I made a good Friend angry

[louis c]

I have a Friend who agrees that Bush is a bumbling idiot, who has a father who is strong Kerry, and a son even stronger.

Yet, he can't bring himself to vote for Kerry because of social issues. You see, he's a very religious person. Pro-life, anti-gay marriage, and the overall morals question.

When I face off against someone like my friend in a political discussion, I choose not to attempt to change their mind on the issues, I just say we have different opinions. However, my next line usually elicits a response. It goes like this.

You agree with me that George Bush made a mistake in taking us to war. He has caused economic hardship in the economy. He then uses these moral issues to divert your attention. If he really believed in these issues, and wanted to change them, why hasn't he. The Republicans control both branches of the Congress, every committee, the executive branch, every agency, including the Justice Department and the Supreme Court. If there is no change now, how much more power are you willing to give them?

His response was that I had to prove they controlled congress, that I was making it up about the Republicans controlling both branches. That wasn't true, he said.

I responded that it was impossible to argue with someone who had such a poor grasp of the facts. I took out a dollar bill and sarcastically pointed to Washington's face and said that he was the first President of the U.S., and if I had to educate him before we debated issues, I might as well start there.

Needless to say, he walked out angry. What am I to do? I couldn't help myself, the sarcasm just took over my body. Alas, you can't win 'em all, he'll get over it.

[demnan]

1. Wait till this blows over

then gently direct him to the two Congressional websites:

http://www.house.gov

http://www.senate.gov

Majority members and minority members are listed. All the majority members are Republican, all the minority are Democrats.

Try to keep your discussion about the facts without trying to judge him. I don't think you need to insult his intelligence to make your point.

[SemperEadem]

24. if he had any to insult, I would agree

a fool is a fool and the truth of such should not be squelched.

It takes no time to research for yourself the foundation upon which you choose to take a proud stand, so that no one can take a sledgehammer to it. This guy didn't. He has abdicated his responsibility to himself, and instead wants to shroud himself in ignorance and fear of the truth. He's mad because he now has to find a way to reconstruct his reality so that he feels comfortable and justified on his 'fantasy trajectory'.

[CTLawGuy]

2. those type of conservatives

are irrational. They are conditioned to believe the so-called "liberal elite" really control the government behind the scenes, no matter who is in power.

Read "What's the Matter With Kansas?" By Thomas Frank.

[kodi]

3. find other, less stupid friends or don't talk politics with him

talking to uninformed friends about politics is like trying to explain quantum mechanics to a goat.

[Seabiscuit]

52. Agreed

Those kind of "friends" are a waste of your time. I discovered that myself the hard way in February-March, 2003, as a result of the Iraq war thing. They turned out to be rabid right-wing a-holes of the worst type, who swallowed the Wolfowitz/Perle/Rove/Fox News poison pablum whole. I'm glad I dumped the two of them and quit wasting my breath with them. Life is too short.

OTOH, don't equate "stupidity" with "ignorance". Your "friend" may by so ignorant about politics he isn't aware that the Republicans have controlled Congress for the past two years, but that doesn't mean he should be ridiculed as if he were "stupid". The dollar bill trick would have offended anyone. I of course understand your frustration, but directing him to some websites to prove your contention, and letting him discover the truth for himself may have kept the discussion alive.

Not that you need to keep the discussion alive. If it were me, I'd let it die.

[jilln]

4. darn it...

I read a good story once on how on the abortion issue, Bush had basically made the choice that APPEARED to oppose abortion and satisfy his religious base, knowing it was doomed to fail... or something like that. It was really good and I can't find it now. Anyone know what I'm talking about?

[Justice]

5. Problem Is That Somehow Folks Like That Don't Equate Needless War and

Lying with abortion and homosexuality. Somehow they tell themselves that war and lying are not as bad as abortion or same sex marriage. It is the only conclusion I can come to.

[Hello_Kitty]

6. Similar situation

I too have a friend who intends to vote for Bush. Ironically, she is practically diametrically opposed to your friend in terms of what she agrees and disagrees about. She's pro-choice and pro gay marriage but supports the war and Bush's foreign policy. Her argument is one-note "But Bush really brought the country together after 9/11 and he just seems stronger on defense" :puke: That's her whole argument. That's it. Any and all facts, logic, reasonable arguments presented to her are met with that. As I become more and more involved in learning about politics and researching the issues from sources outside the CNN/FAUXNews loop, it's becoming harder for me to even hang out with her. I'm thinking , for god's sake woman, at least read something! Even conservative sites if you want. But for the love of all that is holy STOP insulting my intelligence with that asinine mantra! Whew....Had to get that off my chest.

I haven't said anything really mean to her yet and hopefully I won't but I don't know how much longer I can take it.

[Maeve]

7. Osama bin Laden brought this country together

Or the attack, if you prefer--not Bush.

I really wanted him to grow into the job after 9/11, to act like a mensch and be responsible. Instead, he wasted all the world's sympathy (remember the French saying "We are all Americans"?) and good will by pursuing a war against Iraq just because he could--NOT going after Osama when they believed he was trapped in Tora Bora, but turning that job over to others so Americans could attack Saddam and revenge Poppy....

[ronabop]

8. Aw, the thirteen radiant stripes!

Welcome to DU, from a former 'zonie!

-Bop

[louis c]

11. Try this

If Bush did such a great job after 9/11, why are the Police and Firefighters Unions against him?

Remember, the National Police Union endorsed Bush in 2000, so every Union endorsement is not automatically Dem., yet they are among Kerry's strongest supporters today.

N.Y. was hit on 9/11, and the state with the largest margin against Bush is the city and State of N.Y., the lead is bigger than even Mass.

What does that tell you?

If you take my advise I can help you lose your Friend, too.

[Blue Gardener]

13. Welcome to DU ccbombs!

I know what you mean. The more facts that come out about the corruption in this administration, the harder it is for me to hang around with people that would vote for Bush* again. I try to reason with them and give them facts, not just opinions, but some people you just can't get through to. I guess it is their option to keep going through life with their head stuck in the sand.

[BillZBubb]

35. Ask her if Chimpy really brought the country together

Then why is she losing you as a friend over his sorry ass policies that are ruining our country? And why is he behind in the polls? Then blast her for being the imbecile she is.

[Papa]

36. Bush brought this country together? I remember things differently

I remember after the attack that we were leaderless. For DAYS!! The true leaders of those days were Giuliani and Tony Blair. Bush was AWOL from the presidency. When Bush spoke, I felt WORSE. The president told me TO GO OUT AND SHOP!. The idiot!!!!

The first time I felt comforted after 911 was when Tony Blair spoke about standing shoulder to shoulder with America. I and many others had to turn to leaders overseas for comfort. Bush failed us miserably.

[SharonAnn]

50. I remember when we were all wanting to hear from him after the

9/11 attacks and all we got was his "mommy"(Karen Hughes) telling us that Bush was all right.

Like the Congressman said, "we wanted to hear him say the WE were all right. That the United States was all right."

Yup, I don't remember him being any kind of leader. He was kind of a show-off climbing on the pile of World Trade Center debris and mouthing off with his cowboy talk. But that didn't impress me then and it is even less impressive now that we see what he did and didn't do.

[wurzel]

9. You should have asked him who the leaders of the Senate and House are.

He wasn't being stupid. He just had his facts wrong. Which we all often do. No denying the quality of your argument about power. No denying what you did was funny. But you still ended up losing. Bush won.

[sendero]

10. I try to believe....

... that most Americans are just uninformed, ignorant if you will.

But the fact is that a lot of Americans are just stupid. You cannot make a dumbass into an intelligent person. And 90% of dumbasses are too stupid to realize that they are in fact a dumbass.

[trumad]

14. To a repuke, if it walks like a duck,quacks like a duck,looks like a duck

it's a Giraffe. Remember...truth is Kryptonite to Republicans. They melt before your very eyes when you lay the facts on them.

[Seabiscuit]

53. And if it's a Giraffe,

it's all Clinton's fault! :-)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. Thank God All My Friends Are Democrats...

I really don't think I could have staunch Bush supporters as friends as they would see the world so differently from me....

[Skittles]

15. your friend is an asshole

nt

[trof]

16. I HATE it when you beat around the bush* like that.

Just go ahead and speak up and say what's on your mind.
;-)

[Skittles]

17. my beloved retired old fart

:* :hi:

[rinsd]

18. No offense but that last part was condescending as hell...

I've had many many arguments with friends but I always take care to educate them on facts without making them feel stupid.

If you want to keep this friend, I would simply apologize that the poltiical discussion got a little heated.

[ibegurpard]

19. Sorry

Someone who is too ignorant to know a very BASIC political fact that the Republicans control all chambers in the federal government right now shouldn't be having political discussions. If they do, they deserve smackdowns like this.

[rinsd]

23. Forget decency....

This was this poster's friend not someone off the street.

Would you treat a friend of yours in that fashion?

Is the whole world becoming one big usenet where everyone feels entitled to be rude and condescending?

That said, I hope for the best that the orignal poster can make up with the friend of theirs.


On edit: I had put good friend but re-reading edited it to simply say friend.

[ibegurpard]

25. Yes, I would.

If it was a good friend, I would likely be more frank than if it was merely an acquaintance. And I wouldn't HAVE a good friend with views like that. I have to TOLERATE enough people with repugnant viewpoints, let alone CHOOSING to associate with them.

[rinsd]

26. There are things to life beyond politics....

I am sad that anyone feels the need to confine their friends to those who agree with them on politics.

Take care.

[ibegurpard]

28. Did I say I only associate with people who have the EXACT same views?

No. I said that I choose NOT to associate with people whose views I find repugnant. Someone who would defend Republicans considering the radicals that currently control the party and yet is COMPLETELY IGNORANT of the fact that the Republicans control all branches of government is someone that I would relegate to ACQUAINTANCE at best. There's lots of wiggle room in there.

[rinsd]

30. I didn't say exact views....

Agreeing with someone about politics doesn't imply lockstep. Obviously the friend is of a different poltiical stripe then the poster. I assume this wasn't the first conversation the poster and the friend had about poltiics. Again I hope they can work it out.

[mitchtv]

27. an anti choice, anti gay friend?

who needs enemies?

[rinsd]

29. I don't know why the person is the poster's friend..

Maybe they share many common interests or just "clicked". You'd have to ask the original poster.

I was only commenting on the situation described.

[louis c]

39. Let me explain my Friend and I

our relationship is casual. We watch Patriot football together every Sunday. He is partner's in a small fishing boat with my closest and dearest Friend, who is also a cousin. So, I guess you could say he is a Friend of a Friend.

He's a decent guy with strong born again beliefs. He is also a product of the 60's and 70's. He has those born again beliefs with a deep distrust in governmet. Our mutual Friend is more anti-Bush than me. He also is no fan of Kerry. My cousin voted Nader last time, but understands we must vote Kerry, because another Bush term will be catastrophic.

My Friend that I insulted made me mad because he questioned my knowledge on such a fundamental fact. He is conflicted in this election. As I said in my thread, his kids and father hate Bush. His son has just seen F9/11. He's getting it from all sides, and he's grasping at straws. He wants to convince himself he's correct, but he doesn't want to get so amerced in the conflict.

[rinsd]

44. Thanks for providing a better picture of the situation...

It's really up to you whether you want to make up with this friend or friend of a friend.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

[in_cog_ni_to]

20. What???? He didn't know

the repukes control both branches of Congress, the WH and the Supreme Court? Yikes. THAT is frightening. Show him on paper...show him how many repuke republicans serve in the House. Show him how many repuke Senators serve in the Senate. Show him who the Supreme Court Justices are and who appointed them. SURELY he knows that the chimp is a repuke...right? :)

[louis c]

51. That's my point

I can't educate him and convince him. He's college educated. He's no dope. He doesn't know because he doesn't want to know.

If he doesn't have fundamental facts, what good is it.

[gratuitous]

21. Frankly?

If your friend became angry because he couldn't believe that the Republicans are the majority in the House and Senate, I'm surprised that he's not "angry" when you tell him that fire is hot and water is wet.

[Selwynn]

32. Hey I'm still angry about those things dammit!

:D

[Eloriel]

33. Well, let's be fair here

The friend became angry because of the very funny (to me) insult.

However, let's also note that said friend had insulted first in his disbelief of the claim in the first place.

[progressivebydesign]

22. Your friend is an adult, yet can't figure out what a "majority" is?

If he can count.. then all you have to show him is the list of Republican reps vs. Dem reps, and REpublican senators vs. Dem senators. How hard is it for your friend to grasp? Those are simply numbers. The Supreme Court is tilted GOP. All of Capitol Hill. The White House. He's playing dumb. No adult could be that geniunely clueless. Sad that he can't see how he's being played on the moral issues. Rove counts on that. Wish I could think of that book from a year ago, the one that basically tells how Rove controls the presidency, and exposes the Christian crap for what it is... a way to manipulate the believers. You have your work cut out for you.

[Selwynn]

31. I resent the notion that "very religious" equates to pro-life anti-gay

Your friend is a person who's particular very religious interpretations happens to result in a pro-life anti-gay stance.

I am a person who's particular very religious interpreations happens to result in a pro-choice, anti-discrimination stance.

There are plenty of very religious people who will be voting for Kerry precisely because of his stance on social issues.

Now, in some other thread I got into this insane conversation in which somoene was all upset about the way people point out generalizations and critique them around here. And I haven't lost the larger point of your post. But still, faulty generalizations are a real burden on progress. So I think its good to point them out when they arise.

So its not that your friend can't agree with Kerry's stance because he is very religious in general. He can't agree with Kerry's stance because his particular interpretation puts him at odds.

To respond to the substance of your post, I think that we have to learn when a discussion is worth having, and when it isnt. If someone is emphatically unwilling to listen to reason, then pursuing a subject with him/her anway is an excersise in needless stress.

[louis c]

41. He is Born again....

You know how that differs from religious (see response 39).

Being Born again, I shouldn't have said very religious, I know the difference, but didn't phrase it correctly originally.

I'm a Union officer, so as an advocate or an advisory, I tend to always argue vociferously, armed as best I can with the facts.

When I am outside the Union arena, I sometimes forget that I have to take something off my fast ball.

[Selwynn]

46. I know a lot of born again people - not all are pro choice/anti-gay

First of all, hi. :) I'm not attacking you at all. I'm just saying, that "born again" is phraseology that can mean a lot of different things for a lot of different people. At a very basic level, it just means "saved" or someone who has "accepted" Jesus as Lord, etc.

People who have "accepted" Christ range from all over the political spectrum. But I'm thinking perhaps what you mean is "fundamentalist?"

[louis c]

48. No offense taken

I'm a former Catholic, so you can understand my confusion on Religion.

I don't understand Religious fervor. It all ends up sounding so hypocritical to me.

[vetwife]

34. Has he totally drank the Koolaid? If not

Tell him that Kerry himself has said that he personally opposes Abortion as a method of Birth control.Whats next controlling birth control?
Tell him tht Kerry did not dodge but rather volunteered his services and did not lie about his service.
Tell him Bush was drunk for 40 years of his life, it take a little more than playing golf to catch up in less than 20 years.
Tell him religion has nothing to do with Faith.
Tell him America has over 200 religious faiths and all should be considered and tolerated. We are America.
Tell him how many republicans have shirked their military duty.
Tell him to listen to this and then come back and give you one good argument why he should vote for Bush. Tell him its all documented..No propoganda.
http://cafeshops.com/focusgroupnow.9200633

I am Amanda (vetwife) Kato and approve this message...LOL
By the way any who get tht CD a percentage goes to DU and the Guy James Show !

[sandnsea]

37. Get the facts

Apologize for your outburst and then just get the facts that show both houses are controlled by Republicans. There has to be a list from a source he would trust somewhere online. I ask you to do this because nobody should be contemplating voting that doesn't know that simple fact. Good grief.

[tom_paine]

38. So that fool doesn't even know who is majority in Imperial Congress?

No, I agree you did the appropriate thing.

[ElementaryPenguin]

40. Fuck your friend! He's gonna vote for murderers because they claim

to be "pro-life"??? WTF!!!!

[louis c]

42. I believe he just won't vote.

As I said, Born again, anti-government. He probably feels most comfortable unchallenged, and on the side lines.

[TexasSissy]

43. He doesn't know the Repubs have majority in both houses? That's a matter

of record. You can find something on the internet and print it out for him.

[kerrywins]

45. way to go

[ArkDem]

47. Actually, it takes 60 votes to get past a fillibuster

so to do anything important it takes 60.

[Don_G]

49. Here's Something He Can't Refute