Kerry and Health Care: Canadians do you get good Medicine?

[StClone]

A Kerry Presidency is looking more probable and it is time to look at some of his goals. One of the key proposals to a Kerry Presidency is affordable health care. Freepers and assorted wing-nuts are calling it a disastrous Canada-styled Socialized plan that.

From the Kerry website is this excerpt:


Cover All Americans With Quality Care

The Kerry-Edwards plan will give every American access to the range of high-quality, affordable plans available to members of Congress and extend coverage to 95 percent of Americans, including every American child. Their plan will also fight to erase the health disparities that persist along racial and economic lines, ensure that people with HIV and AIDS have the care they need, end discrimination against Americans with disabilities and mental illnesses, and ensure equal treatment for mental illness in our health system.

...more at:

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/health_care/

This does sound like socialized medicine! Not like tax breaks and Medical savings accounts.

Is Canada's system really a disaster? Did Hillary's plan follow a particular health care system in Europe/Canada or was it new from the ground up? Kerry's site has a bare boned account of the plan but does look interesting.

[TexasSissy]

1. I think Canada's system is government-paid.

The system Kerry proposes is not a single-payer government plan that provides health CARE (which I think is what Canada's is), but rather, a subsidized plan involving health COVERAGE (insurance). People will pay premiums according to their ability to pay. Small businesses will be able to pool resources and buy plans similar to large businesses. With such a large pool of businesses and individuals, costs can be negotiated.

Employees will continue to get coverage through their employers, I think.

I haven't read the details, but I'm pretty sure it is NOT a totally government-provided single payer system of health CARE like Canada's and like the one that Kucinich proposed.

I don't think he'll be able to achieve this right away. He has stated that his immediate goal is for all CHILDREN to have coverage.

[Cleita]

10. We need single payer coverage for all here like in Canada..

The system you and Kerry advocate is another clunky overly-bureaucratic plan that will cost more money than needed and will eventually be doomed to failure.

[TexasSissy]

11. Where did you get the idea that I have a health care platform?

Please take care when reading others' posts. (Hope you take more care than that when considering the type of health care system to endorse.)

[Cleita]

15. Since I have been involved in this issue for over a decade

I feel compelled to address this issue anytime it comes up. If you do not agree with me, that is fine. If I do not agree with you, I will say so. Were did you get the impression I thought you were endorsing anything? Did you know that a low estimate for the cost of Kerry's plan will be $653 billion over a decade?

I have read your post and I do know which health system would be best for our country. It's not the one that you suggest or that Kerry endorses, however, at this stage of the game I am willing to look at anything that is an improvement over what we have.

I was just reading an article in the SF Chronicle for today about the high rate of infant mortality in the Bay area of minority children, something that shouldn't be happening in the "greatest country with the best health care in the world".

[TexasSissy]

20. If you read my post, as you say you did, you should have noticed

that I voiced no opinion whatsoever on any health care plan. I merely answered the guy's question about what I thought Kerry's plan is.

End of story. Your post says "your and Kerry's plan." You obviously mis-read my post. I accept your apology.

[Cleita]

22. Lengua franca here please!

I never said you had an opinion. I realize that. All I said is you suggested Kerry's plan. I do not consider a suggestion an opinion.

[elehhhhna]

2. Forget Canada, etc. & look to Medicare. We can build off THAT. Seniors?

Say we fix the bogus dicount pill plan. How's Medicare workin' for ya?

[Cleita]

9. If it weren't for Medicare my husband would be pushing up

daisies. The problem with private insurance is that they dump you when you actually get sick and need them, or they make the premiums so high you can't afford them.

If Medicare were properly funded, updated and extended to all, we would have a comprehensive and efficiently run health care system for everyone. Studies also indicate that the money spent on health care in this country could be reduced from $5,000 per capita to $2,500 to $3,000 per capita.

Part of the reason for this savings is that the single payer system eliminates a lot of administrative costs that run up to 15% of the premiums collected. Medicare's administrative costs are between 2% and 3% of premiums collected. Since Medicare is not trying to make a profit, this also leaves more dollars for health care instead of being funneled into Wall Street for profits.

[juajen]

18. My husband is on Medicare

What we do not like are the amounts left over after Medicare pays. We can never afford these and cannot afford supplemental insurance either. He has been disabled since 1984 when he was 43 years old. I have a history of heart attacks, strokes, have a leaking valve, plus chron's disease and diabetes. Because I did not have enough recent quarters, I do not qualify for disability and Medicare and we make too much for Medicaid. One heart attack has already put us into bankruptcy and now we are facing another one for a recent stroke (mine). Thankfully, we keep going, but without enough money for any medications (except aspirin for me) and no insurance at all for me; which means no preventive care. So, even a leftover bill of a couple of hundred dollars is impossible for us to pay. Nowhere to go. If I live until I'm 65 yrs. 8 months, then I will be eligible for Medicare. I was 63 in Sept. so I have a tall mountain to climb.

Something surely needs to be done, but I don't think I will see it in my lifetime.

[Cleita]

21. I'm so sorry this is happening to you.. Your

story is where our problem lies with our awful system. I too am months off being 65. Our Medicare system doesn't cover enough true even for those who get coverage, but it is better than the nothing that people like you and me get and who are left twisting in the wind. We are too old for coverage at work or often even to work and too young for Medicare. Also, these programs could be easily fixed with the right management of our health care funds. It's a crime what the Republicans are doing to what little universal health care we still have due to the Gingrich doctrine.

[Minstrel Boy]

3. Freepers also say Canada is "bankrupt"

We're not. We run surpluses, we lead the G8 in growth, and our health care is far from a disaster. It's been underfunded in recent years, but a deal hammered out with the provinces will see billions in extra $$$.

[StClone]

5. What about care? I always hear things

Like America is where Canadians go to get "real" treatment for cancer and other major ailments. Is there any truth to this or is it all winger Self-aggrandizing America's medical system.

[Cleita]

7. Yes, sometimes Canadians are sent to the USA for advanced

care, where we have superior techniques and clinical care. They can just as easily be sent to England or Germany as well for the same reasons. The best part is that the Canadian health care system pays for this, so that the Canadian patient gets the best care available in the world.

[StClone]

14. Thanks

That explains a lot.

[eridani]

29. It's a smart business decision on Canada's part

They are next to a much larger country with an oversupply of many specialists and equipment.

The lab I work in just decided not to replace its thermal analyzer. Why? We don't do enough of those tests to make buying a new one worth it, so we just subcontract the work to larger or differently specialized labs.

What is astonishing about freepers is that what is smart business in industry instantly becomes evidence of incompetence when governments do the same thing.

[ilovenicepeople]

30. For correction

Canada is the larger country,but I'm sure thats not what you meant.:hi:

[Cleita]

4. For one thing Kerry isn't advocating Canadian style health care.

I wish he were but he's not. He is proposing funding the uninsured and small businesses so they can buy the same health care from private insurers that federal employees get including Congress.

IMHO the Canadian plan, which is similar to our Medicare, but covers everyone not just the elderly and buys more care with fewer co-pays, would be far superior and less costly than Kerry's plan to keep the insurance companies happy.

However, the truth is that until we control Congress we will see very little health care legislation during his term.

[Astrochimp]

6. My reply to "doesn't work in Canada" BS is........

"But don't you think the USA can do anything better than Canada? Just because Canadians can't make it work, Americans can't?"


Sorry Canada!

But IMHO it is a waste of time trying to correct their mis-info, and easy to call them un-American if they think WE can't do better.

Or you got to talk right down to earth in a language they can all understand.


I could spend hours looking up facts, but they won't read them, or say the are bias- or I can use BS like they do (and fall for)


David

[Swede]

8. I think it's working just fine.

One less bill to worry about,don't have to be terrified of getting sick if unemployted. Sure there are problems,but they get all the notice. It works all the time,but "No airplanes crashed today" is never a headline.

[HEyHEY]

12. Needs a few fixes but overall it's okay

[progressivebydesign]

13. My Belgian friend works for their health system there.. interesting..

She tells me that the bureaucrats in Belgium are working toward totall privatizing their health system!! Now, the health care is taken care of by the government.. except.. if you want more extensive care, or want to have more control, you can buy your own insurance. In fact, she said that most people buy supplemental private insurance, for the more expensive treatments and surgeries. They are worried now that the govt is moving toward privatization, because they KNOW they will not be able to afford it there.

She said that no one can get rich in Belgium, unless you are born rich or are a pop star. Their taxes are near 50%... They pay for school buses out of their own pocket, etc. With the move toward privatization of the health care system, they'll be even worse off.

I like Kerry's ideas, because I don't believe that the US drug companies and insurers will ever loosen their stranglehold on the profit centers.

Oh.. and in Belgium it's MANDATORY that you vote and work in the election offices.. like jury duty.

[Cleita]

16. This has been a problem in countries that allow private health

insurance and care for those who can afford it. It starts nibbling away at the government health care system, lowering the standard of health care for the poor. The Canadian system doesn't allow for this, while the British system and apparently the Belgium system does.

Also, does your friend actually pay 50% in taxes or is that a maximum tax rate for those with the highest incomes? I found out that this was the case in most countries who supposedly paid high taxes that it wasn't the majority of workers who were in that bracket.

[daleo]

17. Our system is great!

You would all come to love it in no time. Even our most right wing parties don't dare say that they will dismantle it (although they would try to do so, stealthily).

Fortunately, I am still young enough to have not gone through any real medical emergencies, but I have had plenty of family and friends go through all kinds of emergencies. Serious things generally get resolved quickly. Not having money come into consideration really makes things easier emotionally. Less family arguments, that sort of thing. No guilt on the part of the sick about going through the family's assets. No fighting with insurance companies.

You will be able to come up with negative stories from Canadians - nothing is perfect, and some people will always complain.

Health outcomes in Canada are generally superior to the U.S. - I mean at the population level, where life expectancy is longer, infant mortality is lower, etc. I suppose if you are really wealthy, or have a very good health plan (a bigshot in a corporation) the U.S. model works out fine. But for the vast majority, our system would be better.

[IronLionZion]

19. I want to know how he's going to reduce costs

He wasn't specific about how he would cut administrative costs and reduce waste and fraud. I like ethical free enterprise as much as most economic conservatives, but we have to admit that it doesn't help poor people because it just isn't profitable. Private health insurance takes at least 25% of revenues as profit. They are not going to give that up without a long bloody fight.

And he said something about using government purchasing power to negotiate lower drug prices and re-import from Canada. It's hilarious when people think it's import, because those are American drugs we sold to Canada. If they are safe enough for Canada, then why aren't they safe enough for us?

And I really hope Kerry allows bidding on AIDS drug contracts for Africa. Free-market bidding from companies around the world would lower costs dramatically, like 90% or something. Bush just gives our tax dollars to his buddies/donors in big corporations.

[Cleita]

24. This is why nothing is going to come of this.

The best thing Kerry will be able to do is to protect what we do have in the way of Medicare, Medicaid and CHIPs and stop the dismantling of this system by the right wing corporateers that is going on now. Even if our right wing Congress tries to push through this wholesale privatizing of our health care dollars for profit at least Kerry will be able to use his veto power to stop the train wreck.

We are going to have to change this at a grass roots level. As soon as we boot out the "War President" and his agenda of religion, death and destruction maybe we can go back to running this country for the citizens who live here.

[IronLionZion]

23. single-payer insurance is way cheaper

but Kerry would never get that passed. Clinton couldn't do it and Truman couldn't either.

[Cleita]

25. I just want Kerry to keep Congress in check over this

for his first term. It will give those of us who are working on it the chance to trump the industry and I think we can once we get back to business. Kerry is going to have all he can to to deal with the Middle East mess and getting our international policies back on track.

[depakid]

26. The very fact that you'd call it "socialized"

shows that you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. The British NHS- that's socialized medicine. The Canadian system most assuredly isn't. And to even compare Kerry's modest proposals to socialism is patently absurd.

[Lisa]

27. Canada's medicare system isn't just about health care ...

It's also about national unity and creating some kind of moral anchor for our country. Keeping Canada together is something that we're always worrying about, and while the US has also had unity issues, ours are different enough that we've evolved a complicated bunch of things -- sometimes planned, sometimes accidental -- to keep ourselves together. Like the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation -- I guess the nearest US equivalent is PBS and NPR -- but they operate in a much different way than the CBC. It's not just a television network to us.

Some links about how Medicare got started up here:
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-73-851/politics_economy/tommy_douglas/
(Tommy Douglas, by the way, was Kiefer Sutherland's grandpa)
http://www.mqup.mcgill.ca/book.php?bookid=1545
http://www.healthcoalition.ca/health-index.html

I know some Americans say we have "free health care", but actually we do pay for it out of our taxes. It amounts to a subsidized public insurance system. And (unlike the national card system proposed by Bill Clinton) the provinces have responsibility. (Canadian provinces generally have more political power than the American states do -- because of the way our constitution was written.) So it's not quite the Stalinist monolith it's made out to be.

Medicare, for us, began on the Prairies -- the people who designed it were thinking of mutual assistance in times of need, church suppers (yes, Tommy Douglas was a Baptist minister who ran what Americans today would call a "faith-based charity") and that whole ethic. Not some theoretical concoction from a bunch of Marxist academics at some eastern university. So Canadians don't have as much of a reflexive negative response to the concept of "socialized" anything. Publically-owned corporations that look after mass transit, auto insurance, electrical power, etc., just weren't seen in that way by most of us. Sure, they're not perfect, but after seeing the fallout from privatization (e.g. skyrocketing power rates, and the contaminated water tragedy in Walkerton), many Canadians see them as vital services that should stay in the public trust. Nationwide polls put "funding Medicare and the Canada Pension Plan" ahead of paying down the debt (and even tax cuts!).

My point is, it's very hard to transfer an entire way of thinking into another country. When conservative commentators say that copying the Canadian style won't work in the US, I'm inclined to agree. If the US does come up with a plan, it may not be universal -- and evidently the Kerry-Edwards proposal isn't (95%). Universality is something that's important for us, because of the national unity thing -- but US has been getting away from that, and not even school standards or the draft are imposed across the entire population. Because of the much stronger distrust of anything "socialized", I can see why US health care advocates would back off on anything approaching that.

p.s. what Daleo said earlier -- it's interesting that even the right-wing parties up here don't dare say that they want to get rid of Medicare. (Instead, they say they want to "enhance" and "streamline" it, then if they do get into power, they cut it to the point where they can claim it isn't working.) Even Prime Minister Mulroney found that it doesn't pay to go after social programmes in public (his own mom showed up on a protest picket line to defend the pension plan!).

We do get to pick our own doctors. And it does take away a lot of the worry about being bankrupted by illness. People I know who wouldn't have been able to afford cancer surgeries, transplants, etc. are living healthy and debt-free today.

I needed that public funding a lot when I was a "preemie" baby. With good nutrition and exercise (thanks to mom, a public health nurse) I became healthy enough that I haven't needed to draw on the insurance much. I've probably paid in more than I've used, so far during my life -- but the point is that I haven't had to worry, the way some of my US friends have. And my payment premiums are lower (many of them can't afford any insurance at all). Best of all, I don't have to depend on my employer to "look after" me in that sense -- and people I know who have small businesses don't need to provide health insurance for their workers, which simplifies things for them as well.

[Cleita]

28. I wish it were just what you said.

The real problem with Americans getting together on this is the corruption because of the corporate greed in our system. We are deliberately divided by various interests so that we don't unite in a common cause. I don't think we can follow the Canadian system to the letter either.

We do have limited system that works and it needs to be expanded, funded and made to cover everyone. It isn't free either. Everyone is required to pay into it and it's our Medicare system. I often refer to the Canadian system because it is one that works pretty well and I think we can look to it, maybe not as a model to be cloned, but as a system that can offer us some pointers.

Thanks very much for the links.

[eridani]

31. It's up to us, not Kerry, to get universal health care

It is going to be a hard fight, and we need to start organizing now. I think we are coming up on another 'teachable' moment, with a chances for a Kerry victory looking better and better. It is really important to get Republicans out of Congress as well.

Michael Moore's next movie is going to be about our health care system, and we need to be ready to roll organizationally. Let's revive all the single payer organizations that faded in the mid 90s. Let's also push the issue as a project for after the election for our district-level Dem party organizations, who are going to be faced with the problem of maintaining ongoing interest and involvement when the next election isn't going to happen for another two years. A nice issue project that just about everybody is in favor of (according to the Pew Foundation, 89% of Democrats and 51% of Republicans).

Kerry is going to be faced with the problem that his plan costs a whole buttload of money on top of what we are already spending in a budget environment that is not going to allow for extra spending. We need to be there with the current legislation which does cover everyone for the same or less than we are spending now. That's a powerful force in our favor, but only successful organizing will allow us to circumvent the insurance company noise machine.