Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

How serious is this gas shortage?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 09:52 AM
Original message
How serious is this gas shortage?
Supposedly the problems in AZ were due to a ruptured pipeline? I did not realize they were so dependent on a pipeline. In Colorado, they usually bring the gas to the stations in tanker trucks...But, prices have gone up here also. Premium gas was about $1.82 yesterday. And from what I have read, prices have gone up almost everywhere?

Rather than an electricity blackout, is our next energy problem going to be a shortage in petroleum products? Will the shortages still be hitting the consumers when winter arrives? Where is the oil from Iraq that was going to keep our gas prices down? Any ideas?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. It'll get here...
...but don't count on the prices going back down right away.

They ALWAYS go down much slower than they go up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
2. Whether intentional or not, it will be exploited politically
Every "energy crisis" since they began in 1974 has been used by the petrolium industry and its lapdogs in government to rally for drilling in the ANWR or off the California coast.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
3. No oil is coming out of Iraq...
...we are actually IMPORTING oil into Iraq right now, by the millions of barrels. Gotta have something to run those tanks and bradleys with, and we're also doling out gas (for free) to Iraqis fortunate enough not to have had their cars jacked yet...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
4. Somehow the gas companies always manage
to underproduce gas for the summer. Then there is always a problem someplace in the line. And gas prices have to be set high. You would think their market analasys would figure out that demand goes up in the summer. But no. There always seems to be a shortage. Poor little gas corporations.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Remember back in the 90s
When gas prices fell to the lowest levels (adjusted for inflation) in ages? In most places in the country prices were below a dollar a gallon. Damn that Bill Clinton! Thank god we got rid of him. The country just couldn't take much more peace and prosperity not to mention cheap gas on top of everything else.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9803/22/briefs.pm/gas.prices/

http://www.news-gazette.com/story.cfm?Number=4426
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
meegbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
5. I don't understand it ....
I can see how it would affect AZ, but the rest of the country? And just in time for the holiday weekend too. Hmmmm ....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. One can only imagine the windfall profits the oil companies reap when
the price of every gallon in the U.S. jumps fifteen cents.(national average of increase) The screwing of America. Why would an electrical outtage cause gas prices to rise???????
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
6. in Portland,
premium has already hit $2.19 a gallon.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
8. There is no gas shortage
Thanks for repeating the RNC propoganda.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
9. The Blackout took many refineries out of service
supply and demand
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. I do not have the figures but an enormous amount of our oil is refined
on the Gulf Coast where there was no blackout. Percentage wise I am betting about 3/4ths. Maybe someone really knows.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
11. What gas shortage?
I just filled my Jeep for $1.40 a gallon in VA Beach.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
12. The farther Bush* drops in the polls the more serious it will become.
The call is out. More money and that is how the money will be raised. It is kind of like the great California rip off of 2001. There is no shortage just greed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
14. Premium is >$2 in the Exurbs of Chicago!
It went up 20 cents overnight this past weekend.

The refinery/black out thing is also a bit of canard. Over 75% of the refining capacity of the United States is in the midwest and Texas. The largest refineries in the country were all in areas unaffected by either the blackout or the pipeline leak.

This is an anticipatory/speculative bubble. By now, the expectation amongst the big commodity traders was that gasoline would be cheap, what with all the Iraqi oil flowing. Now, things are against the wall, and the price is being bid up in anticipation of a supply problem in the foreseeable future, since the leverage expected from our Iraqi adventure is not bearing its black fruit.

There is as much oil coming into the U.S. as there was before. The price is not really based upon supply and demand, no matter what they say. There is a huge element of speculation and another of emotion that play into the price we pay for gas.

On top of that, when the crude prices rise, or when the commodity price of unleaded gas goes up, the oil companies maintain a constant proportional margin. So the higher the price of oil, the more money they make; the higher the price of unleaded gas on the market, the more money they make. It's win:win for them.
The Professor
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sal316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
15. The more I read about this pipeline story here...
...the fishier it smells.

We have no refineries here, so ALL of our gas is pumped/trucked in.

The pipeline that broke was responsible for only 30% of the Valley's gas supply. The other 70% or so comes from the California pipeline. Plus, Kinder Morgan used to be Enron Liquid Pipeline.

Fortunately today 80% of the stations here have gas, compared to 30% a week ago. Unfortunately it's still about $2.20 for cheapo unleaded and not expected to go down anytime soon.

I need another 8 hours a day to be able to try to figure out what the hell is going on here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
16. Go to some of the Web sites that cover the upcoming Oil peak
One of the characteristics of any depletion industry (be it coal, oil or Natural Gas) is the ups and down in prices. What happens is as demand goes up for a product, prices for that product goes up. Producers of that product than start to bring more product on line. This leads to over production. The overproduction creates a situation of excess supply and the price drops. As the price drop producers stop producing. At some point production drops below demand and the boom bust cycle restarts.

To compensate for this some mechanism is used to level out the Booms and Busts. In the oil industry that was Standard Oil prior to its break up in 1912 (and in many ways for years afterwards). Remember Monopolies do NOT like excessive prices, the big profit is in charging just a little bit extra (Often no more than 10% extra) but while over the amount the price should be.

Starting in the 1930s the mechanism to control the booms and bust in the oil industry was the Texas Railroad commission (which controlled Texas Oil production and thus the price of world wide oil). The Texas Railroad Commission lost this power in 1970 when US Domestic Oil Production peaked and started to fall. The Texas Railroad Commission was NOT able to control the price of oil for Texas was producingall it could and still could not meet demand. Demand was meet by OPEC who found out in the 1970s that OPEC was the world's "swing" producer. The term "swing producer" is used to describe the producer who is setting world wide price by controlling the level of production. Till 1912 that was Standard oil, before 1970 it was Texas and the Texas Railroad Commission, since 1979 it has been Saudi Arabia and OPEC.

One of the problems that manifested itself in the early 1970s (When Texas lost its status as the “Swing producer”) was the growing fluctuation in the price of oil. This did not stabilized till Reagan and the Saudis accepting that their were the World’s Swing oil producer.

When the Saudi’s lose their status as the World Swing oil producer than you again will have wide variation in the price of oil. The problem being is the Saudis will lose control of Oil production (and thus price) sometime around world wide oil production peak (the point when world wide oil production peaks and starts to fall, and to keep falling for about 100 years when oil will be depleted). They is some debate as to when this will happen, but the variation in price will start just as oil production peaks and than return to a series of Booms and Busts in price. Remember to control the price of oil you control the production of oil. This is easy when production is increasing, but fails when production is Decreasing. The reason for the failure is sooner or later the “real” production level will drop below the level set by the Swing producer and the Swing producer will lose control of production. Thus it is almost impossible to control the booms and bust in a declining depletion industry.

What has this to do with the present oil situation? We are approaching peak production. The only question is when? Three dates are given (and these dates may be off 2-3 years). The latest is 2020 and that assumes OPEC is telling the whole truth on its oil capacity (Please note several geologist point out OPEC had VERY good reasons to LIE about oil production Capacity and apparently has done so since the mid-1980s). The majority view is 2008 (and this assumes that OPEC is lying, but the Seven Sisters were telling the truth on oil Capacity when their control the Oils fields of OPEC prior to the 1970s). The third estimate was 2002 (Please note we are still within the error rate of the prediction peak of 2002. This estimates is based on the presumption that the Seven Sisters had good reasons to overestimate oil production capacity. This is supported by the fact none of the Seven sisters complained much when the fields were taken over in the early 1970s unlike what happen in Mexico in 1938 and Iran in 1952. Could it be the seven sisters were over paid? I.e. paid on over inflated oil capacity levels? We will NOT know for decades, if ever.)

Thus if we are near peak, than NO ONE will control the production of oil and thus no one controls the price. This will leads to wide variation in the price of oil, one month it may be $2 a gallon the next $1. The third month $5 and the fourth month back to a $1. This may be happening now.

Now in real term the present price peak in the East is being caused by the shut down of oil refineries do to the Black out last week. The destruction of the Iraqi pipeline should not affect our prices for another four weeks (The general rule is it takes four weeks for a price hike to get from the well head to your gas pump, eight weeks for a price drop).

Thus part of the problem is the upcoming oil production peak, the question is it the MAIN reason? Or do we have some time left?

http://www.hubbertpeak.com/

http://healthandenergy.com/oil_crisis.htm




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I'm bookmarking this one eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dissenting_Prole Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. If you want to hear about oil peak from the source...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
18. this is something taken right out of the 1980's
I ran across a Feb.,1981 edition of National Geographic (collect them) and ran across an article discussing this back in 1979! It's amazing the similarities and the Reagan Administration had just begun...what a coincidence!!!

It spoke of how much we need to ween ourselves off foreign oil and try other sources of energy.

I tried going to the archives to download this edition but for some reason I couldn't get it to download.

It's an excellent read.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
20. $2.05/gallon for cheap ARCO gas in San Diego!
At the end of july it was $1.55/gallon.
Fifty cents a gallon in less than 4 weeks!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri May 03rd 2024, 05:25 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC