Protesters "spitting on Vietnam vets" just a Nixon myth???

[LynnTheDem]

My hubby is a vet, altho not Vietnam, so we have a ton of pals who are Viet vets and every one of them either laughs or gets pissed off if anyone says anything about VVs having been spat on, coz they all say it's not true, it never happened.

I'm sure it happened in isolated incidences BUT...to date after a lot of searching, I've not found a single news article that mentions any kind of protesters doing anything to the VVs. I found individuals who say it was very common (and make it sound like all VVs were dripping in spit) and various books that say this, funny enuf all of them Republicans, but no <b>actual news articles.</b>

Not a single article about any disturbances at any US airports. Wouldn't something like that have been reported on, coz I gotta tell ya, any of the VVs we know, you spit on them or push them around or scream in their faces, and yer gonna get yer lights punched out. I would have thought that kind of thing would have made the news.

Next thing, most Vietnam vets landed on US base airports...there is NO WAY any non military-card-holders were allowed onto these bases, so what's with all the Republican accusations of vets being spat on in airports?

I did manage to find one incident in which WWII vets, dressed in uniform, were protesting the Vietnam war and were heckled & spat on...by RIGHTWINGERS who SUPPORTED the Vietnam war.

But not a dang thing about VVs being spat on.

I also found old articles that said this was actually a Nixon myth, spread about on Nixon's orders as another means of discrediting the anti-war groups.

With what we know about Nixon and his little games such as with John O'Neil, my total inability to find any article at all about it, and especially with our VV pals all saying it never happened, I'm really wondering now; did it happen or was that actually a myth?

Can any posters with better research skills than me try their luck? The curiousity is getting to me, lol!

[Racenut20]

1. I never was spat upon.

Normally it was more the opposite. People did not want to get that close to you. Mostly, we were treated like a piarra until we got the hair grown out, and stopped wearing the civilian clothes we wore during that era.

However, the term "baby killer" did come up at a few intervals. I think I still have scars from getting beat up for starting a fight every time I heard it.

[fknobbit]

11. I agree

People did not want to get that close to you. It was more like I was ignored. wore the uniform for 21 yrs and Never was spit on, course I am 6'4' and was pumping iron at the time.

[jdj]

151. Only the repukes' policies spit on vets, over and over again.

One of the vets I used to work with who always wore a desert storm hat told me he was grateful to Clinton for extending veterans health insurance into retirement.

[Vladimir]

2. Have a look through

http://www.rall.com/2004_07_01_archive.html

about midway down there is a letter from a veteran who says he was spat on. Further up is a letter from another soldier who wasn't spat on and doesn't know anyone who had been spat on.

It seems to me that if it did happen, it was at a very low level...

[LynnTheDem]

17. Thanks!!!

What a great letter Rall posted from that vet!

[Kolesar]

3. Cle Free Times essay debunks this lie

http://www.freetimes.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1195

Guest Column : Myth Making and Spitting Images from Viet Nam
What Vietnam tells us about how we wage the propaganda war at home during the current occupation of Iraq
By Patrick G. Coy Wednesday, March 17, 2004


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With MORE THAN 550 US soldiers killed — so far — in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, our country is revisiting many of the images and issues of the Vietnam War. Thus we hear much about a quagmire in Iraq, about search-and-destroy missions that alienate the local populace, about soldiers depressed over their service as an invading and occupying power, and about the administration's controversial news blackout on filming the returning dead soldiers at Dover Air Force base, unlike during Vietnam.

The Vietnam legacy has become a pivotal issue in the presidential race too. George W. Bush's cavalier approach to meeting his privileged Air National Guard duties stands in stark relief next to John Kerry's heroic command of a Navy Swift boat patrolling the coastal canals of Vietnam. In response, even veteran groups have squared off. Some hit the campaign trail with Kerry, while others launch attacks on Kerry because when he returned from Vietnam he opposed the war, as a decorated veteran.

But in the rush to inflict damage on John Kerry for his peace activism, historical truth is sacrificed. The February 17, 2004, story by Plain Dealer reporter Sabrina Eaton, “Kerry's Bid Ignites Vet's Interest,” is a case in point.

The story quotes Ted Sampley, a Green Beret in Vietnam whose website has led the charge for some veterans against Kerry. Sampley says, “I truly believe that John Kerry's testimony before Congress had a big role in people who were supposedly peaceniks spitting on vets and calling them baby-killers when they got home.”


.............edit...........

[LynnTheDem]

5. ta!

Thanks guys! MORE! I want more! LOL!

Ted Sampley...what a coincidence that he turns up in this, huh. A scam artist who prayed on grieving families with MIA loved ones, smeared daddy bush, smeared McCain, smeared Cleland, smearing Kerry; and is what McCain called "the most despicable person I've ever been unfortunate enough to meet".

Anyhoo off to read the article, thanks! :)

[LynnTheDem]

19. Another thanks!

He mentions what I'd found; war supporters spitting/taunting war protesters and vets, but no war protesters going after the vets.

But I grew up on this whole thing, that the vets were attacked all the time by war protesters. My world's going upside down here...what else do I think I know that I don't?

[The Flaming Red Head]

4. There are idiots on the left just like the right

I've heard first hand accounts and I'm not willing to call them all liars.

[LynnTheDem]

6. Which "idiots on the left"

are you referring to?

No one's saying anyone is a liar.

[The Flaming Red Head]

22. I’ve met people on both sides that were just outright twerps.

I’ve had friends over the years that were vets that told me that this happened to them and I’m not ready to dismiss them. That's all.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

45. You're going to have to do better than that....

...I've known a lot of USMC Vietnam vets, mostly while I was in the service from 1976-1981. Nobody ever told me they had been spit on, and I asked each and every one if that story was true.

I've also talked to a ton of Army and Air Force vets, and they've told me the same thing.

I personally think that your vet friends are either puling your leg, or you're pulling ours. Which is it?

[The Flaming Red Head]

170. Look around you

I wouldn't call anyone a liar. The living conditions/circumstances and the shoddy way these vets have been treated by our government is tantamount to spitting on them all over again. Been to a VA lately?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

41. You've heard nothing of the sort, IMHO.

[The Flaming Red Head]

166. I'm in my 40s and I'm a nurse, trust me I've heard it from more than one

I commute to work and school 50 miles from my home where there is also a VA hospital and I sometimes give friends rides to their doctor's visits, since I'm going that way anyway and I've discussed this topic with more than one vet and I don't discount that some on the left are idiots and twits and that they did do that to them.

[thebigidea]

7. if some clown spat on me I'd froth at the mouth and do bad kung fu

You'd think people with some actual military training might respond a bit more skillfully.

Who the hell would allow themselves to be spit on?

If so, wouldn't the resulting brawl make minor press?

DIRTY PINKO HIPPIE SPITS ON SOLDIER; TESTICLES EMBEDDED IN STOMACH

Come to think of it, maybe Rove will revive this stuff. It would play well to the FOX set.

[JudgeSmales]

13. That is the dumbest thing I have ever read

These men just got back from hell.

They want to go home.


See there family.


Who in the hell wants to fight some idiot, spitting hippy?


You don't stoop to that level.

[thebigidea]

15. Would you like it if I spit on you? Would you nod your head and pass?

So I'm to believe that throughout this mysterious plague of spitting hippies, not ONE guy got fedup and plastered the ficticious pinko wretch? Not ONE story made it into the papers about a fight provoked by spitting?

Even when it was advantageous to Nixon to present images of spitting hippies in the press?

It took a decade for the saliva to make the news?

I don't buy it, and I don't buy you. No sale, sir.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thebigidea]

74. So you're saying that the police would allow them to...

... throw stuff at soldiers without being arrested or teargassed?

Uh huh. Maybe in Bizzaro World.

[JudgeSmales]

97. A cop can't stop a loogy

This thread is making me laugh.


Let me ask you something.

Do you think it is possible for a protester somewhere in the United States to some how spit on a man in uniform in the 1960's?


If so then lets put this thread to bed. If not then lets agree to disagree. Thank you.

[thebigidea]

101. did I say anything about spit? I was talking about throwing things.

Nice dodge.

"If not then lets agree to disagree."

The only thing I agree with is that you're making stuff up. You've already been caught in one outright lie, so the credibility thing is a bit of an issue.

[JudgeSmales]

107. This is just like arguing with a girl

If a crowd is big enough then yes. I am certain someone could chuck a bottle from the back and not get caught. Easily.

[thebigidea]

112. arguing with a girl? How old are you, anyway?

That kind of stuff needs belongs on a playground.

[JudgeSmales]

120. 4

Is that why you are here?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

113. Well, this "girl" has kicked your ass all over this post

I bet that makes you feel 'manly'. :eyes:

[JudgeSmales]

122. How so

[Kathy in Cambridge]

124. I caught you in a lie. You can't argue facts.

You resort to patronizing, sexist language. Shall I go on?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

127. The smartest thing G. Gordon Liddy ever said was to his warden....

..."In a battle of wits, you sir, are unarmed".

You're DEFINITELY the "warden" in this little give-and-take today.

You should quit now before you fall even farther behind.

[Misunderestimator]

150. Wow.... you sure did self-destruct fast.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

103. Do you think it would have been possible that a story like that would...

...have been HUGE in 1968?

Please spare us the embarrassment of your continued posts on this topic.

[JudgeSmales]

108. It isn't that big of a story

with all the protesting going on. Spit is hardly newsworthy.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

111. Grasping at straws, aren't you?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

117. That's a VERY weak response. I guess you must be about finished.

[thebigidea]

125. I'd say people throwing bottles at returning soldiers...

... would provoke lots of well-deserved outrage that would sprout stories that the RW would regurgitate over and over.

[Swamp Rat]

24. Welcome to DU

Good luck!

[w4rma]

8. Remember that many anti-war folks were Nixon supporters

and also Republicans who believed that Nixon had a "secret plan" to get us out.

[Blue Wally]

25. Nixon did get us out

Though it took four years. Witdrawals began about six months after Nixon took office. There was a steady drawdown until his re-election, at which time only about 15,000 troops remained in Vietnam (versus a peak of over 500,000).

[Media_Lies_Daily]

79. Sorry, but Ford presided over our final withdrawal from Vietnam....

...in 1975, and there were still more than 24,000 U. S. troops in Vietnam when Nixon was re-elected in 1972.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

64. Absolutely NOT true. I was in several of those protests and NEVER....

...met a "Nixon-supporter" during that entire time.

I don't know where you've gotten that story, but if I were selling bridges I'd be knocking on your door.

[JudgeSmales]

9. It did happen

My father is a vet. When they landed the protesters were there with signs calling him a baby killer, murder, and Bastard.....and they did spit as well as throw things. These things did happen. It is reality. I am sorry to say.

[thebigidea]

12. oh yeah, where? when?

We're to believe this father of yours meekly accepted the saliva of a stranger without ramming his fist down the stranger's throat? AND objects thrown at him? Uh, why? What the hell kind of man is he?

I don't believe you one bit.

This is coming from the guy who claims to like Alan Colmes, folks. I'd say grains of salt are required.

[JudgeSmales]

27. I don't care what you believe

The protesters were behind police lines....shouting, spitting and throwing things. I am sure the cops dealt with what they could. But it did happen. Is reality hard for you. Are you scared of what really goes on in the evil world out there? Are you pissed because people can be bad. Even protesters.

[Kolesar]

33. Where & when?

I would think you would have been able to name a year and a location by now if your story was true.

[JudgeSmales]

35. 1968..Continental airlines..Boston Airport

The plane flew to Alaska first. Then to Boston. Then he took a train home. The hippies were at the airport in Boston. That is where they were protesting. That is where the filthy Bastards were spitting on troops.


Do you want me to have him call you? I called him to get this info. If you need more I can have him call you as long as you pick up the LD charges.

[progressivebydesign]

40. Hippies???????

OMG!! I haven't heard that term in decades! Go back to sleep grandpa.. it's too early in the morning for that shit.

[JudgeSmales]

44. There ya go. Avoid it.

They called themselves hippies.

[Kolesar]

43. I asked

So you are saying that these hippies went through all the trouble of going into Boston airport just to protest some soldiers getting off of an airplane?

[JudgeSmales]

47. YES...All the time

Hippies protested the war quite often. Quite often. It was popular.If they lived in Boston it probably wasn't that much trouble. I have heard many DUers talking about going to protests. They don't think it is too much trouble.

[thebigidea]

75. you didn't answer the question. he didn't say protest the war.

He said protest returning troops at the airport.

How the hell did they know when and where to go?

[JudgeSmales]

90. Do you really think it is that hard

to know that troops might be returning on a plane.....in an airport....

[thebigidea]

92. yes, it would be very hard for them since Continental didn't fly there

Nice try, kid.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

115. And this is proof of what exactly? Another third-hand reference to....

..."spitting" by yet another rightwinger anxious to discredit any movement that hates war. The fact that you would link anything involving the American Enterprise Institute tells me the rest of the story about you.

Oh, by the way...I personally served in the USN from 1976 until 1981. I enlisted in 1976, was picked up for Officer Candidate School, was commissioned in 1977, spent a year aboard ship as a Gunnery Officer, and spent my last three years as a Naval Gunfire Liaiason Officer attached to the Marines at Camp Pendleton.

Tell us about your military experience, JudgeSmales...or are you a chickenhawk like the rest of your NeoCon friends?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

94. Okay...where's the proof to back up your assertion that returning....

...Vietnam vets got spit upon?

Surely with a story that would have been this HUGE you could find something aomewhere. Where is it?

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

51. I'm sorry, but nothing of the sort was EVER reported in the papers at....

...the time. I was a junior in high school in 1968, and that sort of thing would have been big news back then. The rightwingers supporting the Vietnam War were constantly looking for stories like that...and they never found any.

Sorry, no sale.

And by the way, calling all of the anti-war protestors "filthy hippies" dies nothing to add credibility to your story, such that it is.

[w4rma]

57. a few incorrect points

First, he called the specific folks who called themselves hippies that were spitting on soldiers "filthy bastards". Not all hippies.

Second, I think to try to argue that no hippie spit on a soldier while calling them a "baby killer" is a losing argument. You can bet it happened and to have any credibility you should be debating on how exagerated the claims were of it happening, not whether it happened at all.

imho.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

81. You have no documentation that anything of the sort happened, do you?....

So tell me again who has credibility issues.

[JudgeSmales]

70. Lots of things don't make the papers.

Maybe the government didn't want people to know that there were others out there against the war. Maybe it just isn't news worthy. Maybe you are in denial.

[thebigidea]

77. You don't actually know anything about the 60s-early 70s, do you?

They lept on anything that made the protest movement look bad. Spitting on troops as they returned home at the freakin' airport would've made the Nixon camp very happy indeed.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

84. And what do you think of the anti-war protesters today?

We anxiously await your wisdom...

[JudgeSmales]

88. Of course Continental flew to Boston...now you are reaching

Protest the war not the troops

[thebigidea]

93. no, you're the one making stuff up.

I believe you pulled the "baffle 'em with bullshit" ploy, never thinking people would bother to check it out.

Game, set, m-m-m-match.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

95. No, they didn't. Do a google search.

Or even better, read a history of Logan Airport.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

99. No Continental Airlines flew into Boston in 1968....why do you keep...

...pushing this story?

You've been officially debunked on a number of levels.

Thanks for playing, and don't let the cyber-door hit you on the way out.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

110. Hey, JudgeSmales called you a Silly Woman, Media_Lies_Daily

which would be sexist enough if you weren't a man.

[thebigidea]

114. yeah, well arguing with me is like arguing with a girl, apparently.

Though personally, I'm of the opinion that arguing with me is like arguing with a slightly manic wall.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

116. He must be a member of the peniley-challenged liars association

otherwise, I can't imagine any real man using sexist, patronizing insults. I do hope the Judge is only 14 years old. Otherwise, this is very, very sad.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

123. That's okay...see my post #115.

[TahitiNut]

173. Continental Airlines was the major MACV contractor, IIRC.

They're the planes (under MACV contract) who flew me both to and from 'Nam ... from and to Travis AFB, to and from Bien Hoa. It wouldn't surprise me at all if their airplanes were, under the MACV contract, flown to Logan or vicinity and elsewhere as well. These wouldn't be regularly-scheduled flights.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

86. Maybe you're full of bull. That story would have been page one...

...in every newspaper in America, and every network would have televised it.

Surely with all of the possible sources of documentation you could come up with something to support your inflammatory comments.

Where's your documentation?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

63. Continental Airlines Didn't Fly to Boston Logan in 1968

American Airlines, Eastern Airlines, and Pan Am were the three major airlines serving Boston Logan at that time.

BTW one of those Vietnam Vet uncles just retired from Massport. That's how I know this. ;-)

[thebigidea]

80. Sure, I'll take you up on that calling offer. PM me, I don't believe you.

And I don't believe you'll drag this guy into it. I guess you could always speak with a towel over the phone.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

48. Ann Coulter, is that you?

[JudgeSmales]

49. That is just stupid.

I can't believe people don't believe that protesters of the vietnam war would spit on soldiers.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thebigidea]

82. Charming as always.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

87. My, my, my...it seems we've struck a nerve with JudgeSmales...

It's just too bad that you can't seem to find any documentation to prove your assertion, isn't it?

[JudgeSmales]

118. Why would you want to strike a nerve...can't we just disagree

Why are you so emotional about a bunch of spitting hippies. There were plenty of protests and riots back then. It isn't a big deal. Are you questioning your own feelings? Are you losing faith in your self?



Someone already came forth and said they know of 2 different people that it happened to. Is that not enough for you? Are you saying that person is a lier? If so how do you get the right? What gives you that authority?

I had a steak yesterday. Do you dispute that?


If so how?



Look you don't want to believe that a hippie in the 1960s can spit. That is your perogative. Ignorance is bliss.

Kerry didn't commit atrocities either.


Bush didn't go AWOL

Babies are not dying in Iraq.


The world is perfect.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

133. Ahhh, now we see the attempt to interject psycho-babble into the...

...discussion.

All you have to do is produce the documentation that supports your contention that Vietnam vets were spit on while returning home. You can't even tell us what airlines operated in Boston in 1968, much less back up your phony-baloney story.

And personally, I could care less what anyone else says on this subject. If they can't produce the documentation to back-up their story, their credibility is no better than yours.

By the way, based on your proven lack of credibility, why should I believe that you had a steak anytime over the last week, much less yesterday?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

138. He won't be answering

he went bye-bye.

[w4rma]

54. Personally, I'm sure it happened,

even though I wasn't born until Watergate. I've seen a minority of posters here say really bad stuff against military folks (and they've been flamed down nearly every time). I also know that alot of the folks who protested the war were Republicans and Nixon supporters. I can easily seen them spitting on military men just like Bush's supporters are "spitting" on the military man, Sen. Kerry.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

60. You weren't born until Watergate? But you think spitting on the vets....

...returning from Vietnam actually took place? Where's your documentation?

By the way, I was in several anti-war protests back then and NEVER met any "Republicans and Nixon supporters" in those crowds. Your comment is a complete fabrication, IMHO.

You two need to either produce the documentation or move along because, IMHO, there is nothing left to see here.

[w4rma]

67. All it takes is for 3 or 4 folks to to visit a very large airport

on occasion for the purpose of yelling at soldiers coming home.

You think everyone who protested that war dealt within the protesting network? And even if these individuals did, do you really think that everyone knew everything going on at that time?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

91. All it takes is a couple of pieces of documentation from reliable...

...sources, and you can prove your point. Where are they?

A story like this would have been HUGE during the Vietnam War...every single media outlet would have carried this on the front page or as a leading story on the nightly news.

The fact that you can't find any documentation to support your comments should be ringing a bell someplace, don't you think?

[monobrau]

165. Things were way different then

I don't think you appreciate how much things changed in a few short years leading up to when you were born. "Hippies" or just about anybody else the cops deemed troublemakers were regularly beaten and jailed, and if a couple of joints were found on them, they went to prison.
It's not beyond my imagination that some shaggy long-haired thug may have spit on or otherwise assaulted a soldier, although calling that person a hippy would be a bit of a stretch.
But my point is that most young people at the time were very wary of being killed or maimed by the police and any assaults on anyone would have been the exception to the rule. Read up on what happened at Kent State if you haven't already, as that event helped change the way civil disobedience was handled in this country in very significant ways.
Most anti-war protesters appealed to the soldiers humanity and tried to befriend them rather than alienate them.

[annabanana]

169. Thank you monobrau

I was at NYU in the village ('67-'72) No one I knew thought that the kids were the real bad guys. They were drafted and shipped out. We freaked out when they freaked out and committed atrocities, but we felt sorry for them anyway.... But it was "hey hey LBJ, how many kids did you kill today" in the streets.

[w4rma]

50. JudgeSmales is most likely telling the truth, imho. (nt)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

55. Bull. Nothing of the sort EVER took place. The press back then would....

...have crawled all over a story like that. I was a junior in high school at the time and read the Washington Post daily, without fail.

No documentation, no story.

End of story.

[w4rma]

58. You are speaking in very absolute terms: "Nothing". Never say never. (nt)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

62. Fork over the documentation to prove your assertions....

...otherwise, "never" works very well in this case.

[w4rma]

68. Never say never. (nt)

[JudgeSmales]

83. I love the fact that Miss "Media Lies daily" is asking for documentation

I swear I do

[Kathy in Cambridge]

98. Did you check out Media Lies Daily website?

I didn't think so. You probably think the media is liberal.

[JudgeSmales]

89. ..........................................................................

http://www.jameswebb.com/Articles/variouspubs/protestors.htm

[Kathy in Cambridge]

105. A link that includes RW Think Tank American Enterprise Institute?

ROFL!

:eyes:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

65. It's your opinion. Please provide links.

Thanks.

[w4rma]

69. imho. from my analysis of the logic of the arguments, it happened.

I don't think it happened very often, though. I also don't think that the leaders of the various protest movments were supporing actions like this, either.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

121. You've provided no links and no logic to support your arguments. Next.

[JudgeSmales]

126. Neither have you...Next

[Kathy in Cambridge]

130. You're the one making the assertions. You need to back up your BS

with links. That's the way the game is played here on DU. If you don't like it, you can take your ball and go home. or back to FR.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

135. YOU made the claims...where are the links to back-up them up?

[put out]

137. You are of course entitled to your humble opinion.

Facts would be much more helpful in your attempt to advance your ideas. You can believe in lots of things, and have opinions about lots of things.

Your opinions are real and your beliefs are real. But that doesn't mean that real life events exist, which might provide some support for your humble opinions.

I have magical nymphs living in my toilet tank. That's my belief and my opinion and I don't have to prove anything to anyone because it could be true so how do you know it isn't. So it's true, because I believe it and that's my opinion.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

14. Extraordinary claims...

Require extraordinary proofs. Ante up. Your claims sound way too much like the Urban Legend. Way too much.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

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[IdaBriggs]

42. If it did happen, it shouldn't have.

I think hating war in general is a good thing; it makes all of us work harder to avoid it. The traumas that comes from either giving or receiving violence are things we want to inflict on our people only as a LAST resort. Everyone with common sense knows that hating our soldiers is insane -- they BELONG TO US. They give a vow to trust our judgment and follow the leaders we elect (no matter how good or bad they are). It is up to all of us to make sure we have leaders who will take appropriate care of them with decent pay, good medical benefits, and wise judgment as to their deployment. When smart people run AWAY from dangerous situations, our soldiers, firefighters and police run TOWARD them to save lives. There is no greater sacrifice they can make -- and anyone with more than half a brain knows we need to value them, cherish them and make sure we treat them with the dignity and respect they deserve. If this truly did happen to your father, please give him a hug from all of us, and a resounding "THANK YOU" for serving his country in a time of trouble; we all pray God we will do everything possible to avoid those kinds of mistakes in the future.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

71. Enjoy your brief stay

3 days and counting...

[Kathy in Cambridge]

26. My two uncles came home from Vietnam

and nothing like that happened to them. Urban legend.

Do you REALLY like Alan Colmes? :eyes:

[pop goes the weasel]

34. see there

I can't believe you. "When they landed the protesters were there with signs calling him a baby killer, murder, and Bastard.....and they did spit as well as throw things."

You really expect me to believe this happened at an airport? Was it a military or civilian airport? How did these protestors get to the gate?

I'm not saying your dad is lying. You ever watch King of the Hill? Ever see the episode where Hank's dad tells Peggy that he was a hero in both the Pacific and European theaters? At first, she is angry with him for lying, then she realizes that the old guy was essentially suffering from false-recovered memories. So much was traumatic at the time that there was no real memory of events, and false memories were developed over time to fill up the emptiness. This is what I think is likely to have happened with your dad. He felt spit on by society after he came back, and that turned into a recovered memory of having actually been spat on.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

46. Bullshit. Welcome to DU. Enjoy your stay.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

10. I can only speak from my experience...

Not as a vet(I played the lottery and won...), but as one of the guys who welcomed veteran friends home when they returned:

The only spitting that ever happened to any vets that I saw was when we were all getting them drunk and high, and someone slobbered on them. When those guys got home, we got them drunk and high and kept them that way for a while. Us too. ;-)

We loved our friends and were goddamned relieved to have them back in generally one piece. In some cases, less, but they were back and that was enough. Sad to say that some of those friends went on to punch themselves out of this vale of tears or drink themselves to death. One passed out and froze to death in a snowbank. No one ever spit on him, either.

But, more importantly, there is a study out there, by a real, honest-to-goodness college professor who did a real, honest-to-goodness study on the thing that pretty well puts the lie to the "spitting" reports.

My personal experience is that this sort of rhetoric comes from either the rear-est of the REMFs, the ones that served during The Nam, but spent their time in a cushy billet nowhere near the country(much less the action) or from people who never served, but wear 25lbs. of "POW/MIA" bracelets on their arms.

Those ones can usually be found loudly manning a hazardous duty post at the bar at the local American Legion on any given night. And giving it their all like The Real American Heroes that they are. ;-)

[AngryAmish]

16. Two vets I have spoken to said it happened

Neither are repub scum. I can't testify, I was either not born or crapping my pants through the war.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

18. Did it happen to them?

Or did they just hear about it? Or did they just hear about it and decide it happened to them?

That sort of thing tends to happen too.

[AngryAmish]

21. Happened to them

Both in early 70s one in California and one in Madison, WI.

Edited to say: I believe them but I was not there. Maybe other vets out there could testify better than I because I can only offer another persons' accounts.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

142. That's the problem here, isn't it? Quite few posters are professing...

...that something happened and yet they were never there when it allegedly happened, and they got the information from someone else, who got it from someone else, ad nauseum.

[AngryAmish]

143. I totally agree

[TahitiNut]

175. How about posters that DON'T have any experience ...

... ignoring or demeaning the personal experiences of others in order to preserve their own 'denialist' attitudes?

Did it happen to a majority of returning vets? Nope.
Did a majority of returning vets have experiences that were consistent with such attitudes? In my experience and from my conversations with other vets, YES.


If they were called "spitting Republicans" or "spitting conservatives" would people here still refuse to believe it happened?

:eyes:

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mike_c]

52. I was one of those war protestors....

We got tear-gassed and beaten up by cops (disclaimer-- I was never personally assaulted, but I witnessed numerous such attacks). We were insulted and assaulted by war supporters-- anyone remember the "footprint of the American chicken?" I was once stuck by a beer bottle thrown from a car that sped by a march rally point.

All of the anti-war protests that I ever attended were in urban centers, usually Washington D.C. or nearby cities. They were nowhere near airports or other places one might encounter returning soldiers.

At the time, my complaint-- and that of other anti-war protesters that I knew-- was with the U.S. government and its foreign policy in S.E. Asia. If I'd known then what I know now, I might have personalized it a bit more, but mainly I felt sorry for some of the vets I knew and admiration for some others-- most seemed pretty traumatized or otherwise tweaked by their experiences in Vietnam. I only knew a few, but they were all damned glad to be home. Several joined the anti-war movement. I had immense respect for them. Frankly, it never would have occurred to me to spit on anyone-- that's an act of personal contempt, and none of the returning soldiers had ever done anything to me personally. In those days my fight was with the institutions that sent them to Vietnam.

[JudgeSmales]

78. So you were not in the Boston airport in 1968

Then you don't know.

What did you do to get teargassed? Block traffic?

Throw things?

Get violent?

[thebigidea]

96. or maybe he just stood there.

Hysterical. You're certainly entertaining! Keep up the goooood work.

[oneighty]

119. From 180; Vietnam war protester

Eight years active duty in US Navy Korean War Veteran and I never met a veteran of any service or of any war haven been spit upon because of that service.

True it is possible as is everything in time and space.

I suggest you read 'Stolen Valor' (How the Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of its Heroes and its History.) By B.G.Burkett and Glenna Whitley.

In there you will learn about phony veterans in general and phony Vietnam Veterans in particular.

PS. I am not a hippy.

180

[GalleryGod]

20. Urban Myth. Never Happened. Magruder-Colson-Ehrlichman Fabrication.

:think: hope that helps. debunked countless times.:smoke:

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thebigidea]

109. well, I'd believe you. But...

... you'd see how someone spinning a yarn concerning a flight that never even serviced that airport might be greeted with some suspicion in these quarters, especially when coupled with cut n' paste RW terminology and insults about being a "girl" or somesuch?

Though if it'll help blow off steam, go on with the face breakin'.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bush was AWOL]

23. Even the Repub on Clear Channel yesterday said it was a myth

[LynnTheDem]

30. And another V V pal of mine chimes in

He says Nixon at least once that he knows of publicly said "protesters are spitting on soldiers" which was, in a rightwingnut way, true; it was PRO WAR protesters spitting on soldiers protesting the war. He also reminded me that it was not a handful or two of soldiers who protested against the war; it was hundreds of thousands of soldiers who protested against the war.

He also said most the anti-war types were far too stoned to do anything but sit & smile, LOL! :D

I'm sure there were incidences of anti-war'ers spitting/taunting soldiers but it seems it wasn't a prevalent thing. So how on earth did this manage to become such an established fact?

That's scary!

[Blue Wally]

29. Returning vets landed at Air Force bases

After which they were bussed to the nearest airport. First time I came back, I was landed at McGwire AFB in New Jersey, took the shiuttle bus to Trenton, NJ and the train to DC. After seeing the assignment folks, I flew from Dulles Airport to Detroit. Everyone was pretty nice to me then (1968). During the period 1969-1972, I had to travel on commercial airlines quite frequently in uniform. Threre were several unkind remoarks made, but no one spit on me. Finally, as a result of incidents in airports (and several hijacks to Cuba), the Army put out the dictum that official travel would be in civilian clothes and that civilian clothes were acceptable dress at meetings where officers had to travel to the meeting site.

[leftbend]

31. Didn't happen to me

I attend some Veteran's groups on occasion and some claim to have experienced it. The airports incidents that happened were usually when the veteran was returning home, not landing from Vietnam. There were some angry people at airports in those days and the soldiers were required to wear their uniform home making them an easy target. I never experienced anything physical, just questions such as how many did you kill and references to baby killing. I really don't think too many people were going to get physical with young men just returning from a year of combat. Anyway I take the spitting stories to be 30 year old memories of emotional events that can certainly have been influenced by the press, other vets, politics, selective memories etc. I don't question people that claim it happened to them, but that is their personal experience and memories just as I have mine. I was there and these are my own thirty year old memories for what their worth.

[TahitiNut]

129. Well, it did happen to me (see below).

The idiotic notion that I'd physically attack someone for spitting at me after spending nearly a year taking cover from rocket attacks and being shot at is ridiculous, at best. We (at least I and other) were 'briefed' about getting into trouble while in uniform. We were told we'd be confronted. We were told to stay out of trouble. I was only interested in getting 'home' and ripping off the uniform ... and forgetting Vietnam. The last thing I wanted was to get embroiled in some brouhaha with some post-adolescent fucks who obviously didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

[thebigidea]

131. how about throwing a bottle at you?

which is what the dear Judge is claiming as well.

And of course spitting on the ground isn't worth the trouble, but what about actually ON you. Someone getting in your face, calling you a bastard, spitting on your face.

I'd say that would be a step up in annoyance from some assholes muttering while walking by.

I've no doubt saliva and stupidity were spread by idiots who sometimes had big sideburns back then, the only qualms I had were about the strange yarn above.

[TahitiNut]

148. At the time ...

... I knew very little but enough hand-to-hand (and was physically fit enough) to probably be able to kill someone who'd do this, if only by smashing up on their nose. Even so, I probably wouldn't. I encountered nothing more overtly belligerent that what I've described. At the same time, my experience in 'Nam was a "take cover' experience. Others engaged in offensives; we (so-called) REMFs were defensive (during Tet) and inclined to take cover in bunkers during rocket attacks.

Most of the animosity I dealt with was more passive-aggressive. It was common to be treated like I had leprosy as soon as someone knew I was a Vietnam Vet. In the first months back, the 'jungle complexion' and other giveaways made it pretty obvious. At that time, people in my office got a perverse kick out of watching my startle response to loud noises. Coworkers and acquaintances who had friends or family who escaped to Canada treated me like I was a damned fool for even letting myself be drafted. From older veterans, I felt frozen out. I was part of a "losing war" ... one I should've been ashamed of "losing." It was no surprise to me that Vietnam Vets weren't welcomed in the VFW and American Legion at the time. It's only later (after about 1980) that Vietnam Vets started being accepted. That's one of the reasons separate Vietnam Veteran organizations were even founded.

It was not fun. But people who look back myopically and 'revise' any limited comprehension of those days slay me.

Not every returnee was a SOG/SF vet. Most were of the 90% like me who got shot at but didn't have LRP or S&D roles. I kinda doubt the guys wearing shined boots, CIBs, and berets got much shit unless they were very outnumbered. Guys like me, traveling alone, wearing greens, low-tops, and sodajerk hats were probably 'fair game.' (Yes, most folks back 'home' were pretty aware of what the uniform indicated.)

But I was dealing with 'getting over' a wife who was sleeping with her lover the night I returned. I was dealing with nightmares. I was dealing with trying to resurrect some approximation of a 'life.' I sure as hell didn't have the resources to get physical with the social misfits who played barnyard pecking order bullshit.

We came back alone! I've never felt more betrayed in my life. That people do not comprehend this, particularly those not even born then, is no surprise to me.

[leftbend]

167. My experience

I can only state my experience. If you read my post I don't dispute others claims or memories. I never posted the "idiotic notion" that someone should be physically attacked for spitting at you. I'm glad it didn't happen to me as it seem to engender some long lasting bitterness.

[randr]

Somewhere at some time someone did spit on a returning vet.

This became a such a powerful symbol that image became fixed in the minds of many Viet Nam Veterans and the mere image transformed into a personal experience.
We can only hope that this very same mechanism will work when these same Vets realize how the disrespectful, un-American, and contemptible SBV's accusations against Kerry are akin to the thoughtless action of the original spitting protester.

[progressivebydesign]

39. Did you see a photo of that?

I never did. Because someone said it happened, does not make it so. If there's a photo.. then I'd like to see it. Or.. was it a claim?

[DU GrovelBot]

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[progressivebydesign]

38. No vet I've known was spat upon...

.. I DO think it was a propoganda tool by Nixon. Remember when the Iraq war started? There was a group in Southern California that claimed people spit on them? I think it was Camp Pendleton relatives that claimed it.. it turned out to be bullshit. Like the Iraqi soldiers ripping babies from the incubators in Kuwait.. and WMD posing an imminent threat.. it's just more GOP nonsense.

[mitchum]

56. "The Spitting Image" debunks this bullshit, but good luck trying...

to convince people that it didn't happen

[vetwife]

59. They wre called Baby killers...but it was an unpopular war and

I am sure Kerry's tesimony had nothing to do with that but Oneill right now is bringing things to surface where vets can't go mentally and he should be ashamed. Kerry told the truth and vets returning home did get a raw deal. Spit upon..NEver saw it but did hear about the name calling and did witness it. No spitting though. i think they were just ignored or people distanced themselves from the vet and the vet distanced himself..Didn't trust the government or the people. Do't blame them.

[seabeyond]

61. but yesterday did read about a freeper peeing on protestors

way back then

the thing, early 70's i was like jr high. didnt know a lot of the war, not political at that young age, but i do remember the feel of the sodlier the next handful of years. there was a stain on the soldiers for participating on the war. it was a lesson for us, that we would do that to our soldiers, i have seen as history progressed, but still there was a feel to the soldiers that was not kind.

maybe that wasnt the nations experience, i was in calif and as i said i was young. it was as i got older to appreciate and value the soldier, regardless of what happened in war. understanding battle and war and the ugliness in, and man, simple man in those circumstances

[DougieZero]

66. John O'Neil

mr. o'neil and nixon... just hangin' out... move along... nothing to see here.

[Viking12]

72. A Vietnam Vet friend tells this story...

of encounters with protestors. He was back from Nam after being injured and was going to the VA Hospital in Madison for some medical appointment. On his drive there, he encountered a very large protest, the streets were blocked. He pulled up near the edge of the protestors and began talking with them, when he told them he was a veteran on his way to the hospital one protestor yelled to others, "We've got a veteran here, let him through" and on he went to the hosptial.

Some 2 million soldiers served in Nam. I am sure some were treated poorly, but a few incidents out of 2 million certainly isn't a sufficient sample to conclude to amke any genralizations.

[TahitiNut]

85. Just what is the FUCKING AGENDA in bringing this up AGAIN?

This kind of BULLSHIT posting seems to crop up every 3 months or so on DU ... and I'm FUCKING tired of the BULLSHIT disruption.

Try your own fucking "research skills" and look at the DU archives where this has been "discussed" before.

It happened to me. I've posted about this several FUCKING times! I don't give a flying fuck whether it didn't happen enough to satisfy some bullshit personal agenda, it happened to me and as far as I'm personally concerned, that's 100%.

:grr: :grr: READ THIS! :grr: :grr:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

144. Okay, I read it....and you plainly stated that you were NEVER spit on....

...you heard noises that you believed to be spitting sounds, but you found nothing on your uniform or on your shoes.

Here's the excerpt from your very own post:

"When I passed a few young guys (probably college students?) dressed in that casual 'hippie' fashion walking together in the opposite direction while I was going to the gate and one of them spit (or made a spitting noise and gesture) towards me, I was stunned. I vague recall hearing at least one of them mutter something like 'baby killer' as I continued to walk in the opposite direction. I never noticed any spittle on my shoes or trousers, but there was no mistaking the spitting gesture.

Thanks...case closed.

[TahitiNut]

153. So, you view the specious distinction ...

... between "spit at" and "spit on" is worth claiming some Pyrrhic "victory"??

If this is the kind of "support" a Vietnam Vet gets from 'liberals' (and DUers) ... then I'll gladly vote for Nader, if only with a write-in, and strongly encourage others to do the same.

Go ahead. Shoot yourself in the foot. :eyes:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

158. Hey, pal...you wrote the post that you referenced, did you not?....

Did you not state that you did not know whether or not the guy actually spit or made spitting noises?

Didn't you also state that you found nothing on your uniform or shoes to indicate that you had been hit by any spittle?

So what are you trying to tell me now? Is it something different from what you wrote in the post you linked?

Go ahead and vote for Nader...waste your vote. Then who would be shooting themselves in the foot?

[TahitiNut]

176. The condescension of calling me 'pal' is insulting.

I said that I don't recall (thirty-five fucking years later!) whether it hit me and don't recall noticing anything on my uniform. Hell, I don't even recall, in my stunned state of mind, even looking much for spittle. I represented that experience EXACTLY to the degree I clearly recall it; nothing more and nothing less!

I've been as honest and candid about my experiences as I (or anyone) can get. It's too bad the honesty isn't reciprocated.

Could I (like others) have exaggerated my recollection to make some vacuous discussion board "points"? Maybe. But that's not my style. My personal integrity and intellectual honesty counts for far more ... apparently unlike some others in this thread.

:puke: :puke: :puke:


The George W. Bush School of Ethics Motto: "If it didn't happen to me or mine, I don't give a shit what you say!"

[The Straight Story]

104. Try Here

I did a search on http://www.google.com/unclesam on this some time ago and found some testimony and an article or two on it. Been awhile and I have to run out for a bit. Will see if I can find anything again later.

A quick search turned up this

[TahitiNut]

106. It happened to me! (Originally posted on February 10, 2004)

As far as I'm concerned, the primary intent of some purported 'liberal' who tries to open this old wound is to increasingly alienate Vietnam Vets like myself. If I had one 'litmus test' about voting, it'd be to vote against any partisan 'side' who attempted to marginalize or trivialize my personal experience and the treatment I received upon returning 'home' from Vietnam.

This has been repeatedly been brought up on DU, often by posters now shown to be disruptors. Here's what I posted just 6 months ago ...

---

In the years since, I've known many Vietnam veterans and have been told by a couple of them that they also experienced such treatment. I've never had reason to doubt them. (I don't ever recall being lied to by another Vietnam Vet.) I don't know who Lembcke talked to or what standard of "proof" he sought but I can state categorically from personal experience at SFO in November 1969 that it happened to me. Once.

This has been discussed at length on DU and other Vietnam Vets spoke out ... only to be told by other DUers (some no longer members of this board, and some not even old enough to remember those years) that they were imagining things, were confabulating, or were lying. (I really don't think I need describe my opinion regarding such treatment.)

On edit: I will also say that I've encountered quite a few people (particularly on the Internet) who claim to be Vietnam veterans -- and clearly are not. It's sadly ironic that so many would make such a false claim -- especially since most of us tried hard to "put it behind us" and keep from being one in the first place.

About the term "hippie" and a Vietnam Vet's perspectives: It seems Lembcke places a great deal of emphasis on this term. Some seem to argue that it wasn't done by "hippies" so it can't have happened. This shows abysmal ignorance of the experience of most Vietnam Vets of the late 60's. When I was drafted in Detroit in early 1968, it was my experience that only a very, very few younger people wore their hair long and wore clothing styled in a "hippie" way. (A lot of that was just Detroit "culture" -- a bit behind. Most still called them "beatniks.") When I returned from Vietnam through San Francisco, I saw "the world" had changed. From that perspective, the styles (and behaviors) had changed a great deal in less than two years but Vietnam Vets were in a kind of "time capsule." Indeed, much of the 'adjustment problems' that returning Vietnam Vets experience were attributable to the combined impact of a "world" that had changed and a personal recollection of that "world" that was scrubbed and filtered daily in the mind of the in-country soldier.

When I came back through Travis AFB, Oakland Army Base, and San Francisco International Airport in late 1969, any male wearing long hair, "stylish" shirts, maybe a long vest or poncho, and/or wide-bottomed casual trousers was seen (by me) as a "hippie." Were they? I haven't the slightest idea. They didn't show me their membership cards and I didn't ask for ID.

When I passed a few young guys (probably college students?) dressed in that casual "hippie" fashion walking together in the opposite direction while I was going to the gate and one of them spit (or made a spitting noise and gesture) toward me, I was stunned. I vaguely recall hearing at least one of them mutter something like "baby killer" as I continued to walk in the opposite direction. I never noticed any spittle on my shoes or trousers, but there was no mistaking the spitting gesture.


The experiences I had, of which this was but one minor part, when I "came back to the world" were not atypical judging from the conversations I've had with many, many Vietnam vets -- and those experiences engendered strong feelings of betrayal and alienation. Much has been written of these problems, a large part of which were exacerbated by the solitary nature of the Vet's return. When I arrived, alone, at my wife's (who I married just before going to Vietnam) apartment after 2am on a cold mid-November night in Detroit, I had to awaken the apartment manager to be let in. She was out. Staying overnight with her lover as I soon discovered. When I went back to the job I had before being drafted, I encountered former peers who were now senior to me and coworkers who found great amusement making loud noises (dropping a book or slamming a door, for example) and watching my startle response. I was asked uncountable times why I didn't just abandon my citizenship and go to Canada -- almost always in a tone that implied I was either a fool or a killer. For one whose father and uncles served during WW2 and were welcomed home with great celebration, the experience was difficult to say the least.

All these things take time to describe and resurrect still-painful memories. Every veteran's experience was different in the specifics but most were the same in tone. (Over 90% of the vets I've known and spoken with agreed that "coming home" was even more emotionally difficult than being in Vietnam.) It's not surprising to me that the symbolism of this one anecdote would survive as a prototype of the experience of the returning veterans. It's also not surprising to me that a nation of people in deep denial that they'd "done us wrong" would seize upon one anecdote and attempt to dismiss the entirety of many Veterans' experiences. Blaming the victim seems to be a popular pastime.

"Greetings. A Board composed of your friends and neighbors ..." (Yeah. Riiight.) :eyes:

[Merlin]

128. Yeah, well it DIDN'T happen to me. And maybe you ought to lighten up.

Your experiences are not those of everybody else. If you walked through the streets of Haight Ashbury in mid-69 with a fucking military uniform on, what the hell kind of reaction do you think you're going to get from snot-nosed, draft-dodging kids barely out of high school who spent most of their time smoking weed and protesting the war? Garlands?

Your attitude seems to be that the right wingers are right when they insinuate the ENTIRE ANTI-WAR CROWD was guilty of unpatriotic disrespect toward Nam Vets.

I don't give a damn how hot you are about a couple of snide comments and a possible spitting sound made by jerks in passing decades ago, you are just plain wrong to insinuate this was the practice of the anti-war crowd. That's exactly what the right wing wants people to believe.

I came back, took 30 days, then went back for a 2nd tour, spending 3 days in SF before returning to Nam in June '69. I had a military hair cut, but wore civies. I walked all around Haight Ashbury. I was trying to understand the counter-culture which had arisen since I left a year earlier. I probably looked to them like a narc or a GI on leave. But nobody was disrespectful. Nobody. (At one point, I actually approached a long-haired couple and asked if I could buy them dinner and talk, which we did. It was very enlightening.)

I am upset that you would take the Nixonian view here. It seems to me you have some unfinished business about this, TN.

[TahitiNut]

140. Read much?

Just where do I make any insinuation about the policial ideology of those doing the spitting?

Posts that attempt to portray this as a "left vs. right" (in today's terms) issue are just fucking insane! The southern Democrats had not been 'strategized' to the Republican party at this time. The war in Vietnam split the left! It was "Johnson's War" and the poltical factionalization at the time was "left vs. left."

There's not a damned thing that's 'Nixonian' about my experience. The vast majority of people my age at that time had no well-formed political ideology. I sure as hell didn't and recall only superficial bullshit discussion in my peer group.

I'm glad it didn't happen to you. Huah! Big fucking deal. The "if it didn't happen to me then it didn't happen" is the kind of crapola I'd expect from the Busholini crowd .. not from anyone claiming to be 'progressive'.

So, don't worry your "beautiful mind" about it! :grr:

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

163. Aren't you the one making accusations about "liberals"?

[TahitiNut]

No, I'm not. (And I regard your specious allegations as insulting.)

There seem to be many present-day (self-proclaimed, of course) "liberals" (who would rather be called 'progressives' for reasons of either clay feet or ill-formed ideologies) who don't have the slightest notion of the politics of the 60's and early 70's.

Guess what? There were both "liberals" and "conservatives" in the Democratic Party.
Guess what? There were both "liberals" and "conservatives" in the Republican Party.
Guess what? There were both "war-mongers" and "pacifists" in the Democratic Party.
Guess what? There were both "war-mongers" and "pacifists" in the Republican Party.

Today's not the same. With few exceptions (always called "moderates" or "centrists"), true liberals are either Democrats or Greens and both conservatives and neoconservatives are Republicans. Never before in recent US history have these terms been as congruent with the political parties.

We have what I see as the equivalent (not in scale but in theme) of "Holocaust Deniers" now attempting to repudiate and escape some total "strawman" that returning Vietnam Veterans weren't spit at or on. (What's the real difference?)

This seems to be motivated from some desire to reject ideological/partisan association with such behavior.

It'd be sooo convenient if it didn't really happen that some seem to be willing to actually believe it didn't. It did. That's a fact.

People seem so blinded by partisan ideology that they're unwilling to accept that it did happen. Some try to escape recognition of their own denial by pretending that the number of instance weren't enough to warrant claiming it happened. This is ethical bankruptcy. How many murders does it take to call someone a murderer? How many thefts does it take to call someone a thief? How many rapes does it take to call someone a rapist? How many lies does it take to call someone a liar?

Do you really need a flood of preserved spittle to convince you that a person's experneice is as they say? Then you're not worth convincing and your 'opinion' is worthless.

I've read Lembke's work. It's bullshit denial. He makes presumptions about "if it happened that such-and-so would be the case" that indicate to me that he's resting on fallacies to achieve an ideological abdication of some presumed responsibility ... which I say is nothing but a strawman. Lembke seems to me to be as intellectually 'honest' as lawyers who are members of the Federalist Society or economists that're members of the Heritage Foundation. The bias of partisan ideology is clearly driving a specious agenda.

In my view, the people who try to claim that (enough?) returning Vietnam Vets weren't (adequately?) spit on (or at) are the moral equivalent of the Swiftboat Liars!! I know differently, from personal experience! I have also talked with many vets I've trusted whose experience were similar to my own.

At the very same time, it's completely false to ascribe such reprehensible behavior to Democrats (which people now equate to "liberals")! (At the time, the terms were NOT synonymous!) Nixon (the Quaker) probably got FAR MORE "anti-war" votes than Humphrey! So, if anything, the "spitting hippie" was more likely to be a "Republican" at the time.

When people attempt to stamp those days with the same terminology templates of today, I lose patience. I have very little patience with prideful ignorance or myopic partisanship ... especially the kind that attempts to re-write history and disenfranchise people from their personal experiences.

I don't call that "liberal" ... I call that ethical bankruptcy.

---

Here's the "bottom line" ...
Did it happen to many vets? Yes. Undoubtedly.
Has it been exaggerated by people with a political agenda? Yes. Undoubtedly.
Are partisan people trying to blame "the other side" for this behavior? Yes. Undoubtedly.
Are partisan people trying to escape that blame by saying it didn't happen? Yes. Undoubtedly.

To the last three groups of people I say "Fuck you and the whores you rode in on!"

[WinterStorm]

132. Some of them were spit on

I remember that when I was a kid that it did happen. The hippy's would spit on the vets when they walked down the street with their uniforms on and they called them baby killers.

[Merlin]

139. You were just a kid, but you "remember ?" How about some specifics. n/t

.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

146. You were just a kid....were you watching a movie, perhaps...

...or did you swallow some bad acid?

[WinterStorm]

147. I was too young to do drugs

I know what happened I saw it with my own eyes. I grew up in a large city and some of the ignorant hippy's spit on the vet's.

It wasn't a movie because it was the late 60's and we didn't have movies out about Viet Nam at that time and we also didn't have cable like some of you kids do.

Kids didn't do acid so you need to watch what you have to say or write down.

You sound pretty stupid when you make a comment like that.

[thebigidea]

149. The Green Berets. 1968. John Wayne propaganda piece.

Kids didn't do acid in the late 60s? Er? This must be a different 60s.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

155. Maybe he's a "Slider" from an alternate earth.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

154. And you sound pretty stupid when you don't check out to whom you're....

...responding. Read my post #115 first and then add the following:

My familiy's first television set was an old black and white in 1957 when we moved to Florida. I was old enough to be protesting the war while still in high school in 1968 and 1969, and continued to do so when I left for college in 1969 to include 1970 and 1971.

If such an incident took place as you described, it would have been all over the papers and the nightly network news. It wasn't.

I'm going to ask you just like I've asked all of the others that have posted this story to the board...where's your documentation to back-up your assertions?

Oh, by the way, I don't know where you grew up, but kids were doing acid when I was in high school in Virginia from 1965-1969. I know because I knew them personally.

One more point...John Wayne's movie "The Green Berets" came out in 1968...so much for your assertion that there were no Vietnam movies in the late 1960s.

[TahitiNut]

157. Anyone that regards 'The Green Berets' a "Vietnam movie" ...

... has their colon in the way of their eyesight. That movie was regarded as a total joke by every guy I served with. Yes, it was shown at Long Binh while I was there in '69. We threw crap at the screen. We regarded it as an obscenity.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

159. Whatever you say...but back home it was a "Vietnam movie"...

...and a lot of people believed it was telling the truth because John Wayne was in the starring role.

[TahitiNut]

174. Well then, I guess the "Lion King" is a Nature Film, huh?

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

Nobody with a functioning brain regarded it as anything but a cartoon - about as close to being about Vietnam as 'Finding Nemo' is about the ocean.

[thebigidea]

162. oh, c'mon now. It was absolute crap, but was presented as...

... patriotic idiocy about the Vietnam war. Nobody is arguing that it was accurate, just refuting the above post.

[Aries]

134. An urban legend, according to "The Spitting Image"

http://politics.slate.msn.com/id/1005224/

...Although Nexis overflows with references to protesters gobbing on Vietnam vets, and Bob Greene's 1989 book Homecoming: When the Soldiers Returned From Vietnam counts 63 examples of protester spitting, Jerry Lembcke argues that the story is bunk in his 1998 book The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam. Lembcke, a professor of sociology at Holy Cross and a Vietnam vet, investigated hundreds of news accounts of antiwar activists spitting on vets. But every time he pushed for more evidence or corroboration from a witness, the story collapsed--the actual person who was spat on turned out to be a friend of a friend. Or somebody's uncle. He writes that he never met anybody who convinced him that any such clash took place.

While Lembcke doesn't prove that nobody ever expectorated on a serviceman--you can't prove a negative, after all--he reduces the claim to an urban myth. In most urban myths, the details morph slightly from telling to telling, but at least one element survives unchanged. In the tale of the spitting protester, the signature element is the location: The protester almost always ambushes the serviceman at the airport--not in a park, or at a bar, or on Main Street. Also, it's not uncommon for the insulted serviceman to have flown directly in from Vietnam. In the most dramatic telling of the spitting story, First Blood (1982), the first installment of the series about a vengeful Vietnam vet, the airport is the scene of the outrage. John Rambo, played by Sylvester Stallone, gives a speech about getting spat upon. Rambo says:

It wasn't my war. You asked me, I didn't ask you. And I did what I had to do to win. But somebody wouldn't let us win. Then I come back to the world and I see all those maggots at the airport. Protesting me. Spitting. Calling me baby killer. ... Who are they to protest me? Huh?

Of course, the myth of the spitting protester predates the Rambo movies, but how many vets--many of whom didn't get the respect they thought they deserved after serving their country--retrofitted this memory after seeing the movie? Soldiers returning from lost wars have long healed their psychic wounds by accusing their governments and their countrymen of betrayal, Lembcke writes. Also, the spitting story resonates with biblical martyrdom. As the soldiers put the crown of thorns on Jesus and led him to his crucifixtion, they beat him with a staff and spat on him...

...The myth persists because: 1) Those who didn't go to Vietnam--that being most of us--don't dare contradict the "experience" of those who did; 2) the story helps maintain the perfect sense of shame many of us feel about the way we ignored our Vietvets; 3) the press keeps the story in play by uncritically repeating it, as the Times and U.S. News did; and 4) because any fool with 33 cents and the gumption to repeat the myth in his letter to the editor can keep it in circulation. Most recent mentions of the spitting protester in Nexis are of this variety....

[Kathy in Cambridge]

136. JudgeSmales sleeps with the fishes

that was fun. I can go to brunch now. Bye! :hi:

[murray hill farm]

152. It did happen!

during the ending years of protest, it did turn ugly..taken over in many ways by those who turned on the soldiers and blamed them for going to war...and enabling it to continue..but this happens always during social revolution and change..most of the original peaceful protest activists were backing away from the scene by that time..once it turned more violent..feeling that it had been taken over by those who didn't have a clue as to what the original protest was about and didn't support the peaceful process of protest.

[Misunderestimator]

156. Well put, mexicopat...

And I LOVE Isla Mujeres. What a wonderful island. I vacationed there many, many years ago. A peaceful and charming place in stark contrast to nearby Cancun.

Welcome to DU!

[murray hill farm]

164. thanks, misundersetimator!

yes...Isla Mujeres is a very fine place..even with the spill over of tourists ..on day trips to the island, from Cancun, it is still basically a fishing village...and a paradise to me. Hope you get a chance to come here again. It is still beautiful and peaceful..like going back in time..to what it was like in the USA in the 1940s..even my wringer washer will testify to that....ha!

[GingerSnaps]

168. It did happen

I was in grade school at the end of the Viet Nam War and I remember it happening.

Kids didn't "drop" acid back in the late 60's or early 70's.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

160. Documentation? Links? Anything?

[put out]

171. MLD, I would like to know the evidence that people were

spitting upon soldiers. I was born in 60 and remember quite a bit. I knew troops getting home in 1974 and 1975. Went to college with them, dated them, partied with them. Maybe sometime somewhere some poor soul was spat upon by a misguided and exceedingly stupid citizen. I don't know about that; it wasn't reported by any reliable source and no one I knew had seen it or heard about it except through some civilian who couldn't back up his story (usually told while drunk). If it did, what a shame. So, folks, did it? Can you show me? Anything but "I just believe it happened"?

However, I do know for a fact that people were dropping acid in the 60s and 70s. Oh, yes indeed they were.

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moderator]

172. Media_Lies_Daily

Please address any concerns with the administration of DU to the Ask the Administrators forum, here:

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DU Mod

[Moderator]

177. Locking.......

I would like to remind everyone that discussions
on this board must be conducted in a civil manner
with no personal attacks. This topic is very
divisive and there is no way that it can be
settled peacefully. I guess it all boils down
to respecting others, even if you don't agree
with with them.



Thank you for understanding.


DU Moderator