I don't get why some people feel the need to put down Christians.

[UrbScotty]

Something I love about this country (and especially DU) is the diversity. We have blacks, whites, Asians, Latinos and Latinas, gays, single people, people who are or were married, Christians, Atheists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., etc.

Unfortunately, I think some people here on DU seem to (for lack of better words) not like Christians simply for being Christian. As a Christian, I am disappointed both in the actions of some people who call themselves Christians and in the way some DUers seem to not like us because of those so-called Christians.

Some people who call themselves Christians think their responsibility is to shove their beliefs down other people's throats. I am angered that they do this, just like many non-Christian DUers are. But that is no reason to put all of us Christians in the same boat. I personally know of a few Christians who strongly support fellow Christian John Kerry, for example.

Do I agree with Muslims? No. But do I have a disregard for the Islam faith or Muslims simply because of what happened on September 11, 2001? Of course not! While I don't know much about Islam, I do know that it is a religion of peace, and so as a Christian I feel I have a responsibility to be peaceful and kind to Muslims as Jesus was to those who disagreed with Him in His day.

Falwell, Robertson, Swaggart, Bush, and others call themselves Christians. But so do John Kerry, John Edwards, and I. Is there any problem with being a Christian? No. Is there any problem with being an Atheist? No. Jew? Muslim? Hindu? No. So let's not infringe on one another's beliefs; let's instead take care of more important business.

[NC_Nurse]

1. I wish all Christians were as

"Christian" as you are. Unfortunately, the RW fundies are the ones that grab the headlines and make all Christians look like intolerant, ignorant close-minded people who are indeed out to shove their beliefs down everyone else's throats.
It's hard for some of us on the sidelines to tell which religous people are fanatics and which are truly spiritual. Very hard.

[patricia92243]

7. When Democrats put down Christians they fall right into the Republican

trap set for them.

[wryter2000]

9. Good point!

Worth remembering and repeating.

[ixion]

12. And when 'Christians' support Rethug values

the cease to be Christian, or at the very least they're condoning the breaking of their beloved 10 Commandments.

[Warpy]

17. Which is why we use the words like "Fundies" and

"religious nutcases." We're not putting down Christians, which people who actually read these boards know. We're putting down a nasty, narrow, intolerant, humorless, joyless, hate-filled, stingy, downright anti-Christian mindset.

And that is not falling into some sort of silly trap. That is telling it like it is. Those hateful people who are spending all their time consigning all tolerant and generous spirits to hell need to be identified as what they are, and it aint Christian.

[Ladyhawk]

73. Spot on, Warpy. eom

[Selwynn]

130. Also very true :)

[Selwynn]

134. .

[Selwynn]

129. So very, very true.

[slojim240]

147. I don't get why "Christians" feel the need to put down others.

And a hundred other things I don't get about so-called "Christians" whose only resemblence to true Christians is the name.

[FrozenNorth]

159. And Islam advocates the murder...

of homosexuals, adrulteresses, and converts. Christians may not like those folks but they don't trumpet murder as the solution. Get a grip, Christainity is the most bloodless major religion these days. Even Buddists and Hindus have been mixing it up lately overseas...usually against militant islamic "warriors", who blow up schools. Ask the peaceful beautiful Thai people how comfortable they are these days...

Christianity might chap your ass because it holds people to a higher standard, but it doesn't affect your life in any way. Christians are not hurting you or cutting of your porn supply.

[Jo March]

58. You are looking at it the wrong way

The fundies that you have described have stolen the mantle of Christian. They are not true Christians. So don't bash Christians or Christianity because of people who would twist and pervert the word of Christ.

[Racenut20]

2. Very well said

It has always been my contention that the bunch waaaaaaaaaay out there give Christians a bad name. It bothers me. I feel to be a Christian and alway have, but do not want to be considered a part of the "BushChristians".

[ixion]

3. I bash all organized institutions of religion equally

Not the people in them. The institution itself is flawed, and now used more as a means of social control then to broaden people's spirituality.

The only time I will bash Christians in particular is when the start telling me I'm going to hell because I'm not a Christian. That bothers me about any religion, be it Islam or Judeaism, Satanism and so on.

Not personal. ;-)

[jean]

10. 'a means of social control...' wow, how true is that when you look at

the Christian Conservative movement over the past 25 years? That is their lone goal: control the masses.

[bryant69]

19. It's easy to pick up the Christian Conservative movement

But how representative is Pat Robertson of all the rest of Christianity?

Or to put it another way, why is he representative of Christianity and Martin Luther King Jr. isn't?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[jean]

22. yes - Pat Robertson represents what flavor of Christianity?

[Jo March]

61. None. n/t

[skygazer]

33. The use of religion as a social control

precedes Pat Robertson or any other modern person. It has been a fact for millenia. The acts of the early colonials when they burned witches was a result of the institutionalized nature of their religion. The Inquisition was the same. The Crusades. The everyday people who practice their religion are not the problem so much as the larger machine that is the Christian (or Muslim or whatever) religion.

That doesn't make Christians bad - what it means is that many of us reject the rigid doctrines and the "us versus them" quality of the institution itself. To me, it seems absurd that each sect of what is essentially the same religion feels that their answer is the only correct one, while rejecting the notion that anyone else might have any good ideas on the subject.

I'm not a Christian. I don't "hate" Christians. But I have no use for the strict dogma of organized, institutionalized religion. I think that a person's belief should be based on a broader view, an exploration of all available theories and a decision as to what seems right to them. Not just what their parents raised them to be or what someone told them to beleive.

[Jo March]

62. True Christianity does encourage one to explore possibilities

I and many others are Christians because of what we believe, not because of what we were told to believe or because our parents raised us that way.

Becoming a Christian requires one to accept, in one's heart, Christ as a personal Saviour. It has to be a change in one's heart and soul. You can't just kinda be a Christian or "just be" a Christian because your parents are. It is a life-changing, heart-changing decision.

True Christianity just doesn't work like you are describing. It just doesn't.

[Cheswick2.0]

126. you don't hate christian and you also

don't have any idea what you are talking about. The college theology 101 that gets spouted on this web site never ceases to amaze me.

[Ladyhawk]

75. I only know a few tolerant Christians...almost exclusively on the web.

I call the intolerant ones "fundies."

[Cheswick2.0]

56. just because religion is "organized" doesn't make it bad

I have taken part in the organization of religion being on the board of Elders at my church. Some of the things we have done as an organization that we would not have done otherwise are:
Sending thousands of dollars and tens of people to Haiti to learn about the people and their challenges, build a health clinic, feed kids, support a school and a hospital.
We have sent one woman to Ghana and sponsored Ghanian people to come here. We have a sister relationship with a district of Presbyterian churches there which helps bridge the two cultures and helps promote understanding. It also gives us a chance to know when they are in need and how we can help.
We have brought a family from Afghanistan and helped to support them for two years now. The kids are all growing up healthy and getting very good grades in school.
We contribute to Habitat for Humanity, the Heifer Project and the local food bank.

Damn that organization! ::grr:

Please, the idea that religion is just a way of controlling the masses is a lot of Marxist crap.

[ixion]

112. Actually, the idea of using religion came way before marx

First off, I'm not a Marxist by any stretch.

Secondly, Using the church as a means of social control is over a thousand years old, and has many manifestations. The Crusades, the Inquisition to name just two, but there are many, many more.

The Vatican is the richest institution on the face of the Earth. Are you trying to convince me that they don't use this power to try and spread their own brand of religion? This brand, which just happens to promote social homogeny, commands one not to question, but to simply obey by faith? How is this not a form of social control?

I was raised a catholic, became a 'born again' Christian in High School for a couple years, but eventually I left because I was told that my father, who had not 'taken Jesus into his life' in the manner so designated by this particular group, was going to hell because of that. How is a threat like that not a form of crowd control?

Sorry, it will be difficult to convince me otherwise. And my thesis statement has nothing to do with anything political.

It's about society, and the means to control it.

[Cheswick2.0]

125. bullshit

sorry, but whether you think so or not your opinion is based in Marxist ideology.
Just because you had a bad experience (why in heaven's name would you chose to go to a fundamentalist church if you weren't raised that way? There were other choices.) The ignorance they repeated to you about you father has nothing to do with crowd control. Experiencing that doesn't mean you are any less confused about what Organized religion means.

I notice you completely ignore the points about what organized religion can do which is a benefit to society.

[ixion]

146. right back at ya

I got news for you: the concept was around centuries before marx.

as far as the good that organized religion may do, I believe what little they do that is not corrupt (feed the poor, etc) is far outweighed by the people who have died at their hands for being 'heretics'.

sorry, you won't find any sympathy for organized religion here.

[Jo March]

60. Anyone who tells you that you are going to hell is not a true

Christian either. Simply tell them that only God knows what is in your heart and they need to not judge unless they be judged. If they try to give you any grief, just say politely, "Please read the book of Matthew and get back with me."

No one but God can judge whether or not you will go to hell.

[Carson]

156. And by what standard does God judge?

How do we know how God will judge us? How do we know what is acceptable and unacceptable to God? If one is a Christian, that standard is the Bible. There we are told what God wants from His people; it's the "rule book", for lack of a better term.

That verse you quoted, Matt. 7:1 "Judge not, that ye be not judged," is often misinterpreted to mean no one can judge another person, or point out wrong-doing in a Biblical sense, in another person. The verse is clear that Jesus did not intend to forbid judgements of all kinds, because he said in John 7:24: "Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgement."

Where do righteous judgements come from? From where does a Christian learn of his standard in conduct? The Bible. If someone or some organization is going against that standard, would a Christian be wrong in pointing out the error?

When Jesus said, "Judge not," he forbade unkind, unjustified and improper censure resulting from hasty and superficial investigation, and without regard for the well-being of the person, or persons, criticized.

The verse is not intended to say no one can judge anyone else. Jesus goes on to warn, "For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you." (Matt 7:2)

In other words, what you see another person doing, and judging them for, make sure you are not guilty of the same things.

I apologize for the lengthy post, but I get weary of that particular misuse of scripture. Some people tend to use it that no one can judge another person, and "judge" here means to point out error. This is not the verse to use to make a point of "tolerance".

But, of course, our final judgement belongs to God.

[The Straight Story]

77. Is the same true for any 'organized' ideology/belief/political group?

The dem party is a big tent, so is the christian religion (catholics, fundamentalists, protestants, et al).

Everyone seems to organize based on beliefs - those that share them come together and work for their goals. The dems spread the message, or preach/evangelize, that they have.

I understand your base idea/point. But to me it is a broader social thing than simply religion. "Belief System" is perhaps more appropriate, imho, as it covers a broader spectrum. Some have a 'god' or belief in a life after this one, some do not, they all share a common word 'belief' or perhaps other common words which are similar 'philosophy', 'ideology', 'political system' and so forth.

Humans are creatures which have beliefs - and some may not be logical to others (which is obvious since there are so many ideas/faiths/beliefs out there if you believe in one you think it is right and the others wrong, otherwise you would not believe it currently - and hence you may not see others as being logical within the context of yours).

[ixion]

114. Yes, I believe this is true of all institutions.

I think it's their nature.

Once any group gains too much power, that group becomes an institution, to which any of the members have no direct recourse to redress grievances.

Take any state University. Can I walk into the Regents office and demand that a regent hear what I've got on my mind? Sure I could try, but I'm not going to get very far, and even if I did get in there, there would be zero result.

Academia itself has become such an institution, and has been so for hundreds of years. Just try to introduce an idea outside the realm of 'conventional wisdom' (an oxymoron unto itself) and you'll see this first hand for yourself. If you do not support the status quo, you're told that you're undisciplined, and you're excused from the table.

Religion and Politics are the same types of institutions, in that they are not accessible, for the most part, at the local level. Oh sure, you can go volunter for the DLC, but that's not really access.

[Spider Jerusalem]

108. "Now" used more as a means of social control? Not up on history, I see.

Why do you think the Roman Empire embraced Christianity? Why do you think the medieval Kings were mostly staunch supporters of the Church? Why do you think so many nations have established religions? It's ALWAYS been an instrument of social control. The spiritual acpect is secondary. And is secondary in the purpose of ANY religion, which is first and foremost to codify rules for "appropriate" behaviour within a society, and then to enforce them through threat of divine punishment. With, of course, the reward of everlasting life in a place of perfect harmony if you're a good little robot.

[ixion]

115. so of that sentence you chose the word 'now'

Actually, I am up on history, thank you very much. The word 'now' in this context is figurative, not literal, and could just as well apply to modern homo sapiens sapiens (now in evolutionary terms) as to 'now' in the literal sense.

However, I see your point in that I could have removed 'now' and the sentence would remain true.

[InfoMinister]

4. I Think Most of Us Just Have A Problem With the Falwells and Robertsons

It's the extremists who claim they run the GOP that most people have a problem with. Heck, even the majority of Christians themselves have problems with them.

[Jo March]

71. And too many of them believe Robertson and his cronies

It is so sad. The only thing that comforts me is that Robertson and those guys will have to answer for their hatred.

[K-W]

5. When people use thier christianity as a justification to hate and destroy,

they implicate christianity in the hate and destruction.

Perhaps fairly, perhaps unfairly, but it is they who beg the question, not DU'rs.

But obviously many people cross the line and there is no justification for that.

[Jo March]

63. I have felt a bit of the contempt for Christians on this board

but I try to put it into context. I know that this board has people on it who believe all different types of things. I can't judge what is in anyone's heart when they post something hateful about Christians. What I can do is put forth an image of Christianity that shows the positive side of my religion. If I start spewing hatred back, that makes me like Falwell and Robertson.

I've offered to pray for people on this board and have been met with positive comments of appreciation. I may not know your religion (or lack of! :)) but I know mine and I know my heart. I care for all people, not just people who share my religious beliefs.

It does hurt to read the negative comments but I can understand and maybe one day I can change the perception of the writer.

[jean]

6. one poster said he calls these people 'christians' with a small c.

There are many flavors of not just christianity in the world, but all other religions, as well.

I wonder if it would be helpful to somehow frame or define what and who the Christian Conservatives are, separate and apart from actual established religions.

The Christian Conservatives have insinuated themselves into main stream christianity and stained it in the process (oops! that sounds a lot like the Taliban and what they've done to Islam!).

Let's separate the wheat from the chaff.

[Patriot69]

85. YOU MIGHT BE THE DEVIL IF...........................

Wow, there seems to be quite a wide range of opinion on the topics of religion and politics here.
It's inevitable that the discussion of politics would lead to religion, as one can't exist without the other.
Religion is an expression of beliefs, and politics, is just another arena in which to express them.

After reading several of the posts, I think this one asks a reasonable question.

First of all, let me say that I agree with most of what has been posted to date.
Secondly, I think a lot of people get hung up on the term "religion".
It's more important to hold "Faith", than it is to be identified by a religious label.

How do you tell the "Faithful" from the "Whacko Nutjobs"?

DEEDS.
Look not at what they're saying, but at what they're doing.

This will apply to each and every organized religion that exists.
Virtually every religion believes in God, or "a god", or a "Creator", etc., so it would then seem logical that there would be a perceived enemy of that God.
Let me use Christianity as an example, as I follow that "Faith".

Christians see Satan as the opposing force to all that is good.
True Christians follow God, and believe in a peaceful existence.
(as do many faiths)
Where Satan "hijacks" Christianity is where the RW extremists label themselves as "The Christian Coalition", or "Fundamentalists", "Abortion Clinic Bombers" etc.
Their goals are not in the interests of anyone but themselves.

What better name to use for evil, than one that stands for goodness.
The side benefit is a huge "perceived" number of followers (endorsers)that may, or may not ever catch on.
Those that do, are quickly labeled Anti-Semitic, or Anti-Christian, or even "Terrorists".

If one were selling bottled poison, you wouldn't really expect to successfully advertise with the "Skull and Bones" would you?
More than likely, it would be marketed under a "sell-able" label.
(Republican Conservatism" comes to mind)

The same could be said of the Muslim faith, and the factions we refer to as "terrorists", or "religious terrorists".

Neo-Cons use this label from the "bottom up" when using the term "Christian, or Jewish", and from the "Top down" when referring to any group they wish to defeat. (all Christians and Jews are good, and all Muslims are evil, they want us to believe)
(Neo-Cons are primarily "Bent" Christians and Jews on a Hell-bound journey to the "Promised Land" using WHATEVER means possible to get there first)
If it means using US Armed Forces BLOOD, and US fiat-dollars under the guise of the "Judeo-Christian Brotherhood", or "Patriotism", then that's what they'll use.
If it means "steamrollering" through the Middle East to clear Israel's front yard of pesky opposition, and it garners Halliburton some Iraqi oil fields in the process, then that's what they'll do. AS LONG AS WE SIT BACK AND LET THEM.
As long as they keep selling the "poison" of "divide and conquer" rhetoric-ridden politics, and as long as we keep buying it, we're only hurting ourselves.
In the end, all that appears good will be bad, and all that is bad will appear good.

Judaism is no more immune from such afflictions than any other faith.

We see it in America more so, because it affect our lives on a daily basis.
Where true Jewish Faith leaves off, Satan picks up with such wickedness as The Federal Reserve, International Banking, IAPAC, ADF, etc. Promoting narrow, "exclusive" agendas, that have, in effect, put us right at the thresh hold of WW-III. Satan's objective.

To further the deception, we have false partnerships on the international level making "devastating adjustments" to our planet in order to accomplish that objective.

Where does that leave "good" Muslim's, Jews, and Christians?

Standing at the voting booth, thinking that somehow, just maybe, there will be a "political" shift that will avert the impending disaster.

It's time to stop focusing on our differences, and calling it "diversity", and start building on our collective "Faith", and call it "commonality".


JMHO

[meow2u3]

96. I call the intolerant, hypocritical fundies

Christianists, the same way Islamic extremists are sometimes known as Islamists.

They both pervert their respective religions to try to get absolute control over the people.

[wryter2000]

8. I agree

I'm not a believer, but I was raised in a wonderful Christian church (I won't mention the demonination because I don't think wonderfulness is limited to my former church). Certainly, bad things are done in the name of religion, and in this country, they're usually done in the name of Christianity. But huge amounts of good work are done in God's name, too.

I hope there's an easy way to distinguish between people who honestly follow Jesus' teachings (to the extent you can do that...talk about hard work!) and people who want to cram the Old Testament down our throats. I tend to use the term "xtian" for the second group, but that's ambiguous and doesn't work very well.

In any case, this is one agnostic who's in your corner, and I imagine there are lots of others, too.

[Jo March]

64. People who carry plastic crosses :) or

people who have only read the Cliff's Notes version of the Bible... :) Yes, there is a bit of a difference.

The Old Testament cannot be discounted but Christ brought a new set of laws and none of them mention hatred of any group. He preached peace and love and tolerance.

[SoCalDem]

11. Right wingers have "stolen" Christianity, just as they have "stolen"

the flag...and family values.. and just about any other good thing you can imagine..

They are like the body snatchers.. They envelope their target, and pretend to BE it..

The radical terrorists have "stolen" Islam too, so they DO realy undertand each other.. They are the SAME..

When people make comments about Christianity, I doubt that they are really taking issue with the ordianry folks who attend church once a week, send money to their church, hewlp with the pot-luck suppers or cholthing drives..

They are taking issue with the WACKO fundamentalists who insist on killing doctors, blowing up Planned parenthood clinics, follow cnadidates for office(with the sole intention of disrupting their events), sending unsolicited literature to every address they can get their bible-worn hands on, and generally, "overly-engaged" in politics ..

[K-W]

13. That just isnt rational

The fact of the matter is the christian religion plays a very large part in the right wing. It is wrong to overstate it, it is also wrong to pretend it isnt true.

[Patriot69]

97. Here's a rational thought

Christianity, like so many other religions, has started to go awry, begining at the highest, most visable point.
(Those that use the name of Christianity to promote their evil)
Those that have taken it upon themselves to re-define the faith, and mold it into their own twisted self-promoting agenda.

These are not true "Christian" men. They simply aren't.
No more representive of the teachings of Jesus than the Taliban is representive of Islam.

I would suggest everyone quit hanging from their tails, and start looking at the world "right side up" again.
Start at the bottom of every religion, not the top, and go from there.
Once you understand the basics, you can begin to see the point where they all start to stray, and from there on up, you can start to separate the wheat from the chaff.

[jean]

21. flag pins and those fish on cars - seem like fads, but actually

take control of both of those symbols: patriotism and being christian.

They play to the need people have to feel like they 'belong' to the right group.

I see more meaning and value in patriotic and christian acts than in every lapel and car being stamped with these symbols.

It always make me wonder what's next - will we have to tattoo ourselves to prove we belong?

[immoderate]

92. Religion favors tradition

and abhors progress and innovation. Religion favors authority over autonomy. That's the nature of the beast. It's aligned with conservative thought.

--IMM

[SoCalDem]

141. I was once castigated by a priest when I asked a simple question.

Forgot what it was, but his answer.. "Shut-UP , you impudent little girl. God tells us that, and THAT'S why we do it"..

(No , Bill O'Reilly was not a priest back then)..

That pretty much told me all I needed to know...when I was 12..

[napi21]

14. Far too many people claim the title Christian, but behave differently!

Please don't misinterpret people picking on the radicals and assume they are against all Christians! That's certainly not true.''I hate to say this, but The radical Christians are no batter than the radical muslims. Both seem willing to do anything to promote their cause.

[faithnotgreed]

15. it is quite sad i know

i love Jesus and believe in the bible. but i cannot for anything relate to people who consider bush a Christian. but at the same time, i try not to judge because its really not my place. its a hard one though, because bush goes against everything i was taught about being a Christian.

i give it all up to God though. its the only way it makes sense for me. but thats not everyones background or belief and i respect that.

i am enthusiastic about john kerry and think he is a man of real honor. now, he is someone who has really walked the walk and i am proud to vote for him. and this is not about his catholicism, it is about the man and his actions and words.

and absolutely we should love all people no matter their faith or affiliation and never judge anyone esp when we dont have the facts.

i respect all cultures and am glad to be here among so many who are seeking truth and and democracy for all!

[Jo March]

65. faithnotgreed, do you have people look at you in surprize

when you tell them that you are voting for Kerry? I know people who can't believe that I am a Christian and I'm not voting for Bush, who is a "Christian" man! I simply say, "By his deeds shall ye know him." Then I say that Jesus would never declare a war on innocents.

[faithnotgreed]

95. im with you

to tell the truth, the church im affiliated with would most definitely not be looking at me with surprise - they are right there with me on getting bush out. but then i live in washington dc!

i am beyond thankful not to live in republican area. i did live in nc and just couldnt stay, even though my mom is there (she thinks bush is a Christian. i only know this because i had to ask her, so she said she saw an interview with him and thats where she gets that from. she is a depressed person and doesnt want to see the news or know about the real stuff that goes on and she never has.)

i have tremendous admiration for those who truly try to live Gods word esp when they live in a jerry falwell-like area. they dont call it sheeple for nothing. its easy for humans to fall in the line they see around them, esp when there is overt pressure to conform as there has been throughout time, no matter who or what the source.

again, i just try to give it to God because its not my right to judge anyone (even when i think its obvious!)

[Walt Starr]

16. I don't hear any Christians slamming their brethren who desire a theocracy

just like I don't hear any Muslims slamming their brethren who kill in the name of Islam.

Of course, the REASON I don't hear either is because the corporate media deems it as "not newsworthy" and so they never report it, thus it never happens.

If a Lutheran minister slams Pat Robem$ome and CNN doesn't report is, did it really happen?

I think you might get the drift now. Christians get slammed for the same reasons that Muslims get slammed. Nobody realizes that mainstream Christians are disgusted with the radical fundamentalists just like nobody realizes the mainstream Muslims are disgusted with their radical fundamentalists.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. When it happens, it gets a two-inch article on page B23

although Sojourners (a politically liberal, theologically evangelical group) took out a full-page ad in the Republican convention supplement to the New York Times, saying that Bush did not measure up to Jesus' teachings.

By the way, I can't remember where I read it, but within the last month or so, but leaders in Islamic countries around the world have indeed condemned radical Islamic terrorism, but since there is no centralized authority like the pope in Islam and since there are dozens of Islamic countries, none of these pronouncements make an international splash.

[Kanary]

86. Way to go, Sojourners!!

Jim Wallis, :yourock:


On second thought, I guess I'm not surprised, as Wallis is a mover and shaker-upper. But, I wasn't expecting to see that , and it makes my whole evening.

That is one man who never wavers from taking seriously the Bible's commands to take care of those on the bottom rung of society. I admire him.

Kanary

[Cha]

81. The head of the Methodist Church did

Not think bush should have invaded Iraq..the media did not make much of that so I'm wondering if it really happened.:(

[booksenkatz]

18. Demand your religion back

The Xians have stolen it. Don't sit back and let them define what your religion is in the eyes of the rest of the world; fight for it and reclaim it and kick their butts to the curb! Go let them form their own religion.

[Patriot69]

90. Their own religion

<QUOTE "Go let them form their own religion" QUOTE>

They already have.

In fact, they have had for centuries.
From around the begining of the 18TH century, if I recall correctly.

It can't be said aloud, or even printed here, but if you were to do your homework, you could find it.

Every one of our Founding Fathers was a member.
Every face on Mt. Rushmore was a member.
Both Houses of Congress have several members.
Every major university graduates several members annually.
Every Industrialized Nation has several members.
Both George H., and G Dub'ya are members.

(here's a hint to get you pointed in the righ direction.)

Around the middle of his term in office, George H. Bush gave a very moving national address wherein he spoke of "The New world Order" and the coming together of Nations and........."A Thousand Points of Light."

[UdoKier]

20. Could it be because "Christians" are constantly railing against...

"secular humanists" and "atheists" as though we are the spawn of Satan?

There is a church on every other corner of every town in this country.

There is hardly anything to represent the beliefs of agnostics in this country. Those of us who are not Christians are CONSTANTLY being forced by society to bow our heads to say grace, or say "under God" or any number of other gestures that we don't believe in.

When has any Christian EVER been forced by the dominant society to renounce HIS/HER faith in God? And yet we are expected to feign such faith all the time.

So forgive us agnostics here for using the one place where we can vent a bit about the overbearing people we ALL have to deal with called "Christians".

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. Ah, but have you ever been put down for your agnosticism

on DU? By someone who wasn't a freeper disruptor?

[UdoKier]

31. All Im saying is the dominant society coddles, humors and fears Christians

You can go almost ANYWHERE in this country and have your religious views appreciated and echoes. Such is not the case for agnostics. Give us a break.

And no, I wasn't accusing DUer Christians of that. But they sure do pop up and gripe about being "persecuted" a lot.

[Ladyhawk]

80. True. I like it here for that reason.

I get nothing but contempt in the "real world," but I'm not castigated here for my lack of religion.

Check out this site. It's an eye-opener: Life in Our Anti-Christian America.

[Kazak]

101. "There is hardly anything to represent the beliefs of agnostics..."

Ever hear of Unitarian Univeralism? Check it!

[PassingFair]

102. Even they...

are turning to requiring a belief in supernatural now. Horrible.

[Kazak]

103. Say it ain't so...

Though, I seriously doubt "belief in supernatural" (!!!) will ever be a 'requirement' of UUism.

[PassingFair]

120. Read it and WEEP

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/3398-_A_Heated_Debate_Flares_in_Unitarian_Universalism.html

And this article is OLD, the "reverence" movement has gained momemtum since this article.

"language of reverence"

I repeat, horrible.

[Kazak]

155. Yeah right...meanwhile business as usual in the actual churches,...

several of which I attend periodically, and one of which I am very active in.

BTW, I remember when Rev. Sinkford started this initiative...many of us where kind of like, wha?!?, but honestly I think most organizations simply shruged and carryed on as usual, and I really don't see this going anywhere.

[ixion]

116. well said, UdoKier

and spot on.

[Cheswick2.0]

127. you have NEVER been forced to say Grace or "under God"

unless it was by your parents.

[bigendian]

23. It's just easy.

It is like the term "evildoers" or "terrorist".
Say the word and a mind will wrap it in it's own preconception.
What do you see when I say the word "chair"? What is it made of? Is it upholstered or plain? Does it rock?
It is still a chair.
Like I said, it is just easy to use your preconcieved notion of what something or someone is than to seek a true picture of what or whom is being talked about.
The mis-administration in the white house does it all the time.

[saracat]

24. I wish this country was as intelligent as Europe. Of course they have

several more centuries to work things out. Religion is a non issue to them. Over 80% of Europeans don't go to Church at all. Only 20% state that they believe in any religion. I was raised as a Christian, and I won't say what denomination, except that it was mainstream, and I gave it up. I consider it an addiction that prevents you fron dealing with your own realities. I also gave up smoking, which was an addiction that prevented me from doing certain things. I viewed both addictions as bad for me.
That being said, I have no problem being with my smoker friends and little problem with my Christian ones. But the Christians are more likely to ask me to join in their addiction than the smokers!
I will defend the right of either group to practice their preference. This should be a free country.But I also will defend the right of those that disagree. That is democracy!

[fknobbit]

28. Ironic

That the American religious rights forefathers fled the old country's so they might escape the same religious persecution the right is now fighting to restore.

[saracat]

29. OOOH! Good one.

I am going to steal your post!

[fknobbit]

55. Feel free

I believe that Falwell, Robertson, Swaggert et al, when placed in the position of control that they seek, will make the Talaban look sane in comparison. These Guys, and followers, are a hell of a lot more dangerous than W because without them he would simply be amusing, and certainly not President.

[FlemingsGhost]

25. Why do some Christians feel the need to put people down?

Same answer applies.

[havocmom]

30. Only ones I have a problem with are the ones who want everybody

following their particular path. No problem otherwise. Same with any other religion.

[Kanary]

32. You may also have noticed disrespect towards women, poor folk, and anyone

else who's handy.

Yes, it's very discouraging that this is the state of the Democratic mind today, but there you have it. There is a LOT of verbal violence here, and it is certainly counter-productive, to say the least.

So, tell ya what...... here's the deal I'll make with ya...... you help me to counter the garbage that some "Feel the need" to throw out towards women and poor folk, and I'll help you to counter put downs toward Christians.

Do we have a deal?

:hi:

Kanary

[Disturbed]

34. Millions of Liberals who are also Christians.

The just don't get the press that Right Wing so-called Christians do.

Jimmy Carter wrote an excellent article about this.

[Kanary]

35. ??? And, that relates to what I said....... how???

[Jo March]

66. I agree, Kanary and you and I have PM'd about the "verbal

violence." I try to keep it positive and not kick anyone around. I don't believe in piling on or insulting someone who's opinion is different from mine.

Having said that, it is very hard to read the anti-Christian comments and not say something sometimes. It's hard not to come back with a negative comment and thus keep the whole thing going but I can't do that.

For the record, I have never bashed anyone who doesn't believe in God. I don't tell anyone that they are going to hell. I don't judge those who don't believe as I do. That is not my place and I would not like it one bit if someone did that stuff to me.

I truly believe that the DU tent is large enough for all of us. Once in a while we bump into each other but we are still on the same side.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

36. people criticize everything on Du

there are just more christians so i think it comes up more often. as does this sort of post....

[progressivebydesign]

37. We don't criticize normal Christians...

I'm tiring of this same rant on DU. If you read what the threads are about, it's about people like Christian Coalition Christians that advocate violence against "non-believers", we complain about hypocrites that wrap themselves in Jesus every chance they get, while doing exactly opposite of what Jesus taught, we complain about "believers' who treat "non-believers" as scum, we complain against people in ANY religion to think THEIR God is the only one and needs to be shoved into our public schools, our Congress, and our White House.

Many people consider themselves Christians, but the born-agains have hijacked the term.. and use it to be divisive. THAT is the problem. People who behave in Christian manner.. aren't a problem. The nicest, most Christian people I know don't go to church or spout their religion.

[The Straight Story]

83. A decent qualifier

Which could/should be used more often.

I think the rants you hear are understandable though, if I were to start spouting off about blacks without qualifying that as meaning Keyes and his crew, people would be rather upset. And yes, while he did not choose his race, it still follows the idea that using a wide group label when attacking a sub group of that label can be seen by those not understanding your context that you are seeing the entire group in that manner.

Being a christian I can see why some might get defensive when it seems like someone is calling them stupid or power mongers, etc and et al, even when the intent by the author is to discuss a single or person or sub group the author uses the broader label.

Personally such attacks do not bother me, but once in awhile I feel the need to defend my belief or better explain it to someone who seems to have a bias against the whole of it because of the actions of a few who claim to hold it.

The same is true to some degree of the born-again people. I know several and would count myself there at one moment in time (I hardly live up to the ideal personally so I don't claim to be something I am not). I do know one guy who is, calls himself, born again. He has serious mental problems, lives homeless, and can turn violent on a whim - but is otherwise a decent fellow. He is my brother-in-laws brother and he lives under the train trussel near my house. His mom moved and they did not tell him where, so he had to leave the house.

He is a nut case, but I would not say 'born-again' folks are nutcases and use him as an example as it would not be accurate or fair and would only take into account my exposure, and as a progressive I realize that my limited exposure does not make a broader group equal to what I have seen firsthand - if I want to know I will examine their beliefs and not their actions as people often cannot live up to the beliefs they hold...

At any rate, sorry for the long right and I think you made a good post.

[immoderate]

38. Criticize the opiate of the masses? Heaven forfend

We wouldn't want to give self righteousness a bad name.

--IMM

[Cheswick2.0]

128. Ah, more Marxist crap

opium is the opiate of the masses.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

151. No, actually it's professional sports

:-)

or possibly reality TV.

[kodi]

39. criticism of alleged christians for unchrist-like behavior is valid

.

[Cheswick2.0]

131. sure just as soon as you become perfectly Christ-like

it is hypocrisy to criticize people for things you do yourself.

[kodi]

143. unlike the alleged christians i dont claim to have jesus on my side.

and if many so called christian are actually living his words, he deserved what he got.

[RebelYell]

40. My neighbor put up this lawn sign the other day

"Catholics Against Kerry"

Our founding fathers knew that mixing politics and religion is a recipe for disaster and warned against doing so for very good reasons.

[AngryOldDem]

144. I seriously question their Catholicism

...on most points of social teaching.

This cuts both ways, and I am increasingly angered at how some people, in their haste to make this a one-issue election, fail to see just how much of a failure this president has been on environmental issues, social issues, and justice issues -- all the things that should matter to self-professed "good Catholics."

They put abortion front and center, while qualifying the death penalty by saying that in some cases it is "justified," which is in effect saying that one life is worth more than another, when in fact the Church teaches that ALL life is sacred from cradle to grave. That sacredness is not contingent upon how that life is lived; we do not have a "goodness guarantee" that runs out one month or one year after our births. The Church recognizes that there are better ways to keep civilized society safe from dangerous criminals rather than executing them. A point largely ignored by most "pro-lifers" I talk to.

The war is another issue. This conflict fails miserably to meet the Just War standard. And those who quote the Pope and respect his authority on any other issue keep insisting on how wrong-headed he is on this -- they say it is up to each nation to decide how best to defend itself. Again, these people conveniently ignore Church teaching.

Finally, as to abortion, they have on the biggest blinders of all. Show me where and how a president can affect the abortion question, or put an end to abortion. The only thing he can do is appoint judges who may or may not follow his ideological bent. And lately, just because a conservative president appoints a judge, that is no guarantee the judge will himself be conservative -- most likely, he will be the opposite.

It will take much more than the stroke of a pen to make abortion a thing of the past in this country, which it never will be. As Catholics, we need to see how society meets the grade on other tenets of social teaching, and work on those areas where it's falling short. It would be a much more fruitful effort rather than stubbornly focusing on one issue that will never be resolved by fiat. If people have no jobs, nothing to eat, nowhere to live, and no hope for their future, that does not bode well for future generations.

As a Catholic, I believe abortion should remain legal because there will always be a medical need for it. It is not for me, as an individual, to judge the circumstances of another. I also believe that you cannot legislate one group's morality on a majority who does not hold the same view. Thomas Aquinas held a very similar opinion about trying to enforce an unpopular law -- it won't work. Instead of trying to make abortion a thing of the past, I think Catholics would do well to try to mitigate those circumstances in society that make abortion seem to be the only alternative for some women. There is a lot to be said for making abortion safe, legal, and rare.

This election is about more than abortion. I wish Catholics would wake up to that and look at ALL facets of the faith. Rant over.

[camero]

41. Another "persecution" thread?

Sorry, persecution is when you're eating out of a dumpster for your beliefs. Not because someone criticized your sect.

[UrbScotty]

49. I'm not intending for this to be a persecution thread.

If you think it is, why?

[camero]

51. Your thread title

and the admonishment of DUers not to infringe on another's beliefs. That's a vague comment. If I admonish a Christian for doing something not in line with Jesus' teachings, does that mean I'm "putting them down", or am I merely pointing out a hypocracy?

[noiretextatique]

42. diversity of opinion is also a great thing

that means accepting that some people will criticize chrisitans and christianity, perhaps unfairly, just as come unfairly criticize islam and muslims.
and frankly...some of the more vocal and hateful rw religionists deserve plenty of condemnation...in america, they tend to call themselves christians.
what i don't understand is how any criticism infringes on your ability to believe as you choose to believe.

[Cats Against Frist]

43. For me, it depends on what kind of Christian it is, I suppose

first of all FEW Christians live anything like the Bible suggests -- crazy fundies or liberal evangelicals.

Second, anyone who suggests they KNOW the origins of human kind, and believes that some souls will be assigned to a literal heaven or hell, DO get my scorn, because I see mystical religion as one of THE MOST LIMITING CONSTRUCTS KNOWN TO HUMANKIND.

That said, the transformational message of Jesus Christ is extraordinarily powerful -- if you believe he said those things, which, according to a group of top Biblical scholars, is debatable.

When taken symbolically, the Biblical message is not so unlike many other forms of religion -- a powerful philosophical lesson in the transformational possibilities of the subjective, first-person phenomenological elements of the human mind to recognize and strive for constructs that, in essence, make reductive the existence of the subject, itself, in comparison to "humankind," as a whole. Which, I think, would run in direct opposition to instinctual mammalian traits -- fight or flight -- making, of course, for a fascinating dichotomy. I think this is the actual reason why religion has been with us for so long, and will continue to be with us, so long as there are humans.

Of course, I could be making a lot of this bullshit up. This is just my opinion.

At any rate, I believe that people should believe whatever they want, in a free society, and I should be free to think that people who purport to "know" there is a God are crazy. So long as I don't harrass them, harm their property or body, or otherwise stand in between them and the free exercise of their religion -- I'm sound as a pound, and reserve my right to think whatever I want.

Again, that said, those who seek to subvert the laws of the United States, to a particular protestant interpretation of Biblical Law should be introduced to "the big orange alumninum baseball bat of modernity," at the earliest convenience.

[Dookus]

44. again

the poor, persecuted Christians.... who have a church on every corner, claim upwards of 80% of Americans as members, and control over 90% of the elected seats in the country. They get their God on the money, in the pledge, in congress....

Poor poor christians....

[Jo March]

68. Dookus, I don't have a church on every corner

I am just little old Arnheim and my feelings get a bit hurt at the negativity that is directed towards me because I am a Christian. I am not wallowing in self-pity or claiming some type of special exemption from criticism. I just believe that there a lot of negativity on this board at times against Christians. I know that it stems from those who have hijacked the religion for their own gain. So, most of the time I disregard it. After all, does one post reflect the entire beliefs of the poster? Of course not!

It is just hard sometimes. I see what the right wing has done to my religion. I've seen what large churches have done to other religions. I see it and it is so far from what Christ teaches that it breaks my heart.

Again, I am not asking for sympathy or special treatment. I am just reminding everyone that DU is large enough for everyone and that Christianity is not what the right portrays.

[Dookus]

69. try being

an outspoken atheist for awhile. See what "negativity" you encounter.

Sorry, I don't feel sorry for the religion that dominates our society because SOME people don't like it.

[not systems]

78. I agree.

Try not being Christian for a while and then report back how
friendly our society is and how much they respect your beliefs.

In my life long experience the answer is not at all.

If your not Christian keep it hidden or face a whole range of "Christian" behaviors.

I agree with Dookus.

[Ladyhawk]

84. Dookus, you are SOOOO right.

I never experienced negativity like I did when I finally came out as an atheist. My mother decided I was demon-possessed. Random people calling themselves "christians" try to proselytize me, or tell me all that's wrong with me. Some strange fundy in the park laid hands on me without my permission...

I could go on and on and on and on. It's not been fun, but I felt I had to come out to make it easier for others to speak what's on their mind. As a result, I've lost closeness with family. I've lost all my so-called "christian" friends.

Read this. It's an eye-opener: Life in Our Anti-Christian America.

[noiretextatique]

124. ans it's not just atheists...i study religious science

and some self-professed christians tell me it's a cult or satan worship :eyes: i've been told i need to repent, etc...several times.
and then of course, many just assume i hare their beliefs, as if it's only natural that i should. it can be very annoying...especially when i visit relatives in texas.

[mhr]

82. Would That All Christians Follow Christ's Words In The New Testament

Then you would not see the backlash you see here.

Personally, I am very, very, very afraid of the turmoil wrought by the fundamentalist Christians found in the US.

I am preparing myself for the day that I have to defend myself against an onslaught of Christians spearheading a GOP, Karl Rove, Rush Limbaugh, and Pat Robertson inspired revolution.

You may think I am kidding. I am not.

That is how much these people frighten me. Regrettably, for them, I will not go down without a fight. If that means someone you know or someone I know takes up the arms for a revolution advocating a US Christian theocracy, I will not hesitate to defend myself.

This is one reason that you see such strident comments about Christianity here. If you don't like it, I suggest that you work to reform US Christianity before it blows up in your face.

[Patriot69]

93. You lost me completely............

Hmmmmm.........I don't think there's one on every corner, and as far as claiming 80% of the population, that figure would depend on who told you that, AND what they were promoting.

90% of the elected seats in the country?
90% of the elected seats in this country are held by self-serving hypocritical asses from any number of religious groups, who claim alignment with whatever the "Flavor of the Month" is.

[Cheswick2.0]

133. did the poster say anything about the general population?

The OP was talking about here at DU.

[VOX]

45. There exists a certain brand of fundamentalist Christianity...

that deserves to be publicly exposed and subjected to scrutiny, because it threatens our very existence: the highly politically minded, right wing, end-times driven, gay-and-minority hating, women's-rights denying, war-loving, so-called Christians.

The ones who, although they profess to believe in Jesus, know virtually nothing of his basic teachings: blessed are the peacemakers; let he who is without sin; judge not; don't pray in public; the wrong of storing up earthly wealth; being not anxious for the morrow; love one another; love your enemy.

I myself was baptized and raised a Christian, but I have nothing in common with those who, in the name of something beautiful, healing and unifying, would rather use their religion as a weapon to divide, inflict pain, and spread a cancerous message of hate.

[senseandsensibility]

46. Putting down Christians is one thing

Putting down Christianity is another. Christianity is a beautiful religion,and as a somewhat lapsed Christian, I admire it greatly. Christians are merely people, flawed as all people are, who should be criticized if they deserve it. Unfortunately, many do, especially in the area of hypocrisy.

[Zinfandel]

47. Fundamentalist Christian are whom I despise!! In their fucked up world

there is no room for tolerance. ONLY their version of the bible is acceptable. They will criticize, chastise and ostracize every fucking person that doesn't agree 100% with them.

These Christians don't believe Catholics are Christians nor Methodist, etc...they hate other religions, Jews included...these Christians (mostly southern Baptist but they are also everywhere in this country, like rats)....

They are sexist, homophobic, racist, intolerant and greedy liars!

Shit, they sound just like the republican party...No wonder why these "Christians" are all republicans!!!

Being born & raised as an Italian Catholic in San Francisco---I now feel all Christians (and every pray to some image, religions) are ALL fools anyway!

[shawn703]

98. I'm a fundamentalist Southern Baptist Christian

and I am surprised that this stereotypical thinking is coming from a fellow liberal.

What is our version of the Bible? We have people using the KJV, RSV, ASV, HCSB, NASB.

There aren't many people that agree 100% with each other even within a small Southern Baptist church like the one I attend. If we all criticized, chastised and ostracized everyone that didn't agree with us 100%, there wouldn't be any churches.

The only requirement for being a Christian is to believe Jesus is the Christ. Other denominations other than Southern Baptists believe this and are accepted as part of the Christian household. We definitely don't hate the Jews since we believe they are still God's chosen people.

As far as all of us being sexist, homophobic, racist, intolerant and greedy - I was married to my wife (who is African-American) in a Southern Baptist church. We have two children (with a third on the way) who are of course of mixed race, and all of us have been treated with nothing but love from our fellow churchgoers.

Nor am I a Republican.

It is too easy to look at a few fundamentalist Christians you don't like and assume that all of us are like that. That's like us saying Stalin is representative of all atheists.

[Cheswick2.0]

136. Hi Shawn

I am not a fundamentalist. I am liberal both politicallty and theologically. I welcome you to DU!

You should have been here a few years ago when people were afraid to even admit they attended church.
You are in good company, AL Gore, Bill Clinton etc....

[saracat]

148. Why is religion even a topic?

Why should anyone know or care what anyone is? When I was growing up, we knew who members of our church were but it wasn't a big deal. It was sort of like what country club you belonged to. You might have a general idea that someone was a generic Protestant. We didn't have the wackos ,then just the estabished Protestants, or Catholic. You might be a bit more certain about the Jews, but no one cared. Why is this a big deal now? I think the fudies have made it one by announcing themselves and making it an issue. I am sick of it .I donn't want to know your religion. I am interested in people for their own sake and if your religion makes up that much of your personality, then you don't exist. Sorry, but I am really sick of this. These people seriously need to get a life.

[stavka]

48. Maybe some people feel threatened by them. (nt)

Some do some pretty scary things in the name of their take on the religion.

[Barney Rocks]

50. here is what I was recently told

(on another board) a person explained to me how they felt about this--and I kind of understand now. This is a person who is somewhat to the left of me--I consider myself to be a moderate in most of my views.

I was told that this person only dislikes Christians who believe that their religion is the best and that Christians are OK as long as they realize that their religion is not superior (and indeed is likely inferior) to other religions.

I can happily live with this. I personally do not feel that Christianity is "superior" and I feel no need to look down on others (Muslim, Jew etc) as having an inferior religion. I think Christians get into arguments because they think they have some kind of superior knowledge or relationship with god.

[bobaloo2]

53. Try this...

If you don't understand why people feel that way, spend a month telling everyone you meet that you're a gay Wiccan.

Report back at the end of the month.

(Sorry Barney, meant to reply to the main thread, not you)

[Barney Rocks]

54. no sweat--

I think we are on the same page anyway.

[Jo March]

70. "Love thy neighbor as thyself"

Maybe we should have Robertson and all of his ilk write that on the board about a trillion times until they get it through their thick skulls!

"...and the greatest of these is love."

[Dob Bole]

52. On the 'religion used as social control' argument...

Yes religion can, and has been used as a means of social control. We have seen Bush do this. But that doesn't mean that there aren't Christians with free minds, who make their own decisions and ignore media spin.

That, I think is a difference between Christians on DU and the ones that you might see on TV. Similarly, Al Qaeda uses Islam as a means of social control, but that doesn't mean that there aren't freethinking Muslims.

I myself am a born again Christian, and didn't grow up in a Christian household. I was at one time an atheist, and made the change to Christianity of my own free will. Other people who share this experience include Jimmy Carter, Al Gore, and Jane Fonda.

Religious belief doesn't make a person a zombie. But zombies will rally behind religious language.

[noiretextatique]

57. this reminds me of a recent experience

friend: my cousin is finally "doing the right thing" before god and marrying her child's father.
me: are you going to do the right thing before god, and marry your child's father?
friend: i did that...and it didn't work. but a woman should marry the father of her children.
me: well...what about you? shouldn't you try again...since this is what women should do, according to god?
friend: i know it's not right...i know i am supposed to submit to my husband, but it just didn't work out for us.
me: what happens if it doesn't work out for your cousin?
friend: it won't work if she doesn't submit to her husband...that's what the bible says.
me: it that why your marriage didn't work...because you didn't submit?
friend: all i know is what the bible says...

i too came to enbrace my spiritual self and practice later in life. i can't condemn my friend's way of thinking...but i do hear and see her confusion. she's trying so hard to embrace beliefs that she knows don't work for her, yet she still expects others to live up to the beliefs that she can't. i invited her to come to church with me...a place where her heart and head and the reality of her life can coexist.

something in your post reminded me of this story...not sure why.
but i agree with you wholeheartedly...many people of faith are also thinkers :D

[ixion]

117. spiritual beliefs do not make people zombies.

your conversion (as the others you mentioned) were based on your own decisions after having looked at all the possibilities. I see nothing wrong with that at all. That's a vision quest, a spiritual journey.

The social control aspect of religion exists only in the institution (e.g. the Vatican).

Spirituality is a beautiful thing, and one of the best and brightest sides of humanity. This, by my thinking, is what you are talking about, not the institution of religion itself.

Just my opinion.

[Jo March]

59. Amen - I agree

As a follower of Christ, I acknowledge that I have flaws and that I am not, nor will I ever be, perfect. I try my hardest not to group people together. I really do. I see it happen in politics quite a bit.

But if someone spews hatred, then they are NOT Christians! Jesus said that one of the two greatest commandments was to love your neighbor as themselves. So, if you hear anyone spewing the kind of hatred that Falwell, Robertson, etc. do, then you know that they are breaking one of the greatest commandments of all.

Christianity is all about love and forgiveness, not hatred and intolerance.

[immoderate]

67. There is an implied arrogance

in Christians using that word as a synonym for a good person. Christians use syntax that substitutes Christian for virtuous, as though no one understood morality until Christians came along.

This in spite of the fact that the history of Christianity is a history of violence, torture, slavery, and superstitious ignorance. They gave us the Crusades, Inquisition, Dark Ages, persecution and genocide of minorities and other conquered peoples, and still profess a moral superiority. That's a start.

--IMM

[Jo March]

72. I believe that a person can be moral and good regardless

of their religion. Some Christians don't and I don't understand that. It's the height of ignorance.

[Cheswick2.0]

139. what you don't know about religion

and Christianity in general could fill a week on the history channel.

[mhr]

74. Would That All Christians Follow Christ's Words In The New Testament

Then you would not see the backlash you see here.

Personally, I am very, very, very afraid of the turmoil wrought by the fundamentalist Christians found in the US.

I am preparing myself for the day that I have to defend myself against an onslaught of Christians spearheading a GOP, Karl Rove, Rush Limbaugh, and Pat Robertson inspired revolution.

You may think I am kidding. I am not.

That is how much these people frighten me. Regrettably, for them, I will not go down without a fight. If that means someone you know or someone I know takes up the arms for a revolution advocating a US Christian theocracy, I will not hesitate to defend myself.

This is one reason that you see such strident comments about Christianity here. If you don't like it, I suggest that you work to reform US Christianity before it blows up in your face.

[jackieforthedems]

76. I Agree With You

and I am a Catholic Christian.

[ThePhilosopher04]

79. Difference between Christians and SELF-RHITEOUS, IN-NAME ONLY CHRISTIANS!!

nm

[RobinA]

87. Well For Starters

It bugs the CRAP out of this atheist that so-called Christians have stolen the word Christian. Where did all this "accept Jesus as your personal savior," "accept Jesus into your life" stuff come from as a prerequisite for Christianhood? I was raised in a branch of the Christian church that doesn't go in for all that born again, accepting jesus into your life, hoo-ha. Never once did I hear about any of that stuff in church or Sunday School. And I assume the people sitting around me in that church, as well as the Pastor, would consider themselves Christians.

[RareLubbockDem]

88. I posted this elsewhere but

I think it's worthy of posting here.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/opinion/9581909.htm

[RareLubbockDem]

89. dupe post.

[Jacobin]

91. Gee, I can't imagine why?

from a freepturd thread:

God is not done with him (GWB)yet. God never leaves any thing half done. FOUR MORE YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!
He is a blessed man. So many Christians(millions) here in the USA and around the world praying for our President. If one can put ten thousand, how much more millions. ALLELUAH!!!!!!!!!! No weapon that hollyweird, Mike Moore, George Sorrow, terrorist, or any other evil force shall prosper against our President. We will see the GLORY of GOD!!!!!!!!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2444048

[TankLV]

94. It's the consumate, utter hypocrisy of the self proclaimed ones.

And the attempt by most organized religions to impose their beliefs on the rest of us, especially when their own house is in such utter disgrace.

They refuse to "live and let live".

[CrowNotAngelGRL]

99. Just wanted to say

I agree. Just because there are some Christian's out there who like to flaunt their beliefs around not all do. My family is Christian and none of us do that. Myself, my brother, mom and grandparents on my Mom's side are all for Kerry. My Dad I'm not sure about or anybody else now after the debates.

[Kazak]

100. My problem with Christianity...

is it's perpetuation of the domination meme. For example, that a wife should submit to her husband, or that mankind should maintain dominion over nature. I just don't jive with that stuff. Egalitarianism, or the Partnership Model, is more along my way of thinking. That said...I DON'T "put down" Christians, or at least try to catch myself before I do...that's gets us nowhere.

[Elginoid]

104. Do I have to look at "In Allah We Trust" on my money? No...

"Is there any problem with being an Atheist?..."
"No..." you say...

Really?

How much chance do you suppose a confirmed atheist would have of being elected to virtually any office in this country?

This is a christian country, no matter how many people might choose to say otherwise.
The U.S. is the only country in the world where the particular faith of a person of such importance when choosing a president.
A lot of christians seem to have taken the rantings of an apocolyptic jewish cult a little too seriously and actually believe that a half man/half god being of human virgin birth walked the earth some 2000 years ago(the mormons have a slightly different take on the jesus story, but as long as they agree to stay in utah, we won't talk about it).
A lot of theses same christians belive further that this jesus christ died on a cross, and that that somehow "cleanses the souls" of all the humans that believe in him(the "how" and "why" of this is something i've never gotten a satisfactory answer to, btw...after all, if their god so so all-powerful, why can't it just "forgive" their sins without all the melodrama? after all- isn't it the god that not only keeps track of each person's sins, but also decides what constitutes a sin in the first place? if their god is so all-powerful, can't he make an eraser so big that he could just use it to erase what he determines are people's sins? rather than having some roman soldiers nail his stepson to a tree? Or is he just some kind of sick fuck who gets his jollies like that?

in other words- some of us are very sick & tired of the way that christianity permeates what should be a secular public lifestyle and government, especially when the story that it's based on is so ludicrous, and so many otherwise seemingly intelligent adults seem completely unwilling to honestly question the tenets their faith is based on.

Some of us would love to see people applying their energies to to improving the common good and real-world lifestyle of everyone, rather than epending so much effort worrying about the eventual outcome of their personal eternal soul.

and when they combine the whole "personal eternal soul" with an all powerful god that's watching over them personally, and keeping tally of their own personal sins...well...it just all starts to seem a tad arrogant on the part of the "believer".

A lot of us feel like christians pretty much rule the roost- and the roost rulers are always going to be the targets of the most derision.

[JackDragna]

105. Yes, there IS an essential problem with being a Christian.

The fault with being a Christian doesn't exist because of people like Falwell, Pat Robertson, the Inquisition or any other bad things people claiming to be Christians have done. The problem with Christianity, as it is with any religion that derives some of its truth value from supernatural powers and laws, is that liberal Christians, the kind who share the values of most people here, really have no way of saying their way of practicing their religion is better than others. If you accept, for even a second, that a supernatural force is an acceptable source of morals or philosophy, then one cannot defend one stance on an issue over others.

Take, for example, conservative Christiany's stance on homosexual marriage. Most here think gays should be allowed to married. Conservative Christians do not. Both groups claim what they say comes from the Bible, a document whose veracity comes in part from the word of God contained within its pages. Because the truth or existence of supernatural entities cannot be empirically verified, neither group can make a more significant truth claim than the other regarding the correctness of their position. It boils down to this: if you let people base their morality on the will of entities whose existence cannot be empircally tested, then there is no basis for saying one set of beliefs is better than the other. The person who says God told him to "kill fags" and goes on a killing spree in a gay bar has just as much moral authority as Martin Luther King. We're all not naturally very symapthetic to the kind of whackjob who would do something like that, but we cannot criticize his views as being less reasonable than Dr. King's just because his opinions differ from those typically found by proponents of liberal politics. If deriving morals from belief in God is unreasonable for the zealot, then it is equally as unreasonable for the mild-mannered do-gooder.

This is why I want liberals, in particular, to abandon their religions. Framing moral debats in terms of who's a true Christian, Jew, Muslim, Zoroastrian or whatnot turns the debates into little more than finger-pointing and accusations the other side is interpreting their religion incorrectly. If you can argue without invoking tenets of your religion, fine. Do not, however, expect those of us who operate from a purely empirical perspective to be pleased when the liberal Christians among you take up the cross to defend liberal values in the same manner conservatives do to defend what they believe. At the end of the day, it is just as irrational.

[Dem2theMax]

110. I'm a liberal Christian. I come to DU to learn about and talk about

politics. Not religion. If I wanted to talk religion, I could easily go to a different board. So if you can possibly stand it, I'm NOT going to give up my religion just because you say you want us to. It's none of your business.

[mr blur]

121. No, it isn't any of our business

Which is why we object to some other people pushing it into our faces all the time and using it as a justification for their actions. I mean, how do you really feel about Bush invading Iraq because, he says, God wanted him to? Scary possibilities, there, don't you think?

(ntw, I didn't notice anyone demanding that you give up your religion)

[Cheswick2.0]

140. well then you didn't read jackdragna's post

(ntw, I didn't notice anyone demanding that you give up your religion)
Jackdragna did.

PS,...I have never seen anyone on DU shove religion in anyones face.

[Selwynn]

138. That's not even close to the only way to look at it.

You make an awful lot of assumptions about what is a "necessary" part of being religious that don't reflect me in the slightest. I'd encourage you to think a little more carefully before painting with such a broad brush.

It is not an absolute truism of religion that it necessary believes in supernatural laws, or "supernatural" at all to be honest. It is also not necessary for a religious person to believe that his or her beliefs are superior to someone else's beliefs.

Those mis assumptions alone are enough to undo the particular claims you've made here.

[Cheswick2.0]

142. oh well, tough shit jack

it's not going to happen.

[LanternWaste]

153. What is an acceptable, empirically-sound source of morality?

What is an acceptable, empirically-sound source of morality? You appear to say that religion is not since it cannot be verified empirically, so I infer you believe there is a source of morality that *can* be verified empirically.

In my opinion, all morality has, as a substantive foundation of it's structure (regardless of what you believe the basis of it is), a certain degree of faith (i.e, trust in that of which we do not have full knowledge)...

[nomatrix]

106. Hmmmm. How would anyone know you as a christian?

"Unfortunately, I think some people here on DU seem to (for lack of better words) not like Christians simply for being Christian. As a Christian, I am disappointed both in the actions of some people who call themselves Christians and in the way some DUers seem to not like us because of those so-called Christians."

[Zhade]

107. I don't get some Christians' arrogance, either. I dislike both abuses.

I've seen just as many Christians here arrogantly talk of how they know that non-Christians will "see the light" and "come around" when "their heart is open".

If they wish me to respect their right to believe as they do (and that is how I hope I conduct myself, failings aside), I would hope they would treat non-Christians like myself with the same respect.

I think that's a reasonable expectation.

[BlueEyedSon]

109. "Do I agree with Muslims? No. "

What is that about? I assume you also dissagree with Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Sikhs, Rastsfarians, Wiccans, Zoroastrians, Secular Humanists, etc. Gettin' pretty lonely there, huh?

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
- Stephen Roberts

[LanternWaste]

154. Hmmm...

C.S. Lewis wrote (I'm paraphrasing here) that Christians are not under any obligation to deny that other religions are completely wrong. That some religions are, in fact much closer to particular truths that Christianity itself.

For my part, I don't think that disagreement with another person or group of person makes one more lonely. If that were the case, I daresay each person on this planet would be a singularly lonely individual-- as I've never met two people who agree with each other on even the most inconsequential of points let alone the truly deep ones on every letter.

[grs]

111. Christians

In general what we have is people using the C word as a tool. As a vote getter. to manipulate and denigrate all others. This is what I think people object to.

George W. Bush is a hearer of God's word not a doer....BIG DIFFERENCE

[JNelson6563]

113. Ok, here's the scoop

I am a former Christian, now an atheist. I have no problem with what people believe and I do not condone attacking anyone for their personal beliefs. I think all here can agree that it's not right for anyone to force their belief (or non-belief) system on others.

Where it gets interesting, and I hope this is helpful insight for Christians like you Ih8thegop, is when folks take the journey I did. For some who grow up as believers (I'd reckon this to be true of any religion) and then put much effort into getting at "the truth" of the matter, well it can really be quite an epiphany.

I took a journey that required several years, endless study and contemplation and I arrived at a conclusion that left me feeling a whole lot of negative things. One of those feelings was of having been "chumped" (for lack of a better term). It is easy to feel a little bitter over such realizations and, maybe even more importantly to understand, somewhat empowered by this new-found knowledge.

Couple fresh realizations that are the opposite of what you held to be true your whole life with the sense of empowerment new knowledge and clearer vision can bring and, well let me tell you, it is so easy to fall into the habit of obliterating believer assertions.

I felt this way at first, long ago. In time it has passed (for me) and I am far more comfortable with a live-and-let-live approach to this whole topic. Just remember though, once someone has done a 180 with their mindset, they can be a little over-zealous with their newly minted views.

Also good to remember is that those who do not believe are often thought of/referred to as less than human, undeserving of consideration, unable to be "true Americans" etc. We are always told "America is a Christian nation" and other pompous, incorrect stuff like that. This can create a backlash where some poor, undeserving soul on DU makes mention of their beliefs and then outta nowhere comes this pissed off atheist.

Again, I don't condone attacking the beliefs of others or forcing your own on others. I'm just letting you know some of the feelings out there. I shudder when I read someone attacking Christians just for being Christians, just as I shudder when I read a Christian tell and atheist they are a sub-human.

These differences among us and how we let them divide us are one of the permanent blockades to us humans continuing to evolve for the greater good IMO.

Peace to all--no matter what your beliefs--

Julie

[Elginoid]

123. I follow a similar path...

I had a parochial school/religious background, and was definitely a believer- i thought.

but you're right about feeling "chumped" once a person has the revelation that finally shows them the truth about the Big Lie...I've lost most of my bitterness for religoids, and to quote Elvis: "i used to be disgusted, but now i'm just amused..."

[sendero]

118. If your faith has been hijacked...

... (and I claim it has) ... who but those who share the faith can clean it up?

I see no action whatsoever by "real" Christians to do anything about the Falwells and the Robertsons and the creeping hate that characterizes most Christian mass media at this time.

Therefore I can only conclude that they must agree with them on some level. Sorry, I realize that does not include you, but it apparently includes a lot more than just a fringe element.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

149. Wrong

See my post above about the Sojourners organization putting a full-page ad in the Republican convention coverage section of the New York Times.

If you aren't an Oregon resident, then you don't know about the way the mainstream churches fought the first two attempts to put anti-gay amendments into the state constitution.

Mainstream Christians condemn the Falwell types all the time, as well as lobbying for peace and justice issues in state legislatures and on Capitol Hill. There were huge delegations from mainstream churches in the peace marches before the Iraq War.

But I know from experience that mainstream religion (like mainstream peace marchers) does not get publicity, because it's not "sensational." Coverage of peace marches focuses in on the oddest-looking participants, ignoring the ordinary Middle Americans who are marching. I berated a Portland news cameraman once for focusing in on a bunch of kids with Kool-Aid dyed hair and multiple piercings when the crowd was actually composed mostly of conventional-looking people over forty.

A case in point was the last General Convention of the Episcopal Church., which discussed all sorts of national and international social issues over a period of several days, but the entire news coverage had to do with approving the gay bishop--because that appealed to the news media's embrace of sensationalism.

You may not be aware that the heads of all the mainstream Christian denominations issued a joint statement condemning the Iraq War. That's because the news was probably on page B23, and definitely was not considered "newsworthy" by the TV news establishment.

[sendero]

150. Maybe...

... these churches should find a way to MAKE their message newsworthy. The fundies damn sure have.

[Forkboy]

119. There's religious people in this world?

I never noticed :P

[TexasSissy]

122. I will put down the "Christian Right" because they are religious

fanatics. Both parties have extremists. I reserve the right to put down both.

But I don't think I have ever put down Christians or Christianity in and of itself. Just the Christian Right, who I (and most, I think) view as extremists who have taken control of the GOP. Many Republicans think the same thing.

[IronLionZion]

132. I put down all religious extremists

I'm Christian and I strongly disagree with the murderous hateful policies of "good Christians" like John Ashcroft

[Selwynn]

135. I believe religion should be personal and private, not institutionalized

I have huge problems with institutionalized religion in many if not most forms because it is usually, as someone else pointed out, about little more than power and social control.

I believe religion should be, and always has been in its truest sense, a personal matter of the heart between the individual and no one else. I believe that when we surrender our personal right to "work out our own salvation" and turn that over to a church "authority" that is the beginning of the end. I have little nice to say about institutionalized religion.

Except to say that "institutionalized" religion is not the same thing as saying anyone who goes to a gathering place where other people of like religious mind will be and fellowship together is part of the evils of the institutionalization process. The organized religion I reject is the kind that looks to rule society, control a nation, take over politics, or rewrite the laws of the land. That's a lot different that me getting to gether with 25 of my local friends and sharing our common religious experiences. Nothing wrong with that...

...I mean, heh.. I don't do it, but there's nothing wrong with it. :) I haven't found to many people who I identify with me religiously.

[salin]

137. I don't take offense... most of the bashing is not generalized to all

just the radical, politicized, selfish (who view Christ's only purpose to be to "Save" them - and thus they ignore his teachings) fundamentalists.

As a liberal Christian I loved the following item in the Dallas paper this weekend. Sums my feelings up to a tee. Including my anger at the politicized religious right and their blasphemous righteousness. I hold no grudge against those who lash out at these folks - given the painful lashing out that these folks frequently give out to all who do not fit into their exclusive "club".

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/opinion/9581909.htm

[0007]

145. Teach by actions NOT putting your religion on your sleeve

and advertising that your a good Christian cuz you follow Christ.

[markus]

152. Because the marriage amendment wll pass in my state by 80,90%

because "its the Christian thing to do."

This isn't the fundies. These are the mainstream churches coming out in favor of institutionalized homophobism.

Oganized Christianity has an "agenda" to impose their "lifestype choice" on all Americans, an agenda that is fundamentally anti-American.

[Avalux]

157. Guess I'll add my thoughts on this one -

you wrote "let's not infringe on one another's beliefs". Exactly. The belief in Christ does not offend me. What offends me is when individuals walk around claiming to be Christian, not living thier lives according to the teachings of Christ but at the same time criticizing others who do not believe as they do. Hypocrites.

There is nothing more disturbing than having a 'Christian' tell you they are worried about your soul because you're a sinner, then trying to save you.

So yes, let's not infringe on one another's beliefs and we'll all live together in peace. It's so simple, you'd think mankind would have figured it out a long, long time ago.

[Momgonepostal]

158. Excellent Post!

I couldn't agree more.

I can understand why the extreme religious right makes people angry...they do me too! So I hate being lumped in the same group with them. Christians are as diverse as any other group of people.