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How come Kerry wont call this war what it IS?

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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 10:44 PM
Original message
How come Kerry wont call this war what it IS?
a PREVENTIVE WAR.

i don't get it... in my mind it would be a body slam against the whole neoCON 'doctrine' (read EXTREMISM) the clear LEGAL deliniation of WHY the bush policies are WRONG?

why doesn't he? what is the political liability here?

is it because he thinks we can 'WIN' in iraq?

little help?

peace
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't know what a preventive war is...explain please
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shoopnyc123 Donating Member (997 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. Darling, PRE-EMTIVE
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Stew225 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Thanks shoop! Now we know why he
didn't call it that. It would have made him sound stupid!
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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. What sounds stupid is someone who doesn't understand the difference
between preventative and preemptive. To preempt there must be a an immanent threat...there was none. To prevent there need only be an irrational paranoia squirming around between your ears.

The war in Iraq was a preventative war....it preempted NOTHING.

RC
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. It's only pre-emptive if you pre-empt something.
Did Bush pre-empt Iraq attacking the United States? No.

A preventative war is different: Going to war to prevent a hypothetical future threat from arising.

Eisenhower dismissed the idea of a preventative war against the Soviet Union, for which some generals were calling: "All of us have heard this term 'preventive war' since the earliest days of Hitler. I don't believe there is such a thing; and, frankly, I wouldn't even listen to anyone seriously that came in and talked about such a thing."

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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. the supreme international crime
Edited on Thu Sep-30-04 11:11 PM by bpilgrim
PREEMPTIVE war is NOT what the PROBLEM here is as kerry noted in his speech as a RIGHT of ANY nation backed up by the UN.

what makes this war and foreign policy so WRONG and ILLEGAL. WHY? because it doesn't meet the LEGAL standard to JUSTIFY PREEMPTIVE war is IMMINENT THREAT. this war is ILLEGAL because it is fighting a WAR in order to 'PREVENT' a war that is NOT imminent but to occur sometime in the FUTURE.

that is the very same right IMPERIAL japan and HITLER claimed during wwII.

this my friend is what WE defined as AGGRESSIVE WAR which is NEVER justified legally.



"Justice Robert Jackson, chief U.S. prosecutor at the first Nuremberg
trial, called waging aggressive war "the supreme international crime
differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within
itself the accumulated evil of the whole.""

...

"We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which their fallen leaders are on trial is not that they lost the war, but that they started it. And we must not allow ourselves to be drawn into a trial of the causes of the war, for our position is that no grievances or policies will justify resort to aggressive war. It is utterly renounced and condemned as an instrument of policy." - Justice Robert Jackson, chief U.S. prosecutor at the first Nuremberg
trial

source...
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/jack02.htm

:hi:

peace
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Prevention assumes a problem.
just as much as preemption.

It was unjustified war, that is what matters, it was unjustified.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. sometime in the unknown FUTURE
Edited on Thu Sep-30-04 11:46 PM by bpilgrim
and NOT an imminent threat which is the ONLY justification for PREMPTIVE WAR which there was 0 evidence for.

HUGE difference.

peace
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. I disagree.
The only justified preventative war is one that prevents and imminent threat. The issue isnt whether it was preventive or preemptive. The issue is whether the threat was imminent and thus whether the war was justified on the basis of self defense.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. oh, really?

Preventive War 'the Supreme Crime'



Iraq: invasion that will live in infamy

...

"The grand strategy authorizes Washington to carry out “preventive war”: Preventive, not pre-emptive. Whatever the justifications for pre-emptive war might be, they do not hold for preventive war, particularly as that concept is interpreted by its current enthusiasts: the use of military force to eliminate an invented or imagined threat, so that even the term “preventive” is too charitable. Preventive war is, very simply, the “supreme crime” condemned at Nuremberg."

more...
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20030811.htm

peace
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. Can we win?
No. At least not in the way we did WW2.

But Kerry can't say we will lose. If he did, the election would already be over.

I would imagine that Kerry's idea of a "Win" would be that we can get out of Iraq with that area being at least a little better off than it was when we invaded.

Kerry was asked if a President should be able to do a pre-emptive attack, and he rightly said yes. But, as he has always done, he said this war was wrong, and it's W's fault.

Can't argue with that, eh?
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Nope, W broke it now we gotta fix it.... n/t
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. what's that got to do with PREVENTIVE vs PREEMPTIVE?
i would never advise a candidate for president to say that we would lose no matter what country they were running for but especially here.

i think it would HELP his case to be clear and PRECISE on this critical point because THAT is what everyone fears that not only are the neoCONs are war mongers but EXTREMIST and RADICAL that they would fight an ILLEGAL WAR and we should exploit that, no?

i don't know i just don't get it and more importantly it makes me worried that he wont clearly CHALLENGE this neoCON doctrine on this clearly ILLEGAL and DESTABILIZING trait of our current policy and it will help him with the plan to bring the international community back into the fold, no?

:shrug:

kerry still kicked numb-nuts a$$ anyways, so i certainly pumped about that :bounce:

peace
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
29. You ain't gonna like this answer.. no one does
America currently has a lynch-mob mentality going. The revenge for 9/11 is the driving force.

If Kerry seems to be set against that mentality, he's toast.

The only thing b**sh has going for him is 9/11. He's milking it for every drop he can get, and doing a good job of it, eh?

You can bet it grates Kerry tremendously to have to play the match the way it's set, and the tightrope he's walking.

Not until Kerry is President can he display his true feelings and begin working on the lynch-mob reaction mentality.

Look for an all out attack on the 'preventive war' idea then.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. i can understand that
and i hope he does bring it up when he is our president because this in my mind is the biggest problem with our current foreign policy.

i TRUST kerry and i believe he will do the right thing when he is in power and i simply can't wait :bounce:

:hi:

peace
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
22.  Letter from a US soldier "Why We Cannot Win" by Al Lorentz
Letter from a US soldier Why We Cannot Win by Al Lorentz

Before I begin, let me state that I am a soldier currently deployed in Iraq, I am not an armchair quarterback. Nor am I some politically idealistic and naÃve young soldier, I am an old and seasoned Non-Commissioned Officer with nearly 20 years under my belt. Additionally, I am not just a soldier with a muds-eye view of the war, I am in Civil Affairs and as such, it is my job to be aware of all the events occurring in this country and specifically in my region. I have come to the conclusion that we cannot win here for a number of reasons. Ideology and idealism will never trump history and reality. When we were preparing to deploy, I told my young soldiers to beware of the "political solution." Just when you think you have the situation on the ground in hand, someone will come along with a political directive that throws you off the tracks. I believe that we could have won this un-Constitutional invasion of Iraq and possibly pulled off the even more un-Constitutional occupation and subjugation of this sovereign nation. It might have even been possible to foist democracy on these people who seem to have no desire, understanding or respect for such an institution. True the possibility of pulling all this off was a long shot and would have required several hundred billion dollars and even more casualties than weâve seen to date but again it would have been possible, not realistic or necessary but possible. Here are the specific reasons why we cannot win in Iraq. First, we refuse to deal in reality. We are in a guerilla war, but because of politics, we are not allowed to declare it a guerilla war and must label the increasingly effective guerilla forces arrayed against us as "terrorists, criminals and dead-enders." This implies that there is a zero sum game at work, i.e. we can simply kill X number of the enemy and then the fight is over, mission accomplished, everybody wins. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We have few tools at our disposal and those are proving to be wholly ineffective at fighting the guerillas. The idea behind fighting a guerilla army is not to destroy its every man (an impossibility since he hides himself by day amongst the populace). Rather the idea in guerilla warfare is to erode or destroy his base of support. So long as there is support for the guerilla, for every one you kill two more rise up to take his place. More importantly, when your tools for killing him are precision guided munitions, raids and other acts that create casualties among the innocent populace, you raise the support for the guerillas and undermine the support for yourself. (A 500-pound precision bomb has a casualty-producing radius of 400 meters minimum; do the math.) Second, our assessment of what motivates the average Iraqi was skewed, again by politically motivated "experts." We came here with some fantasy idea that the natives were all ignorant, mud-hut dwelling camel riders who would line the streets and pelt us with rose petals, lay palm fronds in the street and be eternally grateful. While at one time there may have actually been support and respect from the locals, months of occupation by our regular military forces have turned the formerly friendly into the recently hostile. Attempts to correct the thinking in this regard are in vain; it is not politically correct to point out the fact that the locals are not only disliking us more and more, they are growing increasingly upset and often overtly hostile. Instead of addressing the reasons why the locals are becoming angry and discontented, we allow politicians in Washington DC to give us pat and convenient reasons that are devoid of any semblance of reality. We are told that the locals are not upset because we have a hostile, aggressive and angry Army occupying their nation. We are told that they are not upset at the police state we have created, or at the manner of picking their representatives for them. Rather we are told, they are upset because of a handful of terrorists, criminals and dead enders in their midst have made them upset, that and of course the ever convenient straw man of "left wing media bias." Third, the guerillas are filling their losses faster than we can create them. This is almost always the case in guerilla warfare, especially when your tactics for battling the guerillas are aimed at killing guerillas instead of eroding their support. For every guerilla we kill with a "smart bomb" we kill many more innocent civilians and create rage and anger in the Iraqi community. This rage and anger translates into more recruits for the terrorists and less support for us. We have fallen victim to the body count mentality all over again. We have shown a willingness to inflict civilian casualties as a necessity of war without realizing that these same casualties create waves of hatred against us. These angry Iraqi citizens translate not only into more recruits for the guerilla army but also into more support of the guerilla army. Fourth, their lines of supply and communication are much shorter than ours and much less vulnerable. We must import everything we need into this place; this costs money and is dangerous. Whether we fly the supplies in or bring them by truck, they are vulnerable to attack, most especially those brought by truck. This not only increases the likelihood of the supplies being interrupted. Every bean, every bullet and every bandage becomes infinitely more expensive. Conversely, the guerillas live on top of their supplies and are showing every indication of developing a very sophisticated network for obtaining them. Further, they have the advantage of the close support of family and friends and traditional religious networks. Fifth, we consistently underestimate the enemy and his capabilities. Many military commanders have prepared to fight exactly the wrong war here. Our tactics have not adjusted to the battlefield and we are falling behind. Meanwhile the enemy updates his tactics and has shown a remarkable resiliency and adaptability. Because the current administration is more concerned with its image than it is with reality, it prefers symbolism to substance: soldiers are dying here and being maimed and crippled for life. It is tragic, indeed criminal that our elected public servants would so willingly sacrifice our nation's prestige and honor as well as the blood and treasure to pursue an agenda that is ahistoric and un-Constitutional. It is all the more ironic that this un-Constitutional mission is being performed by citizen soldiers such as myself who swore an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States, the same oath that the commander in chief himself has sworn. September 20, 2004 Al Lorentz is former state chairman of the Constitution Party of Texas and is a reservist currently serving with the US Army in Iraq.

source...
http://politics.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=123915&threshold=1&commentsort=0&tid=103&tid=1&tid=219&mode=thread&cid=10401265

peace
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
8. "Premeditated" is what I'd call it - PNAC
Premeditated war, genicide, torture, theft...

Geaux Kerry! :kick:
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. good point...
Edited on Thu Sep-30-04 11:32 PM by bpilgrim
and WHY do they keep saying saddam had to 'DISARM', like that is even a legit point these days, when we ALL now know that, he WAS disarmed?! :crazy:

peace
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
10. I think Kerry is testing the waters. (On how he'll indeed deal in Iraq)
He may come out a little clearer on the next debate depending how this is spun. Kerry is giving junior something to think about on the summit conference thingy with the Iraqis.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. true
i realize he needs to be very careful here but i actually thing this would be a good talking point and easily fits in a sound-byte... 'PREVENTIVE WAR'

:shrug:

man but he sure had COMMAND of this event didn't he :bounce:

and the chimp literally was caught in the headlights a couple times - lol

:hi: 0007 :toast:

peace
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dennis4868 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
15. Kerry was great tonihgt in so many....
different ways but what I dont get is when he said over and over that Sadaam was a threat.....why doesn't Kerry attack Bush for the bad intelligence (CIA agents told the senate that they felt pressured to give the WH what they wanted with regards to WMD in Iraq) and go after Bush on hyping the intelligence as well. But all he says is that Sadaam was a threat! NO HE WAS NOT AND MANY INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES IN OUR GOVERNMENT SAID HE WAS NOT! I wish Kerry would hold Bush accountable for the lies leading up to the war....
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. dig it...
and that he - saddam - had to 'DISARM' :wtf: are they ALL talk'n bout?

we all now know that he WAS disarmed :argh:

i agree, bush lied THOUSANDS DIED!

:hi:

peace
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
17. Because you can't say "Cluster-F***" on Teee-Veeee.
At least not on CBS...Wonder if there's gonna be trouble over showing Bar's boob like that?

Pre-emptive, preventative...So is it any more rightous and legal if it's a "preventative" war?

I don't think so, but what do I know? I'm just a dumb VCR mechanic, not a poli-sci PhD....
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-30-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. lol
Edited on Thu Sep-30-04 11:46 PM by bpilgrim
i hear ya, but it IS a very important distinction LEGALLY which i HOPE still matters.

but, wtf do i know, i'm just a punk philly kid :shrug:

hopefully some of our DU biggies will weigh in here ;-)

:hi:

peace
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
23. Jeezus- lighten up. Kerry kicked some ass.
So a few nuances bothered you- ease up for krist's sake.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. from the rest of the world's perspective
the difference between pre-eptive war and preventative war is NOT a nuance
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Kerry knows these things
but there is only so far you can go on national t.v. If he called Bush on the preventive/pre-emptive war and the fake intel it may have hurt him more than helped him. All this in good time. After he takes office he can DO something about it and have absolute proof that the intel was stovepiped and it was an illegal war.

In the meantime, he took names and kicked ass..he's known for doing just that. First he has to get elected. As my mother always said, first things first.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
26. Why not just "aggression"?
"preventive war" still makes it sound like some bullet down the line was bravely dodged, which is of course bullshit.

Kerry won't tell the truth because somebody in his position just can't. That is thus why nobody in his position, which is Bush's, should be expected for such candor and to spout such ridiculous nonsense as "the truth".
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. why not?
and preventive war is a war crime.

peace
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
28. Wes Clark has called it a preventive war and noted it was not...
pre-emptive. I think Kerry believes the same way. I wish he had articulated that point.
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