"Street Hassle" A poem about street harassment by watrfae

[slinkerwink]

Street Hassle

Why is it that
I can't walk down
some non-city street
shopping center spoilt
thoroughfare
unmolested
as a woman?

Why is it that
I can't walk down
some suburban nightmare
and not expect
my body
to be commented on
as commonly
as red lights and storm clouds?

If white flight
has extended itself
onto former farms
displacing the already dispossessed
and pushed itself
onto an identical plot of land
with the same four stores
every half mile,
where did all these rude kids come from?

I didn't see sexual harassment
mentioned in your brochures
with the glossy photos
of good schools,
white washed homes
and model families
of matching pigment.

If your myth
of shelter and civility
against the tides of minorities
held weight
shouldn't the interactions
I experience
be something other
than obscene gestures
and pure intimidation?

Could it be that your
cookie cutter dream
of capitalistic integrity
are a shadow of reality
built on some one else's land
and a stolen and never actualized
identity?

I can't quite believe
that you approve of
rude boys confined into
cliched conventions
because you
can't contain
a woman like me.
What is so damned wrong
with wearing something
nearing revealing
on a hot summers day?
I can't quite believe
that my exposed back
is pure sex;
is something you need to rope in
and regulate.

I just refuse to believe
that I can't walk down
any sort of street
unmolested
as a woman.

http://www.livejournal.com/community/feminist_rage/289300.html?style=mine#cutid1

I decided to post the poem in its entirety because it echoes a lot of what I feel when I wear a low-cleavage top or a tight shirt out on the street. I can't even be comfortable in my body without having it subjected to street harassment in the forms of calls, leers, and car horns honking or rude comments. Face it, guys, sexism exists, and as a woman, I know more about it than you do or ever will. You cannot try to excuse sexism or street harassment away by saying, "oh, that's just boys reacting to a beautiful woman on the street" or using the lame and tried excuse "well, you were wearing tight clothes so you asked for it, really." You guys have brains....use them instead of your cocks. Stop looking at us women like we're pieces of meat to be ogled at, and stop giving us rude comments. Stop dressing us down because we're Republicans, bitches, women you don't like, by the way we dress. Every time you attack a woman based on her clothing by saying "she dresses too sluttish" or "since that jenna bush wears a low-cut top, she must be a slut who'll fuck anything" and you know those kind of comments exist here. That is sexism, and there's no trying to get around it.

[slinkerwink]

1. kick

[Dookus]

2. ooh boy!!

Is the embargo on sexism threads lifted?

[slinkerwink]

3. do you think her concern is valid or not?

:shrug:

[Dookus]

4. Nope..

not gonna play your little game.

[slinkerwink]

7. hmm-hmm

so nothing about the poem affected you that way? If you didn't want to comment on the poem or my reaction to it, then why did you bother to post in this thread at all? :shrug:

[Dookus]

9. I was asking

if the embargo on sexism threads were lifted. Pretty straightforward.

[slinkerwink]

10. I'm not the person to ask.....try ATA

:eyes:

[neuvocat]

5. This sounds just like

the post a few weeks ago from a woman who said she was always "visually raped" only by mexican men. Way to mix racism and sexual harassment there. Way to go.

[slinkerwink]

6. sorry, sexual harassment comes from all races

:shrug:

[neuvocat]

8. Then you overlooked this verse:

"I didn't see sexual harassment
mentioned in your brochures
with the glossy photos
of good schools,
white washed homes
and model families
of matching pigment."

[slinkerwink]

11. so you're nitpicking on one verse and not addressing the overal issue?

:shrug: It doesn't say that the model families are white...it says "of matching pigment"----the person who wrote the poem is satirizing the image of the "perfect" family in the suburbs in that verse.

[neuvocat]

13. You also overlooked this one:

"Could it be that your
cookie cutter dream
of capitalistic integrity
are a shadow of reality
built on some one else's land
and a stolen and never actualized
identity?"

There are others in there. That you need to really go over that poem more thoroughly. Your own comments at the end of that poem did better justice to the subject you brought up. That poem is trash.

[slinkerwink]

15. I liked that poem because it fit how I was feeling tonight

And I want you to address the subject of the poem which is street sexual harassment, instead of parsing the verses for nit-picking which avoids the subject the poem discusses.

[neuvocat]

19. That poem narrows it down too much.

What happened to you tonight is unfortunate but what you said in your own words so far throughout this thread expresses it a lot better.

[Suzi Creamcheese]

26. Whew

I thought I was the only one who thought that about the "poem". I thought maybe it was an advert for a record or something.

[BaysideLiberal]

161. I see what you mean n/t

[slinkerwink]

12. let me ask you something---do you think what she and I face in the streets

is sexism?

[neuvocat]

14. What you face is apparently sexism.

In that woman's case, there's more to it, given the racial overtones. I wouldn't doubt it for a minute she would figure she was being ogled by some guy and it never ocurred to her that the guy in question might be gay.

[slinkerwink]

16. such ogling is unwanted, from any guy, gay or not

and remarks being aimed at girls like us are unwanted, and it's an infringement on our freedom to wear what we want to wear.

[kiahzero]

17. Um, what?

it's an infringement on our freedom to wear what we want to wear.

So, if I go out wearing the most ridiculous outfit you can think of, and people leer at me, and laugh at me, that's "an infringement on <my> freedom to wear what <I> want to wear?"

No question that it's unwanted. The guys that make comments are probably assholes. But it's hardly infringing on your freedom. Wear what you like, and either educate or ignore the assholes.

[slinkerwink]

31. it's about wearing halter tops, or tank tops that we wear and

hell, I've even wore a t-shirt, and still got rude comments and leers on my clothing.

[Redhead488]

33. Rude comments are unacceptable,

but looks? Sorry, but if you look good, men are gonna look at you.

[slinkerwink]

40. I'm not buying that for a second

there's a difference between a look, and a leer. Do you know what it's like to be mentally undressed from top and toe just because I'm wearing a t-shirt or a tank top? That's sexual harassment.

[Redhead488]

44. Nothing wrong with looking

It's a fact of life. Men are going to look at atttractive women. NOTHING is ever going to change that. And yes, we are wondering what you look like naked and upside down.

[redqueen]

162. Well that didn't take long, did it?

Used to be that being beaten was 'a fact of life'.

Sick Cheneyers everywhere.

[neuvocat]

18. No argument there

although that poem singles out "rude boys". You don't have any mention of "rude girls" anywhere, do you?

[madrchsod]

20. rude girls????

when i was in 8th grade two girls told me i had a nice butt-that was in 1960...assholes,creeps,and low-lifes come in all races and sexes..unwanted attention isn`t a gender specific issue.

[neuvocat]

22. Exactly.

That's why that poem doesn't work. It singles men out, and at that a certain kind of man.

[redqueen]

163. Yeah that's something faced frequently by guys, isn't it?

:eyes:

Yes, it's wrong when they do it too, but let's address the *fact* that this happens daily to some women, and for some of them it doesn't matter WHAT they wear.

Large bosoms are a Cheneying curse.

[antigone382]

23. Actually, I think what the poet is saying

Is that in socially segregated, predominantly white neighborhoods, which try to appear more wholesome and clean than more culturally and racially diverse neighborhoods, sexism is just as bad as it is anywhere else. It's a comment against racism. That's the whole point.

[redqueen]

164. Nice to see someone that 'gets it'

I didn't think the point was all that hard to see, actually.

[thebigidea]

21. Lou Reed has a ditty by the same title

"I'm not being smart
or trying to be cold on my part
and I'm not gonna wear my heart on my sleeve
But you know people get all emotional
and sometimes, man, they just don't act rational you know,
they think they're just on TV"

- "Street Hassle"

[jpgray]

24. Biologically, we're built to look at you sexually

Part of the weirdness in this country comes from our strange Puritan-yet-sex-obsessed dichotomy, but all around the world men will always be looking at women and desiring them sexually. It doesn't matter what you wear, how you act, or how much you dislike it--we will always do it because that's the way we are. The only way to stop it would be to impose some Sharia type laws on the male gender (maybe like obligatory blinfolds in the presence of women--it would have to be pretty severe :)), and that ought to seem just as wrongheaded to you as when it is applied to the other gender.

Forcing the male gender into female sensibilities is not a possible goal--we are different, and recognizing that isn't sexist. A man who looks at you is doing nothing wrong, just as a woman who looks at a man in similar spirit is doing nothing wrong. The only way to limit that interaction would be to eliminate the sexual attraction men and women feel for one another. A person who reacts rudely to you is simply rude as an individual--it doesn't reveal the whole gender to be rude.

(edit: And that poem is lousy. Most poems with nothing going for them but an incendiary topic are.)

edit2: Also, if you're going to respond, answer this question: Should all instances of men looking at women in a sexually interested way be outlawed and/or frowned upon? If not, what sort of objective criteria could possibly separate the good from the bad?

[Krupskaya]

27. It seems to me...

...she wasn't talking about "looking." There's a big difference between looking and hollering, shouting, muttering, whistling, barking, howling, or demanding attention, which is a lot harder to deal with.

What drives me up a wall is how many men will not even stop to think about how a woman might feel when they holler at her. Some women like it, true. But many women don't. So why even bother?

[jpgray]

28. She wasn't?

"Stop looking at us women like we're pieces of meat to be ogled at"

[slinkerwink]

32. you really have no idea what it's like to be a woman wearing a

halter top or a tank top, and get all those sexual comments, leers, and rude gestures on the street. It's very unnerving. That's sexual harassment. If someone did that in the workplace, he would be fired immediately, but men do that in the street, and they're not pursued for sexual harassment.

[Redhead488]

35. Because you can't pursue them for that

What are you gonna do? Ban them from the streets for boorish behavior?

[slinkerwink]

38. no, it starts with speaking out, and telling men why their behavior is

unacceptable and disrespectful of women, and it just builds up the sexism and misogyny in this culture.

[Redhead488]

42. Looking is not

unaccceptable or disrespectful, nor is it sexist. I'm straight, I look at attractive women becasue they ARE women. That's a fact of nature.

[slinkerwink]

46. Nature or not......

There's a difference between looking and leering. Have you ever called out to a girl just walking down the street that her tits look hot in that top? Have you ever laughed, leaned back, and obviously watched her ass walk away? Have you ever stood around with a bunch of buddies and laughed about how hot the girl is and how great she'd be in bed?

That's sexual harassment.

[Redhead488]

49. No, and I agree those are wrong

I'm tlaking about LOOKING.

And guess what, some girls LIKE to be told their "tits look great in that top." There's a time and a place for everything; even the street.

[slinkerwink]

52. most girls don't like to be told that their tits look great in that top

they just want the freedom to walk by undisturbed and not have to worry about potential rape from guys who make those comments.

[Redhead488]

56. Don't even START that potential

rape CRAP. Most men do NOT rape women, now you are pushing it too far. As a graduate student at the Univ of MD, I had my name (along with that of every other male student) posted on a board under the title "Potential Rapist." That is plain bullshit!

[slinkerwink]

58. well, we DO worry about potential sexual abuse if we encounter

a guy or a bunch of guys who look at us like they want to fuck us, and make rude sexual comments about doing so. Are we supposed to think, "Awww, that's cute that they want to do that to us because we have a tank top on?"

[Redhead488]

62. Guess what?

If you look hot, MOST guys wanna fuck you. Doesn't mean they are gonna try. And it especially doesn't mean they are gonna rape you.

[slinkerwink]

64. how do we know that? we're the ones being leered at

and the ones receiving the sexual comments. How can we tell if the guy doing that isn't a guy that might be a potential rapist?

[Redhead488]

71. Because 99% of guys don't rape women

That's how.

[slinkerwink]

75. we still don't know that if we're sexually harassed in the street

with such looks and comments.

[Redhead488]

77. You don't know that 99%

of men don't rape women? You don't know that VERY few rapes EVER occur in the street?

[slinkerwink]

81. we have no way of knowing if it's that 1% out of the 99% making

street sexual harassment calls or remarks that might rape us.

[Redhead488]

83. First of all, 99% of men

do not make sexual harassement calls. Secondly, you know that looking abd catcalling is a LONG way from rape.

[slinkerwink]

94. no, we don't know that

because men are blatantly disrespecting us, and our bodies when they make leers and catcalls. It's an infringement on our personal space. Verbal abuse has the same effect as physical abuse.

[Baltimoreboy]

97. Where is this right to "personal space"

What amendment is that listed in?

[slinkerwink]

100. it's called pursuing one's happiness

and the right to personal space is listed in the sexual harassment laws in this country.

[Baltimoreboy]

104. Meanwhile I am pursuing MY happiness by looking

And no sexual harassment law prevents me from leering at a pretty woman on the street. The day someone passes such a law, I will go to a free country.

[redqueen]

167. Yeah, ethics don't count for shit anymore, right? Just laws.

Your right to be a chauvanist isn't outlawed, so you'll indulge and even MOVE TO A DIFFERENT COUNTRY if you can't irritate and intimidate women here.

Sick sick sick sick sick sick sick sick sick.

[Baltimoreboy]

85. If you don't like provocotive looks

Don't wear provocotive clothing.

And even then, if you are pretty enough, men will leer. It is part of biology. You could hide in your apartment. But since this is a free country, we reserve the right to leer.

[slinkerwink]

89. no, you do not have the right to leer

and it's an infringement on our personal space, as well as our freedom to wear light clothes. My point is that sexual harassment still happens even if I'm wearing baggy clothing. I want to have the right to wear a tank top so I won't have to sweat so much in a t-shirt.

[Baltimoreboy]

96. Actually, I do. Freedom of speech

Includes the right to look, leer and say obnoxious and stupid things. It also gives you the right to say obnoxious and stupid things to me or leer at me.

As long as I don't threaten you or stalk you, then I am within my rights. If I am working construction (OK, fat chance on that one) and a hot woman in a halter walks down the street, it is my right to be boorish and comment to my buddies about what a fine body she has.

You have a right to wear a tank top or halter. I have a right to notice you doing so.

[Redhead488]

98. He's right

He has the right to be a jerk. Not that he is, no offense intended BBoy, but he has that right.

[slinkerwink]

101. no, it's not your right to be boorish---it's called sexual harassment

and there are laws against that.

[Baltimoreboy]

107. Cite one please

Come on, cite how public leering is a violation of a law.

[slinkerwink]

111. here you go

Sexual harassment is far broader than a threat along the lines, "If you want to keep your job, you’ll have to go to bed with me." Courts and agencies — after considering all of the circumstances in the particular cases — have found the following types of conduct to be illegal sexual harassment:

(1) repeated sexual innuendo, obscene or off-color jokes, slurs, lewd remarks and language, and other offensive sexual comments;

(2) content in letters and notes, facsimiles, e-mail, graffiti that is of a sexual nature or sexually abusive;

(3) sexual propositions, insults, and threats;

(4) sexually-oriented demeaning names;

(5) persistent unwanted sexual or romantic overtures or attention;

(6) leering, whistling, or other sexually suggestive sounds or gestures;

(7) displaying pornographic pictures, calendars, cartoons, or other sexual material in the workplace;

(8) coerced or unwelcome touching, patting, brushing up against, pinching, kissing, stroking, massaging, squeezing, fondling, or tickling;

(9) subtle or overt pressure for sexual favors;

(10) coerced sexual intercourse (e.g., as a condition of employment or academic status). In an unanimous decision of the U.S. Supreme Court in April, 2001, a supervisor's isolated single crude remark was not enough to trigger a sexual harassment case under the federal civil rights law (Clark County School District v. Breeden). The justices stated that, based on the reasoning in previous cases, sexual harassment refers to a pattern of "severe or pervasive" abuse; the supervisor's offhand, one sex remark was not the type of behavior that supported a sexual harassment claim, though the employee might think it was unlawful harassment.

--> ARE THERE DIFFERENT TYPES OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT?...
This Question --> WHAT TYPES OF CONDUCT HAVE BEEN FOUND TO BE "SEXUAL HARASSME...
--> CAN ONE INCIDENT CONSTITUTE SEXUAL HARASSMENT?...
--> IS AN EMPLOYER LIABLE FOR HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT HARASSMENT?...
--> WHAT FACTORS DETERMINE WHETHER AN ENVIRONMENT IS "HOSTILE?"...
--> WHAT ARE SOME EXAMPLES OF "HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT HARASSMENT"?...

Click Here for More Q&As in Employment Labor Law / Sexual Harassment
Related Topics: | Firing | Hiring | Job Discrimination | Pensions Benefits | Sexual Harassment | Workers Comp |
For All Legal Topics, Click Here

http://employment-law.freeadvice.com/sexual_harassment/types_harassment.htm

[Redhead488]

113. He said on the street, not in the workplace

try again.

[Baltimoreboy]

116. That appears to be employment law

Guess what, what I do on the fucking street isn't part of my job. And if you don't work there and aren't a customer then you can't be harassed.

[slinkerwink]

118. What you do on the street can affect how I do my job

That one's covered in the law. Too few women actually pursue this part of law.

[Redhead488]

120. It's not coverd AT all

There is no LAW that prevents a man from leering at a woman on the street.

[Baltimoreboy]

123. If you are not doing business there

You can complain to my boss for my leering.

In most cases, my boss will take your complaint and, appropriately, laugh behind your paranoid back.

[slinkerwink]

the boss could still fire you

and I would be able to bring a lawsuit against you if you work in the same building that I do, even if I'm in a different office.

[Baltimoreboy]

131. I live in a state where the boss can fire me for breathing wrong

And if you pass me regularly AND complain sometime during the process, that would be harassment. But just walking down the street and never saying anything about the comments would not be.

[slinkerwink]

135. Plenty of women have said plenty about those unwanted sexual comments

and they're still ignored because they're just tits and ass, and men want the freedom to make those sexual comments.

[Baltimoreboy]

138. Then they can sue

Or file charges of harassment if they wish.

In the meantime, they stand little chance of ever winning anything if they complain how men LOOK at them.

[Redhead488]

132. Hard to prove that LOOKING

is harassment.

[redqueen]

166. I tell you what, you put signs on the ones we SHOULD worry about

that way GIRLS and women won't have to worry, k?

This is RIDICULOUS!

:puke:

[redqueen]

165. Why are you and others talking about something that's not the subject

of the thread?

Pretty weak strawman. It's sad ... no... it's Cheneying TRAGIC that Slinkerwink has had to explain this repeatedly.

:eyes:

[jpgray]

41. Well, how do you determine if a look is sexual harrassment? (nt)

[slinkerwink]

43. well, it's easy

I don't mind if a guy smiles and looks at me, but I do mind if a guy looks at me in such a way that it makes me uncomfortable where he licks his lips, leans back, and observes my ass walking away. That's what makes me uncomfortable, and also if I hear sexual comments aimed my way, it frightens me.

[Redhead488]

45. Licking one's

lips is not "looking." Observing your ass walking away is, and there is nothing wrong with that!

[slinkerwink]

47. you still don't get it....it's sexual harassment

and the woman does NOT want to be looked at that way, whether she wears a burqa or a tank top.

[Redhead488]

48. It doesn't matter what you WANT

A guy can LOOK all he wants, whether you WANT himn to or not. There is NOTHING wrong with looking. I don't want people to look at the big fat zit on my nose, but they are gonna. Nothing I can do about that.

[slinkerwink]

50. There's plenty we can do about that....it's called instilling RESPECT

It should matter what women like me want....the freedom not to be sexually harassed in the street.

[Redhead488]

53. Sorry

No matter how hard you try, men are going to look at attractive women and wonder how they'd look underneath them. NOTHING you can do will EVER change that. I agree that catcalls and rude gestures are beyond the pale, but looking is a fact of life.

[slinkerwink]

55. again, there's a difference between looking and leering

Most women do not want to be leered at if they're wearing light clothing like a halter top or a t-shirt. Do we have to wear burqas to prevent street sexual harassment?

[Redhead488]

57. I don't care what you wear

You pick. If you look hot, I'm still looking at you.

[slinkerwink]

59. If you look "hot"....

it's not even about looking hot, it's about being a woman wearing light summer clothing, and getting sexually harassed in the street for doing so.

[Redhead488]

73. You miss the point

I, for example, like slender women. If a heavy woman wearing a tnak passes by, I would not look. It's not what I prefer. If a 55 year old woman or a 10 year old girl walks by in a tank...again, I would not look. Doesn't do anything for me. Now, if a 22 year old babe walks by? I'm LOOKING. Not saying anything, not making gestures, but yes, I'm LOOKING.

[slinkerwink]

78. ..

I do not mind guys looking, but I'm not going to defend their right to leer at women or to make sexual comments just because the woman's wearing a tank top.

[Redhead488]

80. Neither am I

Comments are off base. Looking/leering? hard to say which is which. I don't want you making that call; therefore, all looking is acceptable.

[slinkerwink]

82. what? women aren't allowed to make a call about what constitutes

sexual harassment if it infringes on the man's freedom to "look?"

[Redhead488]

84. That's exactly RIGHT

You have no way of knowing if I am "looking" or "leering." That judgement call should not be left up to YOU to interpret what I was thinking.

[slinkerwink]

87. the judgement call should be left up to us because we are

on the receiving end of street sexual harassment, and because we've encountered sexism in many instances, so I'd say we're rather well qualified to make that decision.

Would you dare question a black man's judgement on what constitutes racism?

Would you dare question a gay person's judgement on what constitues homophobia?

[Redhead488]

93. YES, I would

I WILL question your "ability" to read my mind. I reserve the right to question anyone's view on what I am thinking.

You know what? If you are 5'7 135, and 36D wearing a tank top...I'm gonna LOOK! And I'm gonna enjoy ever freaking second of it! Just like the vast majority of men will.

[slinkerwink]

99. *shakes head* you don't know much about respect, do you?

A start in stopping sexism and misogyny in this country is to instill respect in men towards women. That really can't be accomplished if men continue to think of women as sexual objects in the street and sexually harass them, even if the woman's wearing baggy clothing.

[Baltimoreboy]

102. Women used to have this respect

In fact, they were put on pillars and worshipped. Of course, they also didn't have equal rights.

With equal rights, that obligation to treat women specially has, by and large, gone out the window.

[slinkerwink]

106. hahahaha!

Are you saying that if women want respect, they have to give up their rights? :wtf:

[Baltimoreboy]

110. Maybe that's true

If women are treated as equals, then they lose that special respect. I don't know if you've noticed, but men don't hold each other in particularly high regard either. We (straight guys that is) just don't leer at one another. We do bust on one another, say nasty things, etc.

[Redhead488]

105. Slinker

face facts...women ARE sexual objects to men. I'm talking straight men here. We want to have sex with WOMEN, not ourselves. It's a fact of life. Deal with it. No matter how much I may respect my boss for the brilliant analyst she is...if she's hot, I STILL wonder what she looks like naked and upside down. PERIOD.

[slinkerwink]

108. then you're really not thinking of your boss as a human being

if she's relegated to nothing more than tits and vagina.

[Baltimoreboy]

112. Women are not JUST tits and vagina

A pretty girl walks down the street and men leer. Another pretty girl walks down the street, but we know her and we really like her. Suddenly we want her a lot more than the first girl because she is MORE than just the biology.

But in your world, we wouldn't look at women as sex objects. And that will only happen if we all get neutered.

[Redhead488]

115. WHOA, where did I say that??

Plus, I'm an ass man, anyway.

[slinkerwink]

119. you said you were thinking about fucking me on all fours

and that's sexual harassment.

[Redhead488]

124. I DID NOT

I said we think about what you (generic women) look like on all fours. I said nothing about you in specific; especially about fucking you! I don't even know what you look like; and for shallow old me, it's ALL about the looks.

You seem to have a personal problem with men.

[slinkerwink]

130. look at post 95

[Redhead488]

137. I was referring to women

in the generic sense...sorry I was not more clear on that.

[Baltimoreboy]

125. LOL, that's a nutty comment

I ride the Metro sometimes into DC. I notice many pretty women there. Some I think about sexually. That is human nature not a violation of ANY law. You can't forbid horny men AND women from going out in public.

[Redhead488]

128. Hey, I do that too

on the DC metro. Even keep count of the "hot" ones I see.

[Baltimoreboy]

136. I also mentally rate them on a scale of one to 10

As do most men I know. So what. It helps pass the time. I also know women who do the exact same thing about men.

Are we going to be jailed now for thought crimes?

[Redhead488]

139. If Slinker has her way, we will.

I just grade on the Yes/No scale...count up the number of Yeses. Record was 24 on a trip from New Carrollton to Pentagon City.

[Baltimoreboy]

141. The Red Line is much better

Bethesda is filled with beautiful women. And Friendship Heights has American University. Dupont is also great.

[Redhead488]

143. Thanks for the tip

The orange line sucks most of the time.

[GreenArrow]

142. some women do

want to be looked at that way.

[Baltimoreboy]

145. Maybe they could wear buttons

That say "Leer at me."

[GreenArrow]

151. men are going to look

and some women definitley dress for attention. They may not want to be leered at, but they want to be noticed.

[jpgray]

51. Okay. Now how to solve the problem?

As you point out above, being a man this aspect is closed to me. I can feel discomfort or distaste from a look or comment, but never any persecution or fear. What should be done if a look has been determined to be sexual harrassment? Why do you suppose some men engage in such behavior when others do not? I don't know the answers to these questions.

[slinkerwink]

54. well

some men engage in that behavior because it gives them control over the woman, even if the woman's wearing baggy clothing, the men still have the ability to sexually harass a woman on the street. The men who do this like the power and the discomfort that they instill in women.

If a look has been determined to be sexual harassment, one could always try to find a cop in the area and register the complaint with the cop, or bring a lawsuit. However, such lawsuits are hard to do because most people think it's "natural" for men to sexually harass women on the street.

What can be done about this is to stop treating women like pieces of meat, and to instill respect in men towards women. To start thinking of women as intelligent human beings with feelings, not just tits, ass, and vagina.

[jpgray]

65. So it's really a societal problem, rather than one simply generated by men

If your contention is that some kinds of looks are sexual harrassment in the same way that phsyical and verbal harrassment are, then you'll find that many men have not been taught this and do not agree with it. While almost all will know catcalling and groping are wrong, almost none will make the same connection with types of looks. This moral edcuation is a societal one--at one time catcalls and physical groping were much more accepted among males than they are today. It's not that men became fundamentally different, it's simply that society shifted. I suppose my problem is seeing men as the problem when to me it's not clear that this is the case, since on a fundamental level men have stayed the same yet acceptable behavior has changed.

[slinkerwink]

67. I do see men as a part of the problem

because they are raised to think of women that way that women can be sexually accessible in a public space to catcalls and leers. It's this patriarchial society that instills this kind of thinking in men.

[jpgray]

70. But if society can change while the men do not

How is it that men are the problem? Acceptable behavior towards women has shifted dramatically, while biologically and fundamentally men are the same.

[slinkerwink]

74. hmm...can you extrapolate further?

[jpgray]

88. OK, let me try to explain what I mean

It seems to me that society is more the culprit than men in general, because when I observe behavior toward women changing, it seems that men do not fundamentally change. If the nature of men was the chief problem here, shouldn't it follow that when behavior toward women improves, the nature of men should have changed? I think it's rather that men remain fundamentally the same, and what impulses are acceptable to act on have changed.

For example, it used to be that groping a female coworker would cause no major stir. Now, however, such things are a much bigger deal, and men know they are wrong in a way they did not before. Now, does the man feel any less attracted to his coworkers now then before? Does he have any less of a sexual impulse? I would say he doesn't, but society has changed so he can no longer indulge that impulse as he did in the past. So the impulses of the man haven't changed, but the acceptable outlets for such impulses have changed. So it wasn't a change in the men that made the difference, because he still feels the same impulses. But there is a change in how he expresses those impulses--a change in society.

It's true that the actions of many men and women are what shape society, but I don't think either gender has changed on a fundamental level. So if we're getting closer to gender equality while neither gender has fundamentally changed, it must be that society is changing. If men aren't changing fundamentally yet behavior toward women has changed, then the fundamental nature of men can't be blamed for the behavior. Men in conjunction with society can be blamed, but men in general can't.

If that makes any sense. :)

edit: Changed some instances of 'men' to 'the nature of men'. Men operating within a flawed society I can see being the problem, but I don't believe the fundamental nature of men is the problem.

[slinkerwink]

92. that does make sense....

and I hope that someday that street sexual harassment will become just as unacceptable as office sexual harassment is today.

[jpgray]

117. You have your work cut out for you

Because I don't quite buy that all of what you describe is in the same category. :) But maybe I'll be judged to be an ignorant troglodyte decades from now, who knows?

[Donkeyboy75]

25. "You guys have brains...use them instead of your cocks."

Ummm, who is being sexist? Swings both ways, don'tcha know.

[Spentastic]

29. Would you agree

That the vast majority of men do not in fact engage in shouting, whistling and other such demonstrations?

Unfortunately for you, there is a biological imperative at work here. Men will look at attractive women not because their cocks tell them to, but because their brains demand they do. This line is telling:

"I can't quite believe
that my exposed back
is pure sex"

Well depending on the man you are and the situation, most things can be sexy. The reaction at such times is largely determined by your socialisation. Ill educated oiks will honk horns and shout. Others will catch a glimpse and get a thrill. The minority give the majority a bad nme.

The difference between an "ogle" and a "look" is often in the eye of the beholder. If you wear clothes that accentuate your sexuality you will be looked at more by men. Would you suggest that we are all blinded in order that you not be offended? Would you look at a good looking man wearing clothes that make him look good? Would you consider saying to a colleague "he looks good?" Women I believe also evaluate men. way. In fact they are capable of the various things that this poem complains about. Is that sexism too?

Of course the vast majority of your comments are fine. However, I believe by categorising a set of behaviours demonstrated by both sexes as "sexism" you harm your argument rather than help it.

[Redhead488]

30. If she's gonna flaunt it

I'm gonna look.

[slinkerwink]

36. What?! It's not about flaunting one's body....it's about wearing light

clothing in hot summer days. I do NOT want to be sexually harassed if I wear a tank top or a halter top outside.

[Redhead488]

39. And if you do wear

a tank or halter and you look good in it, I'm gonna LOOK. Sorry, I am gonna look. If you look like crap, then you have no worry.

[slinkerwink]

34. I can't believe what you're saying....

Look, your argument that if I or a girl wears a halter top, then we "deserve" all those looks, rude calls, and sexual harassment on the street. That's very seriously fucked up. I don't care if it's "biologically imperative" and our being human gives us an ethical framework to rise above our "base" natures. It's called being intelligent, and actually treating women with respect.

[Redhead488]

37. You are right

You do NOT deserve the rude catcalls and comments.

[Cats Against Frist]

60. Putting the words into the mouths of your respondees

I hate posts like that -- that make an argument, and argue with possible responses with no facts or real argument, just because you don't like the answer.

I am a feminist, and I think that YES, males should not leer at women, and YES, I think that women who dress provocatively are asking for it.

It's not a tired excuse. The only reasons that one would physically need to be half-clothed in public are 1. If it's really, really hot -- and it is arguable that a loose white T-shirt might keep you cooler than a tank top, if the sun is out. 2. Fashion and 3. Because you're trying to look "sexy."

The two examples you gave were "a low-cut cleavage" shirt. I'd appreciate it if you would explain the choices you made -- especially since you're so enraged that males are leering at you -- to put on a shirt that shows part of your tits? If the problem was that bad, why don't you just dress accordingly? Are you saying you have a right to wear clothes pushed on you by designers that are actively trying to brainwash you into considering fashion as a part of your life -- which is a constructed thing that typically is rooted in vanity and money? You do realize that there's no basis for you "feeling good" in provocative clothing -- that you're really dressing up as a construct that males made up, anyway?

If you feel so uncomfortable, and yet you can't bring yourself to stop wearing clothes that show off your tits -- you have bigger problems, my friend, than the men around you.

I don't so much go for the third-wave feminism bullshit about you can dress like a slut, but no man should look at you. You do realize that your tight shirt/low-rise jeans/short skirt model was invented by men, for men, and you're just playing the part of their construct.

Think about it for like ten seconds. And the above is not a poem. It's an essay with pretend line breaks.

[slinkerwink]

63. it's not about showing off my tits....it's about wearing light clothing

because I'm hot in the summer.

With your line of argument that women who dress provacatively by wearing a tank top or a halter top are "asking for it," does that mean they deserve to be raped too?

[Redhead488]

68. She didn't say that!

You know something...you need to deal with facts as they exist, not as you want them to be. Men (straight men), no matter how "enlightened," are going to look at women and want to fuck them. Period. That's the way human nature works. The more attractive the women is to us, the more we are gonna wanna fuck her. I don't care how smart she is (and to me that is VERY attractive) or how talented she is, if she meets our individual definition of "attractive," we are going to, at some time in our private thoughts, imagine her on all fours in front of us. Sorry, Baby, that's the way of the world. You may wish it were not so, but that's the way it is

[Cats Against Frist]

86. No one "deserves" to be raped

And you're ignoring the crux of my argument. The examples that you gave were "low-cleavage" and "tight shirt."

You can argue all you like, but three inches added onto a pair of shorts or a loose top, as opposed to a tight top, aren't going to make you very much hotter. In fact, again -- when you're in the sun or there is dry heat, MORE light clothing such as a very light linen dress or something, should keep you cooler than a tank top and shorts. If it's very humid, that's another story, altogether, however.

I believe that people can wear whatever they want. I was just noting the irony of someone who is dissing men, while she simultaneously dresses up as the construct that THEY created. That's the real problem -- womens' desire to bend over backwards to look like the male-created construct of femininity.

I'm not saying the girl deserves to be raped -- but she's playing the game, just as much as the male who stares at her.

[slinkerwink]

91. I hate dresses

Your comments justifying street sexual harassment is ludicrous as well as ignorant of the reality women face.

We do not want to be told what to wear to prevent street sexual harassment. The crux of responsibility lies with men in not sexually harassing women. It's about respect.

It doesn't matter if I'm wearing a tank top, I deserve respect.

Yes, your line of argument does give way to the "she deserves to be raped" argument.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slinkerwink]

103. now that's sexual harassment

:eyes:

[Redhead488]

109. Oh, it is NOT

It's what guys THINK about! Good God! Are you really that naive??

[slinkerwink]

121. it may be what they think about, and it doesn't warrant a comment

to a woman on the street about what you think of her.

[Redhead488]

127. I have stated REPEATEDLY

that making those kinds of comments is beyond the pale; have I not?

[Baltimoreboy]

129. They still have a right to make stupid comments

In Frederick, a more rural city north of here, teens drive up and down the strip on weekend nights shouting out, "Hey baby." That is part of the mating ritual there. Women can ignore it, embrace it or tell the men to fuck off.

[slinkerwink]

133. that's sexual harassment

no way around it.

[Baltimoreboy]

140. LOL, what nation do you live in?

Sure can't be the U.S. because that is not illegal. It's just moronic.

[GreenArrow]

147. it's a mating call

nothing more basic than that. It might be crude and tactless, but it is coming from a very deep and primitive place.

[Cats Against Frist]

114. God Damn it will you listen to yourself?

I'm not advocating rape against women -- I even stated that it's not polite to stare. Just take the men out of the equation for a minute. Most of women's "fashion" is not about making the body cool -- it's about conforming to a male construct of women. Please read some real feminist theory, and not this pop third-wave bullshit. The female psyche is already the "zero" to man's "one," so to speak -- so the last thing that women should be doing is frittering away their lives and their money on buying male-constructed clothing, primping and shaving and powdering and whatever and trying to look good for men.

I'm going to go further and say that the woman is WORSE than the man for participating in this. Far worse. This does not mean she should be raped. It means she should get a good talking to by a woman that sees that she's nothing more than a the constructed female that the male wants her to be.

That's what I'm telling you. That's ALL I'm telling you. Yes, if you do choose to wear skimpy clothes, you should not be treated like a sex object. I'm going beyond that to say I don't care how "fucking free" you want to feel -- I'm telling you that "feminine" clothes are nothing but a construct of males, by males and for males.

[slinkerwink]

122. my goodness.....you think tank tops are feminine clothes?

and t-shirts too? Women still get sexually harassed wearing them.

[Cats Against Frist]

134. That was not the original example that you gave

You specifically said "cleavage" and "tight." And anyone, male or female, in a tank top is perfectly reserving their right to be cool, and everyone else is reserving their right to look at them. You're right -- harassment is wrong -- on any level, for anything, not just women, not just men and not just about clothes.

We agree there. Beyond that, however, I am angered by the pop Britney Spears feminism, up out of which this argument usually springs. It completely ignores the fact that the women are participants in their own dehumanization, perpetuating the cycle, even as they pretend to be oh-so-against it.

[slinkerwink]

66. have you noticed it's only women that wear "provocative" clothing

and it's never men that wear provocative clothing? It doesn't matter if a man's wearing a tank top, but it matters if a woman's wearing a tank top and that's somehow provocative.

[Redhead488]

69. I'm sure that many gay men

find other men wearing tank tops provocative; some women do too. BTW, wonder why some men wear tank and tight tops? To be PROVOCATIVE!

[slinkerwink]

72. most men don't wear tank tops to be provocative....they wear

them to be cool. That's the reason most women wear tank tops.

[Redhead488]

76. Many men wear tanks to attract the opposite sex

period. They could be just as cool in a t-shirt. They wear them because the think they look "hot" in them.

[slinkerwink]

79. not really.....

many men aren't attractive and still wear tank tops so they can be cool. The same goes for women, but they still face street harassment just because they're wearing a tank top.

[matcom]

90. so, you are a Man TOO and you know why WE wear tanktops?

um ok :eyes:

[AngryAmish]

148. HA

[porphyrian]

61. Don't Oversteer

Not everyone who looks at you in public is invading your privacy, and not everyone who comments on your appearance is molesting you. You have every right to look however you want within the law in public areas, but other people in public areas also have the right to let you know what they think about it. No one has the right to physically molest you or verbally threaten you, but short of that, we're all protected under the same amendment, and you can't make the case that your right to appear as you like is more important than their right to let you know what they think about it.

[drdigi420]

126. Funny, but when I walk down the street in revealing clothes,

I get a lot of catcalls too.

But I guess it doesn't count because I'm a guy.

[Tsiyu]

144. Interesting...

So , men are truly no more than gelatinous masses of neurons? Unable to control their eyeballs or their own thoughts? Honey, please.

I am so tired of the "biology made me do it" argument. If men are so lacking in depth of thought, so devoid of any human capacity to think about the consequences of their actions, they should all be locked up. Period. They can't control themselves, and this is by their own admission.

I for one have more faith in men than that, and I'm not buying the "if I see ya i wanna fuck you" bullshit. Can I put all of the men who say that in a room with a bunch of horny gay men and then have them tell me whether or not there is a difference between "ogling" and "looking?"

The facts are clear: Rape is one crime on the rise in many places. Women are victimized often and well. i could tell you horror stories, especially about work-related sexual harrassment. I deal with it, and I realize that American men are so obsessed with porn and objectifying women that things probably will never change. ( That's why I only date non- American men).
As a hetero female, my natural tendency is to look at attractive men. I suppose I could mentally envision them naked ( in the boardroom, on the street, wherever.) I know some women who do ( envision men naked and sweaty when they meet them) but I choose to look at humans as humans, not some "thing" I can possibly consume. Notice I said "choose." I choose to not objectify men. A choice.

Men have this choice as well. It isn't biology that causes some men to demean women, but merely those males' personal mental weaknesses.

[Redhead488]

146. Good for you.

More proof that men and women think differently.

[slinkerwink]

149. bravo! you made my point better than I could

[Baltimoreboy]

150. So sue us, we are human

And until we meet women, they remain two dimensional. Once we meet them, our views change about them. Until that time, they might as well be a photo in a magazine.

As for how we react to gay men, I used to work near Dupont which is heavily gay. Even I, no great American hottie, was ogled on a regular basis. I also got better service in restaurants and stores because of this.

Guess what, it didn't bother me. I'm secure enough in my own sexual identity that I'm not freaked out at a guy or girl ogling me. Some people here ought to try it.

[jpgray]

152. 'That's why I only date non- American men'

Not sure why, but that struck me as absolutely hilarious.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Redhead488]

153. Good thing you date only non-American men

I mean there is ZERO pron in Europe and we all know how "equally" women are treated in the Middle East and Africa. Oh, and how about the way that men in South and Central America objectify women (especially blondes). I don't suppose they still read those porno comics openly on the Tokyo metro anymore, do they?

Yep, it's only those BAD, unenlightened American men who look and leer at women.

"( That's why I only date non- American men)." What a stupid comment.

[Tsiyu]

155. Sorry if you're out

Of course porn is rampant everywhere. Of course women are treated worse in other countries. But that still doesn't let you American men off the hook. One admits he views women as "two-dimensional" ( Okay, maybe the porn mag chick never menstruates or sweats but really, dude, you are the problem...)
As I said, men and women can CHOOSE how to think and act. I know many sexually active women who choose to view men as flesh to consume and no more. Their boss, their best friend's husband, whoever. This is not a male-only way to view other humans. This is a CHOICE you make in your own pointy head, as to how you will treat your fellow humans and how you will handle your own sexuality and sexual thinking. I don't believe you "think differently." I believe you CHOOSE to think differently.
The last two guys i dated were from the UK and Peru. They didn't need a porn flick to tell them how to "do it." They didn't have the American male tendency to treat women as accessories or consumable things. And they admired my strength and my mind as much as the rest of me. If American men can't get there, why should i want to waste my time with any of you?

[Baltimoreboy]

156. Two dimensions

I view everyone I don't know as two dimensions until I meet them or learn something about them. Until then, they are pretty much a bag of bones. Since I am straight, I don't pay ANY attention to guys until I have a reason to do so.

Women are far from accessories. They should be partners and friends. However, that doesn't mean we won't ogle women when our significant others are not around.

It's not whether you ogle, it's whether you do something about it.

And blast American men all you wish. We could run a similar thread about women who want to be treated as equals but still expect men to pay for dates, open doors, drive, ask women out first, etc. Or the many other stereotypical flaws in women.

Face it, we are all human. We ALL have flaws. The sooner we accept that among each other the better.

[Baltimoreboy]

157. Two dimensions

I view everyone I don't know as two dimensions until I meet them or learn something about them. Until then, they are pretty much a bag of bones. Since I am straight, I don't pay ANY attention to guys until I have a reason to do so.

Women are far from accessories. They should be partners and friends. However, that doesn't mean we won't ogle women when our significant others are not around.

It's not whether you ogle, it's whether you do something about it.

And blast American men all you wish. We could run a similar thread about women who want to be treated as equals but still expect men to pay for dates, open doors, drive, ask women out first, etc. Or the many other stereotypical flaws in women.

Face it, we are all human. We ALL have flaws. The sooner we accept that among each other the better.

[jpgray]

158. Isn't there some irony in your dismissing American men as porn freaks?

Aren't you upset with men who dismiss women as two-dimensional sex objects? I don't know what kind of men you hang out with here, but there is more to what makes up a person than the country he/she lives in, just as you would argue there is more to a woman than the 2-d appraisal some men make of her. I find it odd that you would make a shallow prejudgment while condemning others for doing the same.

[Redhead488]

159. Don't stop her

she's on a hypocrtical roll.

[Tsiyu]

160. Statistics...

Hypocritical roll, eh? Because i have more faith in males than they have in themselves? Because I've "accused" you of having a brain and the capacity to use it wisely and to think about the consequences of your actions? How have I demeaned a man with that idea? By denying that you are truly a higher order creature, you demean yourself.

As for faults, I have more than anybody i know probably because i try to look at my own faults more than i look at others' faults. I'm the only person I can fix. But when something is wrong i will say it's wrong.

You say you could bring up women. I brought up women. The gals i know who objectify men get on my last nerve. They are obsessed with their sexuality and that of men. As I said, this is not a male-only prerogative.

Statistically speaking , I wouldn't try to run across a crowded freeway. Chances are i'd get squished by a semi. Or a Lexus. But I can walk across my own road because hardly anyone uses it. Statistically, the men i've met in America get their sex tips from cum flicks ( they actually think a woman would enjoy getting gang-raped by ten men. Okay, physically guys, this would not be pleasant, and if you ask the porn starlettes, they will tell you they aren't really enjoying those scenes - do some research if you think I'm bullshitting) but the men I've met from other countries don't need to watch a flick to figure out how to please a woman. It's only statistics, guys, that lead me to date men from other countries exclusively. I dated plenty of American men ( and married a few, BTW) before I came to this decision. I'm sure there are some great American men out there. Statistically speaking, I haven't a clue where, though.

[Moderator]

168. Locking......

This thread is not leading to civil discourse.




DU Moderator