Article "56 Deceits of F9/11" --- Intriguing.

[neverborn]

It seems to be well sourced and everything. It's not saying Moore outright lied.. just more of Moore's twisted "half-truth" type things. What do you all think? :/

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

[kodi]

1. already debunked here

http://www.dailykos.com/main/4

[neverborn]

14. Excellent posts from an excellent blog. Thank you.

[MattNC]

32. where is it on there

i'm not seeing it. (really tired at the moment)

[MirrorAshes]

40. direct link

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/7/18/173312/462

[DenverDem]

2. Total bullshit.

Both the article and the fact that you bring it here.

[neverborn]

6. Because I'm open minded?

Because I'm willing to consider that maybe, just maybe, Michael Moore isn't God?

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[neverborn]

11. My agenda?

Why don't you come right out and say it? Just because I dare to step outside the boundaries of "MM can do no wrong" groupthink I'm a Republican? Bullshit.

If I knew it was debunked, I wouldn't have posted it here.

[PeaceForever]

29. Who cares what other people think?

Formulate your OWN beliefs and stop caring what people think of you. That's my attitude, anyway.

[ChocolateSaltyBalls]

12. Intriguingly, his/her agenda isn't as clear as you say it is........

Moore opens himself and his films to this sort of 'debunking' because in trying to make his arguments more forceful he tends to present things out of context and thereby opens the door to allow those opposed to him and his ideas to point to little tiny things that he does to discredit the whole work.

An example of this in 'Bowling for Columbine' is at the end of the Charlton Heston interview when Heston is walking away down the stairs and toward his house and Moore pulls out the picture of the little girl who was killed in Flint, Moore makes it seem like he wouldn't turn and look at the picture. This makes it seem like Heston is a heartless monster unwilling to look at the face of a gunshot victim, but in reality Moore re-shot the scene from a different angle after Heston had already departed the area and edited the two shots together as if they happened simultaneously.

I hate that Moore does this, especially in F911 because the case is so strong against Bush that doing so gives ammo to those who simply want to dismiss the entire film just because of a few extremely minor contextual omissions.

[neverborn]

13. Thank you.

You can be liberal and not agree with MM.

[Cat Atomic]

23. But those so-called "deceits" are ridiculous.

The author considers it a "deceit" for MM to present 9-11 as a tragedy because, according to the writer, MM thinks the 9-11 tragedy was a good thing.

Anyone who makes an argument like that is either nuts, or a paid shill. It's such obvious bullshit that it doesn't even deserve attention.

[Columbia]

8. MM isn't God here

He's just got an immunity pass. He can do no wrong.

[Jax]

21. Bulshit...right wing bullshit

Why do you hide your profile Columbia?


Jax

[Webster Green]

9. Bullshit!.......Michael Moore is God! (n/t)

[The_Casual_Observer]

3. I think the guy is nuts for spending all that time for nothing

Also, he must be blind already from all that small type. Why did he stop at a half-assed number like 56? couldn't he come up with an even 100 or a respectable 1000? Surely he could have done better than 56.

BTW the real number here is 59, still waaaaaaay to small too convince me!

[LeighAnn]

4. *snores* n/t

[Mr_Spock]

5. Just another "oh look at this interesting xxxx of F-911 BY FREEPERS"

yawn

[Forkboy]

10. What parts did you find "intriguing"?

[notbush]

15. Total bullshit????????a piece of crap??????

I think followers of M.M. must all proscribe to "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" philosophy.
M.M. and his support of Nader in 2000 had a lot to do with Gore losing......what I believe, is that he is an egotistical,pompous, fat man......who will do whatever it takes to make a buck.
Flame away...... I don't read the "dailykos" to "totally debunk" the article. Maybe I'm a little thick?

[Forkboy]

16. Alrighty then

:eyes:

[notbush]

17. Alrighty????????

[Forkboy]

28. Does the word bother you somehow?

:shrug:

[U4ikLefty]

18. Regardless of what may have occured in 2000 this is the present

I think Moore is clear that we need to get rid of Bush this election. Perhaps his outright endorsment of Kerry is a good thing since it may polarize some of the "swing voters" he is currently courting.

[Bridget Burke]

19. "Maybe I'm a little thick?"

You said it. I didn't.

It's really good to see all the energy expended to keep the message of Farenheit 9/11 from getting out. But the message will still get out.

Oh, and he's "fat". My, what an original thinker you are.

[notbush]

20. Before you pull out the "long knives"...

Have you read the dave kopel article....have you read the dailykos blog????
If you have ...let's talk.

[neverborn]

24. Who cares if he's a fat man?

[PeaceForever]

30. I care to the extent that I'm concerned about his health.

I've had two relatives in their 50s die of heart attacks. I wish MM would adopt a healthier lifestyle.

However, making fun of people because they are obese is inappropriate and immoral.

[yankeedem]

27. Wow, he's fat

Let's string him up then! Can't believe someone who is fat, can we? All fat people are liars.

[Bandit]

38. How can Moore be God when we all know it is Bush*...right?

:shrug: Moore is a patriot nothing more and nothing less. He is sometimes a real asshole and he is the first to admit that. In fact it is his schtick. He deliberately gets "in your face" in most of his movies and that is what attracts some. He uses this technique to get his message out. He is very successful in getting out his message whether you agree with his style or his message. He is very able and getting more polished with every movie.

[Warren DeMontague]

22. For example...

In scene with the military recruiters, Michael Moore claims that they are standing outside of the local Mervyn's. However, watching the film, it is clearly an Old Navy. Michael Moore...Deliberately distorting the truth!

[notbush]

25. Did you read the Dave Kopel piece?????

Inquiring minds want to know?

[Warren DeMontague]

26. I read enough of it.

Aside from Repeatedly Quoting Flatulating Greasy Asshat Christopher Hitchens as a primary source, it seems to contain most of the same kind of nit-picky piddly bitching that most "Bowling for Columbine" wannabe debunkers engaged in.. "The Gore Rally took place the morning of the election, not the night".. Wow. That really changes the gravity of what the movie has to say.

"Oregon State troopers are not the responsibility of the federal government" No? But if "Homeland Security" was as big of a deal as Bushco. keeps pretending it is, (so much that they need to cancel the election, apparently) they'd do something about it, wouldn't they?

Or this one:

Moore’s pro-Saddam allegation that Saddam "never threatened to attack the United States" is true in the narrow sense that Saddam never gave a speech in which he threatened to, for example, send the Iraqi navy and army to conduct an amphibious invasion of Florida. But although Saddam never threatened the territorial integrity of America, he repeatedly threatened Americans. For example, on November 15, 1997, the main propaganda organ for the Saddam regime, the newspaper Babel (which was run by Saddam Hussein's son Uday) ordered: "American and British interests, embassies, and naval ships in the Arab region should be the targets of military operations and commando attacks by Arab political forces."

Yeah.. And? The bottom line is clear to anyone who's been paying attention for the past 15 years-- Iraq never attacked us. They attacked Kuwait after April Glaspie, under Bush I, gave Saddam the green light to do so. At which point we went to war, not to "protect democracy", but to protect the rights of the Emir of Kuwait, someone who now wants nothing more than to give us the finger. The above 1997 "order" took place under a situation that was still an extension of Gulf War I.

See, I could sit here all frikkin night with this piece of tripe, but what's the point? I've got laundry to do. If conservatives want to argue (because, hell, they need something) that Moore's movie is "deceitful" because, gosh darnit, he showed the stupid lady screaming at Laura Lipscomb to "blame al qaeda" for her son's death, but doesn't show the woman apologizing afterwards... ("deceit" number, what, 46?) Well, that's too damn bad. The guy's a filmmaker, he can edit his film how he f*cking wants. If this Kopel guy wants to make a movie expressing his point of view, let him get the film and the camera and the crew and do it. There is no "equal time guarantee" for a documentary. Sorry.

Meanwhile, who is the "Independence Institute?" Well, according to them, they are "a non-partisan, non-profit public policy research organization dedicated to providing timely information to concerned citizens, government officials, and public opinion leaders." Hmmm. Sounds "fair and balanced". But, what about, "Because the pursuit of happiness and the enjoyment of life and liberty are matters of individual choice, the Institute addresses a broad variety of public policy issues from a free-market, pro-freedom perspective." ...Well, who could argue with that?

One wonders, however, just who they're shilling for.. considering that, when they line up their roster of experts on "Public Health Policy", for example, they've got Bob Moffett from The Heritage Foundation talking about how to "Reform Health Care".. Think the Heritage Foundation is worrying about how to insure the 40 million americans with no health insurance? F*ck no. They are worried about how they can best criminalize all abortion, and most forms of birth control, to boot. Ooooh, pretty "non-partisan", over there at the "Independence Institute"

And what's this? They've got a whole section devoted to The second Amendment... Managed by.. surprise! Mr. Dave Kopel. Hmmmm. Could this particular man have a previous axe to grind with Michael Moore? For some reason? Anyone? ... Bueller?

In short, this is a right-wing agit-prop think tank, and they've got a hard-on for Michael Moore to boot. Big surprise. Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got laundry to do.

[bobbyboucher]

31. Kabam!

Could be a knockout.

[trumad]

33. In a nutshell

those who diss Moore because of his weight or his film style or the way he presented F9/11 are fucking idiots...Period!

[Forkboy]

34. Amen

:thumbsup:

[MsUSA]

35. impeachdubya!!!

Wow, an outstanding piece of writing!!! *hugs*

[Still_Loves_John]

36. I have to say that

the part on Florida was interesting. I felt a little cheated knowing that that Gore rally they showed was not in response to Florida being called for Gore.

Pretty much all the rest, though, is just stupid. He misrepresents Moore's positions and attacks those misrepresentations. When he's talking about Bush's "I call you my base" speech, he defends it as a joke. Well, of course it's a joke, but it's a telling joke. But the way he presents it, if you haven't seen the movie you will think that Moore misrepresents Bush in that part. The real audience for this article are people who haven't seen the movie, and won't be able to recognize when he mischaracteizes it.

Edit: Holy shit! I just read a little more. It's talking about the passed out prisoner scene. He says that it's no big deal because it's just a passed out old man. That's even worse! So our soldiers are abusing civilians on the streets?

[trumad]

39. It was a dream sequence....A Dream that we all had...

I'll say it again..It was a dream....

[90-percent]

37. moore 2000

In Stupid White Men Moore wrote he pleaded with Ralph Nader to throw all of his support towards Gore towards the end of the race.

I think it was damn good advice that Ralph stupidly rejected.

Moore's only as flawed as the rest of us are. I think hes a great patriot who has given back to his country and is helping to bring his country back to his senses.

Let the talented freepers make movies with their point of view. And tell them to make them as entertaining as Moore does.

-85%

[enki23]

41. more of this shit???

it hasn't changed yet. it's still shit. and the same people keep pretending we should all continue to be interested in it.

[wtmusic]

42. Too funny

We're going to parse the whole fucking screenplay of F911 the way we did the 17 words of Junior's SOTU.

I wonder if Dave was perspiring when he wrote this?