Many of you still don't get it about the death of democracy

[Q]

- Every day on DU I see threads and posts with a message of shock and disbelief about how the free press is giving a different version of the truth or about Bush* doing something blatantly unConstitutional or about Congress running a whitewash commission.

- The question is: why are you still surprised?

- A democracy can't survive intact after widespread civil rights abuses and a stolen election given a pass by both parties and the free press. It can't survive an unexamined attack on our country or aggressive war and occupation based on lies and covered up by both parties and the free press.

- Yet...many of you still act surprised and become incensed at the now common occurrence of your government and free press lying to you.

- The United States is no longer a 'Democracy'. It's time you accepted that reality and work towards restoring a government of, by and for the people.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

1. What should we do?

[Q]

3. It would be a good start...

...not to accept lies or deceit from EITHER party. How can we preach and lecture the 'other side' about their behavior when we've joined them in the 'grand illusion'?

- We can't move forward until we've accepted the truth about the past.

- 2000 wasn't a 'close election'. 9-11 wasn't about incompetence. The Iraq 'war' was/is illegal and unnecessary.

- We must adopt new standards of ethics: tell the truth and let the people decide.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

6. Thats sounds good and i do all those things. How 'bout something more

concrete?

[Q]

19. You want concrete?

- YOU are already there. I'm pointing at those who think we can 'wait' for a more opportune time to demand the truth.

- Now is the time NOT to 'move on'. We were told to 'get over' a stolen election. We were called 'crazies' for questioning the official story of 9-11 and aggressive war. And once Kerry gets in office...we'll be told to 'shut up' or we'll endanger his chances to stay in office for eight years.

- At some point we have to find the courage to say: enough!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

20. Ok - "enough" now what

seriously - I hear what you are saying and I've been to the protests and will continue - but how about some real actions?

[TeacherCreature]

30. support candidates who also tell the truth

This year we are all voting for Kerry. In the future, don't fall for "electable", insist on authentic and honest.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

33. Now you're talkin' - I agree 100%

I voted for Kucinich, btw

[Arianrhod]

65. And I for Dean. n/t

[merh]

24. How about we get Dems in the WH and then go from

there? Got to get * out first - you are the impatient one. We all accept what you say only practical way to do as you demand is to get * out. The collective conscious of everyone on DU cannot do that. Unfortunately, it takes getting folks who are not as well informed as you and others on this board. Folks find safety in believing in the country and cannot conceive that the man in office has done what we know he has done. Thus you have to not alienate them to get their vote.

You need to be practical - baby steps before giant strides.

[ClassWarrior]

21. Something concrete?

In "What Liberal Media?," Eric Alterman calls it "working the refs." We need to work the refs - we need to call, write, and email the press for every single offense, large or small. We need to change the way they think about things. We need to repeat certain key phrases over and over and over again so that these phrases become a part of the way these so-called journalists think. Remember "Corporate Welfare?" That was one of ours. We repeated it enough for it to get into the lexicon. But we seemed to have dropped it lately. We can't stop. We can't let up. We have to fight - and believe me, I'm ready to fight.

Watch this clip for a discussion of how language can re-frame the debate to our advantage:

http://news.globalfreepress.com/movs/wonk/NOW/NOW.07.23.04.GeorgeLakoff.vp3

The original post where I found this is here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2045283#2053772

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

38. There you go - AWESOME

Thanks classwarrior :toast:

[ClassWarrior]

41. My pleasure CST.

:toast:

[SheilaT]

8. Tell the truth and let the people decide

sounds good, except isn't that what Fox "news" claims it does?

[ClassWarrior]

23. Telling the truth and letting the facts set us free don't work.

Pick up "What's The Matter With Kansas" by Thomas Frank. I've just started reading it, but it's an awesome analysis of how the RW keeps winning over the people they're screwing.

[LunaC]

77. Saw him on C-Span

and he was AWESOME! I was wracking my brain this morning for his name so THANK YOU for bringing it up. I'm going to buy his book now.......

Blurb from Amazon.com:

With his acclaimed wit and acuity, Thomas Frank turns his eye on what he calls the “thirty-year backlash”—the populist revolt against a
supposedly liberal establishment. The high point of that backlash is the Republican Party’s success in building the most unnatural of
alliances: between blue-collar Midwesterners and Wall Street business interests, workers and bosses, populists and right-wingers.

In asking “what ’s the matter with Kansas?”—how a place famous for its radicalism became one of the most conservative states in the
union—Frank, a native Kansan and onetime Republican, seeks to answer some broader American riddles: Why do so many of us vote
against our economic interests? Where’s the outrage at corporate manipulators? And whatever happened to middle-American
progressivism? The questions are urgent as well as provocative. Frank answers them by examining pop conservatism—the bestsellers,
the radio talk shows, the vicious political combat—and showing how our long culture wars have left us with an electorate far more
concerned with their leaders’ “values” and down-home qualities than with their stands on hard questions of policy.

A brilliant analysis—and funny to boot—What’s the Matter with Kansas? presents a critical assessment of who we are, while telling a
remarkable story of how a group of frat boys, lawyers, and CEOs came to convince a nation that they spoke on behalf of the People.


Honestly, folks, this guy nailed it!

[bryant69]

10. Tell the truth

What if I think the truth is that 9-11 was about incompetance? What if I have looked at the various LIHOP and MIHOP theories and decided they are not credible?

Anyway if things are as bad as you say, why bother doing anything? Doesn't it strike you that if they are that evil and that skilled, that our little rebellions are completely useless?

Fortunately I don't believe our enemies are possessed of some kind of supernaturally powerful evil; rather I believe they are posessed of just the normal variety of evil, and once we get rid of President Bush and intall President Kerry things will be considerably better. Still be a lot of work to do after that; but things will be better.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Q]

12. You can 'think' anything you want about 9-11...

...but the TRUTH is that the attack has never been fully examined...the difficult questions never asked.

- Why bother doing anything? Because this country was founded on revolution...the idea that a government CAN BE formed by the consent of the people.

- That you even bring up the term 'suernaturally powerful evil' tells me that you don't understand the problem. There's nothing 'supernatural' about a political party controlling a majority of the media or using extortion and intimidation to wrestle control of a government.

- Part of the 'illusion' is that you and many others believe that 'things will get better' if a Democrat takes office. Pardon me...but that sounds pretty naive considering the Clinton years, Gore's exile and that the RWing Smear Machine grows ever stronger.

[bryant69]

25. So you advocate revolution?

I notice you are pretty good about making disheartening statements about our chances to get Kerry elected. I presume you'd have us all form revolutionary cells and prepare to take up arms against our fellow citizens? Or are you not willing to go that far?

Personally, I don't think that Kerry will be perfect; but I know he'll be better than what we have now. I don't think it's very responsible to pull the old Nader trick of telling us that there is no difference between Bush and Kerry.

But that's just me.

[ClassWarrior]

31. I've noticed that. The only concrete thing that Q has to offer...

...is criticism. Screw it. Let's get fighting. This election is going to be fun.

[G_j]

28. language and myths

just a quick rant..


also, I continually am dismayed when we as "progressives" or "liberals" forget to apply critical thinking to certain terms and also to certain myths before repeating them.

For example, over and over I see the term "far left" being used to marginalize certain view points. Can't people see that this sort of mantra is exactly how the RW has effectively used the "L-Word" repetition to smother intelligent discussion?
In the same way WE crippled Kucinich's chances by repeating the "unelectable" mantra without sufficiant critical thought.

A few other pet peeves for me have been the way "purist" and "bashing" get uncritically thrown around. Repeating easy nebulous phrases in discussion is not constructive. This is what Rush & the like do with terms like "Hate America First" "Bush Haters" etc.

I have some pet peeves in terms of repeated myths also. Most of these originated with the RW and we too often uncritically pass them on. Stuff such as the "hippies" in Chicago got Nixon elected (google: "Kissinger" and "October Surprise" for deeper insight)
Or, the "Anarchists always create violence at protests" (evidence does not support this)

Another, "the anti-war people spat on the Nam Vets and made their lives hell on returning home" (again very little evidence, and it totally neglects the blaring fact that it was the government that betrayed and neglected the Vets at every turn.)

These are a few examples, of course there are more.

There are very few things I find as discouraging as hearing people of good will and intention repeating RW talking points.
It all boils down to critical thinking, something which is endangered in our culture in general.

-end of rant, & thanks for another compelling post Q.

:-)

[Kanary]

44. yes, sometimes we have to look at ourselves first, and see reflections

What you're saying about the current state of the party is spot on. But, there isn't much of a mood to be introspective.

It's all about WINNING. Never mind at what cost.

Oh, and you left out...... "You're either with us or against us". Wonder where that nice DU phrase came from........?

What's interesting is all the anger expended to create "unity" is causing the divides.... Kinda like the "uniter not a divider"...... funny how that works.....

Kanary

[Arianrhod]

67. Why are we even still using the terms "Right" and "Left"?

These are charged words whose nuances have been stewing in the collective social conscious for thousands of years. Their very origin works against us--"left" is our translation of the Latin "sinister", whereas "right" automatically brings up connotations of moral clarity and virtue. Personally, I've quit using the terms altogether. I now refer to the ideas we espouse as "progressive", and to the other side only as "Republicans". They are not "right"--not in any way, shape or form--and I refuse to give them that honored title.

Words are power.

[Kanary]

35. Agreed. BUT *say* those things, outloud, on DU

and the response is "So, you think * is better?" "So, you're voting for *?" etc etc etc

Who needs us lousy libruls, anyway......

Yes, the DEMs are complicit.

But it's cheerleader time.....

Kanary

[ClassWarrior]

45. Bull.

I, for one, agree with everything in that post. I don't believe that we should let up on the Dems for one second. But I don't think we need to self-destruct to do it. What good will THAT do? To paraphrase Michael Moore, we have an election to win, but on November 3rd, I'm going after Kerry.

[Kanary]

47. Thank you for proving the point.

And a good morning to you, too, mr bull

[ClassWarrior]

48. Proving WHAT point?

I agree that we need to hold the Dems accountable.

I'm just saying we need to elevate our discussion amongst ourselves. WE'RE NOT THE ENEMY. THEY ARE.

And I might add that I have a problem with people constantly offering JUST CRITICISM without anything concrete, to paraphrase CST above. It seems like, time and time again, criticism is all Q has to offer. Let's channel those frustrations into something productive.

[Q]

55. It's called dialogue and public debate...

...not 'self-destruction'.

- If we don't or can't discuss what's happening to our government and America...then we have no way of finding solutions.

- We KNOW what we have to do in November. But how many of us are aware of what has to be done after that?

- Let's talk about the future of the Democratic party and America.

[ClassWarrior]

58. GREAT!

Then let's set the criticism and hyperbole aside and discuss. You start...

[ClassWarrior]

60. I thought you want dialogue and debate.

?

[Q]

79. I have to earn a living...

...and will check back from time to time.

- Although it's entertaining...it doesn't do much good for the 'debate' to be limited to DUers. Much of the public debate was closed down by the 'right half' of the Democratic party...anxious to give a good impression to 'undecided' voters. (all twelve of them).

- It doesn't help that dissent has been effectively silenced within the party. Against the illegal war? Then you MUST be a Nader supporter or a disruptor and deserve to be put in a 'free speech' pen so no one can hear you but other 'radicals'.

- It's difficult to debate when so many have already made up their mind not to rock the boat or become a target for the Bush* Smear Machine by saying bad, but true things about him and his government.

[porphyrian]

5. First Major Goal - Get Kerry Elected

Vote. Register people to vote. This should not be a close election.

[Q]

13. Voting for Kerry is a baby step...

...and has little to do with the 'solution' of an accountable government.

- The institution of government itself is essentially corrupt. Corporations outright OWN politicians and it has become 'acceptable' to trade favors for legislation and laws.

- The RWingers have devoted the last two decades in perverting democracy and the free press. They have their cronies and 'operatives' in every level of state and federal government. Simply changing presidents will do nothing to alter THIS reality.

- Of course it 'should not' be a close election. But it will be. Why? Because Americans are still laboring under the illusion that democracy and justice are intact and will 'save the day' at the last moment.

[porphyrian]

22. When given the choice...

...of eating a whole shit sandwich or just a bite, I'll take the bite. You are absolutely correct, though, that electing Kerry is a baby step, that corporations own our government and that fascists have infiltrated every level of our government. The purpose of this election is not to change all of the problems with our government, just to stop the current administration from doing any more damage and to give disenfranchised voters a chance to realize that they can make a change, that they do have influence, that what they think does count.

[ClassWarrior]

32. Yes - register people to vote!

I'm a voter registrar in 4 communities near me.

[AvedonCarol]

2. We're still shocked because we can't believe they're so obvious.

Besides, if we let ourselves stop being surprised, we stop documenting it, and we need to keep documenting it and analysing it.

I've been writing about this subject for years, but I intend to keep being shocked. When people cross the line, I'm shocked. When people are blatantly dishonest, I'm shocked. When people lie and steal and distort and smear, I am shocked.

And I want every one to stay shocked all the way to the ballot box.

And then I want them to go home and stay shocked and keep writing (polite, well-written) letters to the press and to their reps and don't let up - no matter who wins this election or any others.

[Q]

4. Good point: Americans don't understand about 'shock troops'...

...and fascism in general. That they do it right out in the open...without any sense of guilt or conscience...shocks people into silence.

- Stay shocked and surprised...but don't accept that WE have to join with the fascists in order to 'win'.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

7. Any one whose been to a large protest knows about that.

Everyone should experience it first hand. Its definately shocking

[Norquist Nemesis]

9. Well said! and...

welcome to DU! :hi:

I really like your blog btw. :) :bounce:

[Minstrel Boy]

11. The United State of Denial.

After Selection 2000, the Great American Myth should have shattered. That it still holds millions hypnotized demonstrates the power and the comfort of the democratic illusion.

I can't believe how many say "If they steal another one, then...." How many elections need to be stolen before someone does something?

[Q]

14. And then our 'government' adds insult to injury...

...by 'relocating' dissenters into pens and cages when they can't be heard or seen.

- Democrats MUST separate themselves from this illusion. It's up to us to expose the 'man behind the curtain' and set things right. Who else will do it? The RWing fascists? The Neocons? The DLC?

[Cocoa]

15. cynicism is Bush's lifeblood

it's at the absolute center of Rove's strategy, you can see it in every move he makes.

Confused, either-or thinking, hyperbole, half-truths, cherry-picked "facts", anti-intellectualism, sloppy, dishonest arguments, they're all good friends of Bush.

One goal they have in mind: discourage people from participating.

[Q]

16. And some of us are ENCOURAGING people to participate...

...but discouraging them from succumbing to the pressure to CONFORM like mindless clones.

- But let's not fool ourselves: the 'Rove strategy' has been very successful. Many if not most Americans actually believe that 2000 was a close race. They believe that 9-11 has been fully investigated. They believe that the Iraq shock and awe was necessary for the defense of the US.

- How are we to break through these illusions when both parties insist that they're true?

[Cocoa]

17. nah

the dishonest drumbeat has no note of constructiveness. It's all nihilism, defeatism, and alarmism.

[Q]

27. Not at all: it's called being FOREWARNED and AWARE...

- I'm simply amazed that there are people like you that refuse to accept what's right before their eyes. From your posts...you're obviously a good person and well-read. But you come off sounding like an apologist for a failed system.

- This is exactly why so many Democrats and 'lefties' are disgusted by the DLC and their appeasement of everything rotten about Bush's* America.

[hunter]

53. "Disourage people from participating..."

I think it's worse than that. So many people don't have a sense of ownership about their own government. They act as if we the citizens of the United States are merely some kind of employee of this corporate nation.

They see Bush, (and especially Reagan!!!) as some kind of boss. They can't wrap their minds around the notion that we can "fire" a boss, and that it is within our rights to evaluate and question, and if need be, legally obstruct and hinder everything a President does.

George W. Bush works for me. If I was the only boss here in the United States I would fire his ass and bring him up on charges. In a just world I believe George W. Bush would be in prison. Since I'm not the only boss here, I will do everything I can to convince my fellow bosses, the U.S. voters, that George W. Bush is not competent to be President, and I will do everything I can legally do to obstruct and hinder George W. Bush from handing control of this nation over to his corporate masters.

We need to get out in public and convince the "average voter" that George W. Bush does not have their interests at heart, and we need to remind the average voter that this nation belongs to them, "We the People..."

[Q]

18. Why are there protestors at the Dem convention?

- Because they/we still have hope. We know that Democracy is and always has been an 'experiment'. We also know that free speech and democracy isn't 'free'. You have to WORK FOR IT or it fades away from neglect.

- We can't wait until AFTER the convention or the election to protest and challenge the few powerful men who have taken control of our democracy and turned it to shit.

[Caution]

26. gee thanks for pointing that out

now, how about making some suggestions?

What would you recommend?

If what you say is true, than insurrection is really the only possibility for the future. Shall we all convince our neighbors to take to the streets? Might be a little hard these days since obviously even here at DU most believe the system can still be made to work for us.

Not to be snide (well ok a little snide) but this kind of rhetoric is meaningless, pointless and does nothing to help.

If you want to present the problem in the absolutes you have just given and you want to somehow make a call to action, there had better be a plan because otherwise you are just going to be ignored as some kind of nutjob ranting on a soapbox.

[MadHound]

36. Here's a start, take the corporate money out of politics

This can be accomplished in two ways. The first is to start working hard at making publicly financed elections a reality in all fifty states. Four states already have made this law, twenty three states can pass this via an initiative petition process, and the rest will have to have the issue go through their legislature. It will be a long, tough fight, but well worth it in the end. If you take away the need for candidates to solicit funds from corporate entities, then you cut back corporate corruption in government.

The second step is to vote only for candidates who do not take corporate cash. Yes, this is mainly the Greens, but there are also a few Democrats who don't take corporate cash, Kucinich the most notable. If you keep voting to feed the beast, you shouldn't be suprised that it gets larger.

These are two of the biggest steps we can take immediately to give our government back to the people.

[wtmusic]

42. Xlnt MadHound, and two more

-- become involved in the media conglomeration issue. which is threatening free speech and eroding democracy by killing alternative points of view. Write, call, FAX your reps and urge them to roll ownership limits back. Visit FAIR.org for more info

-- Fight black box voting. World-renowned computer security expert Bruce Schneier has called computerized voting a "horrendously dangerous idea" and most other experts agree. All the campaigning and lobbying in the world is worthless if your hard-won votes suddenly disappear...

[Caution]

46. those are not concrete steps

The first part would require backing by a massive part of the population and would require them to be vocal and visible.

the second part is even bigger because no one cares about the greens or candidates like kucinich except those of us who are reform minded. Without corporate money you can see just how successful these candidates have been.

Kucinich was completely marginalized and the Greens are a running joke among nearly 50% of the voting population and have earned themselves the ire of an additional 75% of the remaining 50% of the electorate thanks to the Nader candidacy (whether or not you think it is deserved, you cannot deny that a very large portion of the electorate are very pissed off at Nader and the Greens over the perception that his candidacy put Bush in the White House).

This is not a proposal at all. This is just a recognition of one of the problems facing democracy today. I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything here even though I am probably coming across as one, but the fact is that these problems run much deeper. The only way to address them is through mass media of one sort or another and to increase visibility of the issues. The mass media is pretty heavily controlled by the corporations who own them who have a vested interest in the status quo.

I don't have any solutions either. But I do know that the first action to be taken is to get Bush out of office. He has to go, so right now Kerry gets my vote. Voting for anyone else right now simply undermines the country even more. Another four years of Bush would be an unmitigated disaster that might not be recoverable.

[MadHound]

49. They're more doable than "reforming the party from within"

The first part is well within peoples' grasp, especially if you live in one of the states that allows initiative ballot issues. According to Granny D and other election reform organizations, aprox. eighty percent of the American populace is in favor of publicly financed elections. Those are the kind of numbers that can get an issue on a ballot and passed.

And like I said about my second point, if you keep feeding the beast, it will keep getting larger. All the two major parties are doing quite frankly is playing good cop/bad cop with the populace. If you look at their underlying positions you would see very little difference; both are for continuance of the war in Iraq, both are pro-corporate, both are for the increased erosion of civil rights. This is what happens when corporations corrupt our government, you wind up with the two party/same corporate master system of government. The differences are more of style and degree than of actual substance. Both men will keep us in Iraq indefinately, the only question is whether either or both will take us into Iran.

The net effect of the narrowing of political views in government is that fewer and fewer people vote, since they see little or no difference in the candidates. If a real difference was presented and promoted, then these people would come out in droves. Look at the Nader campaign of '00. The bulk of his supporters were people who had never voted, or not voted in a long while.

Your suggestion to push this in the media is ludicrous. Do you honestly think that a corporate controlled media is actually going to push an anti-corporate agenda? The only way you are going to put this issue in the media spotlight is through a high profile election campaign, therefore you have to have a candidate pushing the issue, forcing the media to take notice.

Sorry friend, but engaging in more of the same ol' same ol' isn't going to accomplish a damn thing other than hurrying our path to hell. We need to break out of the two party/same corporate master system of government, and more of the status quo isn't the solution. Radical ideas for radical times is what is needed. We have the tools in our hands, let's use them.

[Caution]

56. ah ok so i should vote for Nader?

take a look at the electorate. While you may not like it the US is comprised of mostly centrists. Limbaugh and Gingrich can talk all they want about the silent majority and Moore and Franken can talk all the way about how most Americans are liberal, but when it comes right down to it look at how people vote.

Dean and Kucinich were slaughtered. Dean had a ton of cash and still managed to lose in Iowa (before the Dean scream so please don't go crying about how the media killed him. his message and his manner killed him. the media just played to it). Nader couldn't get enough of the votes to qualify the Greens for public financing.

What are YOU doing about it? Are you putting together ballot initiatives? Or are you just trying to get DU'ers to do it for you?

Who are you voting for? If you are voting for Nader or the Green candidate (whoever that is this election cycle), you are working to put Bush in office. If Bush is put in office what do you think is going to be the net effect on Democracy?

And go ahead and spout off about the corporate media and establishment all you like. Guess what? A very large portion of Americans make their living off corporate America. If the profits of the oil industry plummeted what do you think would happen? Do you think the people would rise up and demand a share in ownership? Hell, they might because they wouldnt be able to put food on the table. This isn't 1900 anymore. People have been taught to behave a certain way and to understand the power of the ruling elite in a certain way and if you seriously think that people like Ralph Nader have any shot at challenging the status quo without the media taking him seriously you havent been paying attention.

Noam Chomsky is a great example. Here is a guy who has been spouting off about the business parties for decades, he has been advocating exactly the kinds of things you are for decades. He is a highly visible, highly successful speaker who is also hugely popular the world over. The media IGNORES him. Why? Because what he advocates is a threat to their powerbase.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying that you haven't said anything new. You certainly havent proposed a single thing for anyone to do other than to vote for people outside of the establishment. But guess what? more than 90% of those who vote think this is a TOTAL waste of time. They don't believe they can upset the establishment this way. What is the solution? I honestly don't know. But unless you get the media on board in some way there is NO solution. You can't get people excited about a candidate by having him travel around. The messages needs to come through the media and it needs to resonate with EVERYONE. Dean's message, Kucinich's message, Nader's message doesn't resonate and if it did have a shot the media would eviscerate them.

The build up of alternative media is the only method. Internet message boards, blogs, zines, cable access television shows, things like AAR, documentary films, these are the methods at hand and they should be explored. If a progressive in every city vowed to start a local access cable channel explaining the progressive point of view, the media would take notice and people might start to get an inkling of real news. But until something is done about the media your ideas will never go anywhere and we are forced to vote for the lesser of two evils (though frankly anyone who thinks Kerry is some kind of corporate stooge is sadly misinformed).

[MadHound]

64. Well, that might be a start, but I can see you're dead set against it

As far as what I'm doing, well yes, I have been working on a ballot initiative for publicly financed election campaigns. We had one in my state for the '00 election cycle, but it got shot down on wording technicalities in the Mo court system. We'll see what happens this time around. I'm also involved in local elections and Green party politics. What about you? From your posts I gather that you're still involved in more of the same ol' same ol'. This is not a constructive path to take friend, for it is how we got in the situation we are now.

For me now, it is a toss up between Kerry and the Green party. Kerry hasn't shown me anything substantially different, he strikes me as simply another corporate whore who will continue the corporate screw job on the American people, albeit with a kinder, gentler facade. The only things that are making me pause are the possibility of Supreme Court appointments and the very real possibility of Bush's widening the ME conflict to include Iran, Syria, or both. Kerry is less likely to do this, though there is still a possibility. This is something I'm going to be wrestling with up until election day.

And if taking the corporations out of our government threatens jobs, so be it. Having big business in control of our government hasn't done a whole hell of a lot for the job situation in our country anyway, or haven't you noticed the jobs fleeing the country through outsourcing, or the decreasing of real world wages, or the increasing gap between the rich and the rest of us. I seriously doubt that heaving corporate America out of government will cause further unemployment, in fact I contend the opposite will happen, that more jobs will be created, since the head long rush to outsourcing will be stopped, but hey, you never know.

And Noam Chomsky is hardly the example you are looking for. Outside of polical junkies like ourselves, Chomsky isn't known at all. Moore is probably a better example of what you're looking for, and yes, he is being effective in changing peoples' minds and hearts. I agree with you, we need more of his type around, for the left is seriously lacking in media outlets with which to get their message across

And how you can say I haven't proposed a thing is simply dismissing what I've said in previous posts out of hand. No, they aren't new ideas, but they are good ones that bear repeating as often as possible. As I've said before, continuance of the same ol' same ol' two party/one corporate master system of government is a death knell for democracy in this country. If you wish to sit idly by decrying efforts to reform the system as impractical, feel free. But I prefer to do something to fight corporate encroachment, and if successful, you can thank me when we're done.

Moaning and pissing because you think corporate media won't notice is useless, it is our job to get noticed. You raise a big enough stink and the corporate media will HAVE to notice, if for no other reason than ratings. That is how you change things. Yes, I know it is going to be a long, tough battle, with no sure outcome. But it is better than doing nothing, letting our country slowly slide into facism through neglect and apathy.

[Caution]

71. We'll have to agree to disagree

because yes I have made up my mind i think Ralph Nader has lost all sight of the prize, though thankfully the Green Party seems to get it for the moment.

As for Chomsky I would totally disagree with you. Chomsky is incredibly well known in the circles that form the base of any hope of a reform movement. However, even he who has a HUGE following, in conjunction with Nader and Moore were unable to sway even 10% of the electorate.

As for Kerry being a "corporate whore" please point to something that actually shows his proclivities in this area. Accepting corporate donations isn't one of them because I'll just say he is doing so in order to get Bush out of office as a first step in the right direction. I want actual examples of places where Kerry has blatantly put the interests of corporate America in front of those of the American people.

One you can point to is the IWR vote. He has explained his position over and over on this one and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. That's my personal assessment and barring some other evidence I see no reason to doubt him.

So you honestly think that tossing corporate america out of government would create more jobs? dead wrong. If corporate america were simply tossed out of government and the "revolution" you imagine were to take place (i quote that because i mean cultural not violent rev) there would be a very big backlash. First off, if you were to stop outsourcing immediately, productivity would crash due to the need to hire a smaller less affordable workforce and then spend huge amounts of money and time in training them to do the work currently done by 4 people overseas. Or you simply pay 4 people at the same rate as the offshore people are getting. If the environmental laws were made as strict as the Green party wishes the energy sector would simply collapse under the weight of the cost of infrastructure upgrades. The only way to offset the costs is through headcount reduction. Massive headcount reduction. The same holds true for corporate farming techniques.

The only way to accomplish these goals is through a slow but sure strengthening of labor and environmental laws that allow the economy to absorb the blows this type of legislation would require.

I would argue that the past 30 years leading up to 2000 we were heading in the right direction with the real advances seen in the Clinton years. Economic boom time, good paying jobs, very low unemployment, paying off the debt, environmental advances readily visible, recovering population growth of endangered species. 30 years of work and then boom. In comes Bush with the help of Nader and the Greens who want it all NOW regardless of the short and long term consequences and Bush says screw all this. I want to make MONEY. period. he destroys decades of progress in less then 4 years. Well screw that. I want this guy out and I want him out now. Once he is gone, and someone like Kerry comes in who is able to work inside of an established party for positive change than we can start in on the issues that SHOULD matter such as the horrendous consequences of bad foreign policy that have been pursued over nearly a century.

Thanks but no thanks. I'll vote for Kerry and I'll disagree that somehow the Democrats are also responsible for the crap that has been pulled by the Republican Party.

[MadHound]

75. Wow friend, where have you been?

If you honestly think that we were headed in the right direction for the past thirty years, and then Bush just trashed the place, especially if you think that Clinton was the nadir of Americas' progress, well, just damn. All I can say is that I think you haven't been paying attention.

Clinton is the one who really got outsourcing rolling with his support and signing of NAFTA. He also supported and signed the '96 Telecom Act, which gave a huge boost to the corporate media that you so decry. Then there was his shredding of civil liberties with the '98 Terrorist Act, his shredding of the social safety net with welfare "reform", hell friend, the list is endless. Forty years ago, Clinton would have been considered a moderate Republican. It is a sad sign of the times that he ran and won as a Democrat.

And I find it funny that you rule out acceptance of corporate donations as a reason for labeling Kerry a corporate whore. That is, after all, the very essence of the definition. An exchange of money for something of value. Well, let us see what things of value Kerry gave to his corporate backers. How about his continued support of outsourcing? Or his vote(or lack thereof) on the Medicare prescription drug bill? Or his favorable vote on the Patriot Act(and yes, corporations do benefit from that, homeland security being THE growth industry of the new century)? Or that he voted for the '96 Telecom Act? Pro corporate actions all, and he recieved money in exchange. To think otherwise is to be either very naive or willfully ignorant.

And I'm sorry, but I also have to include the IWR. If nothing else, this is a great example of the man putting his own personal needs ahead of his job. For despite whatever explanation he comes up with, despite the morality of the IWR, it really boils down to one concrete point: The man failed to do his primary job, which is to represent the will of his constituents. With messages to both the House and Senate running 280-1 against the IWR, with the major polls showing that the American people didn't want to do anything, including vote on the IWR, until the inspectors were done, the message to all of our represenatives was clear, no on the IWR. Kerry failed in that, his most basic of jobs, representing his constituents. He once again put the interests of the few ahead of the wishes of his employers, we the people. Sounds like a sell out to me friend.

And your grasp of the economics of outsourcing and the solutions to it are both simplistic and illogical. It isn't something that could be done all at once, but a start is better than nothing at all. And employment and productivity would both go up if we started shipping jobs back home. The golden economic years of last century, from the end of WWII-through the early seventies were accomplished without outsourcing, why don't you think they can be achieved again?

As far as enviromental law goes, actually that would be a good thing for the economy. Massive amounts of money are starting to be made in the "green" economy, with a large potential for growth. Sure, some plants and industries would have to change, but most could be managed with minimal capital outlay,and little retooling. One big one to think of is biodiesel. A green technology that could ween us off of our dependence on fossil fuels, with minimal impact on the economy. And as the gas and coal sectors diminish, the new biodiesel sector would pick up the slack, employing new workers, and bolstering the energy production, along with helping the family farmer. Wow, what a concept eh?

I would suggest some reading for you, some Palast, Hightower and Kevin Phillips among others. You come across as simply throwing your hands up in the air, declaring "Oh woe is me, there is nothing to be done", and that is an attitude that guarantees no progress. Instead of fretting over what can't be done, get out and educate yourself, both on the problems and solutions. The old adage of "If you're not a part of the solution, then you're a part of the problem" still holds true in this day and age. Which part do you want to be? It is up to you friend.

[Caution]

76. alright do we really want to get into this here?

Of course my answers were simplistic. That's the point in an online discussion. I'm not trying to write a book. I don't think Clinton was the greatest thing since sliced bread but much of what happened under Clinton was positive, sure some was negative and some i would consider VERY negative, in fact I would be willing to bet that I have a LOT more reason to dislike Clinton than you do. (if you really want to know, PM me and I'll explain).

Your answers are as simplistic as mine. A Green economy COULD be a great thing but it takes time to convert industry over and in that time if the changes made were immediate we would be looking at a very serious economic downturn costing hundreds of thousands more jobs.

As for the outsourcing thing you are preaching to the choir on it, but i don't think that Ralph Nader is the answer, nor do I think the ecomonic policies espoused by the Greens would have any welcome or acceptance at all by an American public which has institutionalized hatred for communism and socialism. Outsourcing is a problem which will solve itself (already my company is rolling back from outsourcing). Outsourcing is only effective for a company if the product put out is still of a high enough quality for the consumer and if the cost of labor is not too great. The cost of labor in the countries most typically outsourced to is rising and because there is already a huge profit offset in terms of time zone differentials, shipping costs, cost of materials etc etc companies will eventually realize that the benefits of a local workforce are greater. Do I think government can and should accelerate this process through incentive based programs? Absolutely.

I rule out corporate donations in *this* election. I should have made that clearer. Yes I would absolutely agree that corporate donations are causing immeasurable harm to the political system, however in this election cycle i think that to simply say no to them leaves a candidate out in the cold. If Kerry hadn't taken any donations of the type you describe what would his chances be in this election cycle? Yeh i don't think he would have had a shot either and what would have happened if all the Dems had said no and just taken public funding? Bush would have hammered his crap down the media's throats and no dem could possibly have competed.

As for the IWR, can we agree on one thing? The POTUS came to Congress and declared that he had intelligence showing that Iraq posed an imminent and immediate danger to the welfare of the citizens of the United States. He told Congress they were reconstituting nuclear weapons, that that had nerve agents, biological weapons and were willing and ready to provide them to a group of people who had a proven ability to infiltrate the US and a will to kill innocent civilians. The people of the US were *overwhelmingly* for the war despite hundreds of thousands of protestors. Even still Congress gave permission but declared that there should be international consensus. Bush then took this and ran with it in a way that most Americans couldnt have conceived of. Are all those in Congress supposed to simply assume that the POTUS and the intelligence he presents is garbage? Especially after having heard the SAME intelligence from Clinton? Yes it turned out to be bogus, but there is a reason the CIA exists and that is to provide the POTUS with evidence threats to national security. I can't fault Kerry for doing what he thought was right to protect the interests of the people of the United States.

Those of us who are cynical of *everything* government does said "this is bullshit" but those who believe in government's ability to do good and to protect were in favor of it. Now Kerry has told us his line of reasoning behind his vote. We can take him at his word and see if he follows up on it or we can bump Nader up from his current 4% to 4.0001% with my vote and know Bush will then take his miniscule margin of victory as a clear mandate from God to conquer the rest of the middle east, to quash all dissent in the US, to cut taxes on the rich further, to allow his gutting of environmental laws to become permanent etc etc.


back to the corporate whore canard. With you on the telecom bill, the others i disagree with, the patriot act was passed in a total environment of fear and to think somehow that senators are immune from the same fears that the rest of us are subject to is a crock of shit. Did a few of those out there vote against it? yes. but not many. I dont buy for a second that this was over corporate interests. the patriot act has little bearing on the military itself which is where the vast majority of monies will make there way into the private sector. The patriot act was passed as a method of control. It's too bad that fear reigned at the time. Finally on his support of outsourcing, i'll grant you that i disagree with him there. But I'm not a single issue voter and though my job is one of the single largest of those targetted in the current outsourcing mania, I personally think the other issues are more fundamental and won't allow it to sway my vote.

As for the reading list, thanks but I've already read everything you just mentioned and more. As for throwing up my hands and saying woe is me, shove it. I have worked long hard hours in order to affect change in this country and I will continue to do so because I think that through it all the great experiment is worth continuing and I want to build a better future for those who come after me.

Why don't you get off your high horse and stop making idiotic assumptions about people based upon 15 minutes worth of typed discussion? Educate myself. Now that's laughable. As someone who has read over 200 books (fiction and non) in the last year, who consistently reads 30-40 magazines per month, who follows the news like it's an addiction, who attended Harvard University and has an IQ in excess of 160 and one who tries not to make the same mistake about people you have made here, I'll try to refrain from telling you to open your eyes and realize that the vast majority of American people don't give two shits about the political process and when i talk to them about it the answer i get more often then not is "Yeh well, I got a check for $300 so he's getting my vote."

[MadHound]

78. If not now friend, when?

I've been working in politics for over thirty years now, much of it within the Democratic Party. I've seen the slow slide towards corporate whoredom up close and personal. And after trying to work for change from within, and being stymied in the process, I've decided it is time for change from without. Yes, it is a long, slow, agonizing process, therefore the sooner we start the better. This election cycle, the bogeyman is Bush. Next cycle it will be somebody else. There are always contrived excuses for putting off change, especially if that change threatens the powers that be. By the time that people like yourself get off the fence and start realizing that they've compromised themselves right into corporate serfdom, it will be too late.

And yes, a green economy takes time to implent, I mentioned that in my previous post. But like any other technological/economic revolution it is ultimately good for the economy. You don't have to look any further than the industrial or high tech revolutions to realize that. I'm not advocating that in comes into being all at once, but that we set it into motion via legislation and use of market forces, then let it take it's course. Or would your rather wait until peak oil hits and watch the chaos as the American economy scrambles for a solution? And you're discounting the American public if you think that they wouldn't buy a green economy. Toyota introduced a gas/electric hybrid, and not only is the American public snapping them up, but the demand for such vehicles has sparked more auto-makers to come out with their own hybrids. Americans DO care about the enviroment, and are willing to put their wallets where their mouth is. Let us take advantage of that.

As for as the IWR goes, it still boils down to Kerry's failure to do his most basic of job duties, which is representing the will of his constituents. He ignored their wishes in this matter, why should we believe that we won't do such when he is president? Better yet, why should we reward him for this failure?

As far as pre-war intelligence goes, well gee, Kerry could have looked at the '98 CIA report stating that Iraq was no threat to us or his neighbors, or the IAEA report stating that Iraq didn't have nuclear weapons or an active nuclear program, or the reports from the weapons inspectors finding no WMD, or simply used his common sense. After all, how can a country that we bombed back to the stone age, and continued to bomb on a thrice weekly basis, whose economy was on life support, and who was one of the most closely watched countries in the world seriously be considered to be any kind of threat, much less one that was "45 minutes away" from attacking us?

And if you honestly don't believe that the Patriot Act wasn't a give away to big business, then go check out the big bucks that the homeland security industry(a direct result of the Patriot Act) is raking in.

It is nice to know that you are sufficiently intelligent to realize the dire straits we are in. But having a high IQ and a good education still doesn't make up for the common sense and empathy needed to realize that no matter who is currenetly in power, the common man is suffering.

Look friend, I suspect that you and I have more in common than not. I think that the time to start reclaiming government of the people is now, and apparently you wish to forestall this, at least through this election cycle. There are perils on both paths, both long term and short term. Time will tell which of us is correct, let us hope that that the lesson isn't too painful for either of us.

[Caution]

81. i understand where you are coming from

As is usually the case in political discussions, those who are informed about the issues tend to be the most locked into their viewpoint and the least likely to be swayed by argument so you are not going to change my mind, I'm not going to change yours and this is the very reason that Kerry is forced to move to the Center in order to sway the votes of those who really don't know what's really happening here and can't see past their wallets.

I'm not willing to abandon the Democratic Party just yet and frankly i think that we are closer to totalitarianism than most do. I'm in general not a big :tinfoilhat: guy. (my other posts will bear that out and in fact i typically hit ignore on anyone who is actively promoting MIHOP and whatnot). However I have made extensive studies of verious totalitarian governments and I think we are not far off. All Bush needs is an excuse and he'll cancel elections. Once that happens all bets are off.

While I agree with much of what you say about the Iraq war, the fact is that we live in a world where to go against W at that time was to court political disaster. I am an idealist but I'm also a pragmatist and I recognize the need for those who are politicians to sometimes do things that aren't necessarily what they may want to do.

My whole point in this fruitless exercise is that time is far too short to think that we can revolutionize the political process without opening the door for W to really destroy the whole thing.

Do you honestly believe that some how you are going to send a message to the powers that be? Local activism, local elected officials are the only way to accomplish that. The national stage is too big at this point. It took nearly 150 years for the American Revolution to get off the ground and this was in a time when distractions like television, sports, film, etc weren't constant. Only through building a party locally can this possibly be accomplished. The Green Party has moved too fast. They are guilty of the same thing many businesses are guilty of which is overextending themselves. You can't build a party from the top down.

What you are advocating is exceedingly difficult. How do you do it? What I want from you are action items. You have given me nothing other than vague generalities to work with, i have argued from the standpoint of the status quo. I want to work in the system you want to abolish the system. Well give me incentive and methodology to do it. I think that if I were to follow your path i would be frustrated by seeing things continually get much much worse because my enemies have greater resources. My best friend voted for Nader in 2000, i voted for Gore, I pleaded with him about it, I told him the poor would get poorer, the rich richer and that his best efforts would go for naught. Instead he claimed "principle." What did his principles accomplish? Is it better to stand by your principles when the need is great? Or is it better to sacrifice a part of your principle (even if it is 80%) in order that it not be 100%? The same guy is going to vote for Nader again. He was hoping for Dean. I liked Dean too, but Dean's issue stances were to the right of Kerry and I'll take the leftist every time.

We are probably much more alike politically than you know, but I seriously doubt you have taken anywhere near the path I have to get where I am today and I am unwilling to allow this bastard in the White House to take it all away from me and if that means electing someone who isn't the ideal candidate to ensure that the process is slowed than so be it, and having met John Kerry on a couple of occasions, i have little doubt that his intentions are good and I'm willing to say, hmmm I'd rather have Kucinich or Sharpton or Braun, but I'd much rather NOT have Bush.

For the record, I can't friggin stand Ralph Nader. And yes I've read his books and I've read his speeches and I still can't stand the man.

[Q]

73. This is indeed the 'root of all evil' in American politics...

- Hell...corporations even run our conventions for us...paying for everything from parties to promotions.

- Let's stop sleeping with the enemy.

[sangh0]

54. There is no plan beyond "speak up", "take a stand" and "fight back"

but if you dont approve of "the plan", then you've obviously blinded yourself to the lies being told by the media. :crazy:

[Brewman_Jax]

29. It's all about the money

we've got an oligarchy (governing by ruling class) and plutocracy (governing by the wealthy) functioning as government. This is looking like Rome, that is, the Roman Empire.

[Beam Me Up]

34. RESISTANCE!

Perhaps the biggest hidden reason people don't make the paranoid shift is that knowledge brings responsibility. If we acknowledge that an inner circle of ruling elites controls the world's most powerful military and intelligence system; controls the international banking system; controls the most effective and far-reaching propaganda network in history; controls all three branches of government in the world's only superpower; and controls the technology that counts the people's votes, we might be then forced to conclude that we don't live in a particularly democratic system. And then voting and making contributions and trying to stay informed wouldn't be enough. Because then the duty of citizenship would go beyond serving as a loyal opposition, to serving as a "loyal resistance"—like the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War, except that in this case the resistance to fascism would be on the side of the national ideals, rather than the government; and a violent insurgency would not only play into the empire's hands, it would be doomed from the start.

Forming a nonviolent resistance movement, on the other hand, might mean forsaking some middle class comfort, and it would doubtless require a lot of work. It would mean educating ourselves and others about the nature of the truly apocalyptic beast we face. It would mean organizing at the most basic neighborhood level, face to face. (We cannot put our trust in the empire's technology.) It would mean reaching across turf lines and transcending single-issue politics, forming coalitions and sharing data and names and strategies, and applying energy at every level of government, local to global. It would also probably mean civil disobedience, at a time when the Bush regime is starting to classify that action as "terrorism." In the end, it may mean organizing a progressive confederacy to govern ourselves, just as our revolutionary founders formed the Continental Congress. It would mean being wise as serpents, and gentle as doves.

It would be a lot of work. It would also require critical mass. A paradigm shift.

But as a paranoid, I'm ready to join the resistance. And the main reason is I no longer think that the "conspiracy" is much of a "theory."

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary/011004Hasty/011004hasty.html

Edit: html

[Tyler Durden]

37. Q, nobody WANTS to face the reality of the SITREP.

Everyone wants to believe that because the Empire's Capital has been moved to Byzantium and Christianity is now the State Religion, that the Empire will no longer decline.

Oops. Was channeling a Roman Senator for a sec there.

Q, EVERYTHING that lives was BORN, LIVES for a time, and DIES. If it has not evolved as a species (like our country/government/what have you) then it also becomes EXTINCT until Evolution maybe gives something similar another shot.

I don't want to sound too depressing, but I had a minor in History going the last time through college, and I could see this coming (not this specifically, but something similar) in 1992.

Q, maybe we've just gotten to the point where Marie Antoinette has said "Let them eat cake!", I mean, Bush has to told us just one too many lies, and storming the Bastille or just shutting up and living with it are our only options.

[Beam Me Up]

39. THERE IS A TIME. . .

There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part; you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop. And you’ve got to indicate to all the people who run it, to the people that own it, that unless you’re free, the machines will be prevented from working at all.

-Mario Savio, 1964

[Beam Me Up]

40. IT IS THEIR RIGHT, IT IS THEIR DUTY

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

--The Declaration of Independence

[tom_paine]

43. I get it, and I am dreading it being true. But I will keep working to

see that it doesn't.

You are correct, Q, the Busheviks are NOT believers in either democraccy or small 'r' republicanism.

They are Totalitarians, and if their "New and Improved" marketing package fools people, welll then, that's what it was designed to do.

We are not dealing with our opposites, we are dealing with people who fundamentally dislike the idea of America in the same way Hitler fundamentally disliked the idea of a Free Gremany, but pretended to support it, and made people believe the lie until it was too late.

Q might be wrong here, but he might be absolutely correct and personally I think there is an 80% chance he is correct.

What to do? I don't know, so I work as if I live in a Free Country with s Free Press and a Trustworthy Voting System, working and donating etc.

Even though I almost certainly live in/have none of these.

After it becomes crystal clear what Imperial Amerika is, I will continue trying to save the System that made us so happy, even with all it's faults and flaws for 225 years until it died on 12-12-2000.

(may it be restored SOON!)

And yes, a Kerry victory is only one small step.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

50. First of all, the US has NEVER BEEN A DEMOCRACY!

We're a Democratic Republic. THERE'S A HUGE DIFFERENCE!
Duckie

[Q]

68. More apologies for a failed Republic?

- You're mincing words. Our government is supposed to be set up on democratic principles. That is...The People elect those who are to run the government under Constitutuional guidelines.

- I'm not surprised to see someone come up with the same old rhetoric about our country not being a democracy. Confusing people on this issue is a way to hand out get out of jail free cards to anyone wanting to subvert democracy.

- Yes...you could say that the US is not a 'pure' democracy. But what we have now isn't even close. It's a nation that PRETENDS to be a democracy...but it's actually owned and operated by a few wealthy individuals and corporations.

- It's sad that anyone could accept the status quo.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

69. I'm not mincing words or confusing anyone: I'm stating fact.

Take it how you will, but quit your bitching and do something about if you don't like it. Don't just sit on your ass and bitch.
Duckie

[moof]

51. Reality and truth are both bitter pills these days Q

apparently like you the willingness of so many to turn a blind eye
seems to be becoming an obstacle to beginning to take the steps necessary to start toward the road to true freedom. Just as no one wants to be the last to give their life in a war no one is willing
wants to be the first to give their life until there is no doubt that there is little chance for change in any other way.

Personally the words Live Free or Die or Give Me Liberty of Give Me Death ring louder and with more truth at each passing day.

It does not seem a goal that can be attained but when the decision is made and a list of who can be counted on to side with liberty and freedom or die trying you may add the name of moof to the top of that list.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

52. What better sign than penning up dissenters?

Free Speech..as long as you be nice and toe the party line. Free Press..for corporations. Freedom to assemble..behind razor wire topped fences.

[Q]

57. Moof and bandera 'get it'...

...as do many other DUers.

- The very existance of 'cages with razor wire fences' should stun anyone that loves America and Bill of Rights. That Americans can accept these atrocities and go on as if nothing is out of place is very telling.

[ClassWarrior]

59. Then tell the DNC about it...

...and don't use it to "bash other people over the head with it," to use Kanary's words. In fact, make a post saying "Hey everybody - let's tell the DNC what we think of the cages" and keep it kicked, instead of wasting so much time bitching to the choir!

[Kanary]

61. Please do NOT use my words to attack Q!

Look, you seemed to want to make peace with me, and I want that, too. But your way of going about making your poit is very divisive, and I don't want to be associated with that.

You said that you worked to get the stalwarts to listen to the naderites...... well, it's that time again....

Some listening, and some conflict resolution is badly needed here.

If you can't bring yourself to do that, don't use my name to deepen the divide.

Kanary

[ClassWarrior]

62. I ask him to channel his frustration into action...

...instead of bashing other people with it, and I'm the one being devisive?

[Kanary]

63. Actually, yes you are

He's not bashing, and saying that is divisive.

I don't want my words used in that way.

He, and I and every other DUer have as much right to vent our frustration as you have.

Look, I tried to point out the divisions here, and what is going on. I asked you to use some of that coflict resoluton stuff and make a *positive* change of direction with all this. It's not too hard to see that this constant ragging back and forth isn't helping the situation.

We can either start now to heal this divide, or we can watch it rip the party, and have a bigger mess to heal later.

You began today by asking for mature behavior...... this is an opportunity to demonstrate that. You keep wanting us to "take the high road"......... here's an opportunity to show how it's done.

Kanary

[ClassWarrior]

66. I never said anyone didn't have a right to vent frustration.

I simply suggested it'd be more productive to channel it.

Okay, I'm taking the high road and having done with this discussion. It's been my stated goal all along to bring us together, and if my words are unintentionally having the opposite effect, then it's best I drop this line of discussion.

Nuff said.

[Q]

72. Democrats are going to ignore these issues...

...'until it swims up and bites them in the ass.

- We already KNOW what to expect from the Right. They want perpeptual war and full control of 'our' government. Our response to this has been to concede and compromise. But what the 'radicals' and activists are trying to convey to the Dem party is that there are some issues that can't be compromised away.

- We can talk about abortion and public education and come to an agreement. But we simply can't compromise on such pivotal issues as WAR and government accountable. What we're saying is that we find it disgusting and immoral that Dems seemingly have joined the 'other side' in supporting an unjust war and covering up crimes committed in broad daylight by the Bush* regime.

- Now we're being asked to 'move on' one more time. It's simply not going to happen. We wouldn't have to dissent and protest the Dem party if they had made moral/ethical choices instead of chosing the politically expedient.

- Winning has become everything...to the exclusion of what's good for the nation and people.

[Octafish]

70. November 22, 1963

Like many DUers, I've been on to them for a while. Since I was old enough to think what I knew trumped what the government-Wall-Street-media-Mafia-NAZI-KKK-MI-Complex was telling me. So... I try to keep things simple when explaining how things got the way they are today. The Democracy disappeared on 22 November 1963:

When the War Party says "Go!" JFK says "No" to World War III via Bay of Pigs Thing.

When the War Party says "Go!" JFK says "No" to World War III via Cuban Missile Crisis.

When the War Party says "Go!" JFK says "No" to World War III via Operation Northwoods.

When the War Party says "Go!" JFK says "No" to World War III via Vietnam War.

So the War Party said JFK had to go.

Let's bring these treasonous bastards to justice - at least those surviving and their beneficiaries.

[goclark]

74. I get it, we are no longer a democracy

I am with you. We are no longer a Democracy.
Hillary said it best, there is a "vast Right Wing Conspiracy" and it is wide awake and in total control of this country.

I will work like hell to get Kerry elected.
GB we pray will be out of office. BUT, the "vast right wing Conspiracy" folks will still be in control folks. They are not going away,in November, in December - they are not going away.

Just watch the TV today. It is the Democrats Convention and every word is slanted immediately after and before any good thing is said about the Kerry's.

They are bashing Teresa on every channel. I just heard her clearly say on tape"unAmerican TRAITS." Her voice was soft but I could hear her.
The CNN reporter said,"she said the word UNAMERICAN." They then cut to break!

We have NO control over the Media.
We have NO control over Congress.
We have no control over the Supreme Court.
We have no control over this election.
We are but a whisper in our country.

We can get all the votes in the world and they are still the owners of Diebold and every other voting option!

This is not a Democracy, we do not have "free" speech. We can only speak when they allow us to speak. It reminds me of that game for children, "Mother May I." Before we can take a step we have to ask the Bush Evil Doers is it OK to take a step!

When this convention is over, I say ALL the gloves should come off and we battle, I mean battle,to get our country back. What does that mean...

Get Out The Vote and make a HUGE effort to make the voting process work this time!

MARCH!

Get out the speakers that have STRONG voices and have them do MM type things to draw attention to our message. My idea of a strong speaker is CORINNE BROWN, never let this nation forget for one minute that they stole 2000 but they will NOT steal 2004.
etc, etc, etc

We are fighting two wars folks, the War in Iraq and the War in America against the Right Wing Conspiracy.

[ScreamingMeemie]

80. I'm not surprised at the press....I'm surprised at the people who

swallow it down as gospel and then spew it back out while wrapped in the flag. That's what shocks the hell out of me.