Is it fair to charge prisoners for room and board?

[rawstory]

As seen on the new liberal alternative to Drudge: http://rawstory.com

By Sara B. Miller | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

DARTMOUTH, MASS. – Sheriff Thomas Hodgson took away their weights and pull-up bars and rolled their television sets out of sight. He banned smoking - and thenslapped a daily $5 room-and-board fee for the 1,000-some inmates in his custody.

The sheriff, whose controversial moves have made headlines before, equates himself to being "the tough-love parent." But the Bristol County House of Correction inmates and their advocates see nothing parental about it, and they've filed a class-action suit claiming that the "cost of care" charges are unconstitutional in Massachusetts. The case could affect how other sheriffs across the state set fees in county jails - from haircut costs to medical co-pays.

"Pay to stay" fees have soared in popularity across the nation in the past 15 years, as budgets have shrunk while "get tough on crime" rhetoric has flourished. Some counties charge inmates the actual cost of care per day - $60 in some states.

Prison researchers estimate that a third of the nation's 3,000-some county jails levy room-and-board fees. In state correctional systems, 53 percent attach the fees, according to a 2002 survey by the American Correctional Association.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0721/p02s01-usju.html

[freetobegay]

1. Yes. N/T

[laylah]

2. Unequivocally and

across the board? Your reasoning, please and thank you.

Jenn

[freetobegay]

4. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

I am sick and tired of hearing about inmates rights! I wished people here were more interested in victims rights & making sure victims were compensated than the other way around. It's disgusting!

Does that clarify it for you?

[lostnfound]

9. Would that include the Tulia Texas inmates? nt

[Ms. Clio]

17. Apparently this reference flew right over the head n/t

[Ms. Clio]

10. Wow, glad you are so certain that everyone in prison deserves to be there

I'm not.

[freetobegay]

11. And what is your stance on vitims rights?

Or do you believe they don't have any?

[Ms. Clio]

14. Yeah, that's right, I don't believe they have any---sheesh

Do you long for the days when the victims of a crime could rouse a posse and just lynch whoever they believed was responsible?

[bpilgrim]

15. listen O'Really

the victim has the right to demand the state intervene on his/her behalf to begin with but stop it with the RW wacko talking points already, sheesh.

peace

[freetobegay]

18. "but stop it with the RW wacko talking points"

Thats classic! Is everyone who doesn't subscribe to your way of thinking a rightwing wacko? :eyes:

[bpilgrim]

20. please

no

peace

[freetobegay]

22. Then you should really pay attention to what you write.

Like Bush should pay attention to what he says. See the difference?

See two people can play that game.

[bpilgrim]

23. likewise

night

peace

[freetobegay]

24. Just what I thought another hit & run.

[regnaD kciN]

35. "Straw Man" Alert...!

You're setting up a false dichotomy. One can support the notion of victim's rights while at the same time holding that incarcerated prisoners have rights which must be upheld as well.

To claim that supporting the right of prisoners to humane treatment is equivalent to denying victims have any rights is on about the same level as claiming that anyone who opposes Bush ipso facto "hates America."

:eyes:

[bpilgrim]

13. sounds just like how FOX would spin

sure sounds like a helluva business plan for the police state, though :toast:

peace

[freetobegay]

19. You love to accuse people of being a right winger

Don't you.

[bpilgrim]

21. no

i pointed to the RW 'talking points'

peace

[mongo]

16. That would be great

If we stopped filling our prisons with non-violent drug offenders. In my county, you are more likely to do time for drug paraphernalia than for assault.

[Bo]

29. Very True Mongo....

Its time we stopped filling up prisons with non-violent drug offenders. Its just a revenue scheme.

[kodi]

32. no, but it clarifies you for me.

you speak like one who has never set foot in a prison or jail and that ignorance is stultifying.

you want prison riots? take away simple things like tv and smoking. medical care in the US penal system is akin to that found in third world countries. prison doctors are usually one step ahead of malpractice suits and the food is rancid.

do you know how tough it is in jail, that more men are raped in jail each day in america than are women outside of jail?

but you obviously think that is okay, since prisoners should have no rights according to you.

as to your remarks about victims, it might be wise to check the facts on just who is in US jails and why. you will find that the majority of people in jail are there on drug or non-violent charges and in such cases "society" is the victim.

mostly, it is poor, uneducated men and women who are in jail and the efforts they receive from the judicial system to defend them fairly is laughable if it were not so sad.

but the fact is when you are in prison you are stripped of any dignity, you don't own your own body and are treated like shit and the personal threats to one's own body and inherent violence one finds behind prison walls and jails is sufficient punishment enough.

it is a jungle behind those walls and i wish that experience on no one....except perhaps you, so you can get a taste of what really happens on the inside.

btw: you might not be a right-winger, but you sure have the patter down

[laylah]

37. I wish more people

were interested in FAIRNESS...over 50% of inmates in this country are mentally ill...starting back in the '80's when Raygun shut down the mental health facilities and day treatment centers, maybe, MAYBE 15% are in for violent crimes, the rest drug related and other charges. Prisons are a money making commodity...Illinois being the lead offender of abuse of prisoner rights (IMVHO)...I would agree that the violent perps should have to pay restitution, other than that, no!

As it is now, medical care, having been outsourced, is worse than that in a 3rd world country. I personally know of men in a particular Illinois Corrections Center who are walking around with life threatening conditions but who are not being treated because that would take money out of the contractor's pocket! These men write grievances to this fact and the grievance never makes it out of the facility, giving them no recourse.

At this same institution, meals have been cut to half portions...no-one over 21 can have milk with their meals, other than at breakfast. As of August 1, all meals will be soy based, to save money. The local AFSCME got a bill pushed through the legislature last spring that raised commissary prices by 25-35%, putting an undue burden on the FAMILIES because they don't want to see their loved ones go without the basics. Those that don't HAVE families, are SOL!

I believe in victim's rights, you bet; however, those incarcerated are not animals, they are STILL human beings and should be treated as such. Yes, they should work while incarcerated, pulling their own as best they can but that money should be made available at release to help them get reestablished. Right now, they get $5 and a bus ticket. And we wonder why the recidivism rate is so high!

Just my personal pov.

Jenn

[Ms. Clio]

3. I have never understood this

Reminds me of English prisons in the 18th century.

[Massacure]

5. I have no problems with this as long as the prisoners get jobs to earn $$$

If the prisoners have no income, then it is obviously unfair.

[AlienGirl]

6. The danger then becomes indentured servitude

If the prison can charge the inmates room and board, and they must work for insanely low wages ($.40/hr) for a corporation that's contracting with the prison in order to pay off their debt, how is that different from slave labor?

Please remember also, many prisoners are in prison not for violent crime, but for drug possession and/or for being mentally ill and inconvenient.

Tucker

[IA_Seth]

12. $.40/hour

I think this might even be a high estimate. The few people I know who ever did any time were making in the .30/hour or less range.

[AndyP]

7. I agree

Otherwise it's not going to help anything, just make poor people who come out of jail even more poor.

[Amarant]

8. No

One of the few things stopping people from going back to a life of crime after leaving jail the potential to live within the law. If you strap them down with bills they may not be able to pay then you are lessening the chance they will be able to live within the law. Just getting a job after being released from prison is a major ordeal.

[TroubleMan]

25. Charging prisoners for the time they're there is just wrong.

It's not like they have a choice to be there. They are required to be there, and often there's a monetary fine already. Well over 99% of the prison population are poor people.

This is just another form of class warfare. I know you're there as a punishment, but you can't make people pay for their own punishment, and you can't force them to pay money (a large majority of them don't have it anyway) to live in some place they are forced to live.

This would be just as bad as Germany charging the Jews to stay at the concentration camps.

[Madrone]

27. "It's not like they have a choice to be there."

Ummm...no. They made a choice - BEFORE being sentenced to prison. They made the choice to commit a crime.*

Prison ain't supposed to be no country club. As far as I'm concerned, there should be no tv, etc - and prisoners should be working in some capacity or another. One, so they can be productive members of the human race, and two - to help pay their "rent" - so to speak.









*Disclaimer - yes, yes - except for the comparitively small number that may have been falsely imprisoned for a crime they did not commit. My opinion still stands.

[TroubleMan]

28. um.....NO!!!.....NOT ALL OF THEM MADE A "CHOICE" TO BE THERE

Over 90% of people incarcerated are there because they are poor.

Trust me...it ain't no fucking country club. It's horrible just to be there...unless you go to one of the rich people prisons, which I feel shouldn't be different from what the regular poor people go to.

You obviously have never been charged with a crime. A lot of people spend months incarcerated before even going to trial. Many people are there just because they made a mistake - often not intentional. Most are guilty as shit, but it doesn't mean that it has to be hell while they're serving time. That's counter-productive. It gives them no incentive to be productive in jail, because they have no privileges to lose or obtain. It also makes it harder to reintegrate into society.

I guarantee every single person above the age of 18 has done something they could be put in jail for. They either haven't gotten caught, did something they didn't know was a crime, or those who knew didn't report them or didn't know it was a crime either.

Also you can't be "made" to work - that's the definition of slavery. Getting good time or extra privileges for work makes sense, but being forced to work is a highly unethical thing to do. Your suggestions would make it harder for them to "be productive members of the human race."

For instance, you think those two gay dudes who were arrested in Texas when the cops barged in on them having sex (and they were arrested for sodomy), should be put in a prison of the making you suggest?

You suggest a slave labor camp with no sense of the outside world (the TV), and that they'll end up owing money for staying there. Your method of punishment has been tried before and has been shown to the wrong way to do it.

Also, things aren't always black and white. Most people who go to jail or prison aren't bad people, they're just people who made a stupid mistake, were in a desperate situation due to addiction or poverty, or were who selectively targeted for something harmless (like minorities or casual drug users). There are bad people there, don't get me wrong, but they usually end up like that because they can't get out of the system or they went through some horrible life experience (your method of incarceration would be one of these experiences and deepen the trauma of other experiences). Your method will increase recidivism by putting poor people in more debt, and decreasing their chance to get back into normal society, because they came out of one of your slave camps.

Trust me, even police, most judges, and corrections officers say that's not the way to go. Incarceration is bad enough. Forcing people into slavery and debt is ridiculous and wrong.

I understand your viewpoint, because it's obvious you've never done any time, worked in prisons, or worked with rehabilitating ex-felons. However, you're looking at the world like the situation is black-white, right-wrong, with no in-betweens. That's not how any situation is - ever. There's always shades of gray. There is no absolute. Maybe you were a victim of a crime and you're traumatized by that, but you have to get past this viewpoint. This is similar to the viewpoint of the religious right, a "you're either with us or against us" point of view. That way of looking at things is always counterproductive and wrong - often it's destructive.

[Madrone]

33. I'm do not view the world as black and white - I assure you.

As for prison, you are correct, I have not been locked up. It ain't just because of blind luck and not being "caught" either - although I suppose I could have been in trouble for MJ at some point - HOWEVER - that's another issue entirely, as the entire prison system should be overhauled if for minor drug offenses alone.

I DO know many people very well that have been in prison. The most recent (and last of my "circle") parolee being my stepbrother, who was out in April - and damned LUCKY he didn't get denied parole. I've known many people in prison and out over the years - I'm not just some sheltered white chick from the suburbs.

You're not going to convince me that being made to work is horrible and unethical punishment. My ass has to work every day to keep a roof over my head - who can I complain to regarding this slavery?

As for "the two gay dudes" - yep, I guess you got me there. Because a couple of gay guys *might* get thrown in prison on some trumped up bullshit charges we'd better err on the side of caution and make sure prison entails 3 hots, a cot, and assorted country club amenities. And god NO, please, please don't offend their delicate sensibilities by asking them to work. Jesus. I also never said anything about having them "end up owing money" for staying there - they can work, and pay a paltry amount (I think someone else mentioned $5/day) from their wages toward their keep. I think that is TOTALLY fair.

Let me tell you something - the prisons of america today have a lot more heinous shit to worry about than *god forbid* requiring prisoners to be productive to an extent. Prison is not an extended vacation.

I have/would tell any of the people I love/like/respect in my life that have been in prison the SAME thing. I'm not judgmental, I accept them and forgive them - but I call 'em like I see 'em.

I am 100% without question, in ALL cases against the death penalty. I am FOR prison being a punishment, and felons being productive members of society EVEN on the inside and taking responsibility for their actions.

So, while it may surprise you to hear it - I do agree with and understand much of what you are saying. I will never agree that putting prisoners to work, and taking a small portion of their wages for room and board is unethical.

[doctorbombeigh]

26. Of course it's wrong to charge them.

Jesus cheneying christ.

You keep someone in a cell for years, force them to work for you, take away their constitutional rights and as a special treat - charge 'em five bucks a day for it.

Umm... yeah. No thanks. Not only is it ethically unsound, it's just plain dumb. A smart con once said, "If you put a dog in a cage and beat him every day, don't be surprised if he bites you when you let him out."

Of course, I have no interest in punishing other people so any revenge or punitive aspect is meaningless to me. As far as I'm concerned the only ethical reason for removing someone from a free society is to protect others within that society and it's more than enough. Anything beyond that is a state-stroll down sadism lane that I don't want any part of.

If individual victims and/or their families wish to exact some sort of personal revenge, that's another question entirely and one I'm less sure about. If they're willing to accept the consequences...

[banana republican]

30. ARE THESE CHARGES DISCHARGED IN BANKRUPTCY????

IF SO SCREW THEM....

WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO; KEEP PEOPLE IN JAIL UNTIL THEY PAY IT OFF???

HOW ROMAN OF THEM

[napi21]

31. No, because they have no way to pay it!

If a prisoner earns $.40 per hour, and works 8 hours a day, they only earn $3.20 per day. I certainly don't believe in coddling prisoners, but I do think they should have some money when they get out. At that rate, they earn a whopping $1,168.00 a year! I agree, some nicities should have a cost. Maybe candy, cigarettes, movies, even the weight room. But not room & board.

If prisons are supposed to REFORM or REHABILITATE people, they have to have some means of survival when they get out. The pawltry earnings at least help with that.

[regnaD kciN]

34. No, because...

...it's an addition to the sentence imposed by the corrections system, not the judicial system, without any basis in the inmate's behavior.

If someone is convicted of a crime, they can be sentenced to X days in jail and/or a fine of Y. This would essentially change the sentence for those in that jurisdiction to X days in jail and a fine of (X * 5) + Y. If a judge has determined that a fine is not necessary, this essentially imposes one anyway; if the judge decided a fine was necessary, this increases it far beyond what the judge determined was just.

[rman]

36. suppose you don't pay, what are the gonna do, arrest you?

this "the tough-love parent" is an exploiter.