it makes families so tied in together that it is hard to break into areas where such families rule (and it was this rule more than anything else that caused the Catholic Church of the Middle ages to advocate NO Cousin Marrying). We in the West are the beneficiaries of over 1500 years of advocacy of No Cousin Marrying and it is hard for us to see how a Society of Cousin Marrying can be useful for a Society. I have tried to explain its benefits but it has several drawbacks, but it was the norm till the Rise of the Catholic Church in the late Roman Empire.

Given this cousin marrying situation, marriage was viewed not so much as two people coming together to live together as man and wife, but at the joining of two families (or more common keeping an expanding family closer together against any possible enemies).

Thus outside of Africa, Dowry seems to have survived more as an promise of one part of a family to support another part (and Africa's "Bride's Price seems to have done the same in Africa). The Money was not so much for the care of the new "Wife" but as a promise that the wife's relatives will help and support the wife's new family.

The first break in this tradition of giving Dowry was done by Theodora (The Wife of Emperor Justinian I). In Justinian's codification of Roman law (Which was to be the main source of Law for the next 1000 years) Theodora convinced Justinian that a Valid Marriage could exist on Love alone, and if two people love each other no Dowry was needed. This was the first time ECONOMICS and FAMILY ALLIANCES were held NOT to be the ONLY reason for a Marriage.

During the Dark Ages both traditions survived, marriage based on Love and Marriage based on Dowry. Come the High Middle Ages, Courtly Love comes into play. Love starts to become more and more important than Family Alliances. Part of the reason for this was the Continued Catholic Attack on Cousin marrying, but also by the idea that Woman should have a say in who she would marry (Dowry was her FAMILY grant to her Husband, not hers). Many Families kept woman in line by denying them any Dowry if the Woman would marry anyone but who the family wanted, but by the Renaissance Dowry seems to have died out in Europe except among the Royals (And that was more to seal any alliance between the royal families than to provide for the new "Queen").

Now 1000 years of Anti-Cousin Marrying had caused Europe's Extended Families to evolve from being a closely net group of Cousin Marrying relatives, to a broader but still extended families. Marrying after about 1000 AD was more a merger of two families (who had no ties previously, or distant ties if any) than one family keeping its members united (and had been the case in Cousin Marrying societies).

In Western Societies, this merging of two families around a single couple became the norm, each spouse could depend on their relatives to help them (and their children) but at the same time the couple was independent of each family. Not quite the Nuclear Family of the 20th Century, but slowly evolving in that direction.

The Black death of the 1300s also seems to have played a role in the evolving family. Those Extended Families that tended to live under one roof tend to be wiped out by the Plague, but those extended families made up of various nuclear family living apart had a better chance of at least some of their members surviving. This seems to be the start of the Modern Nuclear family, but the extended family was still more important.

Now the pre-nuclear family (i.e. 1500-1800) was close, most people of of this time period who needed to borrow money, borrowed it from older relatives. When a couple aged they paid back the borrowed money and loaned out their own money to newly married couples. This had also occurred in the Cousin Marrying Societies, but even in the "Extended Family" finance was more important than sex or emotional support. Families helped other family members, cousin would help cousins. This was the main social support people had and every member tired to keep it up for it was their only real "safety net" in case of problems.

Now with Industrialization after about 1750, the extended family came under strain. It was no longer possible for Cousins to help Cousins in the sense of helping build a house, build a barn to take in the crop. People became wage laborers and the only way they could help was by providing cash. You earned cash through work but not by working for your relatives, but for Employers.

With this new Cash economy, the extended family became a burden. Given that most people find employment through Friends and Relatives (Up to 92% of all jobs are found through Friends and Relatives) people tend to work with their Friends and Relatives. An Example was the Old Steel mills, most workers were Friends and Relatives of people already working in the Mill. If the Mill closed, ALL OF ONE'S FRIENDS AND RELATIVES ALSO TENDED TO LOSE THEIR JOB AS YOU DID. This caused great Stress on the extended family.

This was further complicated by various Anti-union actions of Manufacturers in the late 1800s through the 1930s (Using the threat to becoming a burden on your relatives if a person tried to form a union AND threatening a Union member's relatives with termination if they did support the union member).

With the growth of banks and other financial institutions in the 1900s, the need for the extended family was greatly reduced. The family switched from being an alliance of extended families to Nuclear families that provided emotional support to each partner in the marriage. The Welfare State further reduced one's reliance on the Extended Family, for the Welfare state would provide assistance if needed.

The Modern Welfare State is only the product of the Post-WWII era. With its development, the family became an emotional support group instead of an economic support group. Older people still remember when you needed your relatives if you were in economic trouble but younger people depend on the state for such assistance.

It generally takes about 3 Generations to change peoples views on how society should be formed. The Older generation remember how it was before and do not want to completely give up on the older system (Their life experience indicated the older system may be needed), the Middle Generation remember hearing the stories of the older generation and has resistance to the change based on that collective memory but no real opposition to the change, and finally the third generation whose collective memory of the older system is dim (if it exists at all) and sees the new form of society as something that is needed. This three generational change is for any new change, societies do not change overnight but over generations.

Thus three generations are generally needed before a change is fully made to a society. We are now entering the Third Generation living in the Welfare State. The older Generation is slowly dieing out and with it most of the memory of the need for the extended family and thus the need to make sure any Nuclear family member is acceptable to almost EVERYONE in the extended Family. The Middle Generation has some objections to the Change but mostly from memory of what their parents told them not real personal experience, and new generation coming of age that sees Marriage NOT as part of a larger Economic based Extended Family, but only as two people providing mutual support for each other.

This is my history of Marriage. people may disagree with it but I wanted to show how Marriage has evolved since ancient times. Marriage has moved from a mechanism of holding an extended family together against other extended families, to one of mutual economic and emotional support between members of two or more extended families, to one of providing mutual emotional support between two spouses (and a movement to expand that mutual support to two people of the same sex). I hope this answers people questions on How Marriage has changed but it seems to have existed since man first decided to form permanent relationships and that is in the time before we had a written history.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #18
29. Thanx, Happyslug!
Great post! :toast:
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drmom Donating Member (450 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
21. But marriage has always been between a man and a woman!
Yes, I’ve heard that argument over and over...that we need to “protect marriage” because it has always been done the same way throughout history. That is no argument. Lots of things have been done for most of history, and that doesn’t mean they are automatically right. Look at the discrimination against blacks in the US...just until 40 years ago, it was the norm (and in some places it still is, just done much more discreetly). How about the treatment of women and children throughout history?

I think we have advanced as a society because of our industrialization, and that has allowed us to focus on issues other than where our next meal is coming from, or which cave we will sleep in each night. We now have time to consider such things a human rights, and how a diverse population can co-exist and even prosper. I believe that the reason that this issue has not come up before (in recorded history), is because we have not had the luxury to allow people to express who they really are, and therefore to consider the ramifications of varied lifestyles.

It would be nice if the repukes discussing this issue had even a small amount of insight before making such statements! When gay marriage is someday legal, I predict that the sky will not fall, and that our society will not automatically crumble...although hopefully we will have a larger percentage of intelligent, free-thinking people.
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DieboldMustDie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. There are Biblical references to men married to myriad wives...
and having concubines as well. The one man, one woman standard seems to be relatively recent. :shrug:
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. Probably derived from Roman custom
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Polygamy

Few pronouncements of the early Christian church explicitly prohibit polygamy, since the practice appeared very uncommonly in Graeco-Roman society. Early Christians desired to condemn polygamy, because it conflicted with the prevailing mores of the Graeco-Roman society in which they lived; yet at the same time they had to explain the clear permission given for it in the Old Testament. Saint Augustine demonstrates this conflict in his consideration of the polygamy practiced in the time of the Old Testament patriarchs when he writes in The Good of Marriage (chapter 15, paragraph 17) that though it "was lawful among the ancient fathers: whether it be lawful now also, I would not hastily pronounce. For there is not now necessity of begetting children, as there then was, when, even when wives bear children, it was allowed, in order to a more numerous posterity, to marry other wives in addition, which now is certainly not lawful." He declines to judge the patriarchs, but he certainly makes the current illegality relatively clear. In another place, he wrote, "Now indeed in our time, and in keeping with Roman custom, it is no longer allowed to take another wife, so as to have more than one wife living ."
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
24. My thoughts on this
Conveniently, according to the blackshirt manual, tradition is placed above universal values.

That's one thing that I wanted to mention.

The next is that marriage has undergone MANY different forms, since its birth -- polygamy, polyandry, arraanged marriage, extended family, exogamous and endogamous tribal marriages.

What we're talking about here is not marriage at all, but the rise of the "individual family home," with the paternalistic head of household, traditional sex roles, and some spawn.

The individual family home is not as important to child rearing as one might thing -- children raised by extended families, villiages and polygamous and polyandrous populations have come out just fucking fine, thank you.

We are talking about preserving a specific culture and specific religions TRADITIONAL definition of marriage -- which is not that terribly old -- some of which, however, derives from the paterfamilias of the Romans.

My friend Engles thinks that the rise of the individual family home was necessary to introduce a unit wherein the consumer impulse ruled. One of the necessary conditions for capitalism is an individual or individual unit -- WHICH would coincide with an above poster's timeline of marriage as a response to the mass-production of products.

I've always read that romantic love had nothing to do with it until, well, the Romantic period, and even then, romance was not necessarily aligned with marriage -- hence, the European tradition of mistresses and masters.

This talk about marriage on behalf of the GOP is nothing more than cultural supremacism, thinly veiled hate and a desire for church rule. Pushing the amendment now was just a political ploy.

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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
26. Marriage the way we know it, was invented in the Victorian times..
.. Before it was pretty much a free-for-all, and a way to get some extra cows, and chickens, pretty much. Usually people got married when someone got pregnant.. but why burst the GOP's bubble.. let's just pretend that it all started in the Bible.

I'm honestly realizing that the Bible is pretty much a right wing diatribe meant to manipulate people into adhering to the powers-that-be idea of morality. Jesus sounded cool enough, but the rest of it is pretty cruel and twisted... The right wingers just take out of it whatever suits them.
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
27. Adam and Eve begat Cain and Abel
Surely they where married. Any other begatting after that would be incest.
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JSJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
28. way too long for some couples n/t
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truthspeaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-04 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
37. I don't know, but the Bible didn't invent it
Ancient cultures had marriage institutions before Judaism or Christianity even existed.
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