I thought Bush did well

[Goldmund]

Hold them flame-throwers, lemme explain.

Of course Kerry won the debate. Bush's positions are indefensible, and I think that Kerry would have won the debate even if their respective intellectual capacities were reversed, and Kerry was the dumb one -- simply because it's a thankless job to have to defend policies like Bush has had. On top of that, Kerry did above my expectations and obliterated the Chimp.

But I'm totally, completely, floored by the pundit classes definitely leaning toward giving last night to Kerry. Joe Scarborough... Hello? Rush listeners making up excuses that Bush didn't do well because he was visiting hurricane victims... Mort Kondracke??? Online polls?

Makes me wonder -- yeah, of course Bush was a moron, but Bush has ALWAYS been a moron; I certainly think he did a lot better last night than at his last press conference, for example, and after that disaster he was "spontaneous" and "strong" and even "eloquent".

Pundits complaining that Bush was "repetitive"... Eh??? When exactly has Bush NOT been repetitive? I thought that was "staying on message".

"Arrogant angry smirk" -- were they blind during the last 4 years??? I thought that was his "resoluteness".

After watching last night, I thought that Bush gave the bots enough to base their propaganda on. He certainly didn't give them any less than he usually does.

I guess I have a lot left to learn about our media and political culture.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[Goldmund]

3. What?

[lancdem]

2. I know what you mean

Perhaps it's because Bush and Kerry were on the same stage for the first time, so Bush's ineptitude was so stark it couldn't be ignored.

[Goldmund]

6. Yes -- that's the best explanation I can think of as well

And maybe also that his "how dare you question me" smirk is perceived differently when used against journalists than when used against a candidate running against you in a race for office.

[Qanisqineq]

4. I thought he was on the defensive so much

and his horrible body language -- I can't see how he did well. However, my mother said he seemed "folksy". And Imus was defending Dubya this morning while the other people on his morning show (* supporters) thought he did horribly.

On the other hand, there were a couple times I was disappointed in Kerry. Mainly, the $87 billion. I don't think a lot of people understand his voting there.

[Goldmund]

5. I agree with you

But again, his "horrible body language" is a constant. I've felt like I was living in a twilight zone world in the last 4 years where that disgusting creature was actually labeled "likable". Now the pundits are complaining about his body language, smirking, etc. I don't get it. It's not like he just yesterday started this "horrible" body language. It's always _been_ horrible.

[TahitiNut]

7. Well, he was like a drowning man at a swimming meet ...

... getting credit for keeping his swimsuit on. :crazy:

[Goldmund]

8. Exactly

And then, after last night -- "well, President Bush didn't actually swim well last night".

[Vickers]

22. Ha! Perfect analogy!

Or simile.

Or whatever it was!

:spank:

[daydreamer]

9. I agree

Considering Bush's record, he did very well.

[Goldmund]

11. Yes, but not only his political record

But his history of public speaking (if that's what you call it) -- I don't understand how anybody who's watched Bush in the last 4 years could have possibly expected him to do better. I definitely expected him to do worse.

[skygazer]

10. Maybe it's because we had a comparison

Usually it's just him smirking at the podium, most often with a hand picked, loyalty oath signing crowd to ooh and aah at him. Last night he stood next to an intelligent, articulate man - easy to see the difference.

[Kid_A]

12. Bush was distracted by HURRICANE VICTIMS??????

I hadn't heard that one yet. Eventually these people will have to wise up and admit to themselves that Bush lost because he is extremely underqualified for the job, and his presidency has been so stage managed that it ended up hurting him in the end. Having a President who's insulated from the reality of the world may make him appear more confident at his rallies, but put him in a room with a guy who's had his ear to the ground for 35 years and he'll get his ass kicked.

[Goldmund]

13. Yeah

Actually, the WH released a statement to that effect -- that his "tired look" was due to being emotionally drained from visiting the hurricane victims.

[fortyfeetunder]

27. Bushistas. give me a effing break!

If he was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO tired from comforting the FL hurricane victims, then he should have a mental breakdown comforting the 1000+ Iraq war families.

(I am kind of p'd anyway because a co-worker's close relative was just killed there)

Edited to change why I am so goddamned angry!

[KoKo]

16. A caller on C-Span said that this a.m. Bush tired because comforting FLA

Hurricane victims had worn him out. I guess the Repug Talking Point machine e-mailed everyone just after the debate last night so they "stayed on message" about Bush's disastrous performance.

Ha...so tired comforting Hurricane Victims...:puke:

[Lisa]

20. yeah, loving those widows and such can really sap a guy's strength!

Didn't see the right-wingers letting up on Clinton when he was haggard after visiting the Oklahoma City bombing survivors (or downtown NYC after Sept 11th, for that matter).

[Selwynn]

14. We have been "hardened" to just how bad it looked to most people

..media included.

Most of us have been more informed, particular, and scrutinizing than anyone in the media and most Americans. We watched Bush and saw, "eh, more of the same, he did OK - meaning he did the same and said the same things he has always said."

But that's not what most people saw...

What most people saw is Bush without shelter and protection from his handlers, without his shielding from though questions and hard criticisms, most people saw the Bush the rest of us have seen for four years for the FIRST TIME. Or at least, for the first time in a long time. He was totally rattled by Kerry's fair and reasonable criticisms of everything he's done in the last four years. There was no filter, no shield to protect him, and Bush last night looked like a dry drunk who had never had anyone be anything but a "yes man" to him for four years.

We all knew that was Bush. But I don't think the rest of America, or even the Media really knew that was Bush.

I'm not saying its all over and we win and that election is a lock. I'm just saying I think Bush gave a lot of people a wake up call.

Sel

[calimary]

21. Excellent point. Did you see Will Pitt's latest column? He said much

the same thing. This is one of those rare moments when the boy-king has to work without a net. And at those times, you suddenly notice how pathetic and weak he is, and how GIGANTIC that net was.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/100204Z.shtml

I think you both hit it on the head. He can't cut it when he's not handled.

[Goldmund]

23. Great points

I guess that from where I'm sitting it's hardly imaginable that after what we have gone through the last 4 years one would need a "wakeup call", as you put it; what I thought is that they _liked_ the idiocy, not that they didn't realize he was an idiot. That's my mistake.

[KoKo]

15. Ed Schultz (liberal radio) said that "Bush stood alone for the first time"

and "folks finally got to see what he's like without his 527's, hand picked crowd of cheering fawning worshipers."

He said public got a chance to see his personality and how much he dislikes Kerry. And, that he doesn't show "respect" for anyone, which was what he revealed last night.

He also said Bush looks forceful and resolute to his worshipers only because he has "10 Talking Points he can keep in his head" and he "repeats them over and over and over."

[Cat Atomic]

17. The difference is this:

Bush Press Conference


Bush/Kerry Debates


Last night, there was a comparison.

[Goldmund]

18. hahahaha

nice

[0007]

19. Great tricycle photo

[SOteric]

24. In my opinion, and I grant that I'm biased in favour of Kerry,

Bush was twitchy and inarticulate.

I will grant that neither of these things is new or different. But the message he hammered home was that John Kerry was confused, wishy-washy and a flip-flopper.

Kerry's statements in contrast seemed confident, clearly articulated and firm. He convinced many that he has a genuine, possible exit plan for Iraq.

Bush accused someone of flip-flopping while he himself was defensive, nervous, twitching and verbally flustered. The person accused is calm, confident, reasonable and well-spoken. I think Kerry and Bush both sent 'meta-messages' that played favourably for Kerry and poorly for Bush.

[DS1]

26. A genuine possibilty, my favorite type

:evilgrin:

[cosmicvortex20]

25. I had a bit of time to think on this too and ....

it occurs to me that even though 50 million people watched the debates, I dont think they watched all 90 mins.

The vast majority of them wouldnt have seen bush repeat himself over and over - which would have been somewhat of an intelligent debate tactic if it was deliberate (which I doubt). All he had to do was keep harping on the "kerry inconsistancy" bandwagon for the 10-20 mins the average viewer watched.

While we saw the whole picture, dont for a second think that everyone else saw it the way we did.