DU this Amazon Review

[Gore1FL]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345457234/qid=1096786422/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-3367698-2121566?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

The book is an alternate history story (one of many that started in the Civil war and are now at the beginnings of WW II) The confederacy was about to attack the US in the last book. Only a mere 50% thought this review was helpful.


2 of 4 people found the following review helpful:

Kind of Like the Bush Administration, September 30, 2004
Reviewer: Amused "Amused" (St. Louis) - See all my reviews
U.S. has no allies. A mad man (with complete disregard for the Constitution of his country) from the south (who has a problem with minorities) is trying to destroy the US. The main thrust of his attention is Ohio.

Art imitates Life.

[951]

1. Yes or No?

[Gore1FL]

3. Yes

n/t

[RoyGBiv]

2. This Series ...

I've been reading and reviewing this series since it began about 6 years ago with an alternative history called _How Few Remain_, an alternate end to the Civil War and an acount of the Second War of Secession in the 1880's. As a result of one of my reviews, I had some correspondence with Turtledove himself, and it was insightful. He is aware.

The parallels in these books between the alternate history and what is taking place in this country now are truly chilling.

"FREEDOM!" is Jake Featherston's cry, the cry of the American Freedom Party, obviously the US counterpart to Hitler and the Nazi's.

Good books.

That said, I'm not sure what one could hope to accomplish by "DU-ing" the reviews.

[Gore1FL]

4. It is just a funny and strident review

n/t

[RoyGBiv]

5. Oh, okay ...

I get it now.

The link you provided didn't go to the specific review you quoted, so I wasn't realizing what you were getting at.

Sorry ...

[Gore1FL]

6. AS far as the book itself

I started with "How Few Remain" and have been readding them since. I really like how he weaves the story together.

I remembver I finished reading the book where the Freedom party started in the south, and then 9/11 happened, and the eerie mix of political agenda and patriotism crept similarly into our world...

As you said "The parallels in these books between the alternate history and what is taking place in this country now are truly chilling"

One big difference, though, -- Featherstone served in the Confederate Army and didn't desert!

[RoyGBiv]

9. Desertion ...

Good point! :-)

[DemBones DemBones]

11. Skimming through the reviews, I read

one that contained these grafs:

"It is the prejudices that concern me. First, against the South. I am originally from Ohio, but have lived in the South for 58 of my 68 years. I find it hard to believe that Turtledove can only find two decent people in the South to write about, two African Americans. The Hispanic character may be sympathetic, but still very racist. I was born in the North, however the last 58 of my 68 years have been spent in the South and I think I know the region far better than Turtledove. Before the Civil War the Underground Railroad would have failed were there not some White Southerners helping. When Virginia, as an example, voted to leave the Union it was a close vote. After the Civil War there were White Southerners who opposed the Jim Crow laws. As a young man I was in the Civil Rights Movement and I worked with many born Southern white men and women who supported that movement. Mr. Turtledove is obviously trying to relate the killing of Black Americans in camps with what happened to the Jews in Nazi Germany. However, there are stories of German citizens who resisted this and who helped the Jews. In other words, Turtledove paints a South that is not just as bad, but worse than Nazi Germany."

"The second prejudice he reveals is against religion. It is strange that with all the facets of society covered that he leaves out religion. The only two people he writes about with a religious connection is a Socialist congresswoman in the North and an advisor to Jake Featherstone, both Jewish, but obviously not believers. Where are the Christian leaders? You cannot write about history without covering that too, something Eric Flint does a beautiful job of. Maybe Turtledove is afraid that if he covered Southern Christians he might find some willing to help Black Americans. In the North, tradition alone requires that this area be covered. I am sure Turtledove would be negative in dealing with religious leaders, but if honest he would have to show the positive ones too. The role of religion and faith in God cannot be ignored in writing history whether in alternate or real time"


If this is accurate, I'm disappointed in advance! I'll still try reading Turtledove's books but like this reviewer, I am very weary of fiction that portrays all Southerners (except blacks) and all Christians (except blacks) as total assholes. On the positive side, it is an alternate reality in which the CSA wins and that's not fact so I'll try to look at his negative portrayals of Southerners and Christians as alternate reality, too. Maybe we would have all been assholes if Lee had whipped Grant's ass. But, how to explain assholes up North?

:shrug:

I was intrigued to read that Turtledove has been a prof of ancient and medieval history and has also written about the Byzantines. I enjoy most history but am fascinated with the middle ages and the Byzantines. The art of medieval Europe and the art of the Byzantine Empire ("The eyes are the windows of the soul") are a major part of my interest. I know life was, allegedly, nasty, brutish, and short for most medieval people but the aristocracy at least had some class then (chivalry, castles, shining armor, the Arthurian tales, etc.) Bread and circuses are better than nothing, after all, and the pageantry, morality plays, pilgrimages, jousts, hunts, and other diversions may have been a better mental balm than television.

But I digress! What do you recommend as a good book to start with? Both where to start his Civil War series (seems there is more than one trilogy?) and a good non-Civil War book.

Has he quit writing about the middle ages or the Byzantines? I skimmed through the titles of the first 50 books listed at Amazon under his name and most seem to deal with alternate Civil War stories. "Ruled Brittania," about an Elizabethan England that never exists (Good Queen Bess in the Tower for years, Catholics rule) sounds like something I'd enjoy because of the time period and being set in England. (God knows I'm used to reading of the evils of Catholicism in those days -- and it would be alternate history to omit the Inquisition or Bloody Mary.) Have you read it? How about one about Troy and Gilgamesh. or other "dawn of civilzation" books?

Got to go to sleep, try not to think about books to be read! TIA for suggestions on books to read.

[Gore1FL]

12. I must say I disagree with the review (some very minor spoilers)

Assholes abound on both sides, and almost all the characters have some redeeming qualites to them. I think when reading this is to realize this is a world where the CSA won and dominated until WWI. Slavery was not eliminated until the 1880s, and only blacks that could vote were given that right because of their service in WWI, and as it turns out, they are afraid to use it under president Featherstone (who is nothing short of a Nazi).

The U.S. is hardly a picnic. Until WWI they are closer to a Bismarck Germany than a Free society.

This is not about the USA today, it is about a USA and CSA that never existed.

Finally, there is other religion too. The Mormons in Utah are a HUGE (and recurring) part of this story.

The first book in the civl war series in "How Few Remain". Lincoln is a character in that book (he was never re-elected, and hence never executed

[DemBones DemBones]

7. Roy, I'll bet a colorful guy like you knows good writing

and good alternative history.

Seriously, I'll read your reviews and probably then look for the books at the public library.

[RoyGBiv]

8. This isn't high art ...

Paraphrasing Lincoln, for people who like this sort of thing, this is the sort of thing they'll like.

I dunno if you can find my reviews anymore. I actually haven't done one since _The Center Cannot Hold_, and most of them appear in online mags that may or may not exist anymore. I think my original review is archived somewhere on a CW Round Table site since I presented it, in an expanded form, in a talk.

Anyway, do I detect a note of disdain for Turtledove? :-) Well, if so, some people don't like his work due to particular devices he tends to use that some consider cheap. I do, even if I have certain criticisms. Like I said, it's not high art, but it's entertaining, and Turtledove is actually a historian and so understands what he's talking about.

[Gore1FL]

10. I hate his sex scenes

They are all identical -- book to book to book!

His stories are good, and I always look forward to the next in this series.

I did not like the Shakespere one where the Spanish Armada was not defeated, and Britain was occupied. I could never get into it.

[RoyGBiv]

13. I agree ...

I see almost no purpose in them either.

The sex scenes involving "Earnest" in the American Empire series made some sense because they helped develop that sub-plot. Other than that, they seem contrived.

[DemBones DemBones]

14. No disdain at all. I like a lot of books that aren't

high art, if they're reasonably well-written (undying prose not required, just. do. not. bore. me. to. death), have a halfway decent plot, and are not rife with factual errors. I mean, just because it's fiction doesn't mean you get to rewrite history. Unless you are supposed to be doing so. As in alternate history.

But truly I'm not much of a book snob, just always looking for a good read. I'm tired of a lot of what's out there as too many novelists recycle one plot for a dozen books (American mystery writers seem particularly guilty of this.) I'm annoyed by books about the Civil War in which all the Northern characters are virtuous abolitionists and all the Southern characters are idiots who rape slaves and beat their wives (or vice versa.) Partly, I hate that because I've lived in the South most of my life, but I'd hate it nearly as much if the Yankees were all shown as evil and the Rebs all as good. Stereotypes are just stupid. If such a book has other redeeming qualities (writing, plot) I can enjoy it, though, and the stereotyping becomes a minor quibble.

"Ahab's Wife" (a bit of alternate reality there!) was such a book. It had some stereotyping but the writing was wonderful. "Voyage of the Narwhal" (fiction woven in with the facts about lost Arctic explorations and the Golden Age of American naturalists) is another. Have you ever read Andrea Barrett? I first heard of her when she won the National Book Award several years back for "Ship Fever and Other Stories," took a chance on it for $10 or so from Quality Paperback, and was blown away, have read all her work since. "Ship Fever" is a novella about Irish immigrants to Canada and the plagues of ship fever, the quarantines on an island before they could enter Canada, etc. I mention all the detail in case you might be interested in her work. She is a biologist and that shows through in her writing a lot, too, which I identify with. I guess they could be considered high art but I think they're good straight-forward writing.

Many considered the Civil War novel "Cold Mountain" to be a masterpiece. I hated "Cold Mountain" so much I quit reading it about page 60. I had expected to love it but could not believe in the characters and was bothered by the factual errors I found. The writing was okay -- though as a friend who also hated it said, "Too many damn leaves, nothing but descriptions of leaves." Maybe I'll try it again someday as it puzzles me why otherwise intelligent friends liked it and I didn't. Maybe you liked it and can explain to me why I should. (Good luck on that!)

OK, I'm really going to try to get some sleep now. . . Have to go to a friend's birthday party at noon. It's hard to resist talking about books, though.

P.S. Maybe you'd PM me the name you use for reviews at Amazon, if it's different from your DU name.

[Gore1FL]

15. I personally liked this series

He put real historical figures in the books, but in a totatly different environment. Gen Custer gets really annoying.

[RoyGBiv]

16. Books and such ...

To be perfectly honest, I'm not much of a fan of alternative history or historical novels generally, in part for the reasons you yourself have mentioned. (Although there are notable exceptions that I like a great deal.) The factual errors, stereotypes, and the use of deus ex machina, of which Turtledove is particularly fond it seems, all turn me off. It can get so bad I completely lose my ability to "suspend disbelief," and I start critiquing the story as though it were a history, and once that happens, the book has lost me. If you ever want to get me riled up about historical fiction, just mention Jeff Shaara.

And for more honesty, I got involved in Turtledove's series premised on an alternate end to the Civil War because of one character, James Longstreet. I have a special interest in him as a historical figure, maintain a website devoted to studying his life, have written papers, given presentations, etc. on him. If I ever bother to try for my PhD, I'll write a bio of him, but I doubt that'll ever happen. I may write the bio anyway someday, but I doubt anyone would pay attention to it seeing as how I don't have the "credentials."

ANYWAY, Turtledove's premise takes place in such a way that many of the tragic events of Longstreet's life do not take place, and he eventually becomes President of the CSA and was in this alternate world responsible for granting nominal freedom to the slaves. (Longstreet is famous in part for having been a high ranking Confederate officer who after the war joined the Republican party and counseled Southerners to accept Negro Suffrage. For this he was labeled a traitor.) That along with some private conversations I had with Turtledove about Longstreet hooked me, for personal reasons, and now I'm in a mode where I feel it necessary to follow this out to the end. I haven't read the most recent book yet. The last one left me somewhat cold and bored, so I haven't worked up the motivation yet. Although I hear the latest release is more in line with what I'm accustomed to, so when I get time, I'll read it.

I'll look into Andrea Barrett. No, I haven't read anything by her, but after the election season is over, I'm going to need to immerse myself in some fiction for awhile.

RE: Cold Mountain

The thing I've realized about Cold Mountain is that people tend either to love it or hate it, and there's not a lot of common ground between the two positions. I happened to love the book, but I've never been able to convince someone who didn't like it that they should. So, I won't try too hard to do that.

What I like about it is simple to state but hard to explain. I like it because it's "real," that is stripped of the romanticism. Yes, I know there are errors, but not the kind of errors that plague most fiction of this kind. It shows the effects of the war on common people. It dives headlong into a subject that almost no novelist has ever tackled with regard to the CW, that being the true nature of the "home guard" and how for the common citizens of the South, there was often little difference between Yankee raiders and these goons. The home front was a harsh, unforgiving world in which daily survival, not broad political questions, were the what moved people.

Ironically, the story really is, deep down, a romance, but not a "romanticized" romance, if you get my meaning. It doesn't have a wonderfully happy ending even though there's a small message of hope which I think was added to appease the American market. Again this is more in line with reality, an unromanticized vision of life in the 19th century. Life wasn't wonderful. People died for stupid reasons. People cried and tried to push on the best they could. Sometimes, walking through a forest and looking at the leaves for a few moments was the only solace they had.

With regard to "the leaves," I get your meaning, but I liked that too. I think Frazier is a master of describing setting in an age when a lot of authors simply don't bother. But, things like this are why I don't try to convince anyone. If you don't like that, you don't like it. I can't claim my opinion is any more right than yours when it comes to personal taste.

As for my reviews, they're not on Amazon. I did not make myself clear. The reviews I've written were originally intended for a Usenet audience, and some were picked up by various websites that asked to use them when the books were new in print. The only one I know that's available is the one I wrote on How Few Remain, which is actually one of the worst reviews I did.

[DemBones DemBones]

17. I'm looking forward to checking out Turtledove's books soon.

Maybe I'll have to try "Cold Mountain" again. My smartest friend read it around the time of the movie coming out and she liked it and another friend who had not liked it re-read it and liked it this time. It seems like a book I should like. Maybe that's the problem; being told I should like it, I couldn't. But I've never had that reaction before -- sometimes I like "must read" books, sometimes I don't. It's the only book I've figuratively thrown across the room and refused to finish, though. (To be fair, no one said that I should like it, just said how much they liked it.) Did that make sense? Who cares, I'm going to bed. I'll see what crucial points I missed tomorrow, maybe tell you about a recent Civil War book I did like.

Coincidentally, I visited a Civil War fortification today. (It's near the city civic center where I attended a party. This city was mostly burned to the ground after Sherman had HQ here and then began his March. Strange to think of that.) A friend who's a native Georgian was with me. (I'm just 1/4 Southern, plus 1/4 Irish New Englander, 1/2 pure Brit). She and I had driven to the party together and after walking around looking at the cannon and such, she mentioned that her father always referred to Wm. Tecumseh Sherman as "Sherman, that son of a bitch." We talked about how odd it is that Southerners are expected to have gotten over the invasion of their land and their complete humiliation by the conquering enemy, and how few non-Southerners can see the parallels between continuing resentment here and resentments among Middle East peoples that trace back to a conquest or insult a thousand years or more in the past. I guess it shows that Americans don't know history very well, particularly not the history of others.