Dem spokesman: "You're going to think it's a Republican convention"

[thistle]

Today's NY Times pre-convention coverage says:

..Other Democrats said that beyond biography, Mr. Kerry's convention had been planned as a pageantry of patriotism, with a heavy emphasis on Mr. Kerry's service in Vietnam.

"You're going to see more veterans, more patriotism, more talk about protecting our country," said one senior Democrat who insisted on anonymity in discussing the details of the convention. "You're going to think you're looking a Republican convention."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/25/politics/campaign/25KERR.html?pagewanted=2&hp

I think this is a very smart strategy for us Dems, because it will reach out to moderates. What do you guys think?

[scarletwoman]

1. What do I think?

:puke:

More bullshit and no substance -- that's what I think.

sw

[grytpype]

2. If that's what it takes to win...

[ChocolateSaltyBalls]

5. If that's what it takes to win.........

then what are we actually winning?

I'd rather have the 'moderates' vote for a Democrat because it's the right thing to do based on the Democratic platform, than to lure them in because we are waving a bigger flag.

[Sparkly]

8. Veterans, patriotism, flags, security, etc.

are all valid themes and icons. They ARE part of our platform!

I don't see the problem!!

[ChocolateSaltyBalls]

13. So too are.......

Equal and Civil Rights, fairness, fiscal responsibility, social safety nets, education, and a host of other things that stand to pushed to the wayside as they scramble to wave the flag.

[Sparkly]

16. That's ALL under the banner of the flag

literally. The flag is a symbol.

Those are not getting "pushed to the wayside." The convention is essentially a big pep rally, and hype, hoopla, balloons, speeches, music, silly hats, etc. are all part of it. Doesn't diminish the platform one iota.

And I am glad to see Democrats talking about patriotism and waving the flag!

[Kanary]

19. The dems shredded the safety net issue a LONG time ago

but I really appreciate your sentiments...... it's rare these days.

Thank You!

:hug:

Kanary

[ChocolateSaltyBalls]

39. These sentiments may be rare..........

but it's why I'm a Democrat and not a Republican, and why I'm proud to stand up next to folks like you while taking this country back from those who don't have it's best interests in mind.

:hug: right back at 'cha.

[Kanary]

45. awww....... that means more to me than you know!

Dang, how can I be righteously angry with Dems, with people like you being a *TRUE* Dem! :hi:

:yourock:

I'm really speechless........ :pals:

Now, I invite you to participate in any of the current threads about poverty, and the housing issue.... it's not a popular one among Dems, as you know......

Thanks....... you're words are so important to me!

Kanary

[Sparkly]

47. Suggested reading

http://www.democrats.org/about/2000platform.html#prosperity

[Kanary]

56. Yup, the "balance the budget" stuff always is on the back of the

poorest.

Just like Clinton, tossing the women and children who needed the assistance, to the wolves. (I have nothing against wolves, just don't like 'em pitted against the poorest of the poor.)

Once again, the "balance the budget" move will get rid of more. I may be among them. But, oh well, so what.....

At least we'll get the flag waving.......

Kanary

[Sparkly]

65. Oops, wrong one

http://www.democrats.org/platform/

[Kanary]

90. No, it was the right one.

That's where the DEMs are, and I'm not fooled by cute windowdressing.

Maybe because it's *MY* death that's at stake?

Or, would that ever matter....

Kanary

[Sparkly]

95. "Cute windowdressing?"

Kanary, I posted the 2000 one instead of the 2004 one, it wasn't about windowdressing.

Are you implying that someone here doesn't care about death, yours or anyone else's?

[Kanary]

97. You got that right!

[Sparkly]

101. That's a pretty extreme statement, Kanary

and rather offensive, as well. What makes you anyone here doesn't care about death?

[Kanary]

112. And DEMs letting Section 8 housing be decimated is pretty extreme

and just as offensive........ in fact, maybe a tad more so.

But, of course, it's just the lives of poor folk...... not like they really count for anything....

Kanary

[Sparkly]

116. "someone here" -?

Please read p. 27 of the platform on PDF (it's numbered p. 24 of the document itself).

You might read the whole thing while you're at it, if you haven't.

[Kanary]

121. "someone here"?

Not my post.

But, thanks for trying.........

Since it matters to you, you might want to post in one of the threads currently going about this very issue.

Kanary

[Sparkly]

124. Oh good grief. My apologies to all for pursuing this tangent.

Your posts included several statements like, "Maybe because it's *MY* death that's at stake? Or, would that ever matter...."

So I asked, "Are you implying that someone here doesn't care about death, yours or anyone else's?"

You said, "You got that right!"

I asked why you thought anyone here doesn't care about death, and you cited "DEMs letting Section 8 housing be decimated."

That's not "someone here" not caring about death, and I'd like to reiterate that I find it offensive to imply that anyone here doesn't care about death, yours or anyone else's.

I suggest we refocus on the common goal of the "DEMs" now, which is to get John Kerry elected.

Again, my apologies to all for pursuing this tangent.

[salonghorn70]

155. Hey Kanary, Me Too

Kanary, I am a DLC Democrat. I firmly believe that political success is built by building coalitions of individuals or groups. If you and I sat down and had a beer, I promise you that there are things that we agree on. How about if you sat down and had a beer with Bush? I don't think there would be much to agree on. Maybe baseball. This is why I really resent all the DLC bashing. If Nadar people and DLC people sat down and had a beer there would be things that we could agree to.

This is why FDR was such a great politician. He built coalitions of groups. They may not have agreed on everything but there were some things they all agreed on.

So, Kanary, here is my toast to you.:toast:

[trotsky]

15. Campaign in the middle, govern from the edge.

That's what * did in 2000, and that's what most politicians do. There is nothing wrong with embracing principles that we have always supported, but which the Republicans have tried to trademark for their party.

[ChocolateSaltyBalls]

20. You're right........

but my problem is that what Kerry should be doing is emphasizing the differences between a Republican and a Democrat, not trying to blur the lines between them.

[Sparkly]

25. It's a pretty sad day when the GOP owns the American flag!

Saying we are patriotic Americans is blurring the lines? They've won a LOT already, in that case.

[Kanary]

28. Yes, they "won a lot already"

And *WE* let them........

By blurring those lines of standing up for the poor folk, the minorities, and all the other issues that DEMs are traditionally supportive of. Those issues have died, as are many of the people who are needing the DEMs to stand with them, instead of congratulating themselves on a show of republicanism.

Not that those deaths matter.........don't give it a thought....

Kanary

[Sparkly]

32. "A show of republicanism"??

Flags and patriotism in a convention = not caring about the poor? That's a huge leap in logic!!

What would you have them uphold instead, flags with coffins on them to symbolize "dead issues?"

[ChocolateSaltyBalls]

33. It's not about Dems saying that we are patriotic.......

that obviously goes without saying, it's that it's shame that this is the tact that they feel will lure in the 'moderate' vote.

I just disagree with the decision; those few that believe that Democrats are unpatriotic are already lost causes and it would serve Kerry (and us) better to emphasize to the undecided why voting Democratic is better for this country....make it clear (without trying to be more 'Patriotic') that Republicans are a disaster.

I think it's just a waste of valuable time.

[Sparkly]

38. I don't think one precludes the other

And I disagree that the "patriotism" issue doesn't resonate with swing voters. I think it's important not to shrug our shoulders and watch the GOP usurp the American flag and portray Democrats as "unpatriotic" -- which they have done with phenomenal success, unfortunately.

I do agree that the emphasis is on showing why Democrats are better for the country. I see no reason to believe they won't do that, right along with the pep-rally atmosphere.

[ChocolateSaltyBalls]

41. Clearly one doesn't preclude the other..........

and I guess my major distaste for this whole thing is that now in some way, we are forced to waste time trying to convince people that a vote for Kerry isn't a vote for Bin Laden because the (to borrow a phrase) Republican Noise Machine has said it's so.

[Sparkly]

42. I understand

But you're right, they did say that, and we do have to.

[tom_paine]

84. Yo, ChocolateSaltyBalls, welcome to DU

:toast: :party: :toast: put your feet up and have a Genny Cream Ale! :beer:

(if it should turn out that we know each other, which I believe is a possibility, please PM me rather than discussing it in open forum)

Man, it is refreshing to hear another voice like yours (and mine).

Perhaps you'd like to weigh in on this thread, also...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2047918

Whether you do or not, nice to have you hear and I look forward to reading many more of your posts.

:toast:

[PeaceForever]

50. Yeah good point.

It's also important to energize the base, since only half of eligible voters get out to the polls.

The fact that John Kerry and so many Democrats are pro-war makes me want to hold my nose when I vote this November. No doubt there are other antiwar people who won't even bother to turn out in November.

Fuck the DLC.

[grytpype]

72. THE FUCKING WHITE HOUSE!

Maybe we should have nominated Kucinich, so we could lose by a landslide and feel really good about the things Kucinich would have tried to do if he had been elected, which is impossible of course, but we would feel good about it.

Losers. Out. Of. The. Way. Please.

[ChocolateSaltyBalls]

80. Out of the way of what?.......

Your lockstep marching parade?

Gladly.

If we win THE FUCKING WHITE HOUSE because we've out-flag-waved the Republcans then we will be forever doomed to keep it up.

[grytpype]

86. I'm sure we all wish...

I'm sure we all wish the level of discourse in this country were higher... a lot higher... but try wishing in one hand and shitting in the other and see which hand fills up first.

If a fricking flag parade will help Kerry win so we can drive the Bushists out of power, then sign me up. Give me four flags and I'll wave two with my feet.

[scarletwoman]

24. Well, if it actually works, fine.

I guess it depends on one's opinion of the American voter. Is the vast majority susceptible to the right kind of bullshit? Or are there enough out there that might actually appreciate some substance?

I suppose that if you perceive the electorate as being largely comprised of idiots, the busllshit tactic is the way to go. Who am I to argue?

Go for the bullshit and good luck to us all...

sw

[Zidane]

170. If it is true

that flag waving BS with out substance wins over the majority of americans... well, all I can say is perhaps the founders were right NOT to trust the masses to vote for the president...

[jonnyblitz]

128. my exact sentiments.

but it probably works.

[ChocolateSaltyBalls]

3. Why bother having two separate conventions........

if they plan on trying to 'out-Patriotism' the Republicans?

[ClassWarrior]

130. Because OUR patriotism cares about people.

We're waving the flag for working people, and oppressed people, and all people. Not just for the elite.

I really don't care if we LOOK like RepubliCONs - AS LONG AS WE SOUND AND ACT AND THINK like Democrats.

[ChocolateSaltyBalls]

136. How do you propose that this difference gets articulated?.....

Waving a flag is waving a flag is waving a flag.

[Sparkly]

137. I think there'll be some speeches, too n/t

[ChocolateSaltyBalls]

141. Yeah, maybe if we're lucky we can hypnotize..........

some Moderates by the feverish flag-waving, thereby making them stick around long enough to listen to what we have to say.

Sounds like a plan; good luck.

Or, better yet, maybe both Kerry and Edwards can have suits made from actual American Flags....and every delegate gets a Flag tattoo.

[ClassWarrior]

142. Don't you read before you post?

BY SOUNDING AND ACTING AND THINKING like Democrats.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[salonghorn70]

158. What is Wrong With Patriotism?

Nominating a candidate for President is one of the most patriotic things we can do. I love our country. I am apple pie, hamburgers, hot dogs and cheese enchiladas. I teach my son to wave the flag and stand up for his beliefs. That is what being an American is all about.

[calimary]

4. No, it's actually pretty smart. Yes, it's a lot of song and dance,

but the polls continue to show that, if bush has any shot at all, it's to play the "I'm better on fighting terrorism than Kerry is." SOMEHOW (I know, I know. It doesn't make sense to me, either) people have that impression, and the republi-CONS have that one on tight rotation in the playlist - it's repeated again and again and again and again and again as though it were "Stairway to Heaven" on an all-request "What's the best rock song of all time" weekend.

Look, we're gonna get a bump next week, just because. In much the same way as bush, unfortunately, also will get a bump after his convention. But if Kerry can position himself as perfectly suited with the "pageantry of patriotism" and his fellow vets and other "Band of Brothers" and of course, all those "Firefighters for Kerry," it presents a MOST favorable and useful image to the average, poorly-informed news-viewer. Bring 'em on, I'd say.

[Lex]

6. I'm tired of conceding the patriotism & love of country theme to Repukes.

.
Hey, I'm not for worshiping the flag or mindless patriotism, BUT

I am so damned tired of having to watch the democracy-hating, homophobic, racist, Republican assholes insisting THEY are the patriots, and THEY are the only ones who love this country.

So, I say, let's take the flag-waving away from them--even Michael Moore wrote an essay about doing this very thing!

[johnfunk]

7. It's about taking back our flag, our Constitution and our nation...

... from the traitorous Neocons and their meat puppet Bush Boy the Son King.

Republicans have been faking the patriotism for years when in fact they don't give a sh!t about the Constitution, the rank-and-file in the Armed Forces or the veterans who defended our nation and served in uniform.

Sure, if you've been drinking the Gingrich Kool-Aid, you'd think it's a Republican convention.

And if you've been serving it, here's YOUR flag!

... and here's your last warning -- we're taking back America from you and all of your traitorous GOP allies!

[Lex]

17. Yeah, right on! n/t

[tridim]

9. Well, that's what conventions are for

and the Democratic party IS patriotic. No big deal.

[johnfunk]

12. ROTFLMAO tridim -- love your siggie grafx!

The gay marriage equation from The Daily Show -- classic!

[union_maid]

10. I think we need to make it very clear

that a Kerry administration would keep our country safer than Bush's has done or will do. I think we've been trying to wrest the flag and patriotism from their exclusive grip for 30 years. Like everything else about him, John Kerry's patriotism is complex and nuanced and constructive, rather than blind. So, I think it's fine.

We lost a lot of Democratic voters in the Vietnam Era. Kerry is a good person to try to bring them back. He'll fight for his country and he'll speak truth to power when the powerful are wrong. That should be a good message.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

11. It's about time the Dems took back patriotism

It's like they let the conservative reich wing make people think that only they loved this country. Of course, I say actions speak louder than words-I told that to the local Guard families who were raising money for flak jackets for their loved ones. I let them know I protested the war because I felt it was putting their loved ones in harm's way needlessly-but that I fully supported the troops. I got smiles and a thank you.

[thistle]

18. Yes, that is what I am hoping for, too. Taking back patriotism, I mean.

Repubs are not more patriotic than Dems.

[Kanary]

14. I hope the DEMS are getting a LOT of money for selling out the party

Since that seems to be the total agenda.

The party of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Thanks for the warning......... I won't be watching.

This is sure to swell the ranks of the third parties!

Kanary

[emulatorloo]

30. Kickbacks from the flag manufacturers? OH MY GOODNESS!?!?

Sorry, pugs don't own the flag.

[progressivebydesign]

138. Wow.. I guess the GOP is right... we DO hate America!

I predicted, when I read the original message, that many DUers would be pissed about this... all it makes me think is that you're living up to the stereotypes that do all liberals in. What's wrong with associating with OUR flag? Or with being patriotic? It never has meant an allegiance to one party or ideal.. but, in fact, it originally meant that we were free to think and say whatever we like. I"m sad that so many liberals are so willing to live up to the stereotypes.

What do all the posters who think we've sold out want? Free joints for everyone? A dunk tank for veterans? WTF?

[YNGW]

21. OMG! What have we become?

In order to defeat the enemy, we have become the mirror image of our enemy.

[WilliamPitt]

26. We've become smart

[YNGW]

31. That would be a change.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Lex]

34. Nope. You should read Michael Moore's essay on the subject.

.

From Moore:

I think it's time for those of us who love this country -- and everything it should stand for -- to reclaim our flag from those who would use it to crush rights and freedoms, both here at home and overseas. We need to redefine what it means to be a proud American.

[ChocolateSaltyBalls]

79. Redefine it for whom?........

and how?

By screaming "We're the true Patriots!!!!!" louder than the GOP so that the undecided voters think "You know, that John Kerry sure is patriotic"?

I said somewhere up in the hinterlands of this thread that those who need this 'redefinition' are lost anyhow, and we need to let people know why Democrats are better for this country than Republicans.

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChocolateSaltyBalls]

143. Take a deep breath........

Are you suggesting that we Democrats need Patriotism explained to us?

Perhaps you do, I don't.....I know what it means, and I don't the DNC to tell me how Patriotic I am.

Oh, and please refrain from calling me names, 'disruptor', 'jackass', or otherwise.

[Squeech]

22. Very important to stress Kerry's navy service

As distinct from Smirky's occasional weekends in the champagne unit of TANG.

Nobody expects substance out of the conventions. The actual business gets done in the proverbial smoke-filled rooms, and you practically have to be a Kremlinologist to figure out what really happened, and only the insiders really care. So the public face is just going to be how to sell John Kerry to the people who are beginning to doubt the competence of the Halliburton Administration, but still think of the Democratic Party as something that might only belong in Boston and San Francisco. And if it takes tricolor bunting to do that, fine.

[Cha]

23. I say good ...it's about time we reclaimed the Flag.

I read once that one of the worst things the Liberals did in the '60's was denounce the Flag..Hell, we love our Country ..that's why we are fighting for it. To wrest it out of the facists' grip!

[Pastiche423]

27. USA! USA! USA!

[emulatorloo]

35. Repugs don't own the flag or the USA

Sick of being hit on the head by repugs that dems are anti-american.

[Pastiche423]

40. Playing by the repug rules

will not save the Democratic Party.

If you allow the repugs to define you, you become their definition.

[Sparkly]

44. Seems to me that letting them define us would be

seeing ourselves as "mirroring" them by calling ourselves patriotic Americans and waving our flag!!

We cannot let that stand.

[emulatorloo]

49. How is displaying the flag embracing the policies of the Bush Admin?

Sorry, doesn't follow.

[Lex]

36. A more thoughtful analysis from Michael Moore.

.
Michael Moore says:

I think it's time for those of us who love this country -- and everything it should stand for -- to reclaim our flag from those who would use it to crush rights and freedoms, both here at home and overseas. We need to redefine what it means to be a proud American.

[Suspicious]

51. Hmmm.

...to reclaim our flag from those who would use it to crush rights and freedoms...

I wonder what Michael Moore would have to say about the "Free Speech" corral in Boston?

[Nite Owl]

29. Very smart strategy.

It irks me to no end when I see the Repukes being the ones thought of as 'patriotic' while they sell us down the drain. It's about time we took the flag back. This is what Wes Clark kept talking about.

[Jandar]

37. Wait 'till you see the protesters penned up in the concentration camp...

you may think Bush himself will be doing some stumping.

[LibDemAlways]

109. Welcome to DU, Jandar...

Yep, that concentration camp - which will receive heavy media coverage - is really going to make Americans who are on the fence go with Kerry.

They can wrap themselves in as many flags as they want to on the convention floor, but the images of Republican protestors behind razor wire is what the undecideds will remember.

I don't care who thought it up - police, "Homeland Security" or a combination --- I know Rove is behind it, and the Dems are damned fools for going along with it.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

43. I can't believe people think this is a smart strategy!

All the anti-Naderites piss and moan about Nader saying there is no difference between the Dems and the Repubs, and what do the Dems do? They do their damndest to prove him RIGHT!

This is an INSANE idea!

It's now painfully obvious that the Dems don't want the votes of people who would vote for Nader, so the Dems now have NO EXCUSE if they lose.

[Sparkly]

46. Well, hello -- there IS one similarity

We are Americans, too.
It's our flag, too.
We don't hate our country, either.

I can't believe people have given up the flag itself as a symbol of Republicans!!

[Devils Advocate NZ]

54. Who said anything about giving up the flag?

Are you trying to say the only difference with this "you'll think it was Republican" convention will be the presence of US flags?

Have Dems never had US flags at past conventions? Or is there more to it than that?

It is obvious that there is going to be a LOT more to it than just a few extra flags. This is about the rhetoric that goes along with "you'll think it was Republican", not the window dressing.

[Sparkly]

59. "more veterans, more patriotism, more talk about protecting our country,"

You're right, it's about more than the flag.

I still don't see how these things now equal "Republican" -- they've worked to make it so, and now we need to work to take it back.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

66. "Protecting our country" - By invading others?

Patriotism is what? Cheering on the soldiers who bought you Abu Ghraib?

The point is there is NOTHING to cheer about in the US's actions over the last 4 years, and Dems HELPED a lot of it to occur. Now to act like Republicans makes it seem that the Dems support what has happened.

[Pepperbelly]

78. I think your position is dead wrong ...

and would be disasterous politically if the Democratic Convention didn't favor using fucking flags. I mean ... my God! It's a convention.

Give me a break. Take a few deep breaths. Most of us do not embrace the notion that a demonstrated affection for country = support for Bush and invading whoever.

Geez. Do also favor using black balloons rather than red, white and blue?

[Devils Advocate NZ]

89. Still taking about the window dressing?

If you look a couple of posts up this thread, you'll see I said that I wasn't talking about the flag! It is the rhetoric that accompanies the window dressing that I am concerned about, and that a senior Dem suggested would make you think it was a Republican convention.

You can keep ignoring the substance all you want, but it is clear that this time round, the Dems want to out Repub the Republicans.

An insane idea, especially if you are trying to covince people that Nader was wrong and there IS a difference between the Dems and the Repubs.

[Sparkly]

92. There is a difference but

being American, honoring veterans, touting patriotism etc. are not the sole domain of Republicans, are they?

[Devils Advocate NZ]

102. It is not what, it is how...

The Republicans act like the US military is the way to solve all problems. Is that the way the Dems are going to act too? It sure seems like it.

War is a dirty, disgusting thing, NOT something to be proud of. Sure you can honor veterans, but CHEERING them like they are the conquering school football team does nothing more than perpetuate war.

If this is NOT what the Dems are going to be doing, then they will not be acting like Republicans. What concerns me is that this is indeed what it seems like they are going to be doing.

[Pepperbelly]

100. give me a break ...

you're concern might be that but neither the concern nor the article mean that it's what will happen.

Do you object to the party applauding service to country?

Do you object to exortations to improve benefits for vets?

Do you object to Kerry asserting that he will make our nation more secure rather than less?

Do you object to Kerry claiming that he would do a far better job in disrupting the plots of those who have, from time to time, exploded shit, flew planes into buildings, that sort of thing.

What is it that YOU want?

[Devils Advocate NZ]

108. Answers:

Do you object to the party applauding service to country?

Applauding? In what way? Like they were the school football team? Like war was nothing more than a game to be won or lost? I have no problem with Dems honouring servicemen and women, but CHEERING them like their job is NOT wholesale killing is NOT honouring them.

Do you object to exortations to improve benefits for vets?

Nope, no problem with that at all. But will there be exhortations to prevent creating FUTURE vets? Will there be exhortations to prevent wars?

Do you object to Kerry asserting that he will make our nation more secure rather than less?

Nope. But HOW is he going to make it more secure? By taking away more rights? By spending MORE money on an already bloated military? By causing yet MORE wars around the globe?

It would be nice if instead of acting Republican, the Dems actually addressed the CAUSES of terrorism, including the US policies that helped bring it about. But that wouldn't be patriotic, would it?

Do you object to Kerry claiming that he would do a far better job in disrupting the plots of those who have, from time to time, exploded shit, flew planes into buildings, that sort of thing.

No objection. However, will he finally speak about how WRONG he was to help kill thousands of Iraqis - far more people than Al Qaeda has ever killed?

Or will he be Republican about that too?

[Sparkly]

120. Honoring veterans

"Like they were the school football team? Like war was nothing more than a game to be won or lost? I have no problem with Dems honouring servicemen and women, but CHEERING them like their job is NOT wholesale killing is NOT honouring them."

Okay, what is?

As for your questions, have you read the party's platform? Several are answered there.

[Sparkly]

81. So because there's a Big Mess, they should hang their heads

maybe apologize repeatedly, play only dirges, at our RALLY? That's the kind of energizing convention that's going to help us win??

Of *course* the Democrats have been complicit in this mess, but a lot of the mess is the result of the fact that the Republicans are in power and THAT has to change before anything else can.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

96. Not at all...

Where did I say that?

What I said was that this drive to be more Republican than the Republicans was an insane idea. That doesn't mean that the Dem convention has to be a funeral. What it says is that praising the US military as the means to solve all problems is only going to further alienate the very people the Dems rely on.

[Sparkly]

118. "praising the US military as the means to solve all problems"

and where did anybody say that?

[Cha]

53. We aren't going to lose...

The bushco own the fucking media...I think they're fighting fire with fire. What are they gonna say about "patriotism" from the Dems, eh?

[Devils Advocate NZ]

57. And acting like Republicans is going to change that?

OF COURSE NOT!!!!

All it will do is give ammo to that talking heads to say "See, even Dems agree that Bush has taken us down the right path - They're trying to copy him!"

Brilliant strategy.

[Sparkly]

62. What's "acting like Republicans?"

What here equals agreement with Bush?

[Devils Advocate NZ]

69. Don't ask me - ask the Dems who said...

"You're going to think it's a Republican convention".

[Sparkly]

85. Not the same thing

Doesn't mean the Democrats are "acting like Republicans."

It means the expectations have been changed to the point that Republicans have claimed patriotism, etc. That's exactly the point.

[SammyWinstonJack]

114. I get what you're saying

I have no problem with it. Bet it will piss the repubs off . And not that I care in the least, but you just know the Media Whores will find a way to spin it negatively towards us. I feel a Wellstone Memorial moment on the way.

[Cha]

63. I don't think they will be acting like republicans..that was

someone else's words. No way in hell could any match the down and dirty shit that the republicans do. They're honoring John Kerry service to his Country. It was a wrong war but he went anyway...and where was the chimp?

[Devils Advocate NZ]

73. No, it was a senior Democrat's words...

"You're going to see more veterans, more patriotism, more talk about protecting our country," said one senior Democrat who insisted on anonymity in discussing the details of the convention. "You're going to think you're looking a Republican convention."

Maybe this senior Dem is just trying to make the Dems look bad, eh?

[Cha]

153. I don't who it was...I don't think it's true.

[Kanary]

64. When we're all burned by that "fire", maybe we'll learn a lesson

[Kanary]

68. INsane, indeed!

I really wish that Nader would completely pull out of the race, so that a loss cannot be blamed on him, only complete stooooooooooooooopidity, and assininity!

You've pegged it right, but .......... saying it here is gonna get........ :nuke:

For what it's worth, I'm with ya....

Kanary

[thistle]

48. Mr. McAuliffe says"This is not going to be about attacking George Bush"

That sentence is in the same article. That means the Dems will not so much be attacking President Bush; instead, they will be trying just to be POSITIVE about our own candidate, John Kerry!

Do you guys think this is a good plan? I mean, the part about not trying to attack the president, but just being positive about Mr. Kerry?

The thing is, Mr. Bush has done a lot of bad things, right? So I'm not sure if it's smart, to leave that part out of the Democrats' speaches.

[emulatorloo]

52. Don't worry, there will be some "nasties" aimed at GWB

For example, I think you will hear the word "Halliburton" many many times.

[scarletwoman]

58. NO, I think it's a CRAPPY strategy!

Why should anyone vote Democrat if Democrats won't even stand up and oppose the fascists?

The whole Dem strategy makes me sick. If DEMS won't point out how bad things have gotten, what frikkin' good are they?

To capture the imagination of the people you need a good story. If you're not even offering a contrasting story from the other guys, what the hell are you offering?

sw

[G_j]

146. it seems that many give Dean credit for energizing

the party. But they sure seem clueless as to the how and why.

I doubt if I'll be watching beyond a few speeches by Kucinich and others.

[emulatorloo]

82. Here's a new example from Kerry Site - Briefing Book for GWB

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0724b.html

July 24, 2004


Discovering America: A Briefing Book for President George W. Bush
For Immediate Release

Washington, DC - President Bush should be just a little sharper on domestic policy now, thanks to a new briefing book the Kerry-Edwards campaign provided him today.

The book – titled ‘Discovering America’ - should prove useful as George Bush seeks a crash course on the problems facing the American people, and his advisors struggle over the question of whether or not to release a domestic agenda for his second term.

With only a short time to go before Election Day and a long list of subjects to cover, the Kerry-Edwards campaign kindly presented the book at the beginning of the President’s Crawford vacation.

[johnfunk]

160. A "briefing book" for Preznit Attenchin Decifit Bush?

ROTFLMAO -- talk about your cruel jokes. Now, a briefing comic book would be more like it...

[Pepperbelly]

88. Horseshit article ...

If you think that Teddy Kennedy isn't going to jam a thumb in Bush's eye, you're sadly mistaken. That article ...

[thistle]

98. I'm sorry - I was just telling people what the article said. It wasn't my

idea. I just wanted to know what people here thought about the Democrats' strategy. AFter all, it was Mr. Terry MacAuliffe that said this stuff.

Please don't be mad at me!

[Pepperbelly]

105. That was why I titled my post ...

'horseshit article.'

I knew it was them all along. :D

But hey ... really though ... I've sat through many conventions and I guarantee that there will be some great swings at Bush. The thin-skinned punk will be squirming in his BVDs while he kicks back in Crawford plotting evil.

Teddy will tear him a new one.

I suspect that Bill Clinton will as well. Not to mention Howard Dean. And Dennis. And Al Sharpton. And Braun. And Edwards.

And Kerry.

[mandyky]

55. When/if they play the National anthem at the convention

Maybe I will start standing again, at home, in my living room. As a veteran and a proud American, I have not done that since shrub's run up to invading Iraq.

[wicket]

60. Me too.

I want to be proud of my country's actions again.

[scarletwoman]

67. So, trading Democratic party sponsored imperialism as opposed to

Republican party imperialism will make you proud again?

I suppose it's a good enough strategy, since so many people are ready to fall for it...

sw

[Suspicious]

70. It appears that many have fallen for it, already.

I am disgusted and disappointed.

[scarletwoman]

83. Disgusted yes, disappointed no.

After 3+ years here at DU, it's already abundantly clear that only a very few are either capable of, or willing to, look deeper into the structural malaise that engulfs the politics of BOTH parties in this country.

Since my expectations are already about as low as they can go, I'm somewhat immune to disappointment.

However, I'm always VERY glad to meet up with another like-minded observer. :hi:

sw

[Suspicious]

99. "...I'm somewhat immune to disappointment"

Maybe I will reach that point, too - I'm now entering the disillusion zone. :)

However, I'm always VERY glad to meet up with another like-minded observer.

Same here! :hi:

[scarletwoman]

119. Well hey, anyone with the Dalai Lama as their avatar is alright with me!

:D

So Ha!
sw

[Suspicious]

147. : )

I sometimes wish we could clone him...

[Pastiche423]

106. It's the "win", doncha know?

It matters not what is won. It matters not that there is no opposition party.

It's the win!

Hey, don't mind me. I'm just one of those :tinfoilhat: people that wants direly needed change in my country. But I will not mirror the repugs. I will not act nationalistic. I will not cheer on imperialism. But most importantly, I will not give up the ethics and basis of the once great Democratic Party for an empty win.

Keep on sliding Dems - slide right into a one party nation.

[Suspicious]

145. I am also one of those people who desperately wants change.

It seems to me that 3+ years of Bush has so galvanized the Democratic base, the vast majority are willing to settle for anything the party hands them. Maybe that was the intention of putting the idiot in the White House, to begin with. (Talk about :tinfoilhat: !)

Unfortunately, I have to conclude that at this point, we are a one party nation - at least at the very top, where all of the decisions are made.

[emulatorloo]

87. Um, displaying the flag is not the same thing as Repuplican PtyImperialism

Sorry, that just doesn't follow. . .

[scarletwoman]

107. Oh really? Whose frame is operational here?

All the flag-waving "patriotism" is nothing but a fascist disguise for U.S. imperialist ambitions, necessitated by our voracious appetite for consuming 25% of the planet's resources while being only 5% of the planet's population.

The corporate-fascists wave the flag to cover up their crimes against humanity. How is it any better to do the same damn thing when there is no clear policy being enunciated to do any differently?

sw

[emulatorloo]

173. Sorry, doesn't follow : A flag is a piece of cloth, is not a machine gun

Waving a flag is different than waving a machine gun.

A flag is a piece of cloth that is a symbol.

Just because repugs have used it to symbolize "US imperialist ambitions" doesn't mean that the flag inherently means that.

It meant a lot of good things before the repugs misappropriated it.

It still means those things.

ON EDIT Spelling

[wicket]

167. You have no idea

There is NOTHING wrong with loving my country and wanting to change it. The flag to me represents all the good this country can achieve. I'm sorry you feel that way, but it's not my problem. Bitterness eats from the inside out.

[blm]

61. The GOP has used images FRAUDULENTLY for decades.

They do it to snooker the public and mask their antimiddle class and antipoor agendas.


Kerry uses patriotic symbolism LEGITIMATELY. Big difference.

[loudsue]

71. I am a hard-line, populist Democrat -- AND I LOVE MY COUNTRY!!

I love my flag! I love my Constitution and Bill of Rights! I love my Homeland! I love my Democratic form of government!!! All those traditional "symbols" of what I love are true reflections of EXACTLY why I'm a Democrat!!

It's the symbols, themselves, that have been desecrated by the republican party....NOT by the traditional Democrats!!!

THE FLAG BELONGS TO THE DEMOCRATS!!!

NOT to the republicans! They have trashed everything it stands for, and it's about time we took it back.

I 100% support what the convention is doing on this issue. WE are the ones who stand for Democracy, instead of corporatism/oligarchy. WE are the ones who stand for Patriotism, in all of its forms. WE are the ones who represent the will of the people that congregate under that flag....NOT the repukes.

It's a first step to give our citizens back the country we have fought for, worked for, and lived for. THIS is the party that has EARNED THE RIGHT to carry the flag!

It's the OTHER party that has tried, in every conceivable way, to destroy our rights.... stealing our votes, stealing our air-waves, stealing our jobs, stealing our privacy, stealing all of our rights.

GOOD ON KERRY!!!!! HE'S OFF TO A GOOD START!!!!

:kick::kick::kick:

[Kanary]

77. Enjoy your war..........

Rah.

Rah.

Rah.

[Pepperbelly]

91. non sequiturs now? nt

[Kanary]

94. Same crap as been handed to us, over and over and over and over

"So, you're voting for Bush?"

If the shoe fits.........

Kanary

[Pepperbelly]

103. I think you'e jumping to conclusions based on ...

pretty sparse evidence but hey ... if you need the exercise, jump away.

[ClassWarrior]

131. Are you okay Kanary?

Who says people who respect the flag support the war?

[mzmolly]

74. Good, take back the flag, our country and the White House in 2004!

:toast:

I think the thread could be stated in an inflamatory manner though?

[Kanary]

75. The donkeys have been following in the footsteps of elephants

for over 2 decades now, and it's working SOOOOOOO *WELL* for us........

:crazy:

This may well be the last hurrah of this party......

:hi:

Kanary

[loudsue]

93. So, let me guess, Kanary....

You'd rather the Dems BURN the flag at the convention??

You'd prefer if the Dems have encounter groups to thrash themselves over how bad the republicans have treated us? (Yep! That'll impress a lot of people.)

You'd rather the Dems turn the convention into a mob-like anti-war protest? Yelling angry slogans, and burning effigies of bush/cheney?

You'd rather they TRASH the vets for ever having gone to war?

Just how do you see this "last hurrah" of this party?

I'm anticipating what kind of an election-winning strategy you can come up with to show the good people of the USA!

:kick:

[Kanary]

113. Sure......... that's *EXACTLY* what I said.......

:crazy:

[teamster633]

150. I recall Jimmy Carter had real success...

...with his honest discussion of America's moral malaise. If you consider ushering in the Reagan era a success.

[RoyGBiv]

111. Winning Tactics

Adopting winning tactics is smart. Where the Democrats have performed poorly for so long is in allowing Republicans to corner the market on patriotism and instilling positive feelings about America. What kills liberals on the national stage is the association, false as it may be, between criticizing Republican policies and being negative about the country.

It was, perhaps, a bit dumb to go right out and say what that spokesman said. It sort of defeats the purpose of adopting an enemy's tactics for one's own purposes ... gives the opposition too much opporuntity to point out how what the Dems are doing. But, the idea itself is just pretty smart.

[Kanary]

115. Yup, we've been schmardt for over two decades now....

Notice how well we're doing?

[RoyGBiv]

117. This isn't really cute...

If you have a point, make it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. The Al Davis Strategy

"Just win baby"....

[proud patriot]

104. great to hear it

:D

[CaTeacher]

110. YICK!!! To me that "rally around the flag"

garbage is directed at the very most mindless of the sheeple. And they already belong to Bush.

I want us to concentrate on our platform--our ideas for the future!

not ignorant flag waving.

[proud patriot]

123. Well I am a Patriot who Flys Old Glory in opposition to bush

Most freeper types drive around with torn up and
faded flags they let them get all ratty it's a disgrace .

You can tell a Democrat with they way they honor the flag .

Dems know what it means to be a patriot
beyond waving flags .

But you shouldn't let the Radical Right define what it
means to be a patriot . Define it for yourself and
fly that flag proudly .

[depakid]

122. "said one senior Democrat who insisted on anonymity"

The Times certainly has a good track record with anonymous sources these days, don't they?

Personally, I'm going to wait and see- if the Democrats are profoundly STUPID enough to run as Republican lite (again)- if they don't draw sharp contrasts between themselves and the Republicans, particularly with respect to domestic policy, then they're dooming themselves to failure, if not in the presendential election, then in the congressional races- which really will make all the difference in whether Kerry can be even a modestly successful president.

[Columbia]

125. Idiotic

What about JOBS, HEALTHCARE, and EDUCATION???

That's what people really care about.

If Kerry keeps on emphasizing WAR and NATIONAL DEFENSE then he will lose because people ALWAYS associate those as a GOP issue and will vote for Bush as a result.

Democratic Party
R.I.P.
1793-2004

[Pastiche423]

126. An excellent point

[Media_Lies_Daily]

127. Have you read the Democratic Platform yet?....

Based on your post, I suspect the answer is a pretty resounding "no".

[Columbia]

129. It doesn't matter what the "platform" is

It matters what people see and hear as being emphasized. And going on what this "spokesman" said and the Kerry soundbites being aired, it is not looking good.

[rumguy]

133. Oh Bullshit! We still believe in those things.

We're going to take away the one phony issue the Repigs cling to - patriotism. There brand of patriotism is a mile wide and an inch deep.

We take that away from them - it's fucking over.

[Columbia]

152. We don't need to take it

We just need to emphasize what people trust us with and what they care about most. If we try to out "rah! rah! rah! USA! USA! USA!" the GOP we will lose. Period.

[rumguy]

132. GOOD! We're going to show the repigs what real patriotism is...

It's high time we did this. The phony false flag suckin' of the repig party is going to be exposed.

No more slashing vetrans' benefits!

No more treating soldiers like an expendable resource!

I can't fuckin' wait.

[rumguy]

134. I can't believe all the critcs on this thread.

You fell for the bait, didn't ya?

I'm laughing in your collective faces right now!

[progressivebydesign]

135. I guess we're supposed to be upset that it will be that way?

Who died and left the Republicans the American flag? What's wrong with patriotism and honoring of our veterans??? I don't hate America.. why would I be upset if we celebrate it? I've been liberal since I was in Jr. High school, and knew what it was all about.. And it's always bugged me that the Democrats are seen as America-haters, and anti-patriotic. I say.. bring on the Stars n' Stripes. I want to end the GOP's hypocritical ownership of every American's birthright.

[Zen Democrat]

140. This is a 4-day campaign commercial for the undecideds

And I think it's brilliant. Remember in 2000 when the Republican put black and latinos all over the stage -- and it worked. Mainstream undecideds believed it was okay to vote for these guys.

This year we need to go after the mainstream voters who are only with Bush for the rah-rah patriotism. They are hearing that Democrats aren't REAL Americans. Sure they are idiots. But we need to wake them up and say ... Look, folks, we can sing God Bless America, too ... and our guy is a decorated war veteran.

It's smart. It's vote-getting time.

[OKNancy]

148. And Kerry

is smart! I am sure he and his people are guiding this. It's time for us to be the smart ones.

[depakid]

154. If this approach is so "smart"

then why did it fail miserably in 2002?

I'm hoping that the Kerry camp isn't so full of Clintonites that they're blinded to the last (several) elections....

[Sparkly]

156. I disagree that this caused 2002 failures

I think the success of the GOP in painting Democrats as 'weak, unpatriotic, blame-America-first peacenik appeasers who can't be trusted in the post-9/11 world to keep us safe from scary Arabs' (while Republicans are 'strong, decisive miliary hero leaders who give pride in America and who will defend and protect us') is what cost us in 2002.

And it's not anything new -- this is a stereotype that they've been hammering at *least* since Vietnam. Now is the time to turn it around and show that unnecessary war is NOT strength, and the GOP is NOT the party of pride, patriotism, veterans, honor, or national security -- and they do not own the flag.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

149. Another 'anonymous' source

and look at all the DUers who rise to the bait.

[fujiyama]

151. I'm sort of tired

of Ra Ra flag waving, but if this is what it takes to convince moderates that democrats do embody the values they care about, I don't have a problem. The flag doesn't belong to RWers anyways. It belongs to the people of this country, and democrats represent all people.

I do think that the guy they interviewd sounds like a moron. His statement plays into the RWers hands. Why is it a republican type thing to see veterans, patriotism, and talk about protecting the country? This kind of thing has to be done discreetly. People need to recognize that Kerry DID serve (some don't really believe it still), as opposed to Bush's non service, and that Bush's policies have NOT protected America.

Service and honor are not republican or RW values in any way. These values, combined with the belief that a strong safety net and a government that is willing to help when it is needed, should be stressed.

The convention is usually a way to get people to learn and actually SUPPORT your candidate, rather than a forum to bash the opposing candidate. A positive convention is a good idea as long as the values mentioned above are highlighted.

I think some Naderite types wouldn't be happy until the convention is a combination of an anti war rally and a gay pride parade.

[Warren DeMontague]

157. You Mean Thousands of White, Middle-Aged Men Looking Bored

While a rap act plays on stage in between token minorities trotted out in a display of "diversity"?

Or, maybe that means that this year's Dem convention will be convocated to "Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ".. Like the last GOP convention was.. (Before they flipped the diversity breaker).

[Sparkly]

159. Which convention are you talking about?

Surely you mean the GOP's. Have you seen the roster of speakers for ours?

You want to tell Elijah Cummings, Barack Obama, Carol Moseley-Braun and Eleanor Holmes Norton they're just "token minorities" being "trotted out" by the Democrats?

You want to tell the women they're "minorities" at *all?*

I don't think you do. ;)

[zwielicht]

161. I hesitated to post my honest opinion here, but hey

Don't get me wrong, i love DU, and understand there is dems loyality - by definition, that's fine - It's so great to share common ideas with more than 50.000 people here, and even more who just read, ... But i was born in austria, so maybe you understand why i am really offended by blind patriotism, and blind loyality. Isn't standing up for truly liberal views, objecting any form of blind conformity, more important than "We win"? (Which may be globally, existentially important this time, ok.)

If i look at politician's ads like the ones at dailykos, or when i watched the bringing down of dean or the 'not letting up' of kucinich, i think real hope is thrown away all of the time, AND that there is a real possibility of "saving the world" by democratic means (sorry for pathetic naivity) - and this has to happen fast! And i'm afraid arms & flags are not the way to do it.

[Nikki Stone 1]

162. Coming from Europe, you know "blind patriotism's" evil results

Hitler certainly taught everyone how blind nationalism and uninformed national chauvinism can lead to destructive ends.

However, I do not believe that a reasonable love of country is a flaw or necessarily leads to evil. One is born in a particular nation and has a sense of belonging to it. One also would like that nation to stand for THE BEST of its citizens' ideals. The corporate power structure and their Republican lackeys have co-opted the symbols of America--like the flag--and have made them into a tool for their own use.

I, like others on this board, do love my country and want to see the Stars and Stripes represent a better set of ideals than laissez-faire capitalism and "preemptive" strikes.

[zwielicht]

163. I'm nearly jealous of people who can still

accommodate the concept of some "country" with their love for the place they are from and the people there, and i respect that feeling.

i'm not trying to be offensive here, and the stars and stripes sure for many still is a symbol for positive values, maybe more than any other flag in the world - and you've got reasons for that. But sorry, in a global sense (if you care about that, too), it will not be one again in the near future. It could become one, if you really can defeat agressive corporate control over people's essential needs waving an american flag - sorry, and this won't even sound ironic for non-americans then ;)

uh-oh, i'm afraid i'm getting too honest today :)

[Nikki Stone 1]

164. I fully understand and appreciate the international view of the flag

and that the Stars and Stripes has come to stand for things that many of us in this country do not at all support.

Most Americans do not understand why the USA is hated in many places in the world. The first question after 9/11 was "Why do they hate us?" And perhaps these Americans--overworked, underpaid and not up on the latest activities of the government they have elected in good faith--haven't a clue about what is being done in their name.

Those of us who do know--and who talk about it--are accused overtly of hating our country. We have a pleasant little fellow (sarcasm) named David Horowitz who runs around yelling that the Left hates America.

It is my contention that the real people who don't care about their country are those who don't bother to see how it is being coopted. These are the uninformed--the blind flag wavers.

Those of us who really love our country want to cut out the cancer that has coopted our institutions and our voice.

And we want our flag back.

[John_H]

165. how many idots does it take to feed a troll?

164 so far.

[depakid]

168. Even Trolls can cite sources

In this case, the NY Times (which depite its several mea culpas, still seems to publish this kind of stuff).

I suppose we'll just have to wait to see whether it's much ado about nothing.

[Nikki Stone 1]

169. And interesting discussions can ensue, even if started by trolls n/t

n/t

[leesa]

166. Figures. Gotta make the RW happy...forget your own base

[against all enemies]

171. Words out of context

and everybody reacts as if it's the whole story. what a sorry bunch of DUers. How about one big difference, people of color at the Repub convention are on stage, and at he Dem Convention, they're watching the stage. What a set up and you guys fall for it.

[latebloomer]

172. "a heavy emphasis on Kerry's service in Vietnam"

He came back PROTESTING the war! He threw his medals away! He said we were committing WAR CRIMES!!

But now it's ALL GOOD.

:puke: