Studies link Marijuana to Schizophrenia.

[mzmolly]

In a new study that was published in the American Journal of Psychiatry this week (April 14, 2004) - it was again confirmed (as already confirmed in over 30 other studies) that Cannabis/Marijuana use is closely associated with early development of schizophrenia.

The research states that "New research reveals that cannabis use is strongly associated with early onset of symptoms in men with schizophrenia.

The authors say their results are significant as early onset schizophrenia carries a particularly poor prognosis.

The study examined the independent associations between gender and cannabis use and age of onset of schizophrenia."

Much more here:

http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevent2.htm

[Marnieworld]

It's a chicken and the egg scenario though

Perhaps they are self-medicating the early onset of schizophrenia with marijuana. Marijuana doesn't necessarily cause it. It just may be a common coping choice for these poor young men.

[mzmolly]

4. I disagree. I've seen the effects of marijuana first hand with a family

member who has been diagnosed.

However, it's worth noting that the research indicates that both environmental and genetic factors play a role. So, if one has a history of this in their family, it may be of greater consideration.

[K-W]

6. How can you disagree?

What did you see that showed causation and not just correlation?

[mzmolly]

9. I saw a person who didn't halucinate and hear voices, halucinate and hear

voices after starting to use marijuana. I saw that same person continue usage over 20 years, and become hospitalized on numerous occassions. I saw this person develop friends with others in a same or similar situation.

This person, was told 5 years ago that if she wanted to stay out of the "bin" she should stop using MJ. So far so good, with the help of meds.

[K-W]

13. With due respect, that doesnt prove anything.

As the poster before you explained, it could very well be that the condition causes people to self medicate before anyone is aware of the condition yet.

You are right in that Marijuana causes symptoms in people with the condition, but your experience does not prove that it causes the condition, simply that is exacerbates the symptoms.

[mzmolly]

38. Read the studies. I am convinced as I've seen it first hand.

:hi:

I don't feel the need to prove anything to you however, make up your own mind on the subject.

[K-W]

43. Believe what you want, but pls back up things you post

Im sorry but people who make up their minds on things based on observing one loved one are drawing dangerous conclusions. Your experience im sure was tragic, but it doesnt prove what you are claiming here. Meanwhile the war on drugs is killing people and ruining peoples lives and false conclusions about the risks of pot use only serve to make that worse.

[mzmolly]

48. I don't have an agenda here, and this is not MY claim. I simply agree

with the many claims made by mental health scientists and professionals:

Here are more articles from the website that bolster the case:

http://www.schizophrenia.com/newsletter/news02/schizup.oct2.html#nosmoke

and more:

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993098

http://www.veritasmedicine.com/archives.cfm?did=29&mode=2&item_id=2609&cid=111132

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/327/7423/1070-c


A new study recently published in the journal Biological Psychiatry, studying the Israeli draft board records demonstrated that young men between the ages of 16 and 17 who abuse drugs are twice as likely to develop schizophrenia as those men who do not abuse drugs. This increased risk does not exist for other, nonpsychotic, mental illnesses. Furthermore, the authors of the study state that their data did not support the concept that vulnerable individuals were self-medicating.

Believe it or not, I don't have an agenda here. It took me years to realize what happened to my relative. But, there is no doubt in my mind that marijuana (for whatever reason) perhaps it's a common pesticide used on the plant??? caused/contributed to the illness in said rele.

[K-W]

56. erm

Did you just site a source that lumped all drugs into the same catagory?

edited for my temper

[mzmolly]

60. Acutally if you read the website, they note meth and other drugs as well

so 'c-mon' yourself.

I am tiring of your condescending dismissive attitude. Make up your own mind on the subject, I don't feel the need to PROVE anything to you, personally.

Cheers.

[K-W]

65. your thread title is misleading

you are citing bad sources

People are using the link to scizephrenia to smear drug use and reinforce the war on drugs.

[mzmolly]

68. Puleeze. This source is not "bad"

there is nothing alarmist about it. If you start to hear voices, stop smoking reefer. If you have a family member who is schizo, be mindful of the potential effects of pot etc... I don't consider that over reacting.

Now, show me the exact data from the site you take issue with.

Also, how would you prefer me to describe the thread?

[TeacherCreature]

87. Smear drug use?

Drug use has smeared itself for the last 40 years. Most of us used drugs ourselves at some point. I don't know a more effective smear against drug use than being around people who are high.

[TeacherCreature]

83. What are you talking about?

Read the studies. Mzmolly is not making this stuff up. If you disagree with the scientists then argue with them. MMolly documented her point of view. Where the hell is your documentation?

[TeacherCreature]

81. I've seen it first hand too, MMolly

You just can't separate some people of their convictions that drug use is harmless.

[mzmolly]

93. Thanks "Teach"

:hi:

[H2O Man]

85. My two cents:

I worked for decades as a psychiatric social worker, including extensive work with the MICA clients. MICA is basically "mentally ill, chemical abusers." Any number of substances, including pot, are often used & abused by people with the axis 1 disorders (just like the rest of the population). The results with people with axis 1 disorders tends to be very different, however, than the general population.

Probably people know that the axis 1 disorders are the bipolar (or affective) and the schizophrenic disorders. People with these have psychotic episodes that can be set off by any number of genetic/environmental causes.

These disorders often begin to be seen in the late teens, which fits pretty well with when American kids are exposed to many things, including pot. These kids' brains will process the THC in pot a bit differently. In more cases than not, kids with the likelihood of having moderate to severe psychotic disorders will have the episodes triggered by pot.

There are a number of people who actually remain stable through the use of marijuana. Small in the % of those who deal with psychotic disorders. Also, they tend to smoke the lower-grade, leafy pot, as opposed to the stronger buds.

People with severe and persistent mental illnesses rarely do well with pot. It just ain't meant to be. They will have an increase in frequency and duration of psychiatric hospitalizations, that will decrease when smoking pot stops, and medications are taken as prescribed.

This does not mean that pot is bad, or causes mental illness. A person with no genetic risks for schizophrenia will not become schizophrenic from smoking pot. A person with some mild symptoms of anxiety may find pot makes them anxious in public places. But for a % of people, with axis 1 disorders, it's good to avoid pot.

[mzmolly]

94. Thanks for your *professional and reasoned* input H20....

:hi:

Feel free to correct any mis-information you see on my part or others here. ;)

[H2O Man]

96. Thank you....

for putting a series discussion on the table. I will say that I am very impressed with much of the thoughtful reasoning found in a number of the comments on here. We need to think in terms of safe and not safe, rather than good and bad. If a person has diabetes, we all know that a safe diet is a goal. But that doesn't imply others must avoid those same unsafe foods.

I would also say that for people who have not had the experience of having someone in the family suffer from, say, schizophrenia, and dealt with the issues involved in non-compliance with meds, substance abuse, and all the suffering that causes a family system ....they are lucky. Because it's hard. It hurts. And those family members who make up the "support system" are going to discuss the effects of pot in a different context than those people who may use it casually.

I'm glad your brought this topic to DU today.

[mzmolly]

103. Yer a peach as usual.

:hug:

[DBoon]

98. So pot doesn't cause mental illness

But it can make pre-existing mental illness worse?

And as a sociological coincidence, the age at which these mental disorders appear (late teens) is about the age that teens are exposed to marijuana.

[mzmolly]

104. I think it's considered a *contributing* factor.

But not a *cause* perse?

I'll let the experts handle this question however. ;)

[H2O Man]

117. Now this is a great discussion...

and is really an example of the good things that DU represents. I have to start by noting your phrase "sociological coincidence." I like that! But I have to say that it's more of a cultural statistical norm .... does that make sense? Because sociology is the study of patterns .... and it really isn't a coincidence that teens smoke pot.... it's become a norm. I'm not commenting on if there is a good or bad value judgement to it. But for a variety of reasons, a significant % of teens, in our culture, are going to try pot. Many will smoke it occassionally; many will smoke it frequently.

Now, your question, can it make a pre-existing mental illness worse is hitting the nail on the head. If I were supervising you in a graduate study program, you'd get an "A" for this week .... because all of the objective studies come down to just that.

There are people who might have a tendency towards an axis 1 illness, but who would have gone through life with that tendency remaining dormant, without certain events creating a stress that brings that illness to the forefront on their being. There are other factors that can play a role: the death of a parent; the break-up of a romantic relationship, especially for boys; and a wide range of other events. They trigger the illness.

In every case, people should be able to look objectively at their own family history, to determine things such as risk for addiction, and risk for triggering a mental illness, when considering the use of any substance. For example, if you belong to certain ethnic groups such as Native American or Irish, there is an automatic increase in risk factors. These are both genetic and environmental.

A brief explanation: in a good many traditional Italian families, a glass of wine is a part of the evening meal. Excessive drinking is not approved of. Hence, lower risk. Compare that to a Native American family, where traditional family systems have been largely destroyed by the outside cultural oppression. Hence, drinking has been excessive for generations. Risk factors are high.

Likewise, if there is no significant history of axis 1 illness in a family, and a teen experiments with pot, or even uses too much for an extended period, the risks are significantly different than if there is a high intergenerational frequency of schizophrenia.

I have worked with dozens of people, both bipolar and schizophrenic, who never maintained stability so long as alcohol and/or pot were part of their life. Even including infrequent use. Once they stopped, they never had serious problems with symptoms, and hence, stayed out of the hospital.

Again, I've worked with hundreds of families. It is so hard on parents, siblings, and children, to have to deal with episodes of psychotic behaviors, especially involving hospitalization. There are known ways to avoid the frequency of these episodes.

It is not an attack on pot, or a reason to out-law it, or to punish people who use it. It's a plant. But it is important to remember that for a percentage of the population, it creates serious problems.

[DBoon]

120. By coincidence I meant

Heaviest pot smoking occurs in an age range where schizophrenia typically starts - at least for men (I understand it hits women later in life). If schizophrenia manifested itself at age 12 or at age 30, then we would not make a connection with marijuana. Pot smoking is something older teenagers and young adults do.

And I think contributing factor where a pre-disposition exists, because if marijuana actually CAUSED these disorders, we'd see a huge increase in the overall rate. We don't - what we see is an onset of symptoms correlated with drug use.

Last question - isn't schizophrenia associated with cigarette smoking, and isn't it thought this is the case because nicotine relieves some of the symptoms (self medicating)?

[mzmolly]

124. I'll let H20 address your questions but

Last question - isn't schizophrenia associated with cigarette smoking, and isn't it thought this is the case because nicotine relieves some of the symptoms (self medicating)?

I have heard that schizophrenics have a hard time quitting smoking because it brings them relief. But, smoking doesn't appear to exaserbate the symptoms of the illness.

The rele I mention smokes like a chimney, but does fine so long as it's not a joint. ;)

Again, as to the remainder of your questions, I'll defer to the expert.

[H2O Man]

134. Cigarettes, cigars, & pipes:

There is strong evidence that nicotine causes a brief relief from many of the uncomfortable symptoms of some psychotic disorders. These are generally the schizophrenic disorders. The how and why are fascinating, and on-going studies of brain chemistry indicate that even some of the stronger symptoms are decreased markedly by a cigarette.

Many people are aware of how people battling addiction often icrease their consumption of coffee, and smoke more than the average person. And, as bad as cigarettes are, the coffee and cigarette are stimulating those naturally-formed chemicals in the brain that make us feel good. Addiction (as well as chronic pain) greatly reduces the brain's ability to produce those chemicals. By increasing it with coffee and cigarettes, the person battling the demons of addiction will hopefully make it through the year needed for the brain to get back on track. (Chronic pain has long-term problems with the pleasure centers in the brain. Another serious topic.)

The psychotic person is different, however. The nicotine seems to stop the symptom from "flashing" through the brain. What is important to keep in mind is that this shows different people have different reactions to various substances. Coffee, tobacco, and pot are all organic compounds, and the human animal has a far closer relationship to the environment -- including plants -- than modern society seems to recognize. Moderation is a good idea .... there are plenty of herb teas that are healthy in small doses, but toxic in large amounts.

[mzmolly]

122. Excellent information.

Thank you again. :hi:

There are people who might have a tendency towards an axis 1 illness, but who would have gone through life with that tendency remaining dormant, without certain events creating a stress that brings that illness to the forefront on their being. There are other factors that can play a role: the death of a parent; the break-up of a romantic relationship, especially for boys; and a wide range of other events. They trigger the illness.

Articulated very well, love that explaination.

In every case, people should be able to look objectively at their own family history, to determine things such as risk for addiction, and risk for triggering a mental illness, when considering the use of any substance. For example, if you belong to certain ethnic groups such as Native American or Irish, there is an automatic increase in risk factors. These are both genetic and environmental.

Very interesting to consider it in this manner. I happen to be quite Irish, and my rele with the schizoaffective disorder is as well. I hadn't even considered the "Irish" factor in this.

Thanks again for your input.

[Warpy]

19. Exactly, that was my thought

Schizophrenia is known to have a genetic component, and I thought all this rubbish about reefer madness had been lain to rest in the late 1970s. Even acid didn't cause schizophrenia, although it was determined to hasten the inevitable.

My extended family are bipolars who self medicate with alcohol. That some people experiencing the early, frightening symptoms of schizophrenia would self medicate with pot or other sedative drugs makes a huge amount of sense.

[TeacherCreature]

79. Did you read the scientific studies?

That is not what they are saying.

[tridim]

1. In other words, Marijuana is still completely safe

unless you already have schizophrenia. Well duh..

[nightperson]

114. Nothing in the world is completely safe!

But, otherwise Post #1 nailed it. End of story.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. I thought studies involving marijuana were banned

which is one reason people can't really know the effects of marijuana use. Besides, I know a ton of folks who have smoked since the 60s, and so far haven't found any schizos. Only ones I've found that are going round the looney bend around here are right wingers who have never indulged. (BTW, I've never tried marijuana or any other illegal drug, so one can't say I'm prejudiced because of my personal habits)

[mzmolly]

5. I know more then one "schizo" who have been effected by mari-j usage.

:shrug:

[indigobusiness]

39. more 'than'...not more 'then'...

but don't mind m, I am certifiably schizophrenic.

I need a smoke.

[mzmolly]

49. Thanks, I always get confused. Could be all that second hand pot smoke?

:P

[indigobusiness]

53. Second hand...first hand...it's all hand...

...just don't lick it.




you're more than welcome.

cheers...

[AlecBGreen]

3. I dont get it

does :smoke: make you go :crazy: or does being :crazy: make you want to :smoke: ? :shrug:

[mzmolly]

7. Sounds like both actually.

:hi:

But one needs the genetic factors as well.

[Uben]

8. OMG!

They're trying to get me! I've seen em watching me! At night, they try to break into my house. I've heard them shaking the doors. But if they come in, they'll get theirs. I sit up with my shotgun all night just in case. And the police are in with them. Every time I call them, they say I'm crazy, but they aren't the ones they want, so they don't know. I've gotta go set some more traps, and when I catch one of em, I'll take a picture, so everyone will see I'm not schitzoid!

LOL!


Paranoia will destroy ya!

[TeacherCreature]

89. If you had a schizophrenic sibling, you would know you post is not funny.

But thanks for the unpleasant memories.

[Cyrano]

10. Back when I had my first hit of a joint, I had an uncontollable urge to

screw a turtle.

[mzmolly]

12. For some people, this isn't "funny"

:hi:

[Cyrano]

15. Lighten up mzmolly

I and my friends smoked it throughout the 70's and no one that I know has shown signs of anything.

Yes, schizophrenia is terrible. But don't blame it on marijuana. I have one friend who can't even remember the seventies because he was stoned for 10 years. Today, he writes college text books and is a millionaire. And I can relate similar stories.

It's way past time our society got past the "reefer madness" bullshit that our government and right wing groups have been pedaling to us for more than half a century.

I don't know what your situation (or that of a loved one) is. But, please, don't blame it on marijuana.

[SemperEadem]

42. actually, back in the early 20th century

the liquor industry is the entity that lobbied hard for the criminalization and demonization of marijuana. They didn't want anything cutting into their profits.

[mzmolly]

44. I don't *blame* anything. People have a choice. But I know for a FACT

that marijuana effected my relative. No doubt about it.

I'm light.

I've smoked myself, I'm not schizophrenic for the record. ;)

But, I suggest we all keep an open mind.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/newsletter/news02/schizup.oct2.html#nosmoke

Why does cannabis exacerbate psychosis? In schizophrenia, the hallucinations result from an excess of a brain chemical called dopamine. All the drugs that cause psychosis - amphetamines, cocaine and cannabis - increase the release of dopamine in the brain. In this way, they are distinct from illicit drugs such as heroin or morphine, which do not make psychosis worse.

The distraught parents of a young man diagnosed with schizophrenia tell me that their son was a very bright child with no obvious psychological problems. Then, in his mid-teens, his school grades deteriorated and he seemed to have trouble thinking clearly. He complained that people were talking about him behind his back.

After years of increasingly bizarre behaviour, he dropped out of school, job and university, and was finally admitted to a psychiatric unit, overwhelmed by paranoid fears and persecution by voices. The parents tell me that, at some point during this downward spiral, they realised their son was dependent on cannabis. The National Schizophrenia Fellowship (Rethink) is full of parents who see cannabis as the cause of their son's or, less commonly, daughter's madness.

Psychiatrists began to wonder if cannabis could actually cause psychosis as well as make established psychosis worse. A famous study interviewed 50,000 conscripts into the Swedish Army about their drug consumption and followed them up. Those who were heavy consumers of cannabis at 18 were six times more likely to be diagnosed with schizophrenia over the next 15 years than those did not take it.

FWIW, the person I know smoked daily, and often. This person is suddenly *OK* (with the help of meds) after 5 years of abstaining and about 25 years in and out of institutions.

Also, I do know several people who smoke as much who are fine. As I said, it appears genetic as well as environmental.

[TeacherCreature]

91. Her response to you was not heavy.

Why would she need to lighten up. And please spare us all the references to refer maddness, that ridiculous bit if defensiveness went out with "goofing" on people in the 70s. Lots of people have lived through the same drug experiences that you have and come to very different conclusions.

Read the studies they are saying that early onset of the desease can be caused by Pot use. The reason that early onset is a problem is because the desease can be much harder to fight. There are three categories of schizophrenics.

1) those who will never be under controll and will spend the rest of their lives mostly in mental institutions or half way houses.

2)Those who will be partially controlled by medication and will at times live independently.

3 Those who will live almost totally normal lives because of medication.

Early onset gives you a much higher chance of being in the first group.

[mzmolly]

11. More links here:

http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevent2.htm#street

Note there are many factors that can play a role. Living in the city vs. the country for one?

It's very interesting to view the impact of the environment on this disorder.

[1monster]

14. What do they mean by "early onset" though? It is my understanding that

people with Schizophrenia begin to have symptoms somewhere around the onset or middle of puberty and almost always by the end of adolescence.

[K-W]

16. it seems to trigger symptoms early in people already prone

to the condition.

[vivalarev]

17. BULLSHIT!!!!!

i still find it funny that these reports keep on trying to link some kind of health effect to marijuana in order to justify the ridiculous amounts of money that the governement spends on the so called war on drugs....marijuana has never, and will never, kill any one. the worst effect it has on anybody is weight gain from the munchies.

[mzmolly]

21. Actually the website I mention has much research and marijuana is

ONE of many factors mentioned.

As I said, I've seen it first hand, I don't believe it's bullshit for a minute.

I am actually for legalization, but one should consider the impact it MAY have on mental health.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevent2.htm#street

Also get this:

7. Avoiding Childhood Exposure to Cats with the the T. Gondi virus may reduce schizophrenia risk.

Recent epidemiologic studies indicate that infectious agents may contribute to some cases of schizophrenia. In animals, infections with Toxoplasma gondii can alter behavior and neurotransmitter function. In humans, acute infection with the cat virus "T. gondii" can produce psychotic symptoms similar to those displayed by persons with schizophrenia. Two other studies found that exposure to cats in childhood was a risk factor for the development of schizophrenia. It seems from the research that this is a relatively low risk factor in schizophrenia - compared to the aforementioned risk factors.

CATS?

The website is quite comprehensive, I suggest you really poke around before you dismiss the possibility.

[K-W]

23. What is your point?

There is no scientific proof that otherwise healthy people who smoke will get schizophrenia. Are you claiming that there is?

[mzmolly]

50. HUH? Why the vitriol?

:eyes:

The claim is that for some people marijuana usage can be the difference between sanity and insanity.

As most research indicates one requires a genetic factor as well. Why is this so threatening to you? I fully support your right to smoke the shit if you like.

[K-W]

57. The drug war kills people.

And you are spreading propaganda for it unwittingly. There is no scientific proof of your claim. There is no reason to think that pot can make an otherwise healthy person crazy. Please stop spreading this.

[mzmolly]

64. Drugs also kill people.

What I posted is not propaganda, it's published science, feel free to come to your own conclusion. But, don't try to squash mine because I don't happen to agree with YOU. As I said the website is full of research on schizophrenia, not POT.

You keep qualifying by saying There is no reason to think that pot can make an otherwise healthy person crazy...

Funny thing is we don't know who is "otherwise healthy" and who is not in every case do we? Howver, if you took time to read the links, you'll note that abstaining can be helpful even after the fact.

[K-W]

67. Yes some of it is propaganda.

You seem to be confusing psuedo science with sciece. The tobbacco companies have scientific studies that show that nicotine is not addictive. Just because something was done by scientists doesnt make it science.

There is absolutely zero reason to conclude that marijuana causes Schizophrenia. Until you have proof of that, and not corrolation and guesses, you need to stop saying it is true.

[mzmolly]

69. I don't have to prove anything to you. Make up your own mind.

The thread title remains accurate, and the website informative. Dismiss it if you like.

[Cyrano]

35. exposure to cats and/or marijuana can lead,

or make one susceptible to schizophrenia? Okay, I've taken note of your source, but don't have any lobster tonight. A researcher in Austria says lobster makes you more likely to want to screw a turtle.

Enough weird science. I'm outta this thread.

[1monster]

52. Huh? I never posted anything about marijuana. I asked what do they

mean by early onset, since early onset seems to be the rule not the eception.

[mzmolly]

18. Some info here:

Cannabis and schizophrenia: impact on onset, course, psychopathology and outcomes.

Bersani G, Orlandi V, Kotzalidis GD, Pancheri P.

III Clinica Psichiatrica, Universita di Roma, La Sapienza, Viale dell'Universita 30, 00185 Rome, Italy. [e-mail]

Cannabis consuming schizophrenic patients are younger at onset, are likely to have started abuse before onset of schizophrenia and show more prominent positive symptoms than nonabusers. It has been suggested that cannabis is a risk-factor for schizophrenia. Our aim was to assess prevalence and pattern of cannabis use in 125 chronic male schizophrenic subjects and its impact on socioepidemiological and clinical variables as well as which disorder precedes the other in onset. Assessment of consumption was made with a semi-structured clinical interview. Clinical status was assessed by means of the SANS, SAPS, PANSS and BPRS scales. Cannabis consumption was found in 54 subjects (43%), 66.7% of whom started it at least three years before onset of schizophrenia. Consumers were younger and with lower negative symptoms, specially abusers and polysubstance abusers. Family history positive for psychosis was more frequent in consumers, especially when consumption started before onset of schizophrenia. Subjects whose onset of schizophrenia preceded the beginning of cannabis abuse had more positive symptoms than those who started abuse before the onset of schizophrenia. On these grounds, our sample could be subdivided into two main groups, one that uses substances to counter distressing symptoms of schizophrenia and another in which cannabis might be one of the factors predisposing to the disease; the former had less negative symptoms than nonabusers. Our data support both heterogeneity of schizophrenia and genetic susceptibility to environmental agents.

I understood that most onset begins in the early 20's? So, perhaps anything prior is "early" :shrug:

[1monster]

59. Thanks. It seems to me from those I've know with mental illnesses in

their families, that quite often those who are later diagnosed with illnesses such as schizophrenia and manic-depression or bipolar disease usually show behaviors that are similar to the illnesses very early on, sometimes from a few months old.

I know two children who were diagnosed as bi-polar at four and five years old respectively. They did have very rocky beginnings, but when put on medication, they are pretty much normal kids now at eleven and twelve years old... still on the meds.

[K-W]

20. Before this thread turns stupid, read this.

The headline is misleading. These studies do NOT show that Marijuana causes schizophrenia. They show that among Schizophrenics, those that smoked Marijuana had an earlier onset of symptoms. Which is significant.

Marijuana doesnt cause schizophrenia, but people at risk of schizophrenia need to avoid pot, at least in their youth, because it could cause dangerous early onset.

[mzmolly]

25. Actually it can be a risk factor.

"Street Drug Use (Marijuana, etc.) Dramatically Increases the Risk of Getting Schizophrenia"

http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevent2.htm

Also note the many other factors mentioned:

Preventing Schizophrenia -

Environmental factors in schizophrenia, and tips for lowering the your risk, your family's risk or your child's risk of getting schizophrenia.

Part 1- Child & Adult Schizophrenia Risks and Risk Reduction Techniques
Part 2- Pregnancy, Child Schizophrenia Risks and Risk Reduction Techniques
Part 3- Current Schizophrenia Prevention Research
Environmental Factors Associated with Schizophrenia

Schizophrenia Factors relevant for Children and Teens

1. Street Drug Use (Marijuana, etc.) Dramatically Increases the Risk of Getting Schizophrenia
2. Enriched Educational, Nutrition and Social Environments Lower the Risk of Schizophrenia
3. Essential fatty acid (EFA) deficiency and resulting lipid membrane abnormalities may increase risk of schizophrenia
4. Antioxidant Intake may reduce risks of schizophrenia and decrease side effects of medications.
5. Country living (vs. City living) between ages 0 and 15 years, results in lower schizophrenia risk.
6. Lower Level of Stress for Child while Growing Up, Lowers Schizophrenia Risk.
7. Avoiding Childhood Exposure to Cats with the the T. Gondi virus may reduce schizophrenia risk.


Schizophrenia Factors Relevant During Pregnancy

Maternal infections during pregnancy are associated with increased risk of Schizophrenia

Pregnancy and baby delivery complications are associated with increased risk of schizophrenia

Season of Birth - Mother's Low Sunlight Exposure/Lack of Vitamin D is associated with higher risk of schizophrenia in child.

Vitamin D supplementation in boys during first year of life is associated with lower risk of schizophrenia.

Older Age of Father increases risk of Schizophrenia.

Lead, Alcohol and other Toxic Exposures to Pregnant Women can Triple Risk of Schizophrenia for Child

X-ray Radiation During Pregnancy (from medical X-rays, Intercontinental Flights, etc.) may increase risk of schizophrenia for child

Breast Feeding Your Baby may Reduce Risk for Schizophrenia
Maternal stress during pregnancy is associated with a higher risk of schizophrenia for the children

Interesting stuff...

[K-W]

34. That isnt a study, it is a fact sheet

Find me the study that proves or even suggests a causal relationship. Until you can do that, claiming causality is putting the cart before the horse.

[wicket]

26. That makes a lot more sense

Thank you.

[kimchi]

31. Thank you!

Everyone should avoid pot in their youth, as the brain is still developing. Having said that, and being in middle age, of sound mind and achy body, I do hereby proclaim it is time to :smoke:

[msmcghee]

46. Also, this is one study.

It is published so that others can attempt to duplicate it. If it is successfully duplicated then some useful conclusions might be drawn from it.

For the record, I have smoked pot fairly regularly since 1966. As have the vast majority of my friends. None of them have become schizophrenic - and almost all of them are kind, creative people in their own way. I'm sure my experience is not unique.

If there was some significant link between pot and schizophrenia, I think it would have been noticed by now by those of us who use it regularly and associate with others who do.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the RW has increasingly started to use funding of fake clinical studies to advance their agenda. I am reminded of the totally bogus study that was published last year that showed homosexual males could become heterosexual through therapy. It was published and looked exactly like any other scientific study - and of course the liberal media picked it up and spread it all over the place.

Later, it was determined that the study subjects selected were Christian male homosexuals who were sure they were going to hell and strongly wanted to believe they had been cured when in fact - they'd only been talked into abstaining from sex altogether.

[Downtown Hound]

62. Ditto

I live in good old Humboldt County, CA, one of the largest producers of pot in the country. Many people here smoke. I myself have cut back significantly, but I have smoked enough weed in my time to light up half the state, as have many of my friends. None of us have schizophrenia or show any signs of it. What was that? Just kidding.

Here, pot is part of the culture, and the notion that it causes schizophrenia is ridiculous. Maybe it hastens effects in people that are already susceptible, but it doesn't cause it.

Because of the success the legalization movement has had in combating much of the paranoia regarding pot, the right wing has been resorting to all kinds of ridiculous tactics to justify its continued persecution of pot smokers. For awhile they were saying that smoking pot supports terrorism, even though almost all pot is grown domestically. It's actually the drug war that supports terrorism, as it was in the context of fighting heroin that Bush gave the Taliban hundreds of millions of dollars in aid. Now they're trying to say that the potency of pot has increased so much that it's no longer the benign drug it was once, and should be classified as a hard drug. While it's true that the potency of pot has increased, the idea that it should be lumped with speed or heroin is ridiculous. And again, the increased potency is a byproduct the drug war. If pot was legal, people would have their choice of buying really potent pot or buying something more mellow. But when you get it on the street, you have to take what you find.

And now they're going back to the old scare tactics, pot causes schizophrenia. It never ends.

[mzmolly]

66. Read the website. It's not propaganda. I am glad you and your friends

are fine. The vast majority of my pot using friends are as well.

The website maintains that one needs genetic and environmental factors, though most people are not actally reading it. They assume I have an agenda.

[msmcghee]

75. Mollyz - I do not assume you have any agenda.

I was only pointing out that scientific studies that just happen to support elements of the RW agenda should be viewed with a large dose of suspicion.

That wouldn't be the case if they weren't willing to use any deceitful methods available to advance their cause.

And that unfortunately, creates a great deal of confusion for well-meaning non-scientists who want to understand these things.

[Pithlet]

119. Don't forget the "Abortions cause breast cancer" studies

I noticed that my sons' pediatrician still has that study pinned up on the bulletin board, even though I believe that "study" has been debunked.

[maggrwaggr]

22. what about women?

[librechik]

71. for some unknown reason , women don't get the disease

in anything like the numbers men do.

[maggrwaggr]

77. how odd. Most of the schizophrenics I've met personally have been female

Maybe it's just my personal magnetism. :)

[librechik]

88. I think there are a lot of bipolar females

which is just as crippling as schiz, but that's a different constellation than classic schiz--They keep refining the definitions and all those diseases seem to blend together. I've known some female schiz's too!

[flamingyouth]

24. This study fascinates me - I want to know more about it

My late husband was a heavy marijuana user. In the beginning, it seemed to relax him, chill him out, whatever. As the years went on, though, he needed it more and more and had panic attacks if his source dried up. He was afraid of being labelled "wake & bake" so he'd wait until noon to start smoking on weekends. Finally, after the years passed, he became irrational, and I desperately wanted to get him help for it, but he told me the problem was me and my "uptight values." :shrug:

As a disclaimer, I don't think there is anything wrong with weed, and I think it should be legal, but like alcohol or anything else, some people have adverse reactions to drugs. I know my husband did, sadly.

[mzmolly]

28. I agree with you, I'm for legalization but have seen the impact it has

on *some* people.

Check the website, it's highly interesting. :hi:

[flamingyouth]

30. Thank you, I definitely will

I still smoke occasionally, btw.:hi:

[Flubadubya]

40. As you must well know (probably better than many)...

Everything in moderation. Sounds like your husband had (has) an unhealthy dependence upon it, whereas you say you smoke it occasionally.

I mean, ice cream is great, but if you ate it all the time, every day, it wouldn't be so good would it?

I hope your hubby can get some help. :)

[flamingyouth]

41. LOL - believe me, I'd love to eat a pint of ice cream each day

That's the perfect analogy for me.:D

I don't think about it or "need" it the way he did, that's a big difference. But he had lots of problems that existed long before he started smoking, that's for sure.

Thanks!:hi:

[K-W]

29. In high doses it can cause dependence.

It is mildly addictive, which seemed to the be the problem with your husband. Odds are that it was also the result of other problems that pot became an escape from.

[flamingyouth]

32. Oh, he had a lot of life-long problems, believe me

And I certainly don't blame marijuana for his behavior. It just didn't help, that's all I'm saying.:hi:

[Fovea]

27. Reading the conclusion about 'street drugs'

I am forced to conclude that is no scientific goal that is served by this work, that it is, in fact, a normative bit of scientism. It quantifies nothing, and by its loose catagorization of 'street drug' cannot have much if any reliable information of use. Indeed, let us look at the 'Action' segment--
<snip>
Action:If you want to avoid getting schizophrenia - research suggests that the number one thing you should avoid are street drugs (especially marijuana/cannabis - but because you never know what someone has put into a street drug, all of them are dangerous). By avoiding use of all street drugs research suggests that you can greatly reduce the chance (by as much as 50% to 80%) that you'll develop schizophrenia. Avoiding marijuana after developing schizophrenia also helps reduce relapse rates. Some people with schizophrenia suggest that it makes them feel better, but if depression is an issue we recommend these people talk to their Psych-Doc about possible anti-depressant use rather than street drugs.
</snip>

One easily sees that this is simply a polemic against the following behaviors that the author finds undesirable.

1. Do not use 'street drugs, a semantically loaded term that the author actually seems to differentiate from LSD. Because what ever they are, they will make you crazy.

2. You don't know what the evil pusher has put in that pot (never mind that if it is so much stronger now, you wouldn't need to adulterate it.

3. You actually need to take our drugs, complete with 'sexual side-effects' instead of self medicating, because taking making yourself happier is wrong-- that's our job. Thus sayeth the pharma industries, anyway.

Correlation is not causation, and it can be easily argued that teens who suffer from early onset schizophrenia turn to 'street drugs' to self medicate. I submit that it is also possible that some of them get enough relief from self medication that they do not desire more intense anti psychotic drugs. Perhaps this is the real situation that this little tract is addressing?

[mzmolly]

36. Look at the entire website. It's not about marijuana, it's about the

disorder itself. Further, they note more than 30 studies.

Today, there are over 30 published papers linking marijuana to schizophrenia or other mental disorders. The increase in evidence during the past decade could be tied to the increased potency of marijuana. A review by the British Lung Association says that the cannabis available on the streets today is 15 times more powerful than the joints being smoked three decades ago.

The damage that someone does to their brain by smoking marijuana (or taking other street drugs) when they are younger (under the age of 18) may only become evident later in life; between the ages of 19 and 30, when the person develops schizophrenia.

Schizophrenia can sometimes be triggered by heavy use of hallucinogenic drugs, especially LSD; but it appears that one has to have a predisposition towards developing schizophrenia for this to occur. There is also some evidence suggesting that people suffering from schizophrenia but responding to treatment can have an episode as a result of use of LSD. Methamphetamine and PCP also mimic the symptoms of schizophrenia, and can trigger ongoing symptoms of schizophrenia in those who are vulnerable.


Supporting Research (a sample):

The Link between Cannabis and Psychosis - Robin Murray, MD
Cannabis link to mental illness strengthened - New Scientist Magazine
If cannabis is safe, why am I psychotic? - UK Times Online
Drug Abuse and Risk of Developing Schizophrenia - (News)
Marijuana and Schizophrenia - (News)
Cannabis mental health risks 'must be taught' - Guardian Newspaper

Review shows that cannabis use is a risk factor for schizophrenia
Psychosis and Marijuana - Study in Australia
Psychiatrists say "No" to Marijuana
The National Institute on Drug Abuse Adds Warning of Major Depressive Disorders (MDD’s) Experienced by Marijuana Users
Causal association between cannabis and psychosis: examination of the evidence. (British Journal of Psychiatry, 2004)
Cannabis use as a probable causative factor in the later development of schizophrenia
Cannabis and neurological soft signs in schizophrenia: absence of relationship and influence on psychopathology
Self reported cannabis use as a risk factor for schizophrenia in Swedish conscripts of 1969: historical cohort study
Cannabis and schizophrenia: impact on onset, course, psychopathology and outcomes
Marijuana Mental Disturbances

Also note, marijuana is ONE of the many factors noted:

Schizophrenia Factors Relevant During Pregnancy

1. Maternal infections during pregnancy are associated with increased risk of schizophrenia. Recent studies have indicated that children who born to mothers who suffer from Flu, viruses and other infections during the pregnancy are at significantly increased risk of schizophrenia. A recent research study announced in April 2004 by Columbia University identified that approximately 14% of schizophrenia cases seem to have been caused by influenza during pregnancy.

The study indicated that Flu during the first trimester of pregnancy increased risk of developing schizophrenia in the child by approx. 700%, while flu during the third trimester increased schizophrenia risk for the child by 300%.

"This is the first time that this association has been shown using" blood tests that confirmed influenza infection during pregnancy, lead author Dr. Alan S. Brown, from Columbia University in New York, told Reuters Health. "It provides what I think is the strongest evidence to date linking (prenatal) influenza exposure with schizophrenia."

The findings reinforce recommendations that women of childbearing age be vaccinated against influenza, Brown continued. However, because the mechanism underlying the schizophrenia connection is unknown, "we may not want to give the vaccine during pregnancy," he said. Until more is known, "it's possible that vaccination (during pregnancy) could have a harmful effect."



Supporting Research (a sample):

Flu During Pregnancy Linked to Schizophrenia (News, April'04)
Flu During Pregnancy Triples Risk of Schizophrenia for child (News)
Study links moms' herpes to schizophrenia in offspring (News)
Prenatal exposure to influenza as a risk factor for adult schizophrenia. (Research)
Immune activation during pregnancy in rats leads to a postpubertal emergence of disrupted latent inhibition, dopaminergic hyperfunction, and altered limbic morphology in the offspring: a novel neurodevelopmental model of schizophrenia. (Research)
Exposure to prenatal infections, genetics and the risk of systematic and periodic catatonia
In utero infection and adult schizophrenia (Research)
Maternal infection: window on neuroimmune interactions in fetal brain development and mental illness. (Research)
Maternal infections and subsequent psychosis among offspring (Research)
Prenatal teratogens and the development of adult schizophrenia (Research)

2. Pregnancy and baby delivery complications are associated with increased risk of schizophrenia. Recent studies have indicated that children who born to mothers who have had "complications" during the pregnancy or during the delivery are at increased risk of schizophrenia.

Supporting Research (a sample):

Oxygen Shortage at Birth Linked to Schizophrenia - June 4, 2001 (News)
Obstetric complications could increase risk of schizophrenia - November 2, 2001 (News)
Schizophrenia Link to Caesareans (News)
Severity of obstetric complications and risk of adult schizophrenia in male patients: a case-control study (Research)
Obstetric complications and risk of schizophrenia. An association appears undisputed, yet mechanisms are still unknown (Research)
Obstetric complications and schizophrenia: prenatal underdevelopment and subsequent neurodevelopmental impairment. (Research)
Perinatal risk factors for schizophrenia: diagnostic specificity and relationships with maternal psychopathology (Research)
Birth insult interacts with stress at adulthood to alter dopaminergic function in animal models: possible implications for schizophrenia and other disorders. (Research)

3. Season of Birth - Low Sunlight Exposure/Vitamin D deficiency is associated with higher risk of schizophrenia. Studies have indicated that children who born during certain times of the year have a higher than normal risk of schizophrenia. A lack of sunlight can lead to vitamin D deficiency, which scientists believe could alter the development of a child's brain in the mother's womb. According to an article in the New Scientist magazine, research suggests people who develop schizophrenia in Europe and North America are more likely to be born in the winter and early spring (Feburary through May) have a slightly higher than average rate of schizophrenia, while children born in October have a slightly lower than average rate of schizohprenia. There seems to be about a 10% difference in risk of schizophrenia between the high and low risk months of birth.


Supporting Research (a sample):

Schizophrenia linked to mother's lack of sunlight - New Scientist Magazine
The chance of developing schizophrenia may be directly linked to how sunny it was in the months before a person's birth, research suggests. (News)
Schizophrenia and the Seasons (News)
Low maternal vitamin D as a risk factor for schizophrenia: a pilot study using banked sera. (Research)
Exposure to sunlight, vitamin D and schizophrenia (Research)
Seasonality of symptom onset in first-episode schizophrenia (Research)
Season of birth in Japanese patients with schizophrenia. (Research)
Long-term trends in sunshine duration and its association with schizophrenia birth rates and age at first registration--data from Australia and the Netherlands (Research)
Risk factors in schizophrenia. Season of birth, gender, and familial risk (Research)

4. Vitamin D supplementation in boys during first year of life is associated with lower risk of schizophrenia. The researchers from the Queensland Centre for Schizophrenia Research Australia, suggest that regular or irregular vitamin D supplementation during the first year of life is associated with a reduced risk of schizophrenia in males, conversely for females there appears to be no apparent association. In the research study that was recently published on this it was found that "at least 2000 IU of vitamin D was associated with a reduced risk of schizophrenia compared to those on lower doses"


Supporting Research (a sample):

Vitamin D in boys to avoid schizophrenia in men - (News)
Vitamin D supplementation during the first year of life and risk of schizophrenia: a Finnish birth cohort study (Research)

5. Older Age of Father increases risk of Schizophrenia. Recent studies have indicated that children who born to older fathers have a higher risk of schizophrenia. This is believed to be due to the higher levels of DNA damage in the sperm of older men.

Supporting Research (a sample):

The site is not biased against marijuana, or cats, though both are mentioned. :hi:

[Fovea]

63. I did understand that it was a site about Schiz.

But I am curious...

Why did you choose to single out this particular factor, over all other factors, many far more significant and well documented? You do realize that you could probably get a grant to be the 31st paper cited on this page? Because the work that gets funded is the stuff that promises to further reinforce the prohibition. I saw the kind of research that was getting funded in the 80's, and some of it got published without the normal peer review process. What is that kind of science? We call it Lysenkoism. Google Trofin Lysenko for more.

For example, if I was going to post a warning message about schizophrenia, I would suggest everyone have their parents tested. You yourself noted other factors in defense of the site.

Whether you intended this or not, your post comes off as just another reefer madness scare, and really, that particular system of social control has been taken to the well and pulled out empty far too many times in the last 50 years. You may have an anacdotal validation for your concern, and I am not diminishing your feelings about that, but I talked to a Neurologist on her way to Houston right before I had a stroke... Should I conclude that talking about the stroke caused it, or urge others not to talk about strokes with Neurologists?

If I was going to write a drastic warning about pot, I would post one with a header that said--

"Warnin, Marijuana may lead to arrest, prison rape, and permanent loss of voting privileges." Because frankly, prison rape is a far greater public health issue with MJ usage than schizophrenia.
:shrug:

[mzmolly]

73. Because this one I believe effected my family personally, and because

I thought it would be more interesting then the impact of Omega fatty acids on mental health. ;)

[maggrwaggr]

78. still, alcohol is a FAR worse drug than cannibis

Most people don't beat their wives/kids, get into fights in bars, go after people with knives, drive 100 mph and wrap their cars around poles, etc. etc.

while smoking pot.

[mzmolly]

84. I'll give you that, though my rele was diagnosed as a

"paranoid schizophrenic, with homicidal tendencies." But, by and large, it's less harmful than alcohol I'd agree.

[nightperson]

113. If alcohol was discovered or invented today,

imagine the wild stories the government and media would be throwing at us! "Budweiser Madness", "Schlitz Heads on the Rampage", "I Sold My Soul to MeisterBrau"!

[misanthrope]

55. Oh yes...

...by all means, let's do what those cute little commercials tell us. Feeling a little down? Get a prescription. Having a bad day? Get a prescription. Don't feel like going to work today? Get a prescription.

After all, how else is that doctor supposed to justify all those perks and bonuses he/she accepts from the pharmaceutical corps?

How about instead of a prescription, we decide on getting a clue instead? Wake up, folks; life is hard! It out-and-out sucks at times. And the best thing we can do is learn how to cope with it.

So somebody wants to unwind by smoking a little herb? Big freakin' deal! Complete dependence on anything to make it through the minute-to-minute hassle of life is not good. Chocolate, Budweiser, cannabis, cocaine, tobacco, Jesus; it can all become a crutch that inhibits productivity and coping skills.

Life isn't supposed to be a carousel, it's a rollercoaster and you just have to learn to roll with it.

[mopinko]

33. don't know about schiz, but

i have early onset bipolar in my family, and i know there are overlaps in the epidemiological trends in all mental illnesses.
there is an across the board increase in the incidence, and decrease in the age of onset of mental illness in advanced cultures. there is probably a nutritional link. as corn and soybean oil become major parts of the diet, and as the intake of fats increase in the diet, mental illness increases. supplements of omega 3 fatty acids have been clinically shown to be helpful in the treatment of several mental illnesses, both in conjunction with meds, and alone.
what i know about early onset bp is that behavior patterns are seen long before recognized symptoms arise. so, use of mj could well be just one of those early symptoms and have no impact on the course of the disease. i dunno. one of the frustrating aspects of prohibition is a lack of understanding of the effects. you would have to go a long way to prove to me that it is not a chicken and egg thing.

[misanthrope]

37. THIS JUST IN! Oxygen is...

...the ultimate gateway drug. It seems every drug addict studied used oxygen before they used any other substance. It can be proven then that without the influence of oxygen, they would have never become addicted to illegal drugs.

Though the culture is presently doing what it can to eradicate this dangerous substance, it is not making headway quickly enough. This menace to our society must be stopped now!

Let's do it for the children.

We now take you back to your regular programming.
(and we don't call it "programming" for nothing...although just WHAT we're "programming" we won't admit, though)

[slutticus]

109. Oxygen is actually very toxic...

....to your body. It is constantly damaging your DNA.

[Suzi Creamcheese]

45. Reefer Madness Revisited

Maybe what we need is for the government to make a movie showing how people who smoke "street drugs" (apparently they grow on the street?) are at a party and turn into raving psychotic schizophrenics before our eyes. Yes, that would convince everyone.

All drugs have side effects. The fact is that marijuana has been used by hundreds of millions of people without harm. No doubt there are a few who have been adversely affected by 'heavy drug use'. Does that mean that everyone else should be thrown in jail for it?

There is a big difference between saying it is not a good idea to use drugs and tossing people into hellholes for doing it.

[K-W]

47. The problem here is its not ALL propaganda

there is a fairly well, though not yet understood relationship between pot and schzophrenia, but the scientificly supported claim is simply that people with other risk factors should be careful with pot, nothing more severe than that is supported.

But this can very easily be spun to scare people.

[mzmolly]

54. I've never claimed anything more.

:hi:

the scientificly supported claim is simply that people with other risk factors should be careful with pot, nothing more severe than that is supported.

I believe in knowlege. If people are AWARE, perhaps if they experience symptoms, they'll know enough to stop before it becomes a "life long problem."

[mzmolly]

51. Like I said, this is not an attempt to question the case for legalization.

Use at your own risk. But, I'd think twice if I had a family history of schizophrenia.

:hi:

[K-W]

58. If this is all you were trying to say, I apologize.

But the thread topic is misleading. It would be splitting hairs if the drug war werent such a major tragedy of our times.

[mzmolly]

61. The war on mental illness is also a tragedy.

Excessive alcohol use is tragic.

However, I feel that people should make up their own minds about pot and booze. And for the record, I'd rather see MJ regulated and legal, b/c then we'd know for certain if it's the pot or something used by dealers to enhance the high that is contributing to mental illness. Could be PCP for all we know?

[TeacherCreature]

92. Drug use is a major tragedy of our times

The fact that the war on drugs is mishandled doesn't change that.

[Suzi Creamcheese]

127. I am not recommend that people use any drug. However the punishment

should not be worse than the crime, and the risk of smoking pot is vanishingly small compared to the Draconian laws against it.

[mzmolly]

130. I'd have no problem legalizing pot, but I'd like to be honest about

what it's pros/cons are.

I'd prefer to invest in treatment rather than prision for abusers of any drug, personally.

[Suzi Creamcheese]

132. Then we are in complete agreement, and thank you for your

informative article

[ilovenicepeople]

111. it's true street drugs are dangerous!

You could get run over,may I suggest using sidewalk drugs instead.

[Suzi Creamcheese]

128. lol, there you go. Love your logo Frank

[Mr_Spock]

70. Um, would this thread be this popular in Freeperland?? LOL

I am in agreement that "susceptible" people may be more likely to smoke to alleviate symptoms. I'm not sure if it makes a person more susceptible or even changes chemistry - it might. The stuff always made me paranoid - maybe I'm more susceptible - who knows? Anyway, I think it makes people less motivated and I believe that is a bad thing. Most people I knew on welfare smoked quite a bit of weed, it didn't do anything for their motivation levels, never mind the other strange things it did, like making both sexes merge into one breasted raspy voiced "burn-out". Yeah, it's a generalization, but this outcome was most pronounced in the people who smoked the most. Schizophrenia - I suppose it's possible - I'll keep an open mind.

[mzmolly]

72. Thanks for the open mind. I thought they might like it at freeperland,

but I know Repugs who smoke weed too. Also, Im not a member at FL. ;)

And heck, I think outside the box sooooo, I'd rather have a bit of fun with the stoners here.

:P

[Mr_Spock]

74. LOL, oh I knew LOTs of stoner freepers. This coke head I knew became a cop

It was so funny because he did coke until the last possible moment, then he stopped so he would pass the drug screen. Others I knew smoked and did a TON of coke used to use the term "flaming liberals". I still laugh at that term and use it tongue and cheek often. You "flaming liberal" you. :)

[mzmolly]

76. Yes, and don't forget our boy George. Coke head leader of the free world.

Perhaps his coke use, explains his direct line to "God" :crazy:

:hi:

Next headline:

"Coke users more likely to hear directly from the diety" :P

[Mr_Spock]

80. You know, I experimented with a certain little microdot pill and I swear

for a single instant I knew the meaning of life. It was a fleeting moment, but I'll never forget it. I was amazed at the simplicity of it - I think that IS the secret actually. It's just too obvious for most people to see, and too scary for the rest. Oh, am I in the "God" thread now? lol

[mzmolly]

82. My dh claims everyone should do Acid so they "understand" the meaning

of life, but as I consider myself a "wiser" person in spite of his epiphany, I told him I'd have to pass.

Thankfully, he's too old to mess around with that stuff anymore. ;)

[kerry-is-my-prez]

86. You cannot develop schizophrenia unless you have a genetic predispostion

towards it. Spoken as one who is a former Psychiatric social worker who worked with that population for several years.

Other things that will cause schizophrenia to finally appear: death of mother/father/grandparents - or some other extremely stressful situation.

If you are born with the Schizophrenia gene - it is probably going to appear sooner or later NO MATTER WHAT by the time you reach your twenties.

I will say that Marijuana is VERY BAD for anyone who has Schizophrenia or any other severe type of mental illness. It WILL bring it out.

[mzmolly]

90. True, but some identical twins develop the disorder while others do

not inspite of the genetics involved, which may have led to research surrounding environmental factors.

Actually to my understanding many people (the majority) who have "the gene" never develop the disorder?

I agree with this:

I will say that Marijuana is VERY BAD for anyone who has Schizophrenia or any other severe type of mental illness. It WILL bring it out.

And, I'll say alcohol is also harmful for those who have mental illness. :shrug:

[Sparky McGruff]

95. There is no single schizophrenia gene

Spoken as one who studies the genetic factors that underlie schizophrenia.

There are at least 20 genes that have been shown to increase the risk for schizophrenia, in one population study or another. All of these genes have also been shown not to be a factor in at least one other study... with the possible exception of one or two genes that have been found too recently for "confirmation" studies to be done... The significance of this (in my opinion) -- there are probably dozens of genes that can give you increased risk for schizophrenia. But it's not all genetics. Identical twins of schizophrenics have about a 50% risk of getting schizophrenia, which means that genetics is important, but not the end of the story.

There are also at least two dozen environmental factors (stress, drug usage, illness, etc) and two dozen developmental factors (maternal stress or malnutrition, exposure to certain teratogens, etc) that can also increase risk.

Part of the problem is that psychosis is really a symptom, not a disease in itself. We still don't know what the underlying disease is. Think of it like high blood pressure or heart disease. There's multiple genetic factors to each of these. But, there's also environmental factors (diet, lifestyle). If you're born with good genes, you can probably have a few extra helpings of the fried chicken. On the other hand, if you're born with semi-bad genes, you may not have any problems if you eat well, exercise, and have a low-stress lifestyle. In the extreme case, however, if you've got really bad genes, you're screwed no matter what.

Is drug usage one of these factors? Maybe. If you're at high risk (a close family member is schizophrenic), it's definitely a selling point for giving up the recreational drugs. Not a confirmed, casual factor, but definitely worth considering.

[mzmolly]

99. Very well said. Thanks.

Your post was most informative.

[Elidor]

107. So it may be an environmental factor

But the causal relationship is still speculative? The first article does sound a bit like "Hey, this guy is a schizophrenic and he smokes pot - there must be a connection there!"

My SO has inadvertently triggered psychotic episodes by smoking pot - something I don't like for her to do, though I'm a big puffer myself. But it seems to me that, for her at least, the pot is a trigger rather than the underlying cause. I can buy that it's an environmental factor in the development of and can exacerbate existing conditions. But saying "Studies link marijuana to schizophrenia" seems disingenuous to me. And it reeks - pardon the pun - of Reefer Madness.

[depakid]

97. The study only shows a correlation- not a causal link

The Melbourne study- along with other dubious studies claiming to make the same link all suffer from major methodological problems. First and foremost is the possibility that people who have a strong disposition to develop (or who are developing)schizophrenia may be much more likely to use marijuana or "street drugs" or alcohol in the first place. That phenominon is well documented and in some circumstances is called "self medicating." It's not easily controlled for.

Second, this study and others like it tend to use urban and often lower income subjects- and a host differences between those groups and the general population could also be responsible for earlier onset.

Finally, schizophrenia has a very strong genetic component. It involve major anomalies in the actual brain structure- anomalies that one inherits and without some yet undiscovered intervention will probably develop in any case, not unlike other genetic disorders like Huntingtons Chorea. To say or to imply that marijuana "causes" or even "increases the risk" of developing schizophrenia is not only irresponsible science (or science reporting) but it does a disservice to groups that try to educate people as to the known dangers of marijuana use, such as lung damage, increased cancer risk or simply doing stupid things while stoned.

[mzmolly]

101. The website notes many studies.

Like this one:

Cannabis link to mental illness strengthened

The link between regular cannabis use and later depression and schizophrenia has been significantly strengthened by three new studies.

The studies provide "little support" for an alternative explanation - that people with mental illnesses self-medicate with marijuana - according to Joseph Rey and Christopher Tennant of the University of Sydney, who have written an editorial on the papers in the British Medical Journal.

One of the key conclusions of the research is that people who start smoking cannabis as adolescents are at the greatest risk of later developing mental health problems. Another team calculates that eliminating cannabis use in the UK population could reduce cases of schizophrenia by 13 per cent.

Until now, say Rey and Tennant, there was "a dearth of reliable evidence" to support the idea that cannabis use could cause schizophrenia or depression. That lack of good evidence "has handicapped the development of rational public health policies," according to one of the research groups, led by George Patton at the Murdoch Children's Research Institute in Melbourne, Australia.

The works also highlights potential risks associated with using cannabis as a medicine to ease the symptoms of muscular sclerosis, for example.

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993098

[depakid]

105. The major trouble is with causal direction of the correlation

Without knowing that- or understanding the complex biological processes by which schizophrenia develops or how that development may be affected by marijuana, statistical inferences such as eliminating cannabis use in the UK population could reduce cases of schizophrenia by 13 per cent as simply not valid.

Obviously, the connection warrants further study- like you, I'm all for gaining and passing alone knowledge. My problem lies with how things are reported. Studies like this (there's a Japanese study published in 2002 that reported substantially similar results) are often touted by the media and agenda driven groups as "proof" that marijuana "causes" or "increases the risk" of scizophrenia- without really providing information about what the results themselves really mean and how they relate to what we already know or strongly suspect about the disorder.

[mdmc]

100. Democrats tend to have higher mental illness rates than the GOP

but voting dem won't cause you to get a mental illness.

I hope all those with illness find grace.

[mzmolly]

102. Hey, Right Wingism is a mental illness...

According to a study done at Berkely ;)

[Warren DeMontague]

106. Right. Stick with Booze and Nicotine, Kids..

They're good for ya!

Oh, and be sure to take lots of those overpriced pharmaceutical company anti-depressants, you know, the ones that turn you into a sexless zombie ready for 8 hours a day of mind-numbing, corporate dronedom! They're Grrrrreat! And, they only cost $40 a pill!

Schizophrenia, as I understand it (watch, now some asshat is going to ask me to provide written verification of having studied this, too) doesn't generally manifest itself until late teens or early twenties, in most people. Most people who smoke pot start before then. This study acknowledges that these effects seem to happen in people with a predisposition to schizophrenia. Therefore, it's hardly arguable that pot is "making" anyone schizophrenic. Other than that, legalize it, tax it, and use the money from the taxes to help treat mental illess, which is grossly under-funded in this country. I can't imagine that schizophrenics who smoke pot are helped by the gummint turning them into criminals and throwing them into jail. Where's the study that says countries like the Netherlands, which have a more tolerant, harm reduction approach to drugs, have more schizophrenics running around?

Beyond that, I'm not sure what the point of this piece is. Yes, schizophrenics and those with predispositions thereof, probably shouldn't mess around with certain chemicals.. just like alcoholics shouldn't drink. Does that mean that the chemical itself is "evil", or that the millions of people who use it responsibly are "wrong"? Hardly, I think.

[depakid]

108. Interestingly enough- people with many mental illnesses tend to

be prodigious consumers of tobacco. I've heard a number of plausible explanations for this- ut in terms of what we're discussing in this thread, it seems to me to underscore the question of whether we're putting the cart before the horse here.

[slutticus]

110. "...exposure to cats in childhood was a risk factor..."

I knew cats were evil!

[VelmaD]

112. Cats are food.

Sorry. DarkPhenyx didn't seem to be around to say it and somebody had to. :evilgrin:

[mzmolly]

118. LOL. It appears to be cats with a specific virus, but....

why take a chance?
My schizophrenic pot smoking rele, has 5 cats....coincidence? :P

[DBoon]

121. John Ashcroft was right

Avoid those calicos!

[mzmolly]

125. Now don't panic, it's only cats with the T. Gondi virus ... and this only

proves the site is not biased against marijuana, or uhm cats for that matter.

Avoiding Childhood Exposure to Cats with the the T. Gondi virus may reduce schizophrenia risk.

Recent epidemiologic studies indicate that infectious agents may contribute to some cases of schizophrenia. In animals, infections with Toxoplasma gondii can alter behavior and neurotransmitter function. In humans, acute infection with the cat virus "T. gondii" can produce psychotic symptoms similar to those displayed by persons with schizophrenia. Two other studies found that exposure to cats in childhood was a risk factor for the development of schizophrenia. It seems from the research that this is a relatively low risk factor in schizophrenia - compared to the aforementioned risk factors.

Action: Minimize exposure of young children to cats (we're not sure how easy it to check to see if your cat is carrying the "T. Gondii" virus).

Supporting research is noted here:
http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevent2.htm#cats

[bhunt70]

115. here is a good link for studies on marijuana and usage here

http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/marijuana/

for example

In the case of delinquency, schizophrenia and mental illnesses, the balance of the evidence points to the second explanation. Marijuana doesn't cause the problems, although it may make them worse. Some schizophrenics, for example, are drawn to the drug because it eases their sense of alienation. And most researchers now accept that the evidence linking marijuana to abnormal brain waves vanishes when people with psychiatric problems, illnesses or a history of general drug abuse are excluded from studies

[mdmc]

129. there you have it... worthy of a

:kick:

[maxanne]

116. it's a shame

that the topic of marijuana makes so many so defensive.

I teach an educational program to DUI offenders. Our program merely states that marijuana can trigger psychotic episodes in people with schizophrenia.

The war on drugs is a terrible waste of money - but let's not ignore the fact that marijuana is harmful for some people. Not all, not even most, but for some it's harmful, and addictive. Someone I love dearly is going through hell right now because of pot addiction - and one reason it's so bad for her, is that no one takes it seriously.

Not everyone who drinks gets addicted to alcohol - in fact most don't. Alcoholics make up about 13% of the general population. Not everyone who smokes pot gets addicted, or has problems but some do.
Ignoring the fact that a small percentage do isn't right.

[Must_B_Free]

123. Studies also link mariphrenia with schizojuana

[VOX]

126. Not true -- and both of me are saying that!

First off, I don't mean to make light of mental illness -- I have dealt with it in my family, so I've been there.

Of course, *any* drug -- including alcohol -- if ingested heavily, especially by during teenage years, will have a profound impact on mental health.

But extensive reading of the numerous studies of this subject reveals a concurrence that the genetically predisposed are primarily at risk. If drugs are involved at all, they are believed to serve as a catalyst for those already at risk.

[mzmolly]

131. Right.

But extensive reading of the numerous studies of this subject reveals a concurrence that the genetically predisposed are primarily at risk. If drugs are involved at all, they are believed to serve as a catalyst for those already at risk.

The link I provided makes this claim, and nothing more.

However, you seem to have confused Multiple Personality Disoder with schizophrenia in your joke. ;)

[NecessaryOnslaught]

133. I see DeAd PeOpLe

BWAhahaha