Was bush dishonorably discharched because of drugs?

[Fuzz]

Sorry for starting another thread, but I think this is something important I may have stumbled upon.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/10-3_2000_Personnel_File.pdf

Page 24 shows that a DD form 258AF was issued to Bush.

According to:

http://dont.stanford.edu/regulations/regulation27.pdf


Section 13-31

"13-31. Types of separations. a. Au individual
separated by reason of unfitness will be furnished
an undesirable discharge certificate (DD Form
258A), except that an honorable (DD Form 256A)
or general (DD Form 257A) discharge certificate
may be awarded if the individual has been awarded
a personal decoration or if warranted by the particular
circumstances in a given case. When the
sole reason for separation is drug abuse as specified
in paragraph 13-5a( 3) (b), the individual will be
furnished an honorable or general discharge certificate
as warranted by the particular circumstances
in a given case. The type of discharge will
be directed by the convening authority."


And paragraph 13-5a states

13-5. Applicability. An individual is subject to
separation under this chapter when one or more
of the following conditions exist :
a. Unfitness.
(1) Frequent incidents of a discreditable
nature with civil or military authorities.
(2) Sexual perversion, including but not limited
to-
(a) Lewd and lascivious acts.
(b) Indecent exposure.
(c) Indecent acts with or assault upon a
child.
(d) Other indecent acts or offenses.
(3) Drug abuse, defined as-
(a) Drug dependence, or the unauthorized
use, sale, possession, or transfer of any controlled
substance as defined in AR 600-50, or the introduction of such controlled substance onto any Army installation or other Government property under Army jurisdiction.



This could be big. Not sure if 258A and 258AF are the same form though, but worth looking into.

[jpgray]

1. It's not at all clear that it reads '258' or '256'

256AF, I believe, is a standard form for an honorable discharge for the TANG, correct? So until we have a definitive read on the numbers, I'll wait this one out. What I want is someone to find the judge, jury and evidence from his cocaine troubles in the seventies.

[DrBB]

2. And the document SAYS "honorable discharge"

...just above where that disputed number appears. Read the thing. It says "honorable." I don't think that settles the question of the Chimp's service record, but this particular issue ain't goin nowhere.

Mein gott this one is just proliferating like wildfire.

[Sparkly]

3. This is a dupe, but

Please read other threads on this... In one, RoadRunner listed this source, showing that there was an honorable discharge that was "undesirable" due to drug use:

http://dont.stanford.edu/regulations/regulation27.pdf

My jury is still out.

[DrBB]

5. Yeah, I saw that too.

Hard to keep up when there are multiple threads going. There's one on LBN too, wh/is where I saw this first.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

8. Yeah, but I thought the drug use thing...

Came from the incorrect reading of the number. It looks like a '6' to me, and I saw it before I knew what a 256 or 258 or whatever actually meant. I'm half decent with typefaces. It looks like 6 to me.

[Fuzz]

9. Sorry to be picky, but it wasn't roadrunner on that thread

'twas me. :)

[RoadRunner]

11. It was Fuzz, I just copied from his post. n/t

[Sparkly]

12. Sorry!!

See more apologies below and on other threads.

My mistake.

[Sparkly]

10. Oops, that was Fuzz, sorry!

My bad, Fuzz.

[stepnw1f]

4. Ach Du Liebe!!!

Selbverständlich...x(

[CatWoman]

6. I'm wondering -- can an "undesriable" discharge

still meet the "honorable" criteria?

A military discharge is given when a member of the armed forces is released from their obligation to serve.

An honorable discharge can occur for several reasons:

* the contracted period of service is finished;
* an order of a superior or military court decides the term of service is over;
* the conflict is finished and the military unit is disbanding;
* being passed up twice in a row for promotion when eligible, though this may vary by branch of service;
* certain other circumstances, including (in some countries) homosexuality, though in the United States this was replaced by the "don't ask, don't tell" policy in 1993.

A medical discharge is given when the service member has a medical condition that makes them unfit for military service. This maybe an injury sustained in combat.

A less than honorable discharge refers to a discharge that occurs under other than honorable conditions. This can be due to generally improper conduct, conviction of a crime either in a military court martial or a civilian court, or some other inappropriate action on the part of a soldier or someone associated with that soldier.

The United States military subdivides less-than-honorable discharges into four categories, in increasing order of severity:

* general discharge;
* undesirable discharge;
* bad conduct discharge; and
* dishonorable discharge.

Undesirable discharges or worse disqualify the soldier from receiving veterans' benefits under most circumstances, and any less-than-honorable discharge - even a general discharge - usually renders the discharged soldier ineligible for unemployment insurance benefits, because such a discharge is considered tantamount to having been "fired" from the most recently-held job.

In addition, those given dishonorable discharges permanently forfeit certain citizenship rights, including the right to vote or legally possess a firearm in certain states. According to the government, there is no way for one to lose citizenship as such by any means, aside from voluntarily, and there is no federal law barring discharged soldiers from voting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_discharge

[RoadRunner]

7. This was posted by Fuzz in another thread

"When the sole reason for separation is drug abuse as specified
in paragraph 13-5a( 3) (b), the individual will be
furnished an honorable or general discharge certificate
as warranted by the particular circumstances
in a given case. The type of discharge will
be directed by the convening authority."

[Sparkly]

13. And

"(b) Use or possession for one's own use of controlled substances, or dependence thereon, elicited as a result of an individual's volunteering for treatement or being identified by progammed biochemical testing, if the sole basis for separation. In such cases, separation will be under honorable conditions as specified in paragraph 13-31 a."

[Lex]

15. You can get an "honorable discharge" in the subcategory "undesirable"

for having, using, or being dependent on drugs?

Hmmmm . . . sounds exactly like what Bush* would've gotten.

[Sparkly]

16. No, I think the 'undesirable' is separate from 'honorable'

but don't ask me!

[RebelYell]

14. I want to know

why this didn't come out BEFORE he ran for Prez....don't nominees automatically release these types of records?

[yardwork]

17. His records were scrubbed and secreted in his dad's presidential library

before he ran for president.

Dean talks about this in his book, Worse than Watergate.

Shrub and Chainsaw Crashcart got away with hiding their records and refusing to disclose information because the press let them get away with it. Dean says it was unprecedented in modern history to have candidates hide this much information.

The press was still obsessing over Clinton's penis.

[Moderator]

18. Duplicate

Continue here -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2058473