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I need HELP! A repug friend of mine just sent me this.

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Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:06 AM
Original message
I need HELP! A repug friend of mine just sent me this.
Don't think there is a double standard...
 Lemme  see, have we got this straight?
   Clinton  awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Yugoslavia - good...
   Bush  awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad...
 
   Clinton  spends 77 billion on war in Serbia - good...
   Bush  spends 87 billion in Iraq - bad..
 
   Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good...
   Bush  imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...
 
   Clinton  bombs Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanian terrorists - good...
   Bush  liberates 25 million from a genocidal dictator -  bad...
 
   Clinton  bombs Chinese embassy - good....
   Bush  bombs terrorist camps - bad....
 
   Clinton  commits felonies while in office - good...
   Bush lands on aircraft carrier in jumpsuit -  bad...
 
   Clinton  says mass graves in Serbia - good...
   Entire  world says WMD in Iraq - bad...
 
   No mass graves found  in Serbia - good...
   No  WMD found Iraq - bad..
 
   Stock market crashes in 2000 under Clinton - good...
   Recession  under Bush - bad...
 
   Clinton  refuses to take custody of Bin Laden - good...
   World  Trade Center falls under Bush - Bad...
 
   Clinton calls for regime change in Iraq - good...
   Bush  imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...
 
   Terrorist  training in Afghanistan under Clinton - good...
   Bush  destroys training camps in Afghanistan - bad...
 
   Milosevic  not yet convicted - good...
   Saddam  in custody - bad...
 
   Ah,  it's so confusing!





Ok Some of these I can do on my own but any links or articles would be appreciated.

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FubarFly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:18 AM
Response to Original message
1. Just send it back with the good/ bad reversed
as an example of Republican double standards. Remind him that any principled person that was against Clinton's transgressions would also be against b*sh's. Then tell him you won't be voting for b*sh OR Clinton this election. That ought to do it.
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:19 AM
Response to Original message
2. Why bother? Just send him packets of Kool-Aid.....
Folks who send that shit are beyond convincing otherwise.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:23 AM
Response to Original message
3. Tell your friend you'll need sources before starting the conversation
Right wingers tend to be allergic to fact. Just ask for the sources...that should keep your friend busy for a long, long, loooooong time.
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:24 AM
Response to Original message
4. Try this
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 03:26 AM by jmowreader
Don't think there is a double standard?
Lemme see, have we got this straight?

Bush lies about reasons for war - good
Clinton lies about an affair with an adult woman - bad

Bush loses two and a half million jobs - good
Clinton gains 22 million jobs - bad

Bush creates $500 billion budget deficit - good
Clinton creates $300 billion budget surplus - bad

Bush's vice president holds secret meetings on energy policy - good
Clinton's wife holds secret meetings on health care - bad

Bush sits on his ass in a classroom in Florida while airplanes fly into the World Trade Center - good
Clinton stops al-Qaeda's planned December 31, 1999, attacks - bad

Bush loses popular vote, is installed by US Supreme Court - good
Clinton wins largest popular vote in history - bad

Bush suffers World Trade Center attack on his watch, three WTC buildings reduced to rubble, perpetrators still at large - good
Clinton suffers WTC attack on his watch, WTC remains standing, all perpetrators sentenced to life in prison and currently serving time in federal penitentiary - bad

Bush conducts over a year of combat operations against Iraq, loses 900 troops, insurgents still active - good
Clinton fires cruise missiles at Iraq, loses no troops, Saddam Hussein straightens out his act - bad

Bush most hated US leader in history overseas - good
Clinton most loved US leader in history overseas - bad

Ah, it's so confusing!

//On edit: added status of WTC buildings//
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fishface Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Nicely done...
<applause>
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. jmowreader, you = my God
:toast:
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
41. Will is my God
so I'm honored.
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Don_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Add This Too
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. That one too. THANKS
n/t

pnorman
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Thanks.
I'll send THAT back to that discussion on my BBS.

pnorman
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. Great rebuttal, but Clinton is actually #6 in the popular vote...
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 04:01 AM by tritsofme
Being the stickler for facts that I am.

Clinton in his reelect actually only got 6th most amount of the popular vote in American history.

Here are the top ten popular vote getters.

(1)Reagan-1984 54 million
(2)Gore-2000 51 million
(3)Bush-2000 50 million
(4)Bush-1988 48 million
(5)Nixon-1972 47 million
(6)Clinton-1996 46 million
(7)Clinton-1992 45 million
(8)Reagan-1980 44 million
(9)Johnson-1964 43 million
(10)Dukakis-1981 41 million

(all figures rounded up)
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
24. one problem
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 05:28 AM by Gore1FL
Clinton wins largest popular vote in history - bad


Actually Clinton was beat by both Reagan and Gore in this category.

Edit: spelling
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
35. And Bush Bush and Nixon. nt
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
29. Very good!
A+ Love it! :toast:


I think this one is the best:

"Bush suffers World Trade Center attack on his watch, three WTC buildings reduced to rubble, perpetrators still at large - good
Clinton suffers WTC attack on his watch, WTC remains standing, all perpetrators sentenced to life in prison and currently serving time in federal penitentiary - bad"
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
31. WOW, as the 13 yr. old video game player would say, "pwned!"
Like, that RW email was so owned!
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fudge stripe cookays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #4
34. "We're not worthy! We're not worthy!!"
Very nice.
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
40. Cleaned up for sending to repukes and freepers
Don't think there is a double standard?
Lemme see, have we got this straight?

Bush lies about reasons for war - good
Clinton lies about an affair with an adult woman - bad

Bush loses two and a half million jobs - good
Clinton gains 22 million jobs - bad

Bush creates $500 billion budget deficit, largest in history - good
Clinton creates $300 billion budget surplus, largest in history - bad

Bush's vice president holds secret meetings on energy policy - good
Clinton's wife holds secret meetings on health care - bad

Bush sits on his ass in a classroom in Florida while airplanes fly into the World Trade Center - good
Clinton stops al-Qaeda's planned December 31, 1999, attacks - bad

Bush loses election, is installed by Nixon, Reagan and Bush 41 appointees to the US Supreme Court - good
Clinton wins sixth and seventh largest popular votes in history - bad

Bush suffers World Trade Center attack on his watch, three WTC buildings reduced to rubble, perpetrators still at large - good
Clinton suffers WTC attack on his watch, WTC remains standing, all perpetrators sentenced to life in prison and currently serving time in federal penitentiary - bad

Bush conducts over a year of combat operations against Iraq, loses 900 troops, insurgents still active - good
Clinton fires cruise missiles at Iraq, loses no troops, Saddam Hussein straightens out his act - bad

Bush most hated US leader in history overseas - good
Clinton most loved US leader in history overseas - bad

Ah, it's so confusing!
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:33 AM
Response to Original message
8. Bush creates war for no other reason than reelection = GOOD
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 03:34 AM by VolcanoJen
890+ American soldiers killed and 5,000+ wounded = BAD.

By the way, excellent rebuttal, Jmowreader!
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:37 AM
Response to Original message
9. On my union BBS, a RW guy posted the same tripe.
It was on a thread about Michael Moore and F 9/11. I told him I'd respond to each parallel (bogus or not), one at a time.

Below are my two postings on the first bogus parallel:

********************************************************************
"Clinton awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Yugoslavia - good... Bush awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad"

I've been seeing the above along with all the rest on the web, and from the "usual sources". But it's questionable how much effort Bill Clinton exerted towards getting that no-bid contract for Halliburton. FAR more likely, it was Halliburton's CEO D+ck Cheney getting it The Old Fashioned Way . There's nothing inherently "evil" about no-bid contracts; sometimes that's the most expedient way of getting something done. But there has to be SOME transparency to these things, or the total ripoff could add up to TRILLIONS.

Now lets take a look at Bush and that no-bid Halliburton contract:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
U.S. Won't Turn Over Data for Iraq Audits

By Colum Lynch
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, July 16, 2004; Page A16

UNITED NATIONS, July 15 -- The Bush administration is withholding information from U.N.-sanctioned auditors examining more than $1 billion in contracts awarded to Halliburton Co. and other companies in Iraq without competitive bidding, the head of the international auditing board said Thursday.

Jean-Pierre Halbwachs, the U.N. representative to the International Advisory and Monitoring Board (IAMB), said that the United States has repeatedly rebuffed his requests since March to turn over internal audits, including one that covered three contracts valued at $1.4 billion that were awarded to Halliburton, a Texas-based oil services firm. It has also failed to produced a list of other companies that have obtained contracts without having to compete.
>
>
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A53164-2004Jul15?language=printer

AND

MORE on Halliburton & D+ck Cheney:

Halliburton Subpoenaed Over Unit's Iran Work
By Matt Daily
Reuters

Monday 19 July 2004

Houston - A U.S. grand jury issued a subpoena to Halliburton Co. seeking information about its Cayman Islands unit's work in Iran, where it is illegal for U.S. companies to operate, Halliburton said on Monday.

The oilfield services company, formerly headed by Vice President D+ck Cheney, said it understood that the investigation of its subsidiary's work in Iran had been transferred to the U.S. Department of Justice from the Treasury Department, which first initiated an inquiry in 2001.

"In July 2004, Halliburton received from an Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Texas a grand jury subpoena requesting the production of documents. We intend to cooperate with the government's investigation," Halliburton said in a filing to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.

Halliburton said it had previously replied to requests for information from the Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control in 2001 and again in January 2004.

The U.S. Attorney's office in Houston declined to comment.

Halliburton's engineering and construction unit KBR, formerly called Kellogg Brown & Root, is also the subject of U.S. Justice Department and SEC investigations for possible overcharges for fuel and food service contracts in Iraq, where it is the largest contractor, holding contracts that could eventually be worth $18 billion.
>
>
>
Criminal violations for corporations in violation of the sanctions can range up to $500,000, with penalties for individuals of up to $250,000 and 10 years in jail.
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=businessNews&storyID=5710588
*******************************************************************

He "withdrew" from that thread in a huff.

pnorman
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Cannikin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:42 AM
Response to Original message
11. My simple reply...
How many soldiers died protecting Clintons lies? Bush's?
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:29 AM
Response to Original message
14. Is it just my imagination or are pubs the experts in political spam?
I guess it would be chain mail instead of spam, but their crap makes the rounds so damn fast. The only liberal info I get in my email box is from sites I've registered and agreed to receive mail from like MoveOn, etc.
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Make7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:29 AM
Response to Original message
15. "No mass graves found in Serbia - good..." - True? No.
New mass grave finds in Serbia -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1414735.stm

Mass grave opened in Serbia -
http://www.planetsave.com/ViewStory.asp?ID=1267

New Mass Graves Found -
http://www.freeserbia.net/Articles/2002/Graves.html

THE MEDIA ON MASS GRAVES IN SERBIA -
http://archiv.medienhilfe.ch/News/2001/SER-IWPR-HR06.htm


That's from just the first page of a Google search that came up with 19,000 hits.

Since this is obviously inaccurate, I would request sources for everything else before wasting time debating this.

Good luck,
Make7
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bos1 Donating Member (997 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. But in general it has a point, concerning wars
In general the question is legitimate -- one fair point I found on a rightwing (jerk) site was the sarcastic slogan "Say No to War, Unless It Is By A Democrat". The Kosovo War was as illegal as the current Iraq invasion, and left a horrible mess which continues to today (A US-NATO-UN FUBAR), and yet there were no protests against that one.

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yankeedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. If by illegal
You mean that the US led a multinational force sent in by NATO to stop ethnic cleansing and remove the leader who perpetrated the act against the Muslim population, without a single loss of US life, then, by all means it is illegal.
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bos1 Donating Member (997 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Was it OKed by the UN, or in defiance of the UN?
Or is this another Double Standard???
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. We actually didn't even remove Milosovich.
We stopped the ethnic cleansing, but he remained in power. Yugoslavia then held elections in which M's opponent won, but M tried to steal. (Sound familiar?) There was a popular uprising in Yugoslavia in which Milosovich was removed from power, and was eventually arrested by his own people and sent to the Hague. The rightful winner of the election became the leader, by popular demand.

Our actions may have played a role in calalyzing those events, but we did not actively remove Milosovich from power. It was completely different from what was done in Iraq.
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bos1 Donating Member (997 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Kosovo is a Hellhole Now
Please check it out at http://krrf.tripod.com A festering hellhole of forced prostitution, Albanian extremists (that the US sided with) and apartheid.

The illegal intervention left nothing to be proud of. War is never to be proud of.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. That may very well be the case
but it has absolutely nothing to do with the point that I made in my earlier post, which is that we did not use our military to remove Milosovich, he was overthrown in a popular uprising after he tried to steal an election.

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bos1 Donating Member (997 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #27
43. fair enough
I was replying generally to the overall argument.

Of course, most Yugoslavs say that the US in fact help Milosevic stay in power longer when they strongly opposed him, because he was on his way out before and the the US actions strengthened his supporters and made his opponents look like traitors on the side of the US.
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
38. also remember that the "ethnic cleansing"
or genocide in Clinton's case was actively happening at the time. In the case of Iraq, the "he gassed his own people" argument - those atrocities happened well over a decade before Bush decided to invade! And Bush's father and Ronny never uttered a peep about it at the time. In fact when Democrats in congress started to raise a stink about it the Republicans sent "ambassadors" from their party over to smooth things out with Saddam. They had to let him know that no matter how much those crazy Democrats yelled, Saddam was still A OK in the Reagan/Bush book. No need to worry Mr. Hussein, you're still our best buddy. Right Rummy?
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. i must have missed the bit where yugoslavia
was a threat to no one other than themselves and that the situation was very much under strict control of international monitors until we stepped in an turned it all into a disaster area and a violent breeding ground for terrorists.

i also must have missed the bit about our soldiers dying.
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GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #16
30. That just rewrites history. There were plenty of protests of the
war in Kosovo. I was at some of them. As usual it was the same ten percent of the country who oppose all wars who opposed that one, but it is simply not true to say people did not protest that war.

I guess people do not pay close enough attention to history that people can get away with blatantly false statements without challenge.
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bos1 Donating Member (997 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #30
44. glad to hear it
I made a sweeping generalization, not intending to make a blatantly false statement. To clarify, there was no massive protest movement against (and many Democrats supported) the illegal war in Kosovo. As compared to the massive one before this Iraq War.

But good for you for participating in anti-Kosovo war protests, glad to hear there were some.

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bobbyboucher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
36. Wrong.
Nice try though.

Sssqqqquuuaaaaaaaakkkkk!
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #36
45. which part is wrong, exactly?
care to explain?
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bos1 Donating Member (997 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. to clarify
I mean it is better to be non-partisan and principled. (But don't worry, I am firmly in the ABB brigade.)
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:17 AM
Response to Original message
22. Okay, off the top of my head.
Clinton awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Yugoslavia - good...
Bush awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad...

Halliburton contracts in the former Yugoslavia, were fast-tracked (Halliburton identified as one of a few firms capable of doing the job), but I don't think it was no-bid.

Clinton spends 77 billion on war in Serbia - good...
Bush spends 87 billion in Iraq - bad..

The cost to NATO (US cost was about half the amount) for the war in Kosovo was $5.4 billion. Estimates for reconstruction at the time varied (EU Investment Bank said about $34 billion, other estimates higher, but not nearly that amount of money has actually been supplied by NATO member countries, the US or the EU). Two permanent camps were built in 1999, Bondsteel and Monteith, costing about $60 million, and about $300 million to operate each year). Total cost to prosecute the war, including perhaps $5 billion in the Clinton administration for rebuilding, would be perhaps $8-10 billion. Note that this operation involved heavy bombing by US planes for about 15 days. It was a much smaller operation that was Iraq.

Next, the $87 billion cited above does not include the initial appropriation of $54 billion for continuing operations in Afghanistan and funding to stage and prosecute the Iraq invasion when the resolution to allow Bush to attack Iraq. Nor does this mention that Bush has asked for a $25 billion advance payment on next year's appropriation, due before September, even though there's been no accounting of the estimated $115 billion spent to date in Iraq.

Of note, too, is that Kosovo was a NATO operation, and the US was meeting a treaty obligation (though it may have been our idea), and the costs were shared by most of the EU. Iraq was just Dubya's idea and Tony's came scampering along.

Of note, too, is that the Republicans excoriated Clinton for supplying troops to NATO, saying it would unnecessarily endanger our troops. US combat deaths: 0. We know what the toll has been so far in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...

Again, this was a NATO operation, and was a response to ethnic cleansing charges (more complicated than that, but it was a joint operation).

Clinton bombs Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanian terrorists - good...
Bush liberates 25 million from a genocidal dictator - bad...

It's obviously more complicated than that, and there's a clear case to be made that Bush hasn't liberated anyone just quite yet. In both cases, I think, the prime consideration was economic damage to enhance chances of privatization.

Clinton bombs Chinese embassy - good....
Bush bombs terrorist camps - bad....

It's still not clear that bombing the Chinese embassy was intentional. Jury still out on that. And, this is a non-sequitur--what does one have to do with the other?

Clinton commits felonies while in office - good...
Bush lands on aircraft carrier in jumpsuit - bad...

Well, let's put it this way--it wasn't felonies--it was one instance of lying under oath about private sexual behavior, a question that shouldn't have been asked, and was the culmination of ten years' worth of legalized harassment and $60 million of the taxpayers' money to push Clinton toward impeachment. All because Clinton wouldn't withdraw from the campaign and give Bush I another four years--that's when it all began.

And, again, what does one have to do with the other? The evidence is that Bush committed at least one war crime by invading a sovereign nation in violation of international law, and may have approved many other much more serious felonies.

Clinton says mass graves in Serbia - good...
Entire world says WMD in Iraq - bad...

No mass graves found in Serbia - good...
No WMD found Iraq - bad..

The mass graves in Serbia {sic} have been verified (in fact, most of these are the results of war crimes by Serbians against Bosnians--the graves themselves were mostly found in Bosnia-Herzegovina). Most recently, they've been detailed in a book by forensic anthropologist Clea Koff, Giving Voice To The Bones.

For a fact, the "entire world" did not say Iraq had WMDs. The only two countries asserting that WMDs were present in Iraq were the UK and the US (and both of those shared the same faulty intelligence). The rest of the world generally accepted the assessment of the UNMOVIC weapons inspectors that evidence of weapons and weapons manufacturing could not be found. Maybe that's why there were so many people marching in the streets around the world against the war.

Stock market crashes in 2000 under Clinton - good...
Recession under Bush - bad...

Actually, depends on which market one is talking about. The worst drop in the DOW occurred under Bush. The worst drop in Clinton's term was a DJIA drop from a high of 11,723 on 1/14/2000 to a low of 9,928 on 3/10/2000 (about 1800 pts). By Bush's inauguration, the market had recovered to 10,587. The low under Bush was 7286, or a loss of about 3,300 pts. The NASDAQ is different--worst drop under Clinton was 2580 pts, while the worst drop under Bush was 1650 pts. Ignoring total dollar value and just looking at point spread, the combined worst drop in both major markets under Bush was 4,950, while under Clinton, 4,380. And, Bush's term is not yet complete. Markets could go down again.

And, the recession under Bush is bad--net job loss in his term will be about 1.3 million. Recent Bush administration job gain claims may be imaginary by as much as 80%, since the Bushies' BLS has revised its means of calculation. The number of discouraged workers out of the job force has grown by 4.4 million in Bush's administration. Net job creation under Clinton was 22 million.

Clinton refuses to take custody of Bin Laden - good...
World Trade Center falls under Bush - Bad...

No evidence Clinton did not refuse custody of bin Laden. This, I believe came from a book by a mid-level staffer, published by a right-wing press, and there's no evidence presented.

As for 9/11, one can clearly make the case that this was a massive screw-up on many, many fronts. And, it wasn't just the Trade Center. It was that, the hijacking and crashing of four aircraft on the same morning, and damage and loss of life at the Pentagon.

Clinton calls for regime change in Iraq - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...

One big difference. Clilnton signed a resolution made by Congress, which did not specify means for regime change. Bush committed blood and treasure to the task, with continuing expenditure of same, with horribly inadequate planning, and very, very likely, with ulterior motives.

Terrorist training in Afghanistan under Clinton - good...
Bush destroys training camps in Afghanistan - bad...

Not true. Clinton delivered a massive cruise missile attack on those same training camps in 1998 as retaliation for the bombing of US embassies in Africa. Republicans in Congress charged that Clinton had done so to divert public attention from Monica Lewinsky.

Milosevic not yet convicted - good...
Saddam in custody - bad...

Who exactly is saying that Milosevic not being convicted yet is good? That's a straw man tactic. He is currently at trial. Only his supporters will be distraught if he is convicted.

And, who exactly is saying that having Hussein in custody is bad? Another straw man tactic. The argument has been that there's some evidence that his capture was staged (see Juan Cole, I believe, about the photographic evidence), and that he might have been in custody for some time and that the administration manipulated the news (as it had done with the Jessica Lynch fabrications) for poliltical purposes.


Best I can do on short notice.
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onecitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Oh WOW! That was great!
May I use it? My cousin usually ends up sending me all this crap he gets from the Rwingers. I'd like to throw that back at him.
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 05:38 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Sure...
... some of it's still worth checking a bit more completely, but it's coming up on my nap time. :P
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TeacherCreature Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. One Point: Clinton did not lie under oath
He was never found to have lied under oath.
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. That was the subject of the...
... impeachment, which, as we know, was voted down. But, the word used was "committed," not "convicted of," and I think few people would argue that he prevaricated heavily about his relations with Lewinsky in the deposition. That, of course is mitigated by the reasons--I wouldn't want to tell Hillary Clinton I'd been cheating on her, either....

Cheers.
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
28. Heres a rebutal
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 06:24 AM by Gore1FL
Clinton spends 77 billion on war in Serbia - good...
Bush spends 87 billion in Iraq - bad..


I can’t find a link to for the money spent in Yugoslvia by the US to meet the 77 billion mentioned, however, I did find:

50 billion is the amount that this Right-wing-nut site references
http://www.uhuh.com/reports/headsup/hu138.htm

Bush’s totals are three times that, and the price tag is growing.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-05-05-iraq-costs_x.htm

More accurately this should read

Clinton spends 50 billion on a Yugoslavia success story – Good
Bush spends over 200 billion on an Iraqi failure – Bad


Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...


Not actually- Serbia had their own regime change in the form of an election following the bombings. The purpose of the bombings was to stop ongoing genocide.

Bush, however illegal imposed a regime change, that at best puts Iraq in league with 9/11 supporting Iran. At worst, Iraq ends up in a civil war that spreads violence in a area of National and international interest.

More accurately this should read

Clinton stops genocide in Kosovo – Good
Bush causes eruption in the heart of the middle east. --- Bad



Clinton bombs Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanian terrorists - good...
Bush liberates 25 million from a genocidal dictator - bad...


This point makes little or no sense as the two lines are not talking about the same thing. However, much of this was covered above anyways.

More accurately this should read


Clinton (with NATO) stops genocide - good...
Bush “stops” genocide that hasn’t happened in over 20 years - bad...


Clinton bombs Chinese embassy - good....
Bush bombs terrorist camps - bad....


Or

Clinton bombs terrorist camps (and is criticized by the GOP) -- Good
Bush bombs weddings and Reed Cross Buildings – bad




Clinton commits felonies while in office - good...
Bush lands on aircraft carrier in jumpsuit - bad...


This makes no sense. Did Clinton commit a felony in office? Arguably lying under oath, but this would hardly be considered a good thing. Considering Bush and Cheney’s arrest record, and questionable policies while in office…

More accurately this should read

Clinton arguably commits felonies while in office – bad
Bush/Cheney commit felonies before and during their time in office – worse


Clinton says mass graves in Serbia - good...
Entire world says WMD in Iraq - bad...

Once again this is apples and oranges, but to be accurate:
Clinton says mass graves in Serbia – good
Weapons inspectors rightly say there are no WMD in Iraq but Bush bombs and invades anyway - bad...



No mass graves found in Serbia - good...
No WMD found Iraq - bad..


To be more accurate:

Several mass graves found in Serbia - good.(that we stopped them..
No WMD found Iraq – really “cheneying” bad..


Stock market crashes in 2000 under Clinton - good...
Recession under Bush - bad...

The economy always fluctuates. Under Clinton the stock market always recovered (and grew), and usually within a year. Bush has sputtered through a massively dismal economy, job loss, stock market stagnation (at best).

Stock market more than triples under Clinton - good...
Recession under Bush - bad...

Clinton refuses to take custody of Bin Laden - good...
World Trade Center falls under Bush - Bad...

Except for the fact the first assertion is false, there may be a point here.

More accurately:
Clinton tried to kill Bin Laden despite being chastised by the GOP for doing so- good...
World Trade Center falls under Bush after ignoring bin Laden for 9 months. - Bad...

Clinton calls for regime change in Iraq - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...


More accurately

Clinton wisely did not take unilateral action against Iraq –Good
Bush foolishly attacked Iraq while already engaged in a relevant war – bad

Terrorist training in Afghanistan under Clinton - good...
Bush destroys training camps in Afghanistan - bad...

Actually Clinton did attack terror camps and endured GOP criticism for doing so.
Bush never finished the job either – he diverted resources away from wiping out Al Qeada

More accurately:

Clinton attempted to take out bin Laden, despite GOP blockage – Good
Bush, with popular support, bombs the terror camps but never finishes the job despite support – bad


]Milosevic not yet convicted - good...
Saddam in custody - bad...


What? That makes no sense.

Milosevic being tried -- good
Saddam to be tried – good
bin Laden ignored at expense of Saddam-- bad

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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
32. Point out that Clinton is the ex-president and Bush is in office now.
Also Clinton was also wrong.
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fob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
37. As for this little tidbit (Lie)...
Clinton commits felonies while in office - good...
Bush lands on aircraft carrier in jumpsuit - bad...


The $70 million Starr Porno Report (paid for by you), says otherwise.

As for the "bush lands on aircraft" bush*it, nice non-sequitor! What that tells me is that the author of this article is too afraid to broach bush*s conduct in office, much more telling than any of these "facts(tm)".
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
42. The Iraq War costs a lot more than $87 billion.
That was a supplemental on top of regular Pentagon spending, $79 billion supplemental which preceded it, and a $25 billion supplemental which followed it, with more to come.
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