Trying to analyze what kind of people would vote for *

[Mari333]

I was at a meeting the other night, and at the end of the meeting in my town, I mentioned that my stepson was stationed at Abu Ghraib and wanted to come home (someone mentioned politics)..
another man from the meeting said he was a Vietnam Vet, and he sighed with sadness when I mentioned having a kid over there..he said "Im sorry...I was in Vietnam, its a crime that your stepson is there"..
as we were leaving, another man, in his mid 40's , before "rushing" out the door, said " I JUST WANT TO SAY TO YOU SIR I AM PROUD OF YOUR SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY AND TO YOU MA AM IM PROUD OF YOUR STEPSON "
I said.."Um, my stepson is standing at the prison where torture and abuse occured last year from the previous unit standing there, sodomizing of inmates, children, women, and all condoned by the top brass including Rumsfeld...believe me he does NOT want to be there"
The guy looked at me red faced and said
"oh that wasnt torture just people messing around...." and he rushed out the door FAST and left the meeting..

now, what is with these people ????? Is there something in their own lives that absolutely refuses to look at truth? What state of denial are they in?
I have noticed a phenomenon...many of these * voters are people WHO HAVE NEVER SERVED A DAY IN THE MILITARY
and if they have, they are still trying to justify why they did (such as the lying swift boat guys)
and they often are white men, heterosexual, and seem to have issues with their own masculinity (or their definition of what masculinity is)
as for women who would vote for *, the ones I have met arent too bright, and would prefer their husbands tell them who to vote for..also, the ones I have met here are usually ultra religious and vote for who their husbands tell them to vote for ..
Nonetheless, I sure would like to hear an analysis of the character flaws that people in here have seen of anyone, at this point, who would vote for *
I know I read somewhere that 50% of the US public has an IQ under 100...and with the educational system completely collapsing, and 25% of the US public functionally illiterate, this speaks volumes about the still enormous amount of people out there who would vote for this moronic little turd in the WH...
carry on.............................

[xchrom]

1. even kristin breitweiser voted for bush

it's simply impossible to fathom conservative politics at this juncture -- you can't seperate theocracy loving delusionals from minimal government fanatics{i.e. tax break fanatics}.
the absolute failure in iraq should have this a no contest election months agao -- but the public still supports bush in numbers that seem fantastic.
and they aren't all red necks.
btw -- i wish peace and glad home comings in your house.

[Mari333]

18. It seems those that are "comfortable" and havent lost their jobs

and live in isolation, like my brother, are * lovers..he has also never served in the military, and is in his mid 40's..he has no access to other ideas, and prefers not to think for himself..he is also embroiled in odd, chest thumping, insecure versions of what being a 'man' is..sort of a PromiseKeepers mentality..
How odd that we grew up in the same house ....

[NC_Nurse]

2. Well, let's see

Reality TV remains highly popular.
Bill O'Liely, Sean Asshannity and the rest still on TV.
RW talk radio like Rush still dominating radio.
Walmart large and in charge in retail.

I think people just don't know and don't seem to care about true reality, only fake reality. Is it stupidity? maybe. Is it ignorance? maybe. Is it lack of community? Probably.

It sucks, that's for sure. :shrug:

[Hutzpa]

68. Its lack of being stupid, knowing that you are stupid...

Acknowledgment is one hell of a word, its a 15 letter word, sooo long some don't know it even exist. Now see how the predicament people in America are in, the 50%, thats a lot of stupid people floating around in this place. They can be the only one that could not see anything wrong with what this plunker has done. Sometimes you just wanna smack some of them at the back of their head to knock some senses forward, just to give them that rush of sensible blood they are missing.


The sad story is they know these fact thats why their mission is to keep the country divided , the longer it stays divided the better it is for them, this is the reason why I say the SAGA continues.



:spank:

[nostamj]

3. other than the wealthy

who actually benefit from *'s economic policies (the fact that he's destroying the environment and bankrupting the country's economic future and it's place in the world community doesn't register on their balance sheets),

the only people supporting * are those that have bought into the BushCo 'trifecta' of Hate, Fear and Ignorance. it's a cynical manipulation that keeps people from voting in THEIR best interest...

[Strelnikov_]

19. But When 19% Think They Are In The Top 1%

. . . it makes for a lot of faux wealthy, watching "Faux News", and voting for a faux leader.

And another 20 percent said that they expected to be there one day.

I have heard the term 'politics of aspiration' applied to this dynamic. For myself, the term "Potemkin Village" comes to mind.

From: Cynthia Tucker, "Working poor can't expect any help from Washington"
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=15074

. . .

"The myth of Horatio Alger success is so powerful that few concede they live at the lower levels of financial attainment. If they do, it's just a temporary condition -- or so they believe. A Time-CNN poll conducted during the 2000 presidential election asked voters whether they were in the top 1 percent of income earners. Nineteen percent responded that they were."

[Mari333]

21. I read that..!! You have to make over 300,000 a YEAR to be top 1%

and yet people think they are in the top 1%..!! my god, they have no clue whatsoever..not a clue..

[Hutzpa]

69. These where the same people doing the lynching

not too long ago, being proud of their photo being taken next to a Blackman after being lynch. They are good for one thing, they don't ask questions they just do as the other haters/bigots do. We have been unable to eradicate these fools. So they have become a VIRUS whereas they keep resurfacing every-now-an-again.


This is my thought to-wards them :nuke:

you can draw your conclusion from that.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. They tend to be one issue people or bigoted

at least the few I know. There was a senior citizen whom I helped learn how to work her computer-even had my husband fix hers at her home for no charge (at the time I was volunteering at a Senior Center). She thought we were great-until she found out we were-gasp-Muslims! Then all the hatred and bigotry came out. She still emails me hate stuff from the Repukes, and has told me because of my beliefs I have no right to "vote or to breed", which I found to be rather chilling. Realize I had done nothing to insult or hurt her-just went out of my way to be friendly and helpful.

The other one I know who will vote for Bush is a Right to Lifer. This one issue means more to her than anything else-even though she has lost a job and her house directly because of Bush-she will never vote for someone who is pro-choice.

[PatriotGames]

7. People like that shouldn't be allowed to vote or breed.

[Mari333]

8. One issue voters, or tapping into the underlying racism

that exists in this country...against anyone not white, heterosexual, or christian (their version of christianity)..
I met a black woman at the Methodist church here who , when we started talking about Alan Keyes , she said " OH THAT WHINY IDIOT..HOW MUCH MONEY IS HE GETTING FROM THE GOP...HES CRAZY"
We also laughed a lot when we talked about how , if Laci Peterson were a black woman, she would get NO coverage on the nightly news..
Yes, one issue voters..altho my mom, who is a one issue voter, wont be voting at all this year...she was hit hard by the * economy, and wont vote at all...which is one less vote for *....
So it boils down to
1. people who vote one issue voting (abortion, gay marriage, etc)
2. people who buy all the hype and sound bytes put out by Rove and his minions to RW talk show hosts and the media because they are too lazy to find things out for themselves
3. people who cant read ( and there are a lot of them), which means they have never read the Constituion or the Bill of Rights
4. people who refuse to see the world in anything but black and white and refuse to think critically and see the grey areas and complicated areas
5. men who are afraid of their own personal definitions of masculinity being threatened, and the false power those definitions hold for them who also buy the hype about Bush being some kind of cowboy ( when all he ever was was a spoiled fratboy cheerleader)
I guess it will take more to wake the public up
What saddens me is, that people think having a secretive Imperial Emperor is just fine...
when , in fact, those morons in the WH, in Congress, and in every public service sector, ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SERVANTS OF THE PEOPLE NOT KINGS
dark days these times, indeed dark dark days.

[Malva Zebrina]

22. Put her on "block this sender" list

[Vickers]

5. Scared people.

You can break it down any way you want, but scared folks are the ones who are voting for Georgie.

- scared of Islam

- scared of poor folks

- scared of black folks

- scared of gays/lesbians

- scared of education and/or educated people

- scared of free-thinking people

etc. etc.

[TrogL]

27. People who are afraid are authoritarian

[underseasurveyor]

50. In a nut shell, (The logic of my repig, bush loving BIL)

You're right. Dim-son voters are scared of "the bad people" that could get "us" at any time. But they are also afraid of the powers of their own government. So they get a false sense of security by siding with their gov. and rah rah go get them terrorist because they don't want to appear in any way, shape or form to be sympathetic to foreigners because that "might" bring attention to themselves somehow as terrorist enablers that will be picked up and locked away in gitmo forever.

I kid you not. This is the basic conversation I had with a repig BIL.
Him: The terrorist took our freedom away on 9/11.

Me: No they didn't. Your own gov. signed the PA that are slowly eroding your rights away. The terrorist didn't sign any of that legislation infringing upon your constitutional rights. Our own gov. did that.

Him: Who attacked us? Osama BL did. They are the ones who took our freedom away. We have to have the PA to protect us, it gives the gov. access to find the cells of those that would hurt us. Don't you want to find the bad guys before they get us?

Me: I'm not to worried about the bad guys. If our foreign policies didn't cause death and destruction to other countries because they got what we want, we wouldn't be so hated around the world today.

Him: Oh that's a crock`o`shit. We help more countries around the world than any other nation in the world. We give em free food and free medicines and free.......on and on.

Miscellaneous back`n`forth conversation, homeless, welfare, waco, ruby ridge, nra & 2nd amend. yadda yadda yadda............

Me: Do a google search on the PA, OBL and Iraq.......He interrupts.

Him: OH NO I won't do that. You have to be careful what words you use over the internet. Did you know that if you use certain words or phrases they have special monitors that detect those and alert HLS and then they send the men in black to your house wanting to know why you want such information. I don't want to end up as a suspect in gitmo with no right to an attorney. Are you willing to take that chance?

Me: I do it everyday. Sounds like to me you're more afraid of your own gov.

Him: Well I don't want them to think I'm involved with terrorists. Cuz I'm not.

Me: So tell me again, who is it that has taken your freedom away?

Him: THE TERRORIST DID when they attacked us or have you already forgotten that?

Me: *sigh*

Dim-son voters are afraid of terrorists and their own government getting them. They don't know which way to turn so they'll vote for the guy they see more fit to save their sorry spineless asses. They know not the dangers of siding with the bully they think will protect them.

[fujiyama]

63. OMG

I had such a similar conversation with a pro Bush person (he did vote for him in '00 but said he doesn't want to again so there may be some hope...but I sorta think he still will vote for him again) one day. He was a supporter of the war and I got onto talking about sources of terrorism. He claimed it was Syria, etc etc (basically he'd bought the neocon media talking points).

So I asked him which country the 9/11 hijackers were from. He didn't have a clue. I then told him it was Saudi Arabia. He was kinda confused.

Then I told him how they were very close to the current administration and to Bush's father especially...At that point I offered to send him some links on the internet and he just kinda shrugged and said, "I don't have time for that...let's get off talking 'bout politics".

These people can't face the truth. That was the first time I had met someone so ignorant of everything(most of the people I usually talk politics with are informed liberals)... He's extremely paranoid of terrorism in general and believes that his suburb in the middle of no where could be a target.

[devinsgram]

6. Great question.

There seems to be something that we see that they are missing. It would really be worthwhile for someone to look into this. Why do some of us use our heads and thinking ability while some just believe whatever they are told.

Even if I'm told something that Kerry said, I still investigate and find out the facts. I think that most are too lazy to do this. And if that is the case then they deserve what they get. After all, that is exactly what happened in 2000.

[Mari333]

10. Critical thinking skills? Maybe thats what they are missing

I am disappointed in the US public that they dont seem to "care" if Fascism walks right in and steals the United States ...very disgusted by the lack of concern among people, and their lack of wanting to go out and find the truth..

[msmcghee]

14. Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.

I think devisngram is closest to the right answer here, so far.

This is a very fascinating question for me. I've spent a lot of time reading and pondering the answer. My own more extensive explanation for what devinsgram is onto is at the link below in my sig line if anybody cares to read it. It is a little long but I keep editing it and it keeps growing. :shrug:

But I believe there really is a basic difference in how people see the world and how we deal with it in our minds. And I believe those differences correlate pretty well with the conservative and liberal mindset these days in America - and explain a lot of the perplexing things going on today in politics, religion, etc.

Especially, I'd like any feedback about parts you agree or disagree with - as I'm always trying to refine my ideas on this topic.

[Mari333]

20. Good blurb on that website

and yes, I agree..we are third generation chimps, and justify in our own minds what we wish to believe, as animals..
evidently the Rove machine tapped into "some" aspect of that, and has been dutifully doing so since Sept 11...tapped into something, some tribal fear of annihilation, and set up to the illiterate, and those who dont think for themselves, a boogeyman (Islam) as the bad guys...
Its the mentality in the US of fear of a boogeyman...this has been used before by political manipulators of the public..the "commies", the "japs", and now its the "ragheads"...when Michael went to Iraq, he was angered and disgusted by some people in the unit that stated "Lets go kill some ragheads"
He told me they were the most ignorant people he had ever encountered...again, the illiteracy rates amongst many of the people on the ground over there are why things like the torture at Abu Ghraib did happen...and it took one kid, with a little savvy and a good mom who had no problem teaching her soldier son some values, to expose it..
and yet he recieves death threats for exposing the truth...
Thou shalt not Lie, as I recall, is biblical, and for a lot of people who wander around stating they are christians and support Bush, it seems they dont practice what they preach.
I scratch my head and the gung ho mentality that refuses to accept the concept that a lot of the chest beaters and macho posturing about the military doing no wrong brings out so many angry people who exist in this country...
It must be fear of truth...and fear of truth in their own lives, and fear of looking in the mirror at themselves, and their own personal power trips they are on...
That seems, to me, like one hell of a shallow life to live....

[devinsgram]

29. I agree with you,

the sad part is that most people do not want to bother finding out what has happened or what is going on till after is has affected them on a personal basis.

Why is it also that some people vote against their best interest when religion is concerned. Example being; a family that is living on a week to week paycheck, then main breadwinner gets laid off, they have no healthcare, but the preacher at their church tells thems they need to pray for *'s re-selection because he is a the one that God has chosen to be in charge. That one stumsps me.

[Mari333]

30. My husband said, at the beginning of this fake war

when he and I were being harassed for being anti war (even with a kid over there)...
"Until people have their own ox gored, they dont seem to care what happens to other people"
I am afraid that the concept of compassion, and empathy, has been so lost in this country, that I dont even think it exists at this point..
Look how many people have not a whit of care or concern about the deaths of the soldiers, or the torture pics that occured at Abu Ghraib..how can they so easily ignore it?
a person without compassion, or empathy, imho, has lost their soul.

[devinsgram]

33. We have become an I, me and mine society

along with a throw away society. My only conselation is knowing that eventually they will have to pay for how they acted. I don't mean that to seem harsh or mean, but we all pay for our actions in time. What we put out always returns to us in spades.

This why I know that * will not be re-selected. When you lie and lie and lie and lie, you will be just like the spider that gets caught in its own web. Sometimes it takes awile, but always happens.

[jbm]

40. Great paper..

Thanks for sharing it. I have been pondering the same questions. You might be interested in reading this article:

http://www.brain-mind.com/LimbicUnconscious.html

I find it really interesting to read about how our minds evolved new thinking abilities in the relatively recent past,because that tells me that there is hope we'll get better at thinking as time goes by. I'm no expert at all, but my impression is that we developed the ability to think in the abstract not so long ago. I'm hoping that our next step will be to evolve in some way that allows us to think with clarity. It's bad enough that two people looking at the same situation will view it differently, but even the SAME person looking at the same situation on a different day will interpret it in a new way. That we can function at all when our perceptions are so flawed is truly amazing. I absolutely agree with you that liberals have the edge here cause they accept the flaw in humanity, while conservatives will insist that their way is the right way.

The dem underground is terrific for a lot of reasons, but my favorite thing is that like minded people from all walks of life can come here and brainstorm the topics that intrigue them. Al Gore may never be president, but he did a great thing when he gave us the internet.

[msmcghee]

41. Wow, thanks for the link.

Are you a psychologist?

[jbm]

44. no psychologist here..

I'm just interested in how we think because I've spent so many years trying to understand the conservative mind. Someone else passed that link on to me awhile back. I've also been told by people far wiser than I that if you really want to understand the human mind, you have to begin with the evolution of plants. I know that sounds sort of strange, but I think it's really true.

If we manage to avoid extinction long enough, our ability to grasp and perceive concepts and realities is going to take a giant leap forward someday. In the meantime, I think we can make the world a much better place if we can figure out ways to compensate for the lack of those abilities.

just my opinion though! :)

[msmcghee]

45. These things are fascinating . .

. . to me too. I went to the website where that paper is hosted and found a year's worth of reading. http://brain-mind.com Thanks again.

There are not that many people who have opinions that are not just dogma disguised as thought. There's never a reason to attach the word "just" to "my opinion" when it is the result of an honest attempt to figure things out - like your's obviously is.

And that's my opinion. :toast:

[The River]

42. If you are really interested

in understanding the reasons people think and act the way they do, go Google the works of Ken Wibur. It's only taken me a decade of reading, thinking about and observing human nature to understand why individuals and groups of like minded individuals think and behave the way they do. Mr. Wilbur has developed the closest thing I have ever seen to a complete and accurate GUT (Grand Unified Theory)of both the material and the non-material worlds as they have evolved to present day. He has taken the whole of evolution and laid it out in a way which is reasonably easy to understand. The following quote lists the first tier or levels of consciousness using colors (like a rainbow) to show what types of behaviors and identifications occur at various levels of development.
"Those first-tier waves (of consciousness) are, very briefly:
beige: instinctual;
purple: magical-animistic, tribal;
red: egocentric, power, feudalistic;
blue: mythic-membership, conformist, fundamentalist, ethnocentric, traditional;
orange: excellence, achievement, progress, modern;
green: postmodern, multicultural, sensitive, pluralistic."

There is a second tier or level of consciousness which see's and understands ALL of the first tier levels but I won't even try to go into that here. But, I will give you a relevant example or two of whats going on in first tier consciousness.

1. Why Democracy absolutely will not work in Iraq (for at least several generations).
To begin with, Democracy is primarily an Orange level form of self governance. It is rational and pluralistic. It was an idea ahead of it's time given that the founding fathers were primarily at Blue level. ( one of the nice things about consciousness is that anyone at any time can leap ahead (or back) at any given time, if only temporarily.) Their Orange level idea of Democracy was tainted though with their Blue level values in as much as their version of Democracy was only for white male landowners ( mythic membership restricted by ethnicity). OK... so where is the "average" level for current day Iraqi consciousness? Which level of identification is most prevalent? We know they are more closely aligned with their tribe, religion and ethnicity than with mythic membership in an artificial nation-state known as Iraq. It took the power of Red, in the form of a brutal dictator, to hold it all together. Without some strong central government to use raw power to keep these disparate groups under control, it will all fall apart into tribal groups and various versions of Islam.

2. Why conservatives just plain do not "get it".
I've seen countless posts here at DU over the past 2+ years wondering out loud why conservative types are so stupid and selfish. The simple answer is that despite the external appearances of their being normal on the outside (being productive law abiding citizens of a Democracy), on the inside they are still stuck in the lower levels of consciousness.
The "Christian Right" = a mix of Purple (religion as codified "magic") & Blue ( membership in the "myth" that is their version of America) They are now willing to use Red to get their way. They are intolerant (fearfull) of any religion but theirs. They are also very ethnocentric. Anyone who isn't one of them (white Christian) is a potential enemy.
The "might makes right" gung-ho lets kill them all and let god sort it out crowd = Red Red Red! These are the people who were and always have been controlled by use of force. Criminals are also Red.
It takes both Blue (conformity to law) and Orange(the law itself) to keep them in check

Ralph Nader! Ralph is a pathological Green. He is so progressive that he has lost sight of the fact that not everyone is at Green or even Orange. He believes (and rightly so) that IF everyone was at Orange, the only rational thing to do would be to vote Green. Unfortunately, he just can't see that half (or more) of the country is at Blue or below.

One thing keep in mind before I close. I see so many posters who are confused by things that seem so irrational (even within the more evolved social memes) While everyone is possessed with the ability think in rational ways, too often we don't because of the way we view our own place within the whole of humanity. We hold either egocentric, ethnocentric (limited group) or worldcentric views of ourselves.
"Me vs. everyone", "Us vs. them" or "ALL of US in it together" What seems rational to an egocentric person will be seen as simple selfishness by the more inclusive modes of identification. What passes for "rational thought" by ethnocentric or theocentric groups is that their race or their religion is right and everyone else is wrong or inferior.
Modes of thinking (within and particular level of consciousness)
Pre-rational thought (magic, religion, myth)
Rational thought (science)
Trans-rational thought. (all of the above and more)

Another thing to remember, regardless of your current level of social, political or personal development, ALL of the previous levels are still an integral part of who you are and how you view the world. Thats why Liberals, Progressives and greens can still be Patriotic (Blue) and religious (Purple) but still insist that we can do better by everyone.
I would have to say that most of the membership here at DU is at an Orange or Green level of development and some are on the cusp of jumping into 2nd tier consciousness. Thats the good news. The bad news is that lower level consciousness fears higher levels while higher levels seem to ignore or ridicule lower levels. This explains, in part, why freepers seems so hatefull towards and fearfull of progressives AND why we tend to ridicule them and their responses. We should know better.

The floor is open to questions...

[msmcghee]

46. I find your first sentence very irritating . .

. . although you may have been trying to be helpful, in a clumsy way. It implies that my interest in this subject is not sincere.

What you describe seems like an interesting window. Some day I may look through it more closely. But at this point, it seems to be attractive to someone who thinks there is only one window to look through at life. And I find that off-putting.

In the meantime, welcome to DU - I think.

[The River]

47. Typical Green meme response

You've responded in a condescending way without even checking it out.
You criticize without even attempting to understand.
You haven't had time between my post and yours to read, let alone digest or understand, any of Ken Wilburs works. If you had, you would discover that it is not a single window through which to view the world but a collection and synthesis of all the windows man has devised to date: The man has created an entirely new field of psychological study; Integral Psychology.

(Amazon.com: Books: Integral Psychology : Consciousness, Spirit ...
... Just Might Get It Book Description The goal of an "integral psychology" is to honor and embrace every legitimate aspect of human consciousness under one roof. ... )

BTW..I've been registered at DU for more than 2 years. My low post count just means that I don't believe in posting "me too" responses or personal opinion just to hear myself type.

As for your "welcome to DU - I think"? Go Cheney yourself.

[msmcghee]

48. I replied in an irritated way, not condenscending.

Of course I didn't read any of his works. I was going by your lengthy description.

I was a little suspect of the view (because of your approach) but I was open to looking further at some later time.

A good sign of dogma is the holder's opinion that unless I adopt it - I am not serious.

Another is when they get angry and tell me to get Cheneyed if I call them on their rudeness. That kind of anger only comes from having one's faith-based world-view beliefs questioned.

You are a just another true believer who has found some grand theory that feels good to you own prejudices.

I don't think I will waste my time looking any further into this.

[The River]

52. Read my sig line please

before you accuse me of being a "true believer"..lol
I've rejected more dogma than you've ever thought of.
You were the one who started the second to last paragraph of your own paper with "The title of this paper is true."?
Where did I question your sincerity or say you weren't serious?
Irritation is a feeling (the state of feeling irritated), not a response. When a person is irritated by something or someone, they can respond with anger, condescension, humor, ridicule or logic but they cannot respond with a feeling. They respond because of the feeling.
Why were you so irritated anyhow? Didn't you say:

"Especially, I'd like any feedback about parts you agree or disagree with - as I'm always trying to refine my ideas on this topic."

Without coming right out and saying that most of your paper looks like a self serving excuse for your own overly emotional nature, I figured I would post something that might help you understand your topic a whole lot better.

Your initial response showed how overly emotional you are.
If you want to keep swapping posts, that fine with me but be
forewarned. I did 3 tours in 'Nam, raised a daughter by myself,
hold a degree in "Internet Psychology" and have voted Democratic since the first JFK.

[msmcghee]

53. OK, I'll bite.

Putting your rejection of dogma in your sig line could be projection. People often decry those faults in others that are the faults that most torment their own lives.

Actually, let's back off a bit here. I can see that we are both at a place where we will likely read/hear whatever the other says in the worst possible way. I'll admit that I was guilty of that by my last post - my response to the one where you told me to get Cheneyed, or whatever.

When you say, "Your initial response showed how overly emotional you are." I think that shows you doing the same thing - reading too much into the words, negatively - as at the time I was not feeling strong emotions, though I was miffed a bit by your first sentence.

You ask, "Where did I question your sincerity or say you weren't serious?" I thought I pointed out very clearly that if you start a statement to someone with, "If you are really serious about . . . " then that implies that they are not - and that's what I found irritating.

I then gave you the opportunity, by suggesting that perhaps you were just being clumsy, to say that wasn't what you meant. But you didn't take it.

You just said, "Without coming right out and saying that most of your paper looks like a self serving excuse for your own overly emotional nature, I figured I would post something that might help you understand your topic a whole lot better."

Do you think that might be just a little condescending? That seems to verify my suspicion that you actually were putting me down in the first line of your post. And it also seems to verify my suspicion that your sig line may be classic projection. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now and assume that you are just being combative because of our previous nasty exchange.

Please understand that I am writing this with no feeling of animosity toward you. Just trying to be honest. Picture this old hippie smiling. :hippie: I am in awe somewhat, of anyone who served three tours in Nam - and congratulations on raising a daughter by yourself. What branch were you in, MOS?

Even if I don't find your GUT very interesting at this point, and even though you seem more interested in proselytizing a pet theory and putting me down than a real discussion of the topic - that doesn't mean that I wouldn't find you an interesting person to talk to if we can get past the poor start.

But what the heck is Internet Psychology? It sounds like it could be interesting - especially if it deals with understanding the kind of animosity that has just been exchanged between us - at least the parts of it that were affected by this medium.

[The River]

56. Please don't bite!

OK...lol..a partial truce then. I'm an old hippie too.
We are an endangered species!

As for my sig line. No projection at all. It's been a
policy for many decades now. I've lost a few friends
to the born agains and other cults over the years.
I think your response to my initial post was where the projection occurred. Thats why I thought you were being too sensitive.
I turn people on to resources like that all the time and no one takes
offense. When you do it in person, your voice full of
enthusiasm and a genuine sense of helpfulness, they
say "thanks, I'll check it out.

One of the biggest problems with on line posting is this:
All the clues we get from real life conversations are missing
here. Things like body language, tone of voice and facial
expressions don't exist in cyberspace. Emoticons and
smiley faces are poor substitutes. If we had met at a conference
on Triune Brain theory and I read your paper and made that comment,
you would have known instantly how it was intended.

The only thing I took offense at was the
welcome..maybe. That kind of welcome isn't
very welcoming. You think?

USN 68-71 SM2 on exit. (and yes, I am beyond pissed
at the Not-So-Swift Bloaters!)

Internet psych....
A strange voyage into a land of where things
may or may not be what or whom they claim to be.

The anonymous nature of the medium encourages
people to experiment in ways which might be
dangerous to life, limb or mental health
in the real world. Confused teens can
experiment with gender role playing.
Support groups for almost any lifestyle
or aliment are common.

It's a place where anyone can be accepted by
and become a part of a group. People who
have never fit in with the cool groups in real life
can belong on line. Their looks or handicaps don't matter
in cyberspace. It's all in what you type/post.

Speaking of posting...
User bulletin boards (BB's) have long been known
as "bitch boards" because a lot of posters just whine and
complain about everything. We do a lot of bitching about
* here but only because he deserves it!
Drama queens are common. They make everything seem like a crisis
with their OMFG!!!! headlines
Contrarians; doesn't matter what you post, they will disagree.
just because they like to argue..even when they contradict themselves.
Look-At-Me's.. they don't post much meaningful content. They tend to just agree with other posters. They just want to be acknowledged.
Lurkers... they come to read.
Leaders.. in any on line group, 20% of the
membership post 80% of the content. The remaining 80%
post 20% or less (like here) We have a lot more lurkers
than posters. Users like Will Pitt and Bev Harris make
it all worth reading.

Life cycle of a board. They all have one. I think that soon after
Kerry wins, most of us will go back to what we were
doing before our government was stolen. Or, we may
migrate to another site dedicated to correcting all the
damage * has done or watchdog sites that monitor the RW spin machine.
I hope that many of our younger members will stay involved
with trans-formative political causes on line. It's their
future more than mine.

I'd love to keeping going but life beckons.
No hard feelings then.
pax
river

[msmcghee]

58. A lot of interesting paths from here.

I am very interested in several things here. What you describe as Internet psychology is certainly one of them.

I just started a thread in Bush, Conservatives and Conservatism under the heading "Are the minds of liberal and conservatives different?"

It is a slower forum and this being an infinitely deep topic that could go almost anywhere, certainly in most of the directions we each have alluded to recently, this is a forum that won't run off the page long before I can think through a response.

I probably could have come up with a better topic heading - so don't feel restricted by that and feel free to hijack as needed.

If you're interested (or anyone else) find me there.

[truth2power]

55. What????

Honestly, mcghee, River's response didn't seem condescending to me.

Dunno, but sometimes the expressive component gets lost in written communication. I was just reading thru here. Just my $.02.

[msmcghee]

59. Thanks for your input. n/t

[readmylips]

9. Even some homeless love bush....

A homeless woman I know speaks saintly of bush. She wanted to clean my house for exchange of rooming. I told her my house is spotless and that I was a Liberal Democrat. I sent her off to my conservative republican neighbors. They slammed the door on her face. I called her back and gave her a few dollars, cold water and a sandwich. She still yelled back at me, vote bush he is God's man.

[Mari333]

11. she bought the hype...

and ten to one she probably cant read..all sound bytes, or she heard the WH spin from her seat at a faith based funded shelter..

[displacedtexan]

15. A homeless woman at church (UU, of couse) saw my Kerry T-shirt...

... and called me stupid for supporting Kerry.

I just don't get it.

[slor]

12. Well, I know the stereotypical "wealthy" are leaving him...

I live in Cincinnati, and there is a very affluent neighborhood called Hyde Park that has Kerry/Edwards yard signs growing like weeds all over the place.

[susu369]

13. "bu$h* is such a handsome man"

words from an idiot female coworker. Go figure...

Actually, I find the man repulsive in all aspects.

[AZCat]

16. Yes ~50% have IQs under 100

It would be 50%, but some have an IQ of 100. It's set that way- 100 is set as the median of all of us, so half are below and half are above (except the people who are right at 100).

For every smart person you know, there is an equally dumb person out there. But that doesn't mean that they can't see the evil in Bush. I know plenty of intelligent people who have rationalized his actions- and therefore their support for him. And I know plenty of people who aren't that bright that don't support him.

I'm sorry you had to encounter this jackass, because I don't think he will change his mind when faced with evidence that his views aren't correct, and it just ends up making you angry. Just remember we are all here and support you.

[Mari333]

17. and the correlation between poverty and illiteracy is astounding

http://nces.ed.gov/naal/

the WH spin machine depends HEAVILY on illiteracy ...and heavily on poverty being the norm .

[msmcghee]

25. Exactly . .

You have to learn to enjoy using your mind, to develop your reasoning ability at an early age. If you haven't been at least exposed to this by age 3 or 4 even, you probably won't develop much of that ability later in life - regardless of IQ. If you are smart but haven't learned to enjoy using your mind to guide your decisions in life - then you'll simply use it the lazy way, to justify your prejudices.

That's why the right is instinctively so opposed to programs like Head Start. If they can keep young children away from creative intellectual development until age six or so - that ensures that there will always be a majority of mindless ideologues in America ready to vote for the political hacks that keep them in power.

[Mari333]

28. Head Start has been cut here, also

social programs for literacy and critical thinking skills are massively losing ground..it is imperative to the imperialists in the WH that the US populace be as stupid as possible. I am sure they have been planning on creating that for a long time.

[Junkdrawer]

23. Authoritarian Personality

The authoritarian personality does not want to give orders, their personality type wants to take orders. People with this type of personality seek conformity, security, stability. They become anxious and insecure when events or circumstances upset their previously existing world view. They are very intolerant of any divergence from what they consider to be the normal (which is usually conceptualized in terms of their religion, race, history, nationality, culture, language, etc.) They tend to be very superstitious and lend credence to folktales or interpretations of history that fit their preexisting definitions of reality (thus the Founding Fathers of the US are conceptualized of as supporters of white nationalism.) They think in extremely stereotyped ways about minorities, women, homosexuals, etc. They are thus very dualistic- the world is conceived in terms of absolute right (their way) Vs. absolute wrong (the "other" whether African American, liberal, intellectual, feminist, etc.)

http://www.gossamer-wings.com/soc/Notes/race/tsld007.htm

[Mari333]

26. thanks for that link

Ive met a ton of those kinds of people..actually, they run the city council in my town and tried to pass a "City of Character" referendum in the town...I googled City of Character and in 5 minutes found out it was a biblical based agenda started by a wealthy oil company CEO cloaked in secular language..
Luckily a few other people were on to the hype in town, and it didnt pass...another theocratic agenda stopped by a few people who think critically..
sadly, one of the council members stated, when she recieved my letter telling her I would sic the ACLU on them if they passed it, "Oh, that woman who is against this should learn something about authority !!"
My friend at the meeting just said SEIG HEIL! to the councilwoman, who I doubt understood what my friend meant..
Evidently the * admin counts on people liking to be slapped around and abused by authority figures...
what led these people to those fears?
why cant they take control of their own lives?
why cant they think for themselves?
what kind of society do they want? Is this why so many embraced Hitler?
why do they follow, and not lead?
why are they afraid of new ideas?
what happened to them as children that they are afraid of new ideas, new concepts, and more complex ways of thinking?

[Hogarth]

24. Kerry on ...

Yes; I like the way that rolls off the tongue.

[Kazak]

31. If it's any consolation at all...

this white guy won't be voting for Bush*, nor any Republican ever.

On edit: Furthermore, I fully encourage my wife to vote for the candidate that she sees most fit for the job (as if I didn't know who that was).

[Mari333]

32. Oh yes, my husband and sons are all decent white men

and all heterosexual decent white men who wont be voting for Bush...yay...even my heterosexual white male stepson in Iraq wont be voting for Bush...yay.
I think the fear some of these guys (and gals) have is fear of change, fear of something unknown, fear of losing some shallow sense of power they have in their own lives, so they latch onto an authoritarian personality thats rigid, with rigid ideas, and they wont sway from them no matter what because in some way it makes them feel "safe".
so they buy into any tripe they are told, whether it be spin from the WH, or some tripe they hear from their pastors..
maybe, ultimately, its fear of their own deaths.
Because, after all, death is a certainty...the human race seems to not like change for some reason..
But change is part of life..and change and death are both certainties in life...thats just the way life is.
It boils down to being a fake power and control issue, really.
Cheney can pretend he has control and power, but he will die from a massive heart attack one of these days, and so will all the CEOs at Enron die from something, and every CEO at Halliburton...
they wont be able to take their monies with them.
they think they have power and control, but its all an illusion, in the end.

[chookie]

34. My weird story

I have been friends with this guy for 20 years. Over the last few years, he has gone over to The Dark Side. He used to be a very fun, interesting, charming fellow, and now he is nothing more than a parody of a wacky freeper who is best avoided.

He WORSHIPS George W Bush. He has an orgasm just saying his name. The weird thing is that this guy is a Viet Nam vet, who is an atheist, and who has had a decades long career in a field relating to evolutionary biology.

He is so nuts that I don't discuss politics with him, but I did inquire as to what he thought of Bush's religiousity. He astounded me by saying that Bush was NOT a religious man. Kerry, on the other hand, is a wacky Catholic, he says. When I questioned him about evangelicals being a major bloc of Bush support, he denied this, saying that only black Democrats and Muslims are wacky fundamentalists. :wtf:

He thinks that over-population and global warming are the two gravest threats to the planet. But when asked about Bush's policies which run counter to these concerns, he said that Bush is a progressive force in science, who has done more to advance scientific research than any other president, and that if I thought any differently, it was because my mind had been poisoned by the liberal media.

Isn't this interesting? Where he and Bush OBVIOUSLY disagree, this guy is in total denial. He will ignore major aspects of Bush's life and temperment in order to justify his hero worship of him. Hallmarks of the authoritarian personality complex is total subservience to a perceived authority, extreme judgementalism, and talent for contradiction -- I think he scores high on all these points.

He also said very proudly that peace has been discredited, and that mankind has embraced war. He said it was only a matter of time before I saw the light....

My friend has become a classic Authoritarian. Gee, I remember years ago wondering what it was like to be in Germany in the 30s, and now I know. It was disturbing to hear someone I knew talk this way....

I have often posted here that I believe that authoritarianism is a social pathology, and is certainly the dominant force in our society today. It is the authoritarians and fundamentalists who are controlling the world's agenda -- and they've hijacked the rest of us.

What I don't fully understand is where wacky ideas about politics end, and mental illness begins. I truly have suspicions about the mental health of this guy, and I am not saying that merely because we disagree. But he had a stroke a few years ago that really changed him for the worse -- he became very paranoid and aggressive afterwards, on top of having serious memory disfunction. He may be in the early stages of a kind of dementia. He also stopped being a heavy drinker cold turkey -- I wonder if the dry drunk syndrome, which allegedly also effects His Chimperial Highness, is a part of this, as some alcoholics cope by substituting another obsession for their obsession with alcohol. He also has been on anti-depressants long-term -- and anecdotally I can attest to certain people who become paranoid and aggressive using these drugs long-term if they were a subclinical bipolar.

He's certainly right that many have embraced War as the highest human achievement. ANYONE who thinks that all of their anger and hatred and intolerance are just going to disappear someday are mistaken. Authoritarians are endlessly creative in identifying new enemies. Today the Muslims, tomorrow, who? They would happily kill us, their fellow Americans too. They have already dehumanized us.

I'm one of those people who are particularly alarmed by how things have evolved in our nation. If we don't pull back from the brink now, things are going to get much worse, worse than any of us can imagine.

[Mari333]

35. ask him if he reads Ayn Rand...and if he thinks he is John Galt

I have met a guy like this too..Im just curious..maybe thats where his fascination comes from, some weird Ayn Rand philosophy and John Galt delusion..............

[CityZen-X]

36. They Are Mushroom National's

Those who are comfortable in the dark, and thrive on mass quantities of Bu$h*t!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

37. the same kind of people that believed in hitler...see my sig line

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Malva Zebrina]

39. Beats me and I cannot figure it out

a recent visit from my daughter and her freeper husband was a total disaster and ended with bad feelings all around. My daughter told me to "shut the f**k up, in a perfect paroday of Dick Cheney. My heart was broken. :shrug:

The first thing to happen:--I sew fabric coasters and sell them on a makeshift table in front of my house. I sewed a set of six coasters , using nautical flags as the motif, since I live on the coast where many people have boats. I use the ones I screw up for my own use in my own home--one just happened to be a copy of the French flag. I was innocent--I used it because the three colors were easier to sew than some of the others. It is the letter "T" on a nautical flag.

He picked it up and began shouting about the "French flag"! "This is a French flag--you have a French flag!" <sigh> He looked a little sheepish then when I explained what it was. But is was obvious to me he was itching for a confrontation. I made up my mind not to bring up a damn thing about politics and avoided any mention of anything at all to do with it, but I do have a unobtrusive sign in my front yard flower garden upon which I daily update the numbers of American soldiers killed in Iraq because I want to acknowledge and honor in some way that which is not being reported and I want the rednecks driving down the road to see it in all it's harsh reality--all it says is "RIP" followed by the number. He saw that.

Then he brought up Somalia and Clinton's failure in taking vengeful action for the dragging of our soldier's bodies through the streets of Mogadishu. I let him shout on for a few minutes, then tried to discuss what happened there and that failed mission. This is not an uneducated man either. That is when I was screamed at to go f myself by my own daughter.

[Strelnikov_]

43. Well, I Think Miss Manners Would Strongly Support You

When you are a guest at someone else's home, you are on their 'home' court, and should simply change the subject if you do not like the opinions of the host (my, what nice weather we are having).

I am sure that, when the unemployment rate hits 25% in a few years, you will just knowingly smile when they say they were always Democrats, and it was just that Clinton's sexual improprieties made them support the GOP briefly.

[Mari333]

49. I swear to god, kids who scream at their parents need a good swift kick

off the property....
period.
I flew the French flag for a while on my flagpole..my neighbours arent real bright, I dont even think they knew what it was, which I find amusing.
Im sorry your daughter was being such a BRAT!!!! I know you love her, but its like I told one of my sons " I love you but I dont have to like your behaviour..and on my property you behave or get out".

[Tight_rope]

51. Greedy selfish people...who have never had to work a day in their life!

[skygazer]

62. No, that doesn't work

I know many low income people who are passionately for *. My daughter and her husband support him totally. It's much more complicated than simply saying "people who've never had to work a day in their lives."

What is it that these people see? I think it's a number of things. They hear "I'll cut taxes" and think they're going to get some money. They hear "the other guy will RAISE taxes" and they're afraid they'll lose money. They're afraid of all the boogiemen he conjures up - terrorists and Saddam and unrest and they'll come in the night and eat your babies.

He appeals to the lowest common denominator as well as those who have a lot of money and don't want to share it. He appeals to the ignorant who don't see that he's a fake cowboy. He insults and demeans his opponents - this appeals to the same people who love "Fear Factor" and "Jackass". He appeals to those who want simple black and white answers, who think there really is something as simple as "pure good" and "pure evil" in the world.

Or maybe he makes them feel smart...

[Comicstripper]

54. They're not bad people

really, they're victims. they are people who are ill-informed and, sadly, absorb GOP talking points as news. i was canvassing for kerry in VA (i live in MD), and a small, bright-seeming old woman touched me on the arm and said, "Oh, i'm one of those awful republicans." she seemed fairly well-informed, and i respected her opinion, until she said, "and you know, kerry flip-flops on a lot of things"
FLIP-FLOP is NOT a legitimate verb.
the people who vote for bush are people who don't know or don't comprehend the depth of the damage he's done to the country. for the most part, they're not wealthy business tycoons; if they were, he'd have less than one percent support. the vast majority are good people. they want jobs, peace (for the most part), and justice, they are just under the bizarre impression that george w bush has been giving us those things.

[callous taoboy]

66. Eggs Ackley-

My folks are prime example. Both are bright, educated people but were fully programmed by the likes of every thing the Scaiffe group touches.

[cosmicvortex20]

57. Its just a matter of perspective...

Everyone likes to think the other side is stupid. Everyone is bias, its human nature.

[Davis_X_Machina]

60. Never underestimate the power of the Spite Vote.

Excellent essay on the phenomenon here.

a snip:

Put your ear to the ground in this country, and you'll hear the toxic spite churning. It's partly the result of commercial propaganda and sexual desperation—a desperation far more common than is admitted.

[jeffrey_X]

61. People that are afraid to REALLY "feel" what is like to know the truth.

nm

[callous taoboy]

64. The latest Harper's

has a great piece by Lewis Lapham (Tentacles of Rage) on how the corporate/Mepublican smear machine has been gathering strength since Raygun. It is a must read and one in which I'd have difficulty paraphrasing. By the time Clinton got in it was well-oiled and the many-tentacled beast hunted him down (e.g. Lapham goes in to how Ken Starr went to Arkansas and sniffed every bar stool for Clinton's semen).

[JohnKleeb]

65. greedy people

Thankfully though, I can debate the one issue that most of my classmates will claim makes em support Bush, "tax cuts", gonna be pretty easy to explain that Kerry only wants to get rid of the tax cuts for the wealthiest, should be easier for me to explain than it was for me to explain Gore.

[fujiyama]

67. It's amazing

how similar that man's statements regarding Abu Ghraib are to Limbauigh's statements. I think Pigboy called it "horsing around" or" blowing off some steam" or a "hazing ritual".

Soon it was used by many.

Never underestimate the power of propaganda.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

70. About the IQs and illiteracy rates...

"I know I read somewhere that 50% of the US public has an IQ under 100...and with the educational system completely collapsing, and 25% of the US public functionally illiterate"

I looked up the IQ thing and I found this table that shows the typical IQ distribution.

Descriptive Classifications of Intelligence Quotients

IQ
Description
% of Population

130+
Very superior
2.2%

120-129
Superior
6.7%

110-119
High average
16.1%

90-109
Average
50%

80-89
Low average
16.1%

70-79
Borderline
6.7%

Below 70
Extremely low
2.2%

Since 90 - 109 is apparently average, then it would make sense that at least 50% of the US population has an IQ below 100.

I found this information about illiteracy rates at some web site called encyclopedia.com. I'm not sure how accurate the information is.

"The United Nations, which defines illiteracy as the inability to read and write a simple message in any language, has conducted a number of surveys on world illiteracy. In the first survey (1950, pub. 1957) at least 44% of the world's population were found to be illiterate. A 1978 study showed the rate to have dropped to 32.5%, by 1990 illiteracy worldwide had dropped to about 27%, and by 1998 to 16%. However, a study by the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) published in 1998 predicted that the world illiteracy rate would increase in the 21st cent. because only a quarter of the world's children were in school by the end of the 20th cent. The highest illiteracy rates were found in the less developed nations of Africa, Asia, and South America; the lowest in Australia, Japan, North Korea, and the more technologically advanced nations of Europe and North America. Using the UN definition of illiteracy, the United States and Canada have an overall illiteracy rate of about 1%. In certain disadvantaged areas, however, such as the rural South in the United States, the illiteracy rate is much higher."