RFID: Privacy vs. keeping your kid alive

[takebackthewh]

I brought up this issue as a reply to another post, but on reflection, I think it merits its own thread.

When one talks of RFID chips here, the knee-jerk reaction is that the evil Bush government wants to know everything they can know about us. If we speak anything evil, off we go to jail.

Well, there's legitimacy to that. I'm as concerned about privacy as much as the next guy.

On the other hand, I also know what a fucking stupid-ass fool I was as a teenager. Drinking, smoking dope, and then driving 90 mph to Aspen Valley to see the Grateful Dead. Me die? Not a chance. I was immortal.

I have no right to be alive today. I am alive only because of fate chose to spare me.

Or maybe I would not have died -- maybe I would have just turned into a paraplegic, and my parents would have to pay for someone to wipe my ass every day.

Now I am an adult who wants to have kids, and the thought of them turning into teenagers like me terrifies me.

So I ask: What if you had a teenage son who was rather a drunk hoodlum? Would you not be tempted to plant a chip on his shoulder so that you could monitor his location, speed and BAC at all times?

And what if you were the parents of Dru Sjodin, the pretty, blond, sweet Minnesota college student who was kidnapped, raped and murdered last fall? And who was found in the snow six months later, her body decomposing?

What if you would could go back in time to last summer and plant a chip in Dru's shoulder?

Of what if you were the father of Nick Berg, the idealistic, naive young kid who went to Iraq looking for adventure -- and instead got his head cut off? Do you think his father might now wish Nick had had an RFID chip planted in his shoulder?

If Nick had had a chip, do you think perhaps his head might still be attached to his body right now?

I'm not attacking either side. I just want to start a discussion. I recognize the danger of the erosion of our privacy rights. I can see why the gut reaction here of many people is that tracking chips are an evil GOP plot.

On the other hand, neither do I want my kids to die before I do. As the Greeks said, that's the worst tragedy that can befall a parent.

So, with all that in mind, is RFID so utterly evil after all?

What's worse: losing your privacy, or losing your kid?

##

[Caution]

1. privacy

I dont want my kid living in a world with no privacy. In addition to that the fact is that the stories you cite are exceptions rather than the rule. Would you sacrifice privacy for the one in a million chance that something like this would happen? Your chances of being killed in a car are much worse, are you going to not allow your kid to ever get in a car? Liberty is worth a lot more than that and liberty cannot exist without privacy.

[takebackthewh]

6. Would you sacrifice privacy for the one in a million chance that something

Let's see. I'm drunk, I'm stoned, and I'm driving 90 mph.

My chances of death or 1 in a million?

[Caution]

35. explain to me how that chip in your kid

would prevent him from being drunk, stoned and driving 90?

A kid will do what he or she wants to do, it is that simple. And as hard as you try to discipline them, if you come down to hard the kid will simply start ignoring you and eventually the behavior will get so bad you have no choice but to kick him/her out...

unless you also want the chip to be remote controlled so when you see it moving at 90MPH you can deliver a jolt of electricity or something too.

these things are straight up threats to our liberty. Do you trust the government to not use these things?

When i was a kid the FBI came to my school and finger-printed all of us so that if we were kidnapped we might be found. OF course now that I'm an adult I'm not exactly thrilled with the idea of the FBI and Ashcroft having access to my fingerprints.

oh and btw...a lot more people get drunk, stoned and drive 90MPH than you probably are aware. And most of them survive just like you did. Is it a good idea to behave that way? hell no and shame on you for doing it, but it still isn't a good excuse to give up basic privacy rights.

[takebackthewh]

41. would prevent him from being drunk, stoned and driving 90?

Because then you could call the cops and ask them to arrest him and put him in jail overnight to sober up.

That sounds like a pretty good "lesson" for a foolish, hell-crazy son to learn.

[Caution]

60. how the hell woudl you have any idea if the kid

was drunk, stoned and driving 90? For all you know he might be on a goddamned roller-coaster. Are you seriously telling me you intent to sit at a computer and check up on your kids whereabouts at any given time?

And what kind of parent calls the cops on his own kid? Do you think that giving your kid a police record is a good idea? Kids will do this type of stuff with or without your guidance. The best you can hope is to impart the consequences better than your parents did. After that you have to let your kid live his or her own life.

I highly recommend you do NOT have kids because if you are this paranoid about your kids behavior that you would actually consider ratting him/her out to the cops for speeding (because you would have NO way of knowing the kid was drunk or stoned) than your kid will be utterly miserable living under your roof.

Have you ever met anyone who went to military school? Everyone I have ever known who attended one of the places rebeled much worse than those of us who were allowed to live a normal life without the government or our parents managing every moment of it.

[StandUpGuy]

76. give me a break !

For at least 10 000 yrs kids have been goofing off and yes indeed dieing....its called thinning the herd . If you really think there is anything other than totalitarian designs in RFID you, in my opinion are trying to rationalize this instead of doing what any freedom loving American should be doing, FIGHTING BACK.


:puke:

[takebackthewh]

91. thinning the herd ?

Your kid dies and it's just "thinning the herd"?

[OSheaman]

2. . . . as if they're mutually exclusive

Articles that imply that all teenagers are fast-driving drunk pothead crack addicts that fuck anything with the proper body parts are inherently retarded.

[takebackthewh]

8. Theyre not all druggies

But a lot of them are. Who do you think buys the dope and cocaine that gets smuggled into this country? Senior citizens?

[OSheaman]

11. Where do you get your information?

Source please.

[takebackthewh]

12. Sheesh, what proof do you need?

I was a high school kid. I drank and smoke dope. I saw other kids do it too.

You telling me you never seen a teenager drink a beer, smoke a joint or speed before?

[Katarina]

15. I've seen adults do the same things

Maybe we should just all have chips implanted in all of us /sarcasm

I have 2 teens and I love them very much but there is no way in hell the government is putting a fucking chip in them. I'm the parent - it's my job to be aware of what they are doing. I don't need a baby-sitter thank you very much.

[takebackthewh]

42. It should not be up to the government.

It should be up to the parent.

You want your minor kid to have a chip -- he gets it.

You don't want -- then he doesn't.

Once he turns 18, he can have the right to have the chip removed.

Let the private sector offer the technology for sale.

All voluntary.

[Cronus Protagonist]

29. An RFID won't stop any of that

Not at all. It will help you find the corpse, however, but is that worth the loss in privacy?

Choose Kerry Lose Bush - FUCK BUSH - Drop Bush Not Bombs!
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[DancingBear]

63. Yes it could - very easily

I worked with RFID for several years as a Systems Architect/Project Manager. An RFID tag that senses changes in pulse rate, body temperature, etc. is a snap to design.

I'm not coming down one way or another on the argument - just stating that using RFID to monitor if a kid is drunk, for example, is childs play.

[Susang]

102. Uh...more proof than that

You see, I was also a high school kid. I did not drink while I was in high school, nor did I do drugs while I was a teenager. So, I guess my proof cancels out your proof, if we use your "logic".

Honestly, you might want to put all that time you've spent thinking about this whole "microchip" thing into working on parenting and communication skills. You know, things that you do have control over and that might actually prevent your child from engaging in the extreme risk taking behavior that you apparently found so irresistible.

[takebackthewh]

107. Well I admire you for having better judgment ...

... and maturity that I had.

In the meantime, if I have kids, I'm gonna be damn tempted to plug a chip into them when they're a baby.

What the hell? They'll never know.

And then I can track them on my PC:

"http://trackkid.com."

Is it a violation of their privacy?

Maybe.

Will it keep them alive?

It sure as hell might.

I was a fucking fool as a teen.

What makes me think my kids will be any different?

What do you want more? Respect for privacy? Or a kid who doesn't get smashed to pieces on the highway?

##

[xocolatl]

115. Totalitarianism begins at home...

If the preferred method of parenting in America is controlling your children with microchips, maybe we deserve a totalitarian regime.

Seriously, family is a metaphor for politics. How we view family life is how we view political life. See George Lakoff:

We may not always know it, but we think in metaphor. A large proportion of our most commonplace thoughts make use of an extensive, but unconscious, system of metaphorical concepts, that is, concepts from a typically concrete realm of thought that are used to comprehend another, completely different domain. Such concepts are often reflected in everyday language, but their most dramatic effect comes in ordinary reasoning. Because so much of our social and political reasoning makes use of this system of metaphorical concepts, any adequate appreciation of even the most mundane social and political thought requires an understanding of this system. But unless one knows that the system exists, one may miss it altogether and be mystified by its effects.

...more...

[Wilber_Stool]

3. If you were my father

I'd hit the fuckin' road the day I was 18 and you would never see my ass again.

[takebackthewh]

9. Why?

I'm an awful father because I don't want to see you make the same mistakes I did?

I'm an awful father because I don't want to see you end up as a bloodied, mangled corpse in a car smashed into the highway median?

[BiggJawn]

13. You're an awful father because you won't let the kid grow up.

like you did. You're not that unique, you know. You're not the ONLY person to have been a hellion growing up who managed to survive into adulthood.

Part of growing up is making mistakes. BIG bone-head mistakes. What kind of adult do you think you would turn out if you were like omnipotent GAWD stepping in to bust his chops or "SAVE him" everytime he started to do something you didn't approve of?

Perhaps you wouldn't turn out an adult. you would unleash onto Society a pepretual adolescent who never had a chance to experience life without his daddy calling on the cellie every 5 minutes saying "dontchadoodat!"

[takebackthewh]

18. Then what about Dru Sjodin?

What "mistake" did she make?

What "lesson" did she learn?

How is she a "wiser person" now -- buried 6 feet under ground?

[BiggJawn]

31. Hey, in case you haven't heard "Shit Happens".

If Dur's parents had kept her locked in the cellar, she might still be alive today, also.

Life's not guarranteed by any "rules".

And I really resent you inferring that I somehow "blame" Dru for the tragedy that happened to her.

[takebackthewh]

37. And I really resent you inferring that I somehow "blame" Dru for the trage

I don't recall doing that.

[BiggJawn]

46. Obviously. n/t

[takebackthewh]

28. "Part of growing up is making mistakes. "

And what if the mistake kills your kid?

What useful lesson has he learned then?

[BiggJawn]

34. See my reply to your other post.

And why did my mother have to die? why did she hide her diabetes? why couldn't the doctors have saved her. What lesson did SHE learn?
Why?
Why?
Why?

Shit happens. that's Life.

I think putting chips in your kids to "keep tabs" on them is draconian and just plain wrong.

Don't worry, if you want to do it, I'm sure SOME Capitalist (probably a BIG GOP donor) will be perfectly willing to accomodate you.

[Wilber_Stool]

27. The only thing

a chip will do is help you locate the body.

[takebackthewh]

30. Not necessarily true.

I know that most abducted kids/teens are dead within an hour.

But still, it seems to me an hour of knowing where the kids is, is better than no time at all knowing where the kid is.

[el_gato]

4. You could buy a robot instead

[rawtribe]

5. RFID chips

can only be read within a few feet of a scanning device. So they wouldn't have helped in any of your scenarios .

[takebackthewh]

10. Yes but

soon enough they will be trackable all over the world.

[sendero]

20. I don't know on what...

.... source you are basing that idea, but I'm telling you "bullshit". In order for a device to have that capability, it will have to have a power source and actually transmit. To provide GPS-like tracking, it will have to put out a signal that can be recieved by a satellite.

With present technology, this device would be at least the size of a pack of cigarettes, it's not going to be implanted anywhere. And though the electronics can be miniaturized, the battery and antenna will be almost impossible to miniaturize.

So basically, the fact that I totally disagree with your premise (knowing where your kids are driving too fast is going to help how?) is moot because it is based on technology that is at least 10-20 years away, if ever.

[takebackthewh]

40. Well have you heard of LOJACK?

They can already track your stolen car anywhere in the country. That technology is two decades old by now, I believe.

And now we have GPS.

Do you really think they will not soon have the ability to track any human?

[sendero]

51. YES...

... it is not a device that can be implanted in a human. Did you read my post? Do you understand the rudiments of RF technology?

Sure, someday it will be possible. Many many years away though.

[takebackthewh]

55. Aw come on.

All you gotta do is read the Best Buy flier that comes with your newspaper every Sunday.

It's almost impossible to keep up with all the new gadgets that are invented every day.

My cell phone takes photos and then allows me to send them by email from Paris to Chicago! 18 months ago, who in the hell would ever have imagined that?

[geniph]

65. You're gonna have to implant some kind of battery

about the size of a cell phone battery, plus you're going to have to have an antenna. So what are they gonna do, implant the power source up the kid's butt with an antenna sticking out like a tail?

The technology for widescale tracking doesn't exist today. It's theoretical. Cars and cell phones can have tracking devices in them, because the device has a power source. What power source would a similar tracking device in a human use?

[Baltimoreboy]

126. Are you so sure?

Mexico claims it is using them NOW.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1996616

[sendero]

95. If you understood...

... even a bit of physics or RF engineering, you'd know there are some things that are easy to do and others that are not.

It wiil be almost impossible to do this with RF technology. There will have to be some completely new technology that supplants RF (which has been in use since the 1920s) to make this physically possible. And as far as I know, there is no such thing even on the horizon. If someone knows better, please let me know.

[Minstrel Boy]

7. mmm....chips

Does Iraq have non-hydrogenated oil?

[StandUpGuy]

79. hey whats up ...

haven't seen you for a while... sweet response.

[Walt Starr]

14. sorry, privacy trumps any false sense of security

If you give up the right to privacy for a false sense of security, you deserve neither.

[Morning Dew]

16. What a wonderful workld that will be

when we can all be tracked by the Gub'mint... I can hardly wait.




I'm thinkin' you didn't see nearly enough Dead shows.

[Walt Starr]

19. Hey, we can use this stuff instead of money

Just stick a chip in your forehead or your arm, walk into any store, pick up any item, and BANG, transaction recorded, required funds transferred, no checkout line, no fuss, no muss! Hey, maybe we can actually make it a requirement in order to buy and sell things!

/sarcasm

[NashVegas]

83. Hey I Read About That

In some pamphlet that was handed to me, by a stranger person in the grocery store. :)

[Sandpiper]

17. I have a rule of thumb

That when someone prefaces something with: "It's for the cheeeeldren!" Then it's probably a rotten idea.

This idea has done nothing to change my mind regarding this rule of thumb.

[AntiCoup2K4]

21. One day, people will be beheaded for NOT taking the chip

or some similar tracking device.

And if you don't want to believe the biblical accounts of the "mark of the beast", that's fine. Current reality is scary enough, as the following illustration shows....



As most DU'ers know, the Carlyle Group is the "investment branch" of the Bush Criminal Empire. The potential for abuse of such devices in the hands of the fascists was bad enough, now the fascists themselves are making the chips.

And if that's not enough, take a good look at the design of this thing. See any shapes in there that seem a little familiar? It may not be the standard 1933 issue, but that looks like a swastika to me :scared:

[Minstrel Boy]

22. You say you're thinking about having kids? My advice: don't.

Doesn't sound like you're cut out for it, if you'd so readily choose to violate their bodies with an implant.

If you're not responsible enough to take responsibility for your children, nor wise enough to let them take responsibility for themselves, I'd suggest you stick to houseplants.

[takebackthewh]

24. Better to let the drifter violate Dru's body, then kill her? n/t

[Morning Dew]

25. The reason anyone knew that Dru was missing...

Immediately, that is, was because she was using her phone when she was abducted.... Your chip scenario would do nothing to prevent abductions of this sort. How long do you think it took for Rodriguez (the alledged killer) to do what he did to her and dump her?

The chip would help find her body sooner - that's all.

How about ya just keep your kids on leashes or lock them inside the house instead?

[takebackthewh]

33. As I said

She was probably dead within an hour.

Well, isn't an hour of knowing her location better than ZERO time of knowing her location?

[Morning Dew]

36. except for the part where

it wouldn't draw much attention if someone was an hour late.

[takebackthewh]

43. It could have saved Dru. n/t

[StandUpGuy]

78. come on....

Do you really think lazy racist corrupt cops would lift a finger within an hour if a poor black girl was missing even if they knew where she was.

I hope you don't really believe this garbage. I hope you are playing devils advocate to solidify the outrage. Otherwise you are an enabling fool.

[takebackthewh]

94. Race? What the hell does this have to do with race? n/t

[takebackthewh]

45. So there's one life that could have been saved.

Is that not a good thing?

You do make a good point. In addition to the chip, the kid should also have a cell phone.

[Walt Starr]

54. No, that's not a good thing

Giving up essential liberty for a false sense of security is ALWAYS WRONG!

[NashVegas]

84. One Life That Could Have Been Saved

Versus a nation of people trackable by the government.

It's not worth it.

[kayell]

23. The very hardest part of being a parent is learning to let go

but you have to. It's not only part of the childs growing process, but part of yours. All the chips in the world can't keep every bad possibility that could happen away. At some point you just have to let what will be.

Sign me been there, from both sides.

Added: Just realized that you do not already have children. I have to agree with the poster above that advised against reproduction. The process of raising children is interesting and often stressful. It is not good for anyone involved if you go at it as a control freak. In fact, that is usually a quick recipe for failure.

[takebackthewh]

59. It is not good for anyone involved if you go at it as a control freak.

I don't want to be a control freak.

I just don't want my son getting drunk, stoned, and driving to see the Dead at 90 mph.

I want him to SEE the Dead, not BE dead.

[kayell]

61. You may not want to be a control freak, but you have the symptoms

slow down, breath. If you were already a parent, I would suggest Families Anonymous. You need to learn what you can control, and what you can't. I recommend the Serenity Prayer. (appropriate as a meditation aid for agnostics and atheists with a little wording change)

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kayell]

69. Now, that was well reasoned and mature

good-bye

[takebackthewh]

92. Sorry, a little too much beer there.

It's my day off.

[Warren DeMontague]

74. By Any Chance, Do You Speak Freep?

"Do you really hate Republicans more than you love your own children?"

:think:

[takebackthewh]

97. What's Freep? n/t

[StandUpGuy]

80. No that makes you

a self hating ideologue that hates where, and who they are in life and think you can prevent your children from suffering your vile existence.

or

You don't want your kids to have more fun than you did when you were young.

Either way I suggest help.

[takebackthewh]

90. You don't want your kids to have more fun than you did when you were young

No, not if fun means speeding 95 mph while drunk and stoned.

I guess I'm just really repressed that way.

[Swamp Rat]

118. Everything you say is "Sheer fucking lunacy."

Go ahead and live in your Brave New World. I'll be the guy cutting the chips out of your teen, with YOUR money, and stuffing them inside cookies and feeding them to sewer rats.

Wherever there is a free human alive, there is the will to defeat the dark forces and the insane reality that you propose.

edit: for the grammar nazis

[Warren DeMontague]

72. "I want him to SEE the Dead, not BE dead."

Well, let me do a little math, here.

Much as I respect the boys' longevity, if you're just now "thinking about having kids", that means your hypotheticals shouldn't be driving anywhere in less than 17 years or so, 16 and 9 Months if you get down to business and immediately impregnate someone or get pregnant after finishing with this thread.

Therefore, Bob Weir, for example, will be.. what.. 74? by the time your potential offspring are within striking distance of taking the family car to a show.

My point? I don't know who they're going to be getting stoned and driving 90 to see, but it probably won't be "The Dead".

[takebackthewh]

98. it probably won't be "The Dead".

You're avoiding the point.

It may not be the Dead, but it will be somebody.

Hell it could be Mick Jagger still. What is he, 65 now?

[Warren DeMontague]

110. Read my other response..

Basically, I said the best way to keep your kids safe is to be honest with them. There is a limit to how much control you can have over anyone, RFID chip or not.

[takebackthewh]

112. Sure, honesty is great.

My parents were honest with me.

It helped a lot.

But I still did stupid things.

Why?

Peer pressure, I guess. I wanted to fit in.

Parents can be the greatest parents in the world, but nothing will ever stop teens from doing stupid, even deadly, things.

Therefore, I am intrigued by the idea of chipping my kid.

If that makes me a GOP Nazi in your eyes, then so be it.

I care less what you think of me than I care about having my kids outlive me.

##

[Warren DeMontague]

125. No, it doesn't make you a GOP nazi in my eyes.

I don't think I came anywhere close to saying that. Stop projecting.

And I don't think you read my other post. I watched my best friend die in the fucking hospital at age 26 because of a drunk driver. I'm well acquainted with senseless Tragedy. But, in my mind, the way to teach someone to avoid tragedy is to give them all available information, set reasonable boundaries, and then combine that with age-appropriate trust that they will, occasionally, make some good choices. Or, you can hack off your kids' feet to keep them from going out of the house, lock them into a chastity belt to keep them from having sex, and move to antarctica so they won't have any access to decent drugs or liquor.

But, you said yourself that "nothing" will ever stop teens from doing stupid, even deadly things... So I'm happy to hear that you believe lo-jacking your kid will accomplish what nothing else will. And I'm glad that you think you won't inspire any serious rebellion or major mistrust in the process, by electronically branding your kid with a radio transmitter. Beyond that, I'm really not all that interested in having this debate with you. Good luck.

[NashVegas]

85. A Chip Won't Keep Your Kid From Taking Risks

A chip won't keep your kid off dope, booze, fast cars or X-rated movies.

[Unperson 309]

26. I Told My Kid...

OK, you're old enough to drive, to drink and to carry on... You're old enough to take the consequences.

If you are unjustly accused (and people do that to teens!) I'll defend you to the MAX. And yes, you WILL be given a full hearing. I will ALWAYS listen to your side of ANY situation. That doesn't guarantee I'll agree. If something is YOUR fault, you *will* be held accountable, by the state and by your own family. You have been raised to understand that actions have consequences. Right now, at this moment, that is in effect not only in family stuff, but in public life. You're an adult and that means taking adult responsibilities.

At that point, I handed him the car keys, ended curfews and stopped the sort of "parental" worrying I'd done before. Oh, I worried, I worry STILL, but he's shown himself to be reliable and honest. He's in Iraq, now, and on his own. And he's a good man.

Microchip him? No. Not EVER! As a tiny child, the odds of an abduction are simply vanishingly small. As a teen, I would NEVER send that 'I don't trust you!' message and as an adult, the kid's on his or her own!

We need to remember as parents that our FIRST duty to our offspring is to prepare them to be independent! If they can't leave the nest fully (or as nearly fully as possible) prepared to stand on their own two feet, we've failed them!

Personally, I'm against "net nannies" and V-chips. Utter nonsense. Shielding a child from things that might 'harm' him is like raising a boy in a bubble and then turning him loose in a germ-filled world! Let a child explore and ASK QUESTIONS (and the parents had better be well prepared to answer them all!) and rely on the natural level-headedness of a well-raised child.

Were we asked uncomfortable questions? Hell, yeah! Did we fidget and squirm while answering? Hell, YEAH! Did our son come out of childhood unwarped, prepared for the adult world, strong and independent and informed? HELL, YEAH!

And while other kids went absolutely hog WILD in their first years away from home in college, our kid actually STUDIED! He didn't have to kick free of suddenly loosened restraints. He'd been gradually freed from apron strings all during his middle-school and high-school years already!

Trust me, it's hard to do it this way, but for us, it worked.

309

[slaveplanet]

32. oh pleez

Now I've heard everything

If you you want to enslave your child go right ahead.
But please take your phony debate elswhere.

this is a similar debate to the DNA issue.
Dna is culled at birth and given to private databases- It can then be used to frame you or identify your dead body. which do you think they're more interested in?

this country and the world has managed to multiply like rabbits without you...

[democratreformed]

38. What kind of kids would we raise if we monitored their every move?

Ones without any personal responsibility? Ones that do all sorts of things b/c they know they're not trustworthy anyway?

It is just my opinion that kids must be allowed freedom just like everyone else. They need to be treated as individuals.

It is my opinion, too, that kids, today, often get the bad end of the deal. They have all sorts of people who "know what's best for them" -from teachers and principals to parents. It's like we went back to the olden days when they're supposed to be "seen but not heard" and viewed as substandard humans.

[takebackthewh]

49. What kind of kids would we raise if we monitored their every move?

Uhm, kids who didn't die by crashes or rapists?

[thebigidea]

39. chips aren't enough. What we need to do...

is glue a hardhat to each of our children, duct-tape a big camera to it.

If they try and tamper with the camera or cover the lens, their heads explode. Sure, there would be a mess - but the security would make it all worthwhile.

[xocolatl]

119. Easier just to chain them to the back yard fence (n/t)

[genius]

44. This idea is insane. I won't even let them chip my dogs.

Those chips sometimes migrate through the body and are dangerous. They also allow the government to track you. Next year, if Kerry loses, we will be looking at how to escape fascism and Nazism. I don't want to give the Bush Nazis an upper hand.

[takebackthewh]

52. I should have made it more clear.

I don't want this to be a mandatory government-enforced program.

I want it to be a voluntary program, produced and offered by the private sector.

[sandnsea]

75. On your dogs...

I didn't know those chips can migrate. But if they couldn't, would you consider it for your dogs then? Just curious.

Then I go to the next step in my head, if I'd want to keep my dog that safe, why not my 5 year old? I'd never want something like that for an older child or adult, but a small child? I just don't know.

[democratreformed]

47. Another point:

I know you don't want your kids to die before you. But, there are thousands of things that you simply cannot have any control over. My brother-in-law died of a heart-attack in the middle of the night. My other brother-in-law drowned in a pond. Granted, they were older (35 and 40), but it hurt their parents and siblings nonetheless. A monitor would likely not have alerted anyone to anything out of the ordinary - unless it monitored for every single possibility - and how impossible would that be?

[takebackthewh]

50. True enough.

It's not a perfect solution.

But it is a partial solution.

[porphyrian]

48. Without Privacy, Life Is Not Worth Living

I wouldn't bring a child into a world without privacy, and I won't let someone take privacy away from us just because it can save some childrens' lives. It is a technology that will not be saving lives 99% of the time, but will allow people with bad intentions to keep track of us 100% of the time. Sorry, but the good doesn't even come close to weighing the same as the bad.

People love to bring up dead children as an excuse to pass anti-freedom laws, because anyone who speaks out against such laws can easily be made to look like a callous asshole, but this is just a bullshit tactic, like putting babies and puppies in commercials. How could anyone be against babies and puppies?

[Xithras]

53. I am a father, and I don't totally disagree (chipping isn't needed though)

If your teenager is a drunk hoodlum, you need far more intervention than a chip, you need to get the kid into rehab. The kid obviously doesn't listen to you at that point, so coming home to a lecture about how "I know you were driving 90MPH!" isn't going to do much.

As for the Sjodin and Berg references, I'd suggest simply giving your kid a cellphone. My 10 year old daughter has a cellphone with GPS capability built in. If anyone bothers her or tries to grab her, she knows to grab her phone and press 9 like her life depended on it. It will call the police AND send her coordinates to them. Within the next few years most minucipalities will have the ability to track cellphone locations WITHOUT the user having to call anyone.

Privacy nuts, of course, can turn the E911 services off on their phones to prevent anyone from tracking them, but as a parent, I like knowing that I can locate my kids in an emergency after a quick call to the police.

[takebackthewh]

57. Dru HAD a cell phone! n/t

[takebackthewh]

58. Cell phone with GPS

On second thought, that's not a bad solution either.

However, a criminal could destroy the phone with one shot from a gun.

He couldn't do that as easily to an imbedded chip.

[Susang]

100. Yeah, actually he could, in a manner of speaking

I believe that implanted chips would basically force the criminals to shoot or kill their victims to insure their getaway. And that's a horrific possibility, don't you think?

[takebackthewh]

56. VOLUNTARY!

On edit, I wish I had said that I do not support this program as a government mandate.

It should be a voluntary program, offered by the private sector.

[kayell]

62. It does not appear to be voluntary for the children involved.

[takebackthewh]

68. Kids don't have adult rights, didn't you know? n/t

[Pithlet]

82. They aren't our property, either.

to do with as we wish. Children do have rights of their own, separate from their parents and their wishes.

I'm a parent of two small boys, and I think it would be a horrible idea. I understand how you feel. I don't want to ever let them out of my sight for a second. But I understand that they have to grow up into individuals, and being overprotective and smothering them can hinder that. It is one of the tough aspects of parenting. I think there are much better ways of making them safe without infringing on their person in such a drastic way.

[Karenina]

86. And most childless adults

have NO CLUE how that dynamic works, that is to say, if one's goal is to raise a healthy independent human being. :eyes:

[yella_dawg]

64. Stoned and driving 90?

Troll post. Anyone knows that when you'r stoned, you drive 25.

[StandUpGuy]

81. Sweet

And checking all mirrors every 5 seconds

[geniph]

66. So you find out from this theoretical chip

that the kid was drunk and driving 90. He gets home alive. Then what? So you yell at him, he goes into teenager listening mode (which means all he hears is the part where you say to get out of your sight), and he does it again next chance he gets. Or you take the car keys, and he rides with a friend who's drunk and doing 90.

My point is that all this will do is give you information. Unless you chain the kid to the wall, such information will not stop the kid from doing what he's doing. That takes something much more difficult than a chip - actual parental communication of reasons for boundaries early on.

I have two stepsons, who are now 18 and 21. They've both been driving since they turned 16. They both understand the consequences of actions, because their parents talk to them. TALK to them, not yell at them, and not make foolish pronouncements and threats. They both understand the hard-and-fast rule; if you have a drink (yes, it's not legal for the younger boy and wasn't legal for the older boy until this week, and yes, it still happens), then you do NOT drive. If you're riding with someone else, and they've been drinking, you do NOT ride with them. All other rules are secondary. They've both abided by that rule, without fail, because they know if they call and say they're stranded somewhere because either they've been drinking or their ride has, they'll be picked up and brought home without a major drama scene.

Funny how well that works, talking to them and being reasonable.

Oh, and as to driving 90 - the older boy's gotten two speeding tickets. He pays his own insurance. He doesn't get tickets anymore since he saw what the first two did to his insurance rates. His younger brother learned from his bad example.

One thing that is almost invariable with every teenager is that they shut off when they're screamed at, and they rebel when they're overcontrolled. A chip will not change that basic fact; all it'll do is make the kid resent the hell out of you for trying to overcontrol them.

I think the chips, once the power problem is corrected, might have a place for very young children, but they shouldn't be used to try to control teenagers' behavior. A better way to control teenagers' behavior is to raise kids who understand that actions have consequences.

[Warren DeMontague]

70. That was you?

"On the other hand, I also know what a fucking stupid-ass fool I was as a teenager. Drinking, smoking dope, and then driving 90 mph to Aspen Valley to see the Grateful Dead. Me die? Not a chance. I was immortal."

...You almost ran me off the road! Jerk.

Anyway, most Deadheads are responsible citizens. Sorry you weren't.

As far as RFID goes, you know, you could also chop your kids' feet off, and they would be able to get in significantly less trouble. Lock them away in a dungeon, and they'll never do drugs or drink. Fit 'em with chastity belts, and they probably won't engage in pre-marital sex or get STDs..

I'm not trying to belittle your fears, but, as someone who also did a lot of crazy shit as a kid, I think the best hope I have as a parent is to be honest with my kids. One of my best friends was killed at age 26 by a drunk driver. I would explain to them what it's like to see a healthy, strong, 26 year old hooked up to machines, and then taken off them, knowing you'll never be able to have a conversation with that person, hear their voice, listen to them make smart-assed comments or watch them pick up women, even.. ever, ever, ever again.

What the hell good is an RFID chip going to do? So, then, you know that your kids are doing stupid shit. Unless you physically handcuff them to your house, you're still not going to be able to stop them from doing these things unless you have reasonable conversations with them and treat them as autonomous beings who are, after all, probably going to have to make some of their own mistakes.

And as for Nick Berg.. What the hell does that have to do with anything? Frankly, I'd be more worried about the very suspicious circumstances under which he was detained (and then, supposedly, "released") by the US military than whether or not he had a chip in his shoulder.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

71. I'll bet there are quite a few people alive today only because...

...some of the "undesirables" Hitler put away were real criminals who were going to murder someone or losers who were going to drive their Mercedes-Benz 290's drunk Saturday night on the streets of Berlin and run over someone.

[sandnsea]

73. Maybe a 2 year old, not a teen-ager

You learn to let go of your kids, you have to if they're ever going to stand on their own two feet. So for the argument you presented, it's an easy no for me. Keeping in mind my youngest of 4 is 18, so I've had alot of practice in letting go.

A child less than say 8, I might be inclined because they do get abducted too. That is the tough call for me, it's just too 1984. Which is kind of ironic because a dog is an easy call for me, sure, if I could afford it.

[seabeyond]

77. sh*t happens........it is called life

and we are about becoming zombies everyone trying to protect us and keep us safe. enough with it. what if something happened. then something happens. they are teaching adn footprinting 4 years olds cause what if someone was to grab and run with the kid. odds so not in favor further my job to watch my kid, not put a chip to do my job. and what if the teenager does somemthing stupid, as we all did and i was a good an easy teenager, then something happens or not.

gosh, i cannot live in a world where we are just afraid of every what if that comes along. big friggin deal, what if........

my mom at 59 commits suicide cause my father is having a 2 year affair with a 25 year old, she is in major depression day after christmas with winter blues.........

then, i deal with it, that is what if.

not you nor every other person can protect us all, and i dont want you to. 42 years old i have done just fine on my own, may not be the way you want me to live, but man, i take nothing back, and embrace life and love my family and children, pay my taxes, help out those with less...............

i dont want you version of life, i get one life, i want my version. the glory of the united states of american

and the obvious, anytime a right is taken, there is abuse, why we are f*'ed right now

[LanternWaste]

87. My opinion...

If it is the parents decision to either allow or deny this technology, I have no problem with it at all as it would fall under the category of families making decisions for their own families.

If it becomes mandated by any school board, city council, or state or federal governing body to have all students/citizens/etc. I would then perceive it as a violation of my civil rights.

[takebackthewh]

89. Yes, exactly. n/t

[RichardRay]

88. What SF book are you living in?

First, RFID is a way to store information, not a way to transmit it. You have to get pretty darn close to the chip to read what's on it and even then it's very easy to interfere with getting the info off the chip. If a person isn't trying to get the chip read it's not going to get read. The technology to read RFID is one thing, the technology to write to a chip is entirely another, as are the chips involved. The RFID technology in use in warehouses, etc. is write once, read many in most cases. Getting enough technology embedded in a person's body to write to a chip is really unlikely.

Adding sensing components to monitor BAC, rate of travel, state of sexual arousal, whatever, is doable, but has NOTHING to do with RFID. Some of that would require GPS. If the unit is in a car, inside a house, in a tunnel, even under really wet evergreens there's no signal, so that's out. Then start figuring out how you're going to have the power to transmit to earth orbit from a chip embedded under somebody's skin, especially without an antenna. No, LOJACK isn't going to be embedded in a human body, not unless you want to have a person look like Quasimodo with a fern growing out of his head.

Don't start w/ "it'll be here tomorrow" because it won't - this is part of what I keep track of for a living and the technology you're talking about isn't even a glimmer let alone a reality. Sure there are pieces of it that you could imagine would work together to do what you're talking about, but trying to put them together will swiftly reveal the HUGE technology gaps that will keep it from working.

The question of whether or not a person should have such a device implanted is another issue. All the discussion of privacy is kind of amusing - which one of you believes he or she has any privacy now? Before you answer distinguish between 'privacy' and 'security'. I know I have no defensible privacy, so I don't worry about it. Try it, it's a great liberator....

Richard Ray - Jackson Hole, WY

[takebackthewh]

96. I know I have no defensible privacy, so I don't worry about it. Try it, it

True enough. The government can track every single thing we do on the Internet if they want to. I have given most hope of privacy a long time since.

But that's another thread.

[Susang]

103. And you have the nerve to have Zappa as your avatar?

Do you realize what he would say about this concept you're advocating? He didn't even make his children finish high school if they didn't want to, since he believed in their intelligence and ability to make their own decisions for themselves. :eyes:

[takebackthewh]

104. As you get older, you get more realistic. Sorry. n/t

[Susang]

105. Sorry, still not buying it

I'll bet I'm older than you are and I'm plenty realistic. Realistic enough to know that no matter how many chips you implant in your teenager, they will still figure out a way to rebel. You did, as did every generation before you. What's unrealistic is to think that you will be able to control that with a microchip and not with good parenting skills, love and respect.

[takebackthewh]

106. My parents gave me abundant love and respect.

But as a teen, I was still a dumb-ass fool.

It's part of being a teen.

I'm alive today because I won a 50-50 bet on the highway; that's all.

Now when I drink, I lock the condo door and don't go anywhere near the friggin car.

I may be a drunk, but at least I'm not a drunk with a death-wish anymore.

Thank God for small favors.

##

[Susang]

121. If you have to lock the condo door when you drink

Than I think you have many more issues you might want to be concerned about, rather than microchipping your nonexistent potential future children.

[RichardRay]

129. It's not just the government...

it's anybody who really wants to know: governement, business, the folks next door and their kids.

Unless you do the survivalist thing in the mountains it's just a matter of effort.

Richard Ray - Jackson Hole, WY

[Astarho]

93. My thoughts

First of all, ignoring the fact that the technology you're thinking of does not exist as other posters have explained better than me.

What if you had a teenage son who was rather a drunk hoodlum? Would you not be tempted to plant a chip on his shoulder so that you could monitor his location, speed and BAC at all times?

Would you be so neglectful of your parenting duties to allow your kid to become a "drunk hoodlum" in the first place? Then you would go for some kind of half-assed solution like a chip in the shoulder just so you could keep track of them? You would send the kid a message: you don't trust them, and they would likely rebel against you even more.

I have no kids, but I remember my parents. Ever since I was a kid they would spend time with me, talk to me and most importantly, listen to me.

What if you would could go back in time to last summer and plant a chip in Dru's shoulder?

What makes you think her attacker couldn't dig it out? Besides given the specifics on the case, I doubt a chip would have done anything.

That's the flaw with chips, they could be removed since they have to be close enough to the surface to be scanned. They are not some kind of magic problem solver.

If Nick had had a chip, do you think perhaps his head might still be attached to his body right now?

Considering his death was part of some kind of PSYOPS it would be better not to open that can of worms.

[Djinn]

99. chip would have zero effect

if the technology even allowed this no chip in the world would stop any of the scenarios you put forward from happening.

How long do you think you'd maintain a decent relationship with your child if you spent 24 hours a day tracking them - or are you going to have an alert system that buzzes you to let you know if they're moving faster than you want them to? are you going to somehow know that they've been abducted rather than just taking a different route home? How can a chip show your daughter being raped?

Any half normal kid would rebel against this and LOOK for things to do to piss you off and after a while of constant fights and running away they'd probably never come home.

This is a completely insane idea - impractical and morally dubious.

[bread_and_roses]

101. You don't get any guarantees

when you bring a child into the world. Terrible things happen sometimes. That's the terror you take on when you become a parent. That's part of the price for the joy. And some chip isn't going to give you any guarantee either.

[realisticphish]

108. As a teenage son

I say screw you. If you think it's so much safer for someone to have a chip, then by all means, shoot one into yourself. But how dare you presume that 24-hour electronic monitoring is the way to be a parent. If you wnat your kid to be safe, then INFORM them, tell them mistakes you made, find out where they're going, who with, etc. BE THERE for them. Don't just plug 'em in and say "mess up and we'll find you." Youth is all about, if not rebellion, then at least self-reliance. I know if my parents ever did something like that to me, though I'm too old for them to impose something like that, I would have no problem removing it myself. Also, making it in the private sector doesn't make it SAFER. Oh good, a big corporation will know where I am at all times. MUCH better than the government.

[bigbillhaywood]

109. I'd rather myself and every loved one I had die before living in the type

of world where the government could track you through a subdural microchip. Are you nuts?

[Bo]

111. I said a week ago there already

being used by OIL people....no big deal.

[Must_B_Free]

113. I was stupid, so I want to make sure noone else is,

by putting a microchip in their skin.

[xocolatl]

120. Am I reading your post correctly, you *have* a RFID implanted already? n/t

[xocolatl]

114. The Mark of the Beast....

What was that about the mark of the beast? (FYI, I take this with a grain of salt, but it's worth reflecting on...)

Implantable Chip, On Sale Now

02:00 AM Oct. 25, 2002 PT

The maker of an implantable human ID chip has launched a national campaign to promote the device, offering $50 discounts to the first 100,000 people who register to get embedded with the microchip.

(snip)

The chip has also alarmed some Christians, who fear it is the biblical "Mark of the Beast"; dozens of websites allude to the Satanic implications of the technology.

more...

[8-Ball]

124. Very interesting.

When I first read about this tonight, the first thing that came to my mind was "Is this the Mark of the Beast?".

I will not take the chance to get the chip. It's not worth it to spend an eternity in Hell (If it is indeed the Mark). We don't know if it is or not, so we shouldn't take the chance, in my opinion.

[xocolatl]

127. I don't really believe in hell

at least not in the traditional Christian sense. I adhere to the doctrine of "universal predestination to salvation", which means, essentially, everybody is saved (whatever the heck being "saved" means).

However... I do think the "Mark", be it RFID's or something else, represents the ultimate in human degradation. And for that reason I would reject it completely.

Here's something else that's interesting to think about: apparently, the number "666" is encoded in every bar code. First time I heard about this I checked it out for myself, and indeed it appears to be true.

[8-Ball]

128. I saw that some time ago.

Isn't it scary to think that every barcode has "666" in it?

Freaky.

[xocolatl]

116. RFID: violation of person

I posted this to a new thread. Basically, how you view family says a lot about how you view government and politics.

If you can't respect your child's person, how can you expect your government to respect your person?

[JSJ]

117. ah, stop relying on the government to protect your trembling...

...quivering self. Life is full of pitfalls and predators. You let them stick that chip in you or your kid and you become their sock puppets. Now, stick out that chest and tell them where to shove their chip. Besides, if it's good enough for Fascroft, it's not good enough for you and me.

[pwrwagn]

122. Who says the choice is RFID or lose your child?

Or even more importantly...

I'm a parent of 5 children. They're all now teenagers. Two have a driver's license. If we all taught our children the difference between right and wrong, stupid and wise, maybe they'd make fewer mistakes.

But no amount of parenting, or teaching... Will end all the bad things that could happen. So, if you plant a chip in your kids... when do you remove it? When do you finally let them go?

[8-Ball]

123. I would not want to lose my privacy.

The whole chip deal seems like it's right out of the book 1984.

It's the parent's responsibility to teach their kids the harmful effects of alcohol and substance abuse. If the child does something stupid (like driving drunk) and get's into a non-fatal car accident, then he/she should NOT be driving again until their responsible enough to do so.

When I was a teen, I valued my privacy. During the whole puberty phase, I thanked God everyday that I had some privacy. Why take that away from kids/teens? Besides, kids/teens need their space. Why take that away?

I do see your point though.