Kerry has some damage control to do

[genius]

Greg is Bush's worst nightmare. Yet he speaks for a lot of Democrats when he expresses his concerns about Kerry.

http://gregpalast.com /
JOHNNY BEEN GOOD?
Friday Jul 30, 2004
by Greg Palast

The millionaires are dancing now. The balloons are falling on John Kerry, John Edwards and their nuclear families.


They're playing "Johnnie B. Goode" over the loudspeakers. Democrats are hopping up and down like JFK never went to Dallas; like Bill Clinton didn't blow it for us; like there's a chance to bring the boys home alive; like America can crawl out of Dick Cheney's bunker and look at the sun again.

But has Johnnie Kerry been good so far?
...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Palast was sloppy and this is a dupe (my response from the other thread)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2116708&mesg_id=2117552

[Jackpine Radical]

17. Dupe or not, this thread at least served the purpose

of guiding me to your original post. Wow, yes, right on. Thank you.

[blm]

23. Holy crap, girl....are you reading my mind?

Of course, my version below sounds like the Pickles way to rebut - Yours is more like Mama T.

heheh ;)))))))))))))) I LOVE MAMA T

[playahata1]

50. Who is Mama T?

n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. Theresa Heinz Kerry

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. oh and John Kerry didn't shoot anyone in the back, that was Bob Kerrey

SLOPPY SLOPPY SLOPPY SHIT!

[genius]

62. YOur response is biased and misleading, much like someone

who doesn't want to look at the truth.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

69. Nor does Palast who can't get John Kerry and Bob Kerrey straight

and I might add your response was filled with useful information..was it in invisible ink?

[Mojambo]

2. Keep him honest and push him.

It's good for him, good for us, and good for the country.

[genius]

13. Exactly

[redqueen]

14. AFTER he's elected

doing it BEFORE is helping ROVE.

[DenverDem]

3. How many times are you going to post this BULLSHIT?

Wonderfully debunked here:
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2116708#2117552>

[genius]

7. Unless you're on Bush's side, you'll open your eyes and check out Palast's

article. His article has NOT been debunked but is dead-on accurate and supported by the facts and by a lot of the people who want the party to be all it can be. Kerry has a lot of bad votes and he needs to reach out to those who were hurt by those votes. I'm voting for Kerry but I need Kerry's help in getting many Democrats I know to vote for him.

Supporting Kerry doesn't mean being blind to the point of letting Bush win. It also means pointing out where Kerry needs to reach out.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

27. OK but let's look at it in context..NCLB was a POOR program

however, there was NOT a program that would PASS on the table at the time NCLB passed.

While Kerry has SOME bad votes, all you need to do is go LOOK at the legislation he has SPONSORED in the past as well as his site...and ASK YOURSELF THIS...if KERRY were in the WH, would NCLB have been the only game in town at the time when Nancy Pelosi and David Obey were pushing a much better program? I think now? Has anyone BOTHERED to ask why Ted Kennedy, a CHAMPION of many liberal causes put his NAME to NCLB?

And NO...his article is NOT accurate and I pointed out numerous times where he recontextualized or deliberately ommitted facts in order to be self serving...this is the SAME GUY who worships at the alter of Joseph Stigletz who CREATED some of the economic policies STRANGLING other nations now that Stigletz has recanted his policies while working at the World Bank....how is it Palast has forgiveness for Stigletz...who never returned his Pulitzer, even though his professed economic policies have not been rescinded and who probably KILLED more people with a pen and a policy than in ALL OF THE IRAQ war..but can't see past the IMMENSE pressure Kerry was under?

BTW...he was dead wrong on the balanced budget amendment...we HAD A SURPLUS when Clinton left office and COULD HAVE funded more social programs...but again...Palast by ommission certainly overlooks that fact, no?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. Caveat: But it's a really great article to those who insist on looking at

all of recent history through a "there is no difference" vacuum...I will grant you that...only problem is in order to do that they must ignore legislative history and the make up of the house and senate.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eaprez]

4. His Opinion doesnt even count!

[Jim Sagle]

5. Greg Palast is great...but he's a bit ALIENATED. That's not a bad thing.

But how much of it can we afford right now?

[genius]

10. He is the most popular Democratic writer in America. We need to listen

and form positive responses and encourage Kerry to listen and form responses that are more diplomatic than some of the alienating responses I've seen here.

[Jim Sagle]

43. I mostly agree. The reason I respond better to him than say, Amy

Goodman, is that I sense he's basically a Democrat who really wants us to live up to our ideals. We need his help and I hope we can get it.

[OKNancy]

44. If I asked twenty Democrats

who was their favorite "democratic" writer, I seriously doubt anyone would name Palast. In fact I doubt nineteen would even know who he is.

[Catholic Sensation]

6. this line is bullshit

"President Kerry would not have sent us to war." But as Senator, Kerry did.

My bad, I didn't know that Kerry's vote made the IWR vote 51-49. Oh wait, that's because IT FUCKING DIDN'T. He also said that the President should exhaust every opportunity to avoid war before going into it.

God damn...

[genius]

8. I called Kerry's office and asked him to vote no. Thousands of us did

Kerry messed up big-time with his vote. We weren't fooled but he was. He needs to say he blew it and apologize. That would be so much smarter than playing both sides.

[Catholic Sensation]

11. that's another issue entirely, what I'm saying essentially

is Palast is talking out of his ass.

[genius]

20. Why because you don't want to unite the party behind Kerry?

Kerry needs to address this or Bush will get four more years. Kerry can address is but he doesn't need people attacking those who are trying to improve his performance.

[Catholic Sensation]

26. reading comprehension isn't your thing is it?

honestly where the hell am i saying that? I'm saying Kerry addressing his Iraq vote is another issue altogether. Since you apparently need help with this, I'll go through what I'm saying word by word (or phrase by phrase if the situation warrants it):

Greg Palast (the author of this piece)

is (the he/she/it form of "to be")

talking (speaking)

out of his ass (doesn't know what the hell he's talking about)

because (because)

John Kerry (the person in the article)

didn't (did not)

cast the deciding vote (didn't make the vote 51-49)

on the Iraq War Resolution (the policy in question)

therefore (therefore)

saying Kerry sent us to war (Kerry is responsible for what's going in Iraq)

is bullshit (is bullshit).

Need any more help?

Jesus...

[genius]

59. Every vote was a deciding vote and we need to act like Democrats

rather than Republicans who blindly follow their leader. If we hide from the truth, how can we convince Republicans to follow the ostriches. We need to be upfront and honest about everything. That is the way to prove our side is right.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

66. So, are you really trying to tell us that Greg never makes an error...

...in his articles? Seriously?

[G_j]

9. wooooaa

some folks are not going to like this piece.


:eyes:

[redqueen]

12. Put out fire first, remodel & redecorate after.

Repeat this to yourself like a mantra for the next three months.

ONLY THEN can we continue the regularly scheduled constructive criticism. This election is too important.

[genius]

15. To put out the fire, Kerry needs to answer Greg's concerns

because I've heard them from tons of Democrats who say they won't vote for Kerry. Kerry needs to re-earn these voters.

[Beaverhausen]

19. Riiiiiiiight. So who will these dems vote for? Nader?

I assume not Bush.

Please...lets get Bush out then work on the really hard stuff.

[genius]

Some may not vote. Why do you think Arnold is gov?

Davis tried it the way you seem to want Kerry to try it - by not reaching out to those who should naturally be backing him.

[redqueen]

24. Please

Californians elected Schwarzenegger because they watch too much Teevee and believe what they see.

Our hope is NOT in tearing down kerry and forcing him to appease the people who would have him lose swing votes to bush... our hope is in EDUCATING people that what they see on Teevee is mostly LIES!

or... it perhapsthis is the more likely reason. :shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

32. Excuse me but I worked HOURS AND HOURS on that election

Arnold is Governor because GREENS signed the fucking petition for the recall at the behest of Camejo in the months when the recall WOULD NOT and COULD NOT have qualified. Arnold is governor because only 1800 out of 5000 polling places were open that day. Arnold is governor because of MILLIONS of dollars worth of free advertising time. Arnold is governor because there were 138 names on the ballot and his was the most recognizable...you are comparing apples and oranges and many people who LIKE Arnold HATE Bush.

[redqueen]

21. NO. To put out the fire, we need to vote for and help elect KERRY.

AFTER he's elected, THEN we get him to answer concerns.

If you know tons of dems who won't vote for Kerry, then remind them that the only alternative is Bush. I would think 4 years would be enough time for people to learn...

[blm]

16. VERY inaccurate for a reporter. Very sloppy for a man like Palast..

Kerry was never pressured politically on a balanced budget amendment. He came into office FOR it back in 85. Palast infers that Kerry bent to the pressure back in mid90s when the GOP made it part of their Contract with America circus.

Kerry fought for fairer labor laws in NAFTA but didn't have the votes to back his amendment. He IS for global trade, but also for FAIRER global trade with environmental protections.

Palast didn't know that Kerry spent 10 years helping world leaders to craft the Kyoto Protocol?

Kerry will use the bully pulpit FOR fairer trade deals and FOR better environmental protections IN those trade deals.

Palast is also taking the lazy man's way out on IWR by blaming thewar on the resolution and the Senators who voted for it instead of blaming Bush for not IMPLEMENTING the guidelines in the IWR honestly. Bottom line is that essentially lets Bush off the hook.

[genius]

18. Kerry also backed the worst assult on the poor in the history of America

Clinton and Kerry both owe an apology for that. Kerry was following Clinton's lead there. There are a million ways he could explain that one.

[redqueen]

22. And none of the apologies will mean jack shit

if bush is re-elected.

[G_j]

34. and its not going to happen right now

I was one who has pleeded with ppl til I was blue in the face over this stuff. But the Dems chose Kerry so thats what we got. No matter how you cut it Bush MUST be ejected from office.
I can't believe how many times I've been through these discussions and how few people wanted to address these issues. Well its too late now. Kerry is the nominee and Bush must go. We drank the ABB koolaid now we have to live with it until Bush is gone. Questions like Palast asks are a problem for all of us because if we go out campaigning for Kerry people ask these same questions. And when you are trying to convince someone you can't do what so many do here, attack them for asking the question. I resent the fact that I'm put in a position where all I can say is we MUST get rid of Bush but thats the way it is. It just is. It just is.

[blm]

29. Try acknowledging what I said, genius. Be fair.

Palast wrote an inaccurate piece. It really is astonishingly lazy in its reporting relying on PERCEIVED positions and twisting the facts as much as Rove does in his antiKerry ads for Bush.

Kerry wanted, along with other honorable lawmakers, to ADDRESS any problem that arose with the Welfare Reform bill. They always expected it would need fixing in the parts that would prove weak. The ongoing reign of power by the GOP has made that near impossible.

You think we can afford SLOPPY hit pieces like this depressing ANY votes on the left?

PALAST is going to fix Welfare Reform with sloppy journalism?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

35. Kerry also sponsored CLEAN UP legislation forwarded by Ted Kennedy

following that program....again..looking at this through a vacuum...the number of people living BELOW the poverty level in America went DOWN under Clinton and went UP under Bush.

[WillyT]

25. Aaarrgghh !!! - I'm Beggin Ya... Can We Have Just ONE Day To Enjoy ???

I'm not sayin I'm not sympathetic, and nose will be back to grindstone mui pronto. But I'm looking at defending against the RIGHT today. Can we lefties take a breath and maybe enjoy a well deserved beer???

Holy Left-Flank Batman!!!

please...

:hangover:

[whistle]

31. Well the truth hurts, so what is the answer Mr. Palast.....

....Like he says he just keeps firing questions and is not responsible for answers. Any wonder that journalists and their bosses the news anchors and media editors are held in such low esteem by so many Americans.

I'm for the Kerry/Edwards ticket and I'm also voting straight democrat in my district. That's what we as voters do, we pick our preference from the candidates that have been brought before us. Get over it! Get behind the democratic candidates! Get our country back, then lets worry about finding the candidates and leaders that are completely without flaws, that is if the good Lord ever has created such humans.

[info being]

33. That's a good question

I like to believe that John Kerry has been cautious for many years in order to cross the finish line that was last night's speech. He could not come out with his true plans until he could reach enough people directly. Last night was his night. It was the beginning.

Dean and Kucinich and Sharpton...they said too much too soon and they never made it to this stage. I could be wrong, and if so I'll be the first to admit it.

[DemBones DemBones]

36. Yes, he does, and some don't want to acknowledge it. Isn't it better

to hear criticism from friends first? We'll sure as hell hear it from the other side so we need to be ready with answers.

Palast knew people wouldn't like what he said:


"Nevertheless, I know that my Democratic Party friends will want to ship me to Guantanamo for asking, "You believe in Kerry, but does he believe in you?"

Remember, comrades, I'm only asking questions, here. I'm sorry if the answers make you uncomfortable about your favorite rich guy."

I know what you're going to say. "Isn't Bush worse?"

By a long shot. But asking if Kerry is as bad as Bush is like asking if a slap in the face is as painful as a brick to the skull.

But don't you get tired of being slapped around by privileged politicos on hypocrisy hyper-drive -- then having to applaud? It can't be pleasant, no matter how many pretty balloons they drop on your head."




Yes, I DO get tired of it. Don't we all?


Barney Frank told Bill O'Reilly last night that he'd only once voted for a perfect candidate. . . "and by the end of my first term, I wasn't perfect anymore."


That's my main answer: Kerry isn't perfect but the system sometimes forces those in Congress to vote against their best instincts. There's a lot to be reformed. And you know what? It'll never be completely reformed, never perfect. That's just a fact of life.

What do we do??? Vote for the better man (and he will be the Democrat, as Harry Truman told us, and then push him to do better once he's in office.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

38. Hey I am on that page with you but LOOK at the manner in which Palast

framed it...he portrayed Kerry as a millionaire elitist when in fact Kerry did advocate against the gap in rich and poor and the concentration of wealth last night.

Someone should remind Palast that FDR came from a wealthy abode.

[DemBones DemBones]

46. Palast certainly could have given a more balanced view

of Kerry than he did. I noticed the references to "millionaires" and "the privileged," too, and thought them unfair, particularly in a party and country that largely respects FDR and JFK.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

47. He's posturing for his audience much like he accuses Kerry

No inlfammatia..no one buying his stuff either..again..he has loads of forgiveness for Stigletz simply for a mea culpa regardless of the people killed by Stigletz's economic stewardship..which was no less murderous..in fact MORESO than the Iraq war.

[G_j]

40. as I said in another post, if you are going to campaign for Kerry

you will be asked qustions just like this.
We better get used to it. For me its a matter of demonstrating how very much worse Bush is. In fact my part in this seems to be to continue to relentlessly expose Bush. That is what Moore did with F9/11 BTW and it is very effective.

[Eric J in MN]

37. Even Greg Palast admits that Bush is much worse,

We need to get a band of crooks out of the White House. That must be our focus for the next three months.

We can worry about other issues starting on November 3.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

39. Hey, "genius"...check out post #1....Palast has already been debunked....

....on this issue.

Nice try, better luck next time.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. The silence from people with NO legislative memory is deafening, ain't it?

[blm]

42. It's almost as bad as Bush's ads taking words and votes OUT OF CONTEXT.

I hate this shit. It does NOTHING to get rid of Bush and ONLY helps keep him on power.

[genius]

63. YOur response is biased nonsense. I'm sure Bush would agree with

your opinion. Hopefully Kerry has learned since his mistakes.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

65. Your response tells me that you have yet to read post #1...

...why is that exactly? Are you actually afraid to admit that both you and Greg are wrong?

Greg's not Superman, and he is fallible. Maybe you should try to understand that before you make yourself look even more silly.

[agincourt]

45. Please Greg,

Let's get the piece of slit eyed rat shit out of 1600 Pennsylvania ave. first, please , then you can fire at Kerry all you want.

[DemBones DemBones]

48. Look, we can rag on Palast for the next three months or

we can say "Yes, Palast has some points" and figure out how to address those points. Because Palast isn't the only one who'll be pointing out "negatives" in Kerry's voting record.

This isn't about not supporting Kerry, it's about being smarter about supporting Kerry.

Maybe the controversy here is that long-time Kerry supporters are already prepared to deal with these questions but the rest of us need to get up to speed.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

49. It's another "Al Gore Love Canal" hatchet job

Throw out some generalities and pray people are stupid enough to eat them, which they are. Palast should be interested in doing no harm, compared to our current situation, but NO he yearns to hear himself talk.

First, Kerry committed himself to a program to CORRECT NCLB last night while still demanding accountability from educators...while I VALUE educators, I do NOT value a system that PUSHES kids out (when they are failing rather than dropping them out when they do) simply to cover their ass with both hands and keep their school scores high. Kerry recognizes that testing is a measure but not a be all and end all of funding nor of success. That is why he (I believe) mentioned Head Start and after school programs.

While I DO NOT believe the Iraq war was the right thing to do and his vote DID and DOES anguish me, his vote alone made NO difference in the outcome..we WERE going to war regardless and this was the ONLY attempt LEFT to force Bush to the UN after Biden/Lugar which he FORCEFULLY advocated for was tabled thanks to Lieberman, Gephardt et al in the Rosegarden.

Saddam was PLAYING with the UN at the time and under a REASONABLE SANE leader, perhaps just the THREAT of war would have made a difference. Bush CERTAINLY did NOT allow the inspectors to do their job.

Again, poverty is a HUGE issue in America, but welfare alone DOES breed dependency. That is why during almost EVERY legislative session folowing the Dems DID present a bill to increase the minimum wage..and also PUSHED for aftershool programs so kids (especially from single parent families) would be safe after school.

Palast KNOCKS Kerry for the COPS program but really in a post 9/11 environment, aren't our local officers a bit more familiar with their communities than some beauracracy in DC? While a paramilitary police force can be brutal, if you LIVED in an inner city with guns being fired randomly, would you NOT WANT a police presence in your neighborhood? Are police jobs NOT good paying jobs? Is there NOT a direct corrolation between crime and poverty?

Does Kerry NOT have a decent plan for poor kids to attend college just like rich kids? Where is Bush's plan. Is Kerry's plan tied to faith based funding?

Palast had his head up his ass whn he wrote this.

Did I not provide enough to counter this sloppily written diatribe that he passed off as journalism?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

51. Palast apparently doesn't know the difference between JK and BOB Kerrey

in regards to his reference to shooting Viet Cong in the back (btw he called them Viet Namese)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2118255#2119207

[JohnKleeb]

52. I thought anyone could tell the differance

Kerrey got a medal of honor, was in teh army I believe, and is more moderate, Kerry got a silver star, was a navy man, and is quite liberal.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. Palast didn't..or he is so sloppy he didn't care

[JohnKleeb]

54. well you know NSMA

I just found out tonight he was American, I always thought he was an Englishman, I personally prefer Kerry to Kerrey, but granted they had different constieuncies. I was reading earlier that some were upset that Kerry ephaised the military a lot last night but you know, his service in the military taught him his values and he really loves those guys, he served with, its an honor to have him as the nominee, when you learn what he's all about.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. Palast is from LA and lives in England

[JohnKleeb]

58. see I know that now

but I thought he was a brit and I know he lives in england but I really thought he was english. I dont know how any journalist gets Kerry mixed up with Kerrey honestly.

[genius]

60. HIs office is in New York

[genius]

61. Your comment is based on speculation. Greg actually researches

his facts. Have you read all that John Kerry has said since he came back from Vietnam? Knowing Greg, he has.

Why do you think he turned on the war? I saw a clip of John, not Bob, talking of innocent civilians being shot. War is a terrible thing. I'm prouder of Kerry for turning on the war than for anything he did over there.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

64. Read post #1...Greg got sloppy on this one...

...no big deal, it happens to every writer. What makes it worse to me is when some folks refuse to acknowledge that fact that Greg screwed this story up. And continuing to push it as incontestable fact is even worse.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

70. Give me a link////You're making shit up

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

71. Prove it

[saracat]

67. Screw Palast.

He is a scandal mongering hack who can't get a job in this country..
He takes his bitterness out on everyone else. If he truly wants change he would be supporting Kerry not handing twisted info to the opposition. I have NO respect for this man. Obviously, he thinks his opinion is more important the the election.

[jdonaldball]

72. "A scandal mongering hack who

can't get a job in this country?"
Ah, well, of course we all know that America has much higher standards of journalism than Britain or other European countries.
Britain is where all the second rate, dishonest journalists go, after they can't get a job on CNN or MSNBC where everyone is fair and balanced.
He has however worked with BBC.
The scandal mongering hacks go away to do documentaries on BBC, after they can't get jobs on MSNBC? Is that what you mean?
(Not flaming, just asking if what you said makes complete sense.)

[saracat]

73. Palast hates everyone.

He constantly complains yet offers NO solutions.This piece was yellow journalism and a hit piece. This is a perfect example of the type of journalism we don't need.
Our journalists do suck ,but Palast hasn't done anything to elevate the profession with articles of this nature. I expect his lack of employability is due to his attitude.And BTW not all foreign journalists and BBC reporters are good. They have their share of hacks and Palast was merely an exotic "imported hack" for them.And what I said makes perfect sense,Palast is a yellow journalist who doesn't bother with facts.

[jsw_81]

68. Shove it, Greg

This kind of bullshit whining cost us the presidency last time, and as a result we've all been through hell for four solid years. Want to see Bush re-elected? Want larger GOP majorities in Congress? Want Chief Justice Scalia? Just keep it up.

[incapsulated]

74. What is the point of this piece?

Really, honestly?

He knows most of us are feeling pretty good about a convention and a speech that did better than most of us expected. We are feeling fired up about getting Bush out and saving this country.

So, what a perfect time to piss in everyone's cornflakes and remind us that Kerry is a) not perfect b) made some bad decisions and c) isn't all that liberal, either. In other words, he's a politician.

Well, gee, that took a lot of courage and insight. And just what we needed to hear right now because.. because.. what exactly? Is he saying anything new, anything we don't know, offering any solutions? No, it's just a pissy little slap at the only hope we have short term for keeping this country from slipping even further down into hell.

Thanks, Greg. Whatta guy.

[genius]

75. I think he has some doubts about Kerry he wants answered

So it would be great if Kerry answered them or if his supporters answered them in a non-insulting way. Greg's one of those rare reporters who's unbiased. He's brought out enough evidence that an honest prosecutor could get a conviction against all Jeb, Junior and Senior and other Republicans on such serious charges that we would never have to worry about them again. Occassionally his lack of bias hits us and we need to look at it and ask, "What can we do to re-assure people who have these concerns?" Most Democrats trust Greg and, if he has these concerns, you better bet a lot of other people do too.

[incapsulated]

76. Oh, really...

C'mon, now. Kerry supporters and others have answered these "questions" and charges over and over on this forum. Does Greg expect a personal call? I didn't see anything in this piece expressing concern about how we need to "reassure people who have these concerns". Not at all. It was a bitch session. Here's how it wrapped up, not with expressions of concern about how we explain Kerry's "problems" to voters, not demanding answers, just this:

Remember, comrades, I'm only asking questions, here. I'm sorry if the answers make you uncomfortable about your favorite rich guy.


I know what you're going to say. "Isn't Bush worse?"


By a long shot. But asking if Kerry is as bad as Bush is like asking if a slap in the face is as painful as a brick to the skull.


But don't you get tired of being slapped around by privileged politicos on hypocrisy hyper-drive -- then having to applaud? It can't be pleasant, no matter how many pretty balloons they drop on your head.

Like I said, this was piss in everyone's cornflakes self-indulgence. It offered nothing but a rehash of every criticism that has been thrown at Kerry from the left since February. It offers no solutions and poses no real questions, other than "don't you feel like a dick to have to support this guy?" Gee, that's helpful.