lets smash this rethug

[axollot]

This morning I received an email with talking points to say how Bush has done nothing that any other president has already done before him etc.

This is the email - I would love to return to him valid disputes on each talking point. Thanks!
BEFORE YOU BLAME BUSH FOR IRAQ CONSIDER THIS...

There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January.

In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January.

That's just one American city, about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq.

When some claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war, state the following.

FDR... led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did. From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost an average of 112,500 per year.

Truman... finished that war and started one in Korea, North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost an average of 18,334 per year.

John F. Kennedy... started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us.

Johnson... turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost an average of 5,800 per year.

Clinton... went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, Bosnia never attacked us. He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.

In the two years since terrorists attacked us President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.

The Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking, but... It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51 day operation.

We've been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.

It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick.

It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count, recount and recount the votes in Florida!!!!

[coloradodem2005]

1. Total Bullshit.

Somebody has been drinking the Kool-aid.

For WWII, Germany declared war on us after we declared war on Japan.

I am not a big fan of Korea, but we were there to help the South Koreans keep their soverignty. Vietnam was the same and when JFK started with it, it was supposed to be a peaceful thing. Clinton lended the Bosnians a hand against the Serbs.

We just went into Iraq with limited support from various muslim groups and occupied the country. Something we never did in Korea, Vietnam or Bosnia, or even in Germany. We did so unilateraly.

Furthermore, with the deaths in Iraq vs. Detroit, they are only counting soldiers and not Iraqi citizens that get killed and it is only during a particular month. What about the other months?

[kentuck]

2. There were less people killed in Viet Nam over the period of the war....

than were killed in one way or another in this country over the same time period. So what's the point of the argument? Vietnam was exaggerated?

[Ten Bears]

3. You wouldn't be disguising your desire to post a pro-bush comment on this

site under the pretense of asking for help in refuting it would you?

[axollot]

11. NO

honestly NO NO and NO again!

Ive been with Dem underground for a long time but mostly a lurker. MY husband has been for years!

If you were able to read previous posts of mine, you would know I definitely do NOT support Bush and his cronies.

I just honestly want to slam my friend back to his corner. He always sends me this type of crap and I am not as suave as some at getting all the facts to slam them back with.

[Frodo]

12. It's an amazing coincidence

Almost every time I see one of these types of posts... the poster has 52 posts to his/her name (or less than five).

On edit - of course, now it's 53... so she's probably ok. :-)

[axollot]

17. honestly

I am OK. Voting Kerry/Edwards. Active moveon.org member also.

If my hubby was home he would be able to mumble off the facts quicker than shit and kill this lame email. But he is one of the lucky few that have a job and so I come to the only other group I know who could get the facts of this so quick!

[MissB]

19. Welcome to DU (belatedly)! (nt)

[axollot]

23. thanks this is the first...

welcome since post number 20 or so LOL!

[Ms. Clio]

33. welcome to DU!

I am so tired of the "low post count" police.

[axollot]

18. honestly

I am OK. Voting Kerry/Edwards. Active moveon.org member also.

If my hubby was home he would be able to mumble off the facts quicker than shit and kill this lame email. But he is one of the lucky few that have a job and so I come to the only other group I know who could get the facts of this so quick!

[Frodo]

20. Now you're double-posting to gain credibility??

Just kidding. I'm sure you're fine.

Welcome! :hi:

[axollot]

25. still stumbling

around DU and the DU do's and the DU don'ts.

This site has taken up more of my time than any other I have been on!

Its addictive. I lurked for the most part of 2002, registered in 2003 and started posting on and off. Now that I can no longer work due to a disability and I get to fight SSI for payment, I have more time to post - even BS these days LOL!

[ClassWarrior]

27. Enough of the low-post-count bigotry!

Cripes, aren't we supposed to be the ones who give folks the benefit of the doubt??

[TX-RAT]

28. Careful Frodo

I got a post deleted last week for saying basically the same thing.
I believe i accused someone of third party posting.
I must admit i look at posts like this with a suspicious view.

[snippy]

4. I always tell anyone who says things like this that only an extremely

ignorant liar would believe or repeat this shit. It usually shocks them.

[PsN2Wind]

5. You might point out that the VietNam

casualties were mostly incurred after Nixon took office. Nixon had
"a secret plan to get us out of VietNam" he just failed to mention it would take five years to implement.

[Beware the Beast Man]

6. I can refute one point:

FDR... led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did. From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost an average of 112,500 per year.

Germany, in fact, DID declare war on the United States as part of the Axis powers on Dec. 8, 1941.

[wtmusic]

7. Don't give this nonsense any credence by repeating it n/t

[gatorboy]

8. Where's the proof to this whole "Osama was offered to Clinton" legend?

n/t

[axollot]

14. Thanks everyone, theres been alot of interesting points made

I appreciate all of them! It also must be the republican chain letter of the week if its been posted here before. I also want to find out about the osama BS thing with Clinton. Wonder if snopes has it!

[ima_sinnic]

9. this same e-mail was covered in a DU thread a few days ago

see this for some responses:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2007693

[Don_G]

10. Send Him This

Along with a fifth if you can....

[CBHagman]

13. Whoever wrote that knows nothing of history.

Bosnia Hercegovina was the site of the bloodiest warfare in Europe since the Second World War. Inter-ethnic violence involved rape, massacres, sniper attacks, and expulsions. The first Bush administration took a passive approach to the whole Balkans situation, and it wasn't until the Clinton administration that military involvement and the eventual Dayton peace accords came about.

Following the end of Balkans war, Clinton, his wife and daughter visited Bosnia and talked to the people. Remember, this was a country where neighbors killed neighbors and going across a bridge could mean instant death.

If Iraq is so "liberated," why the hell can Bush only go in there under cover of darkness and secrecy, only to be whisked out again?

If he's a "liberator," why do the Irish, British and Italians all greet him with massive demonstrations? Why is he extremely unpopular in both the Western and Arab worlds?

If Afghanistan is "liberated," why does the country remain in chaos, ruled chiefly by warlords who are not concerned with such niceties as human rights?

And that's just for starters.

[axollot]

15. mind if I copy and ppaste you? n/t

[CBHagman]

31. You can copy and paste to your heart's content, and ...

...don't forget the resource "Ghost Wars," a recent book on the whole background of the development of terrorism in Asia. I think that covers the whole business about trying to get Osama bin Laden. The chestnut that Clinton was "offered" Osama bin Laden has been debunked pretty thoroughly.

[mrboba1]

16. For the first line:

There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January.

In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January.

Ask this:
How many Detroit police officers died in January?
or alternatively
How many Iraqis died in January?

For WWII:
Japan attacked us. We declared war on Japan. Germany declared war on us.

For Korea: N Korea invaded & destroyed S Korea. We (with the UN) intervened. (Sounds like Bush I in Kuwait to me!)

Need I go on?

[axollot]

21. Everyones posts have been helpful

I hope this shuts him up. Previously, I have only had to use Snopes etc to refute his bullshit. But as the election time gets closer and closer I expect more and more of this.

Just so some might understand this will be the first time I have had a chance to vote in the US. I have lived all my adult life in Australia and I am a duel Cit. I lived about 6 months under Clinton the rest under the shrub!

Compared with Australia, the US is shit. I mean that because all I have had the real experience with has been under the Bush Admin. Prior to that I was a teen under Regan and didn't know shit about politics. I am still learning.

Even in Australia I leaned toward the "labour" government and left Just as Johnny Howard was getting going under the "liberal" party. Don't let the name fool you - its hardly liberal and more like what I see in the republican party here. Thanks everyone!

[sadiesworld]

22. 140,000 US troops in Iraq, Detroit pop.:approx. 1 mil.

[ProfessorGAC]

24. Correct! That Comparison Only Works If 5(!) Soldiers Were Killed

One seventh (14.3%) of the potential targets, 112% of the deaths. The death rate is disproportionate by a factor of 8!

Or, let's add in the number of non-combatant deaths. Makes the comparison specious. Anyone who believes this flat earth logic is too stupid to debate with.
The Professor

[alarcojon]

26. This stat reminds me of Brit Hume's comparison

with California about a year ago:

Two hundred seventy-seven U.S. soldiers have now died in Iraq, which means that statistically speaking U.S. soldiers have less of a chance of dying from all causes in Iraq than citizens have of being murdered in California, which is roughly the same geographical size. The most recent statistics indicate California has more than 2300 homicides each year, which means about 6.6 murders each day. Meanwhile, U.S. troops have been in Iraq for 160 days, which means they're incurring about 1.7 deaths, including illness and accidents each day.

Wilkipedia goes on to debunk that one thoroughly; I'm sure the argument applies quite well to this new incarnation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_Hume

[ClassWarrior]

29. Ask him...

...does the fact that 39 people were killed in Detroit justify killing 35 people in Iraq? For that matter, does the fact that Saudi Arabian terrorists killed 2,000 people in NYC justify killing Iraqis? The Detroit statistic is a non sequitir.

And remind him that all the votes in Florida weren't even counted in the first place - much less recounted.

Oh, and welcome to DU!!

[LanternWaste]

30. A few

Germany declared war on the U.S. prior to the U.S. declaring war on Germany. (Do these guys ever read a book without pictures of pet goats?)

North Korea attacked a sovereign nation with which we had an alliance. Additionally, we had full support of the U.N. which made up over 45% of the troop level in that conflict as opposed to *'s "coalition" of Estonian, Polish and Luxembourgian alliance...

U.S. troops were already in Viet Nam when Kennedy came into office. True. He did increase troop levels there... from 335 to 521. Woo-boy! Eisenhower was the Pres. that initially sent the U.S. military there. (Do these guys ever read a book?)

Johnson did turn Viet Nam into a quagmire. Won't argue with that. Nice thing about being a Democrat is admitting a perceived mistake. Although, I hope they all realize that Johnson wasn't Pres. until '75... we had already gone through one full administration of Nixon and were well into our Ford years when the U.S. pulled out.

Huh? Clinton *did* have U.N. consent.

Offered on a platter? Please show reputable sources to cite this claim. (Reputable means no radio talk show hosts or news editorialists...). It's simply not true.

The war has been going on for quite a bit more than 51 days. Unless you are referring to the capture of Baghdad. If that's the case and the war is over... why are our boys still being killed? Heck of a way to run Peace if you ask me...

...and the First Lady found the documents in question. Get back to me on this one if we find WMD.

And it's taking more time to find the WMD than it took for the the 3rd ID to destroy the Medina Div. Just come right and say it... everything is the Clinton's fault-- from your bad tooth to the flat you had the other day.

Again, if we have taken Iraq and were successful in doing so, WHY IN GOD'S NAME ARE OUR TROOPS STILL BEING KILLED????

[Downtown Hound]

32. As for the comment about the Branch Davidian compound

The 51 days this fool mentions were mostly a buildup and negotiation phase. The actual assault took a matter of hours.

The buildup and "negotiation" phase (I use that word tongue in cheek, Bush never meant to negotiate) to the Iraq invasion took months, much longer than 51 days.

[axollot]

34. I never learn

This is the same rethug that has sent me emails like the one about gore saying he was terrified of osama bin laden back at the ollie north trials (which i smoked him on using snopes)

Hes always sending me shit like this and today when i get more crap from him - i want to slam him. Could be because i haven't had enough coffee yet...dunno...I should know better, but I am human I suppose, well last i checked anyway.

I keep him around as a friend because he provides me with freelance work. He fancies himself a computer tech and since he networks with a lot of people (usually church folk) he gets computer jobs.
Well he can never fix them, usually makes it worse then he calls me.
I charge him for my time and I charge him hard. Last one we went on, he gave an estimate of 280 dollars. He ended up there for 3 weeks. I fixed it in 3 hours got 100 bucks. end of story.
I will get more like this and it helps me keep my head above water as I have no other income at this time.

[axollot]

35. OK sharing time

I sent the info off that some of you supplied and this was his reply

quote

LOL! You keep on calling it a war in Iraq. Yes! We forget we are at war with terrorism not Iraq. We are there helping them gain their freedom and independence that is why there is no war pay.

In order to declare we are at war we have to declare the country we are at war with, are we at war with Iraq?

end quote

So I sent him this culled from www.dictionary.com

war (wôr)
n.

A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties.
The period of such conflict.
The techniques and procedures of war; military science.

A condition of active antagonism or contention: a war of words; a price war.
A concerted effort or campaign to combat or put an end to something considered injurious: the war against acid rain.

They really don't read do they?

[CBHagman]

36. No, they don't.

His writing skills are pretty abysmal, too.

I notice he doesn't address any of the issues.

Next time, perhaps you can tell him it's so much easier to hit the "send" button for another forwarded e-mail than it is to actually read up on past and current events.

[axollot]

41. I had already said as much

I asked him to stop sending these chainmails without checking the validity of them first.

[ClassWarrior]

37. Ahhh... the "War on Concept" arguement.

Ask him how we can declare war on a concept. For that matter, ask him how the war on drugs went.

And next time, don't do his research for him. Tell him sweetly that you won't accept any of it unless he backs up each and every allegation with a citation - a web address, newspaper issue and page, TV transcript, or the like.

That'll shut him up.

[ClassWarrior]

38. One more point...

If we're fighting a war on terrorism, not Iraq, why haven't we invaded Saudi Arabia, by far the largest sponsor of Middle Eastern terrorism in the world?

[Downtown Hound]

40. I love the whole

"We're there to bring them freedom" crap. Okay, ask him if they're so free now then why can't they choose their own leaders? They have to live with ones hand-picked by us. Ask him why all of the rebuilding is being done by multi-national corporations who will reap all of the profits and the Iraqi people get nothing. Ask him why, if they're now so free to live as they want to live, why the U.S. shuts down newspapers it doesn't like, raids homes and tears down posters of Iraqi clerics opposed to the U.S. occupation. If that's freedom, I must be missing something.

[thecrow]

39. How's this?

http://www.tilenut.com/yo/BUSH_record.html