governor won't apologize for the 'girlie men' remark

[freedomonk]

http://www.marinij.com/Stories/0,1413,234~26642~2281305,00.html

"If they don't have the guts to come up here in front of you and say, 'I don't want to represent you, I want to represent those special interests, the unions, the trial lawyers' if they don't have the guts, I call them girlie men," Schwarzenegger said to the cheering crowd at a mall food court in Ontario. The governor lifted the term from a long-running "Saturday Night Live" skit in which two pompous, Schwarzenegger-worshipping weightlifters repeatedly use it to mock those who don't meet their standards of physical perfection.

Democrats said Schwarz-enegger's remarks were insulting to women and gays and distracted from budget negotiations. Sen. Sheila Kuehl, a Santa Monica Democrat, said the governor had resorted to "blatant homophobia.". "It uses an image that is associated with gay men in an insulting way, and it was supposed to be an insult. That's very troubling that he would use such a homophobic way of trying to put down legislative leadership," said Kuehl, one of five members of the Legislature's Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Caucus. "It's ironic that the governor would try to find a metaphor for weakness when his real problem is that we're being too strong," she added.

At a rally yesterday in Stockton, the governor gave a speech almost identical to the one he delivered in Ontario but without the "girlie men" remark. Spokesman Rob Stutzman said the line was dropped because Schwarzenegger had already sent the message he wanted to send, not because he regretted his remarks. "It's a forceful way of making the point to regular Californians that legislators are wimps when they let special interests push them around," Stutzman said. "If they complain too much about this, I guess they're making the governor's point."

Assembly Speaker Fabian Nuez, D-Los Angeles, said that while he wasn't upset by the remark, his 13-year-old daughter was. "She's a young girl who knows the governor and really likes him a lot and didn't find the term to be a positive term, and finds it to be derogatory," Nuez said. "It was no question a very, very insensitive comment to make. I personally am not intimidated or threatened by it, but I think it really is beneath Gov. Schwarzenegger." Assemblyman Mark Leno, a San Francisco Democrat who is chairman of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Caucus, said he was glad Schwarzenegger didn't repeat the "girlie men" remark yesterday, saying it was "as misogynist as it is anti-gay."

what an asshole. still people are going too far with this homophobia and sexism stuff. the remark was stupid, immature, and unbecoming of a governor, but now he openly revels in democrats 'whining' over this, adding to the stereotype of touchy liberals.

[freedomonk]

1. zis girlie man

[Karenina]

25. Is the legislative body in CA

all male???? :shrug:

[NoPasaran]

2. Maybe we can get Whoopi to kick his ass! n/t

[freedomonk]

3. at least kerry didn't apologize

when he called republicans liars and crooks

[terrya]

4. I think it's sad that some men reach for the homophobia so quickly.

And that's exactly what this remark is. Very, very sad and unfortunate.

[Autobot77]

54. Yeah it's ironic

That he made that homophobic remark, yet early on in his career he posed nude for a gay porn magazine.

[aden_nak]

5. What people are saying is worse than what Arnie said.

He was making an obvious reference to a cultural item, a joke that was originally based around public perception of him. He never at any point mentioned homosexuals. He didn't call ANYONE gay, and the people he was referring to were not in any way related to the Gay Community. And yet Gay Community leaders are up in arms.

Think about that for a moment.

It's Victim-Status bitching at its absolute worst. And it, itself, buys into the stereotype of gay men as affeminent. For shame on Mark Leno, for automatically assuming that "girlie-men" was a slight to the Gay Community. For shame on him for tying the issue of homosexuality to an unrelated, unflattering comment. He's just done more for the biggots of this country than Arnie did, and he's re-enforcing another stereotype. That of liberals as over-reactionary thought police.

Look, if Arnie had been at a press conference and said, "I don't like homosexuals. They are all girlie-men." Hey, then I'm right there with ya, Mark. That would have been offensive and completely inappropriate for the Governor of California to say. But that's not what he said, not what he meant, and you fucking know it. So stop sticking your name and your issues where they don't belong, because the exposure doesn't help either one of them.

[Mordecai]

32. I agree.

[spanone]

40. Bullshit, Bullshit, Bullshit. He said what he meant.

That the opposition was a bunch of pussies if they disagreed with him. Fuck him.

[ant]

6. oh, the irony

the remark was stupid, immature, and unbecoming of a governor, but now he openly revels in democrats 'whining' over this, adding to the stereotype of touchy liberals.

So, for those keeping score:

Adding to the stereotype of women and gay men as weak, OK.
Adding to the stereotype of liberals as touchy, not OK.

Everyone got that?

[redqueen]

8. I hope everyone gets that

Time to start opening our eyes and fighting back against this macho-man culture!

[freedomonk]

11. i wish you luck in your fight

but you have to realize, that when you associate this 'fight' of yours with democratic platform, that's when you lose voters, south, and lose elections. do we want to win or do we want just to fight a good fight. yes, we do have a macho man society, no question, and you have to pander to that if you want to win elections, that's why al gore had a feminist coaching him on how to act like an alpha male, and endlessly complaining about this joke is really not helping general image of a liberal...

[redqueen]

13. Oh Cheney that!

Sorry, but when the Cheneying head of the RNC goes around whining and carrying on about jokes made about Bu$h, I'm not going to waste my time worrying about how our bitching looks to them.

:eyes:

To me, improving the world my daughters have to grow up in is FAR more important than looking less whiny than the candy-assed GOP!

[freedomonk]

14. candy-assed ?!!!

To me, improving the world my daughters have to grow up in is FAR more important than looking less whiny than the candy-assed GOP!

so you insult GOP masculinity by calling them candy-assed, what is that all about? they are crooks and liars, but why bring homophobia into this discussion.

p.s. see how easy it is?

[redqueen]

16. Please explain how 'candy-assed' insults masculinity.

Thanks!

[freedomonk]

17. the same way

that 'girlie men' does

candy-ass is another way of saying sissy or gay. so you are calling republicans gay as an insult? i am missing your point here.

who is offended, men or girls? are gay men offended because they don't want to be like girls. what about straight men who are girly? i'm confused.

[redqueen]

18. LOL

You're showing your colors here.

Does 'wimpy' also insult masculinity?

Please do tell!

[freedomonk]

19. not really

and neither does 'girlie men' for that matter...

ok this conversation is not going anywhere

p.s. what colors ?

[redqueen]

21. *sigh*

You don't think 'girlie men' insults men? Is it really not clear that it's MEANT as an insult, an insult because it accuses the man of having FEMININE qualities?

:wtf:

As for 'candy-assed' or 'wimpy'... those insult men and women BOTH because they imply weakness... but the DIFFERENCE is that the weakness is NOT tied to a GENDER-SPECIFIC term.

[freedomonk]

22. yes but

candy-ass, for the last time, implies gay, so when you call someone candy-ass it is insulting to homosexuals because, just like 'girlie men' which is apparently both sexist and homophobic, you imply that being gay is a sign of weakness. now that position may seem strange to you, but for the great many people your indignation with 'girlie men' would seem just as strange, lighten up, it's just an snl skit.

[redqueen]

24. OK that's one I didn't know about

Glad I learned that... now I'll stop using that description as well.

Not that I agree with your definition. But I looked it up and it does mean sissy, which implies femininity.

And no I will not 'lighten up'.

I'm SICK TO CHENEYING DEATH of femininity being an INSULT!

:nuke:

[freedomonk]

26. i understand

your frustration perfectly. it doesn't seem to bother most women too much though.

[redqueen]

28. Please, don't get me started!

Yeah, it doesn't bother most women. Most of them are too Cheneying worried about how to impress men to bother worrying about how they're treated /thought of.

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:
:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:
:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:
:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:
:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:
:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:
:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:
:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[freedomonk]

29. jesus

i'm gonna take cover now

:tinfoilhat:

[freedomonk]

10. it's a joke

i don't understand how you can live in our society if you take stuff like that seriously. many men are insulted when they are called girly, many women are insulted when they are called manly, and anyone jokes about it all the time without any sexist or homophobic connotations.

at least democrats are not trying to date-rape deficit.

[ant]

43. pay attention here

I do not take shit like this seriously. I find the comment sexist and offensive but not surprising, and I'm not about to go protest it. If I took this kind of stuff seriously all the time I would've stressed myself to death long ago.

What I do find offensive is so-called democrats trying to pretend "it's just a joke." I'm not saying the Democrats in CA are right to be making a big deal over this as opposed to making a big deal over the budget issues, but I think the Democrats here on DU are wrong to argue that we shouldn't focus on it because it's no big deal. It IS a big deal.

How do you think little girls or young women might react to this sort of statement being made by the governor of their state? Don't you think that equating being a woman with being weak is a bad thing?

Again, I'm not saying we need to make this The Big Issue, but at least fucking admit that it's sexist bullshit. My god, is that so much to fucking ask from so-called democrats? That they just RECOGNIZE AND ACKNOWLEDGE sexism? Believe me, I'm not expecting anyone to fight it - I no longer expect the Democrats to fight for anything - but at least fucking acknowledge it.

What's really funny is Democrats being afraid to confront certain issues because it might cost them the election. While I would certainly use different language than Arnold, perhaps he's right about the (lack of) courage in this party.

[redqueen]

46. You ROCK!

"How do you think little girls or young women might react to this sort of statement being made by the governor of their state? Don't you think that equating being a woman with being weak is a bad thing?"

:loveya:

Thanks for boiling it down... no, it's not THE BIG ISSUE, but it is an issue that deserves NO QUARTER from any liberal anywhere.

[UdoKier]

35. he never mentioned gays.

"girlie-man" is from an old skit, and refers generically to weak, wimpy or effeminate men. Not gay men. The context of the skit:

snltranscripts.jt.org/88/88ghansfranz.phtml

Hans: Ya!

Franz: Poor little girly-man, alone in his girly-house!

Hans: Sorry, Mr. Girly-Man, but here's a treat for your girlfriend!

< Hans & Franz flex their muscles egotistically >

It has nothing to do with gays.

Funny that nobody complained when Dana Carvey and Kevin Nealon did it...

If you're gonna attack Schwarzenegger, do it on the lousy job he's doing as governor, not this penny-ante nonsense.

[ant]

38. no and yes

"girlie-man" is from an old skit, and refers generically to weak, wimpy or effeminate men. Not gay men.

Yes, thanks for the pop culture lesson.

What's really funny is that no one gets the irony of using the "it's from an old SNL skit" argument to brush the comments aside. The old SNL skit was making fun of precisely these attitudes. It's called satire. At least, that's what we call it when it's on SNL. (And rightly so - they were mocking Arnold-types and the overly macho culture they live in.) However, a political speech by the governor is not a comedy sketch. It's not "satire" when it's in a speech made by a governor. It's plain old sexism. Maybe if he had played off a black or Jewish stereotype rather than a female one this would be more obvious to everyone.

And really, do you not see any social/cultural connection between weak, wimpy, or effeminate men and gay men?

And by the way, why is it you find it appropriate to use effeminate as a synonym for weak and wimpy?

Oh, wait, that's precisely the problem here, isn't it? (And before you go citing the dictionary for me, think about how a word used to describe "womanly" characteristics evolved into one you could also use as a synonym for weak. I'm not talking technical definitions here but connotation and acceptable cultural stereotypes and how we perpetuate them.)

To be perfectly honest I find the comment to be sexist above all else. It's only indirectly homophobic, requiring that one make the connection between "effeminate" (can we just call them PUSSIES and be done with it?) men and gay men, but that's a rather complex deconstruction that I'd rather not get into. I can't even get people to admit the comment is sexist, so I'd like to deal with that layer of this stereotype cake before digging any deeper.

If you're gonna attack Schwarzenegger, do it on the lousy job he's doing as governor, not this penny-ante nonsense.

I'm reading that book "What's the matter with Kansas?" now and I actually will agree with you on this point. I do think that making a big to do over this sexist comment takes away from the economic issues at hand, issues which the democrats would be wise to pay more attention to if they want to win over lower class conservatives.

However, saying that we should pick our battles is NOT the same as saying there is no battle here. I can agree with the importance of prioritizing but that does not mean I can't call this comment out for what it is: sexist bullshit that any self-respecting, self-proclaimed liberal should denounce.

I would feel much better if people would say "that's a sexist comment, but politically we would be wise to focus on the budget" rather than "it's no big deal, get over it."

[UdoKier]

44. I suppose the comment is vaguely misogynist, but...

I took it as totally tongue-in-cheek, not at all a serious slam against his opposition. it's good-natured ribbing. What do you expect from the Gropernator?

"And by the way, why is it you find it appropriate to use effeminate as a synonym for weak and wimpy?"

If you want to erase the perception of women as "the weaker sex" and feminine men as weaker than masculine men, you've got your work cut out for you. Aggression & brute physical strength are masculine qualities. Passivity and lack of physical strenght are feminine qualities. Madonna may be bufffed as hell, but the average man could probably wipe the floor with her in a fight. That doesn't mean that women & effeminate men don't have other kinds of strength. But to ask society to pretend that men are not stronger than women is a bit much. But if you want to decry misogyny, I'm behind you 100%.

Have you ever been in the military? There is a lot of this there too. But it's (mostly) not about actually impugning someone's sexuality. It's a way of motivating men to reject their weaker tendencies and fight/work/train harder. "Okay, ladies, I'm gonna see if I can try and turn you into men!" Maybe trying to stop his sort of training technique would also be admirable, but I think you'll always just be spitting in the wind. The vast majority of both men and women are comfortable with a certain amount of these stereotypes, so long as it doesn't cross over into the realm of real hatred. misogyny and homophobia.

The joke was directed at a bunch of middle-aged legislators. I would hope they would have a thick enough skin to handle it.

I was much more outraged by Richard Riordan calling that little girl a "dirty little girl" the other day than I was by Arnold's stupid joke.

[ant]

49. this is exactly what I expect from the Gropernator

But I expect more from the people on DU.

And it's not "vaguely" misogynistic - it IS misogynistic.

If you want to erase the perception of women as "the weaker sex" and feminine men as weaker than masculine men, you've got your work cut out for you. Aggression & brute physical strength are masculine qualities. Passivity and lack of physical strenght are feminine qualities.

Passivity is NOT a feminine quality. It is a quality societies have imposed on women throughout history. I am sure as hell not passive, and I am a woman, so where does that leave us? Are you going to tell me I'm not feminine?

And yes, men have greater upper body strength than women and are genetically able to develop larger muscles and the average man could kick the average woman's ass no problem, blah, blah, blah. That's not what we're talking about. Arnold was referring to courage, standing up to those who bully you, etc., and the idea that women are scared little things who run away from confrontation is nothing but a construct that cultures use to keep their women in line. While I know there are women out there who are like this and I don't doubt many are just like that because that's who they are, you can not deny that the way young girls are socialized plays a part in this too. Women are not taught to speak up, they are not encouraged to show strength and whatever else, and those who defy social convention and do these things are quickly slapped down as hysterical, bitchy, overly-emotional, etc.

I'm not even going to touch the military shit. Yeah, I know the sexism that goes on there, and I know it's much worse than what one would find in polite society, but that doesn't make it OK.

And I really think you need to question your own assumptions about the nature of women and what is or is not "feminine." I don't think you're deliberately sexist, but you very clearly carry some pretty heavy stereotypes that for your own sake, I hope you take the time to examine.

Like I said, I don't expect better than this from the likes of Ah-nold, but I do expect better from the people on this forum.

[UdoKier]

51. Like I said, you've got your work cut out for you...

"Women are not taught to speak up, they are not encouraged to show strength and whatever else, and those who defy social convention and do these things are quickly slapped down as hysterical, bitchy, overly-emotional, etc."

Perhaps but women in days of old were taught forbearance, which IS a strength, and were usually the backbone of the family, while the man was just the breadwinner. My Grandmother was born in 1906, and seemed VERY strong to me. In fact, I think she had a lot more strength of character than the youong girls of today I see degrading themselves in commercials for "Girls Gone Wild" or the sleazy dating and reality shows.

It's just as stereotypical to think that a woman who quietly tends a household, manages the finances, etc, is somehow inferior to a tough-talking, take-charge businesswoman.

And no, I'm not calling you passive.

"And I really think you need to question your own assumptions about the nature of women and what is or is not "feminine." I don't think you're deliberately sexist, but you very clearly carry some pretty heavy stereotypes that for your own sake, I hope you take the time to examine."

I don't know whether I'm sexist or not. I don't consider myself a macho man at all. I think women deserve equal work for equal pay, and I do MORE than my share of the housework and childrearing.

These arguments seem to get so hung up on semantics and trivial details...like the girlie-man comment. How does going after the Gropernator's silly joke do anything to bring about equity in pay for women or child care for all or any of the other real-world issues that women have to deal with?

[ant]

52. huh?

It's just as stereotypical to think that a woman who quietly tends a household, manages the finances, etc, is somehow inferior to a tough-talking, take-charge businesswoman.

And who said she is?

All I said is that women are not inherently weak or passive and we should not automatically associate such characteristics with femininity (or any gender).

It's interesting that you automatically connected the weak/strong distinction with housewive/businesswoman, though. Please note that I did not map the personality characteristics onto any sort of career choice. That was all you. I see no reason to believe a housewife or stay at home mom must be assumed to be weak or passive.

And no, I'm not calling you passive.

That wasn't the question. I said I'm not passive. My question was: does that make me unfeminine?

It was a rhetorical question, actually, but I just wanted to be clear.

I don't know whether I'm sexist or not. I don't consider myself a macho man at all. I think women deserve equal work for equal pay, and I do MORE than my share of the housework and childrearing.

That's all very good, but I was referring to the assumptions you seem to carry about what is and isn't feminine. Again, it's interesting that you automatically associated passive with housework and aggressive with businesswoman. Is a businesswoman not capable of showing emotion or vulnerability? Is a housewife not capable of being tough and aggressive? What's with all these one-dimensional women?

These arguments seem to get so hung up on semantics and trivial details...like the girlie-man comment. How does going after the Gropernator's silly joke do anything to bring about equity in pay for women or child care for all or any of the other real-world issues that women have to deal with?

Well, perhaps we can start by raising young girls to not only believe they deserve equal pay for equal work but that they should not be afraid to speak up when that right is denied to them.

Of course, when big time politicians are making it clear that you are a member of the "weaker" sex, adding to the message you're already getting from TV, movies, music, the world, well...perhaps they might just shut up and take it. Wouldn't want to appear unfeminine and all that.

[UdoKier]

53. I won't dispute any of your points...

...other than the one about the media. Seems to me that in recent years the media isn't protraying women as "weak" so much as lascivious, emaciated, backstabbing and emasculating while it portrays men as cynical louts who are dumb, vain, obsessed with working out and chronically adulterous.

I'd like to think that one thing we might agree on is the wish that the media would start to portray PEOPLE as decent, hardworking, idealistic and just plain human.

I don't think I really disagree with you on anything else you have said...

[noiretextatique]

45. i agree "it's a joke" is an excuse

but as to the relative importance of the comment...it's not a hige priority. however...democrats need to GET SMARTER about attacking the way rw wackos use language. they bitch and whine when a comedianne makes a less than tasteful joke about bush, but gropy is a governor...and not just a governor for insecure, macho assholes, like himself. as a representative of all people in california, including those he calls "girle men" he needs to be called to task for his inappropriate comments.

[redqueen]

47. Excellent point - they're attacking on any and every front - we should too

Not necessarily by playing up the sexist or homophobic aspect, but by exposing their hypocrisy.

There are no values there, just cold, calculated, ethics-free cash & carry politics.

They're going into fits about jokes made by an entertainer, while this kind of stuff is said by Schwarzenegger and Riordan!

[AlCzervik]

7. Since Gropenfuher has been in office

you can count on he or one of his people to make at least one really stupid comment a day. Last weeks prize went to Riordan but this week will be slid back into the Ahhhnold column. My local paper is all over this as they were with "Stupid, dirty little girl". He's pissed alot of people with his budget plans, this comment is just one more piece of kindling thrown on the fire. The man is an idiot.

[Cat Atomic]

9. Unions are a "special interest group"?

If a man considers labor to be a "special interest group", I don't know where to begin.

[JVS]

12. Has he been hanging out with Hans and Franz?

[FatSlob]

15. Unreal!

I can't believe the indignation of some. This is an obvious reference to the SNL skit. Any politician speaking out against it is merely trying to get publicity. I'm embarrassed for these people.

[FredScuttle]

20. Yes, just a comical reference!

As I posted in another thread, I can't wait for Der Gropenfuhrer to reference Chris Rock's "Love my Black People/Hate the Niggers" routine in his next "comical" broadside against the black members of the Legislature. Whatta load of larfs!

[noiretextatique]

37. bill cosby already beat him to that one

at least people will be prepared...

[BentleyJD]

27. NO It wasn't humor at all

It was an insult to all union workers and other blue collar workers
So when you disagree with someone, and your the governor it's okay to eengage in the behavior of a ten year old?
O, the jerk has every right to say what he wants
And he can continue to look like the nazi jerk he is
take care
tony and dietrich

[UdoKier]

36. That criticism is fine...

..that he's acting like a baby. But to try to blow this up into some sort of homophobic slur is ridiculous.

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/88/88ghansfranz.phtml

That seems to be Arnold's tactic- to try and use catchphrases that play off his movie personae to deflect attention whenever he's not getting the job done.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

33. Hey all you...

homos, sit down and shut up. Nothing to be upset about here.

:eyes:

[UdoKier]

34. I agree. It's embarrassing.

I don't like or dislike Arnie, although I wish he'd switch parties - he's probably left of Zell Miller at least.

He's obviously riffing on the old skit - poking light-hearted fun at the opposition. It is not homophobia, or even a real dig against the manhood of the democrats.

Whining about such trivial things DOES make us look like "girlie-men" or "pencil-necks" or whatever...

[PROGRESSIVE1]

23. Governor "Hitler" anyone?

:puke:

[goclark]

30. Let's Get Real...

Arnold is now and always was a piece of shit. He is still lost in the Terminator Mode. He is not a Governor, he is a fake.

He is also a groper and the language that he uses is to bully people. That is not a statesman that is a Has Been Movie Star On Steroids!

[Mr_Spock]

31. The one thing I can say about his comments - the reaction from people

will be at a gu tlevel, and many or most in the middle will not approve of his style or technique. Discussing this is almost a waste of time as people have already made up their mind about his comments before they even type the first keystroke. Now, making sure everyone is aware that he is making these stupid comments is a VERY good idea because I think the majority of reasonable people will see them (and HIM) for what they are - petty and irresponsible.

[spanone]

39. The Governor is displaying his intellect and his bias all in one sentence.

[MikeG]

41. It is sexist, not homophobic.

It implies that the men described are somehow lesser people and have female tendencies, as though that is a bad thing.

To imply it is homophobic buys into the gay stereotype.

[redqueen]

42. I've been calling it sexist

Homophobia is sexist, IMO.

Those men are like girls? EW! :eyes:

[Generator]

48. These UnAmerican remarks just how out of the mainstream he is

What a hate fest!

[rinsd]

50. Right about that last part....

The "whining" or at least that characterization plays on the original insult's theme.

[Piperay]

55. Why should he

be any different than the rest of the repukes by apologizing. :argh: cheney tells a respected member of the Senate to go fuck himself and says he feels better for it, this is just SOP for repukes...rude, crude and insulting.x(