A Painfully Honest Queston: What do we do with Islam?

[Selwynn]

Since long before September 11th, I have been a person who has constantly opposed what I considered to be naive Western prejudice against Islamic faith. I continue to feel that it is too easy to equate the religion of Islam with the radical extremists of Islam and thereby mass sweeping generalizations and stereotypes over a religion that one third of the world subscribe to.

But I've come to acknolwedge something else as well: most of the places where we have our greatest examples of violences are places were Islamics are involved. Obviously we are in a battle against Osama Bin Ladin and Al Queda, who utilize their fanatical religious rhetoric to justify their atrocities and encourage others to commit more. Then we have the situation in Chechneya, which is also fuled frequently by Islamic extremists. Then we have the situation in Darfur, also fuled by Lslamic extremists. Then we have the Israeli-Palestiniam situation, which while I am not excusing Israels part in the matter, is still a place where suicide bombers role in the name of Islam. Then there is Suadi Arabia which is funds fanatical isalmic extremists.

The world is litterally being blow to hell by people who claim Islam as their faith. When does the "exeception" (i.e. the 'extremist') become the rule? What does it matter if there are millions of anonymous muslims all over the world who are peace loving and open-minded -- they have no power. If they were to rear their heads in most countries in the middle east, they'd be exectued as an infidel. I've listend for so long to all this talk, and repeated it myself, that says "we have to remember that this is only a small group of extremists and not the main of Islam." Well then, WEHRE IS the main of Islam? Were are the people who should be rising up against this ridiculous crap gone seemingly unchecked? What difference does it make it there are millions of silent people hiding if everywhere you look the extremists are IN POWER.

How are we to avoid what ultimately becomes world war three of the West against Islam? Those comitting the violence all over the world may be "extremists" but they are the people in power all over the world, and if one third of the population of the world really is Islamic, and these extremists are only a tiny fraction of that as so many claim, then what does it say that the rest of Islam does not rise up and displace these extremists from governments, from hiding places, from funding, etc? Maybe these evil fanatics are only a small minority, but what does it matter - every where you look THEY have the power, not the kind, gentle, respectful peace-loving muslism that I personally know and that many of you know.

So what do we do with this mess? How do we avoid total warfare spanning the globe? These fanatical extremists think that life is just and excuse to die - they want to die, and they want to kill as many people as they can along the way. So it seems to me that there are three choices: 1) they eventually destroy us, which is their goal. 2) we annihiliate them, causing www III in the process as millions of muslims feel as though we are attacking their faith and not terrorism alone, and not before we've been hit with nuclear terrorist attacks and other disaster. 3) muslims solve the problem internally by revolution and the displacement of this fanatical extremism that is so pervasive with a more moderate voice.

Which seems most likely? #2 I'm afraid. Does anyone see a brighter future? Does anyone deny that there is a PERVASIVE GLOBAL problem with muslim fanaticism that is causing death and destruction all over the world? When does the "exception" to the rule become the rule? What differece does it make if there are millions of silent muslims who are peaceful and good if they can't/don't do anything to stop the polical domination of their faith by fanatical murderers and tyrants?

Like I said, this isn't a pretty post. But I'm just throwing it all out there...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. its not what we do with islam but what we do with overwhelming poverty

and a bunch of clerics takign advantage of said poverty and despair.

[ret5hd]

3. exactly...

if we had committed $87 billion (and really meant it and really used it) to building water wells where there were none, clinics where there were none, and schools where there were none...

WE WOULDN"T HAVE TO FIGHT ANYBODY.

[Maple]

2. You could just

get out of their countries, and leave them to run their own affairs.

That's all they are asking you to do.

Didn't you expect them to fight back eventually?

[shadu]

5. That would certainly be a start

[cheezus]

4. Right now I'm honestly more concerented with the extremist Christians

because they are right here, and are actively attacking my America every day.

[BlueEyedSon]

7. PLUS... they are better funded and armed with WMDs

[Selwynn]

29. How many family members have been raped murdered and tortured by...

..extremist Christians near you?

[sangh0]

40. Actually, Christian fundamentalists do rape children

many force their underage daughters to marry older men.

[Blue Wally]

89. What???????????

Other than the polygamist offshoot of Mormonism and possibly some farout "snake-handler sect, can you give a real example of this??

[sangh0]

96. You just gave yourself an example

"Mormon polygamists"

And in some other, less developed nations, fundamentalist Christians marry their daughters off at a young age.

[FatSlob]

115. WTF?!

[bloom]

67. Wouldn't it seem like "extremist Christians" at Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo

raping, laughing, taunting, murdering.

Seems like that is what it could look like to them.

Or the "extremist Christians" and their fighter jets dropping bombs and killing civilians, killing journalists, bombing weddings.

It is "extremist Christians" that are threatening Iran. It is "extremist Christians" that have the most massive military in the world that won't tolerate Muslim countries having anything.

From over there - they probably wonder "why aren't the non-extremists doing anything to stop it".

[Cheswick2.0]

83. You are saying the US is a Christian nation? The Dominionists

thank you.

Actually it is not the "christians" doing any of those things, it is all of us, christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, agnostics, Pagans and everyone else.

[bloom]

97. It's the people in charge who pretend to be...

and the impression that Muslims could get from listening to Bush*s State's of the Unions Addresses.

And God Bless America and all of that.

I think the USA could appear to be - as a majority - to the outside world - "extremist Christians".

[Crunchy Frog]

68. None, but none by Muslims either.

That isn't to say that it doesn't happen though.

I do feel that my country and my Constitution are being raped by extremist Christians, which is something extremist Muslims don't have the power to do.

[cheezus]

117. exactly as many as have been by ...

extremeist islamists. zero.
There have also been zero muslims angrilly protesting my University's GLBT group. The have been no muslims telling me, flat out, that I'm going to hell. Muslim extremists aren't pushing bills in our state legislatures to put discrimination into constitutions. They aren't claiming that the country I live in and love is a "muslim" nation. They aren't refusing to prescribe/administer birth control.

I stand by my original statement.

[mike_c]

125. presuming that most of the U.S. soldiers murdering innocent...

...Iraqi civilians, or raping them in Abu Graib are at least nominally Christian rather than Muslim..., well, I'm sure you get the idea.

[tkmorris]

128. Well, you weren't asking me but....

exactly the same number as have been murdered, raped, et al by Islamic fundamentalists near me. That is to say, none.

Now if you want to discuss such events happening elsewhere, you must also realize that where such brutalities occur is almost always in an area where the Islamics live but are being oppressed by those not of their faith. Say what you will about events in Iraq but at the end of the day you must acknowledge that none of it would be happening if we weren't there in the first place. Besides, the "Christians" in Iraq (the imported ones, not the indigenous variety) are committing far more than their share of atrocities. The murder of innocents done under the guise of peacekeeping, from the relative safety and distance that a helicopter gunship provides, remains just as horrible as a killing done up close and personal. In fact, it's worse since those responsible attempt to pretend that their motivations are pure and the collateral damage is unfortunate but necessary.

[Marxdem]

127. we have our checks and balances.

There is also a sizable amount of people looking to put a stop to that. The left is fighting the force of extremism every day here. I can't say that I have heard of a sizable amount in the middle east.

[Radical Activist]

6. Do you really think its your business to "do" anything with it?

Leave them the hell alone. Most of the violence in the world today is perpetuated by Christians and Jews, so what do you propose we do with them?
I hope this outrageous post is deleted.

[sui generis]

8. I second that

all extremism, whether conveniently religious or political is bad news.

[Selwynn]

19. Um.... fuck yes.

Yes, I think it is my business to resist tourture, violence, oppression and tyranny.

Most of the violence in the world today is perpetuated by Christains and Jews - how do you figure that?

[sangh0]

48. I figure you might be insane

Most of the torture, violence, repression and tyranny in the world occurs in the non-religious nations of Asia, Africa, and South America, like China, Russia, etc (all of which have secular govts, and perpetrate violence and oppression to keep power, and not to promote a religious view)

[Selwynn]

71. That's a really good point too. Thanks for that one.

[Radical Activist]

91. How many people have Al-Qaeda killed?

Now ask how many tens of thousands have been killed by US military action in the middle east and around the world. The US has killed more people by far. Israeli tanks and missles have killed more people than palestinian suicide bombers, regardless of who you think is right in that conflict.
The US became a target because we couldn't let the Middle East and its oil alone. What are we going to do about the Christians who can't be happy staying in their own country?

[pnb]

113. Um, the post was about religious extremists...

...and you are talking about a nation. I didn't realize the entire US or US military was Christian.

[Radical Activist]

116. Bush and the Republican party think this

is a Christian nation. This war and nation are laregely lead by people who identify themselves as Christians and Jews. Iraq and Saudi Arabia aren't all Muslim either but we talk about those nations that way.

[Dorian Gray]

121. Well, Iraq may have a bit more diversity than

some of the other nations in the Middle East, but Saudi Arabia is NOT a secular government. Their national religion is Islam, and it is illegal to convert from Islam in SA.

[fudge stripe cookays]

31. I agree.

Most of what we're experiencing right now results from the crappy foreign policy we have.

I was allf ro giving the Jews a homeland, but these Palestinian lands were stolen. People fled from their homes during an especially violent takeover, and were never allowed back. There needs to be a compromise.

We were well on our way to that when clinton was in office, and it's been completely derailed now.

The original post is really inappropriate.

And note to original poster-- they're not Islamics. They're Moslems, for cryin out loud.

Islam= religion
Moslem= follower of that religion

FSC

[serryjw]

9. When does America take the responsibility for creating this mess?

Bin Laden said get the hell out of Saudi Arabia and give Palestine a homeland. IF we invaded Vatican City and set up bases there we would have millions of Catholics doing the same thing.OUR military might is greater than the entire world put together. We are the world's bullies. ALL FOR OIL! Why did we not invade Korea? When bin Laden was fighting Russia with our help they were freedom fighters....now they are terrorists.

[Selwynn]

21. That I think is definately part of it - but I'm not sure what that does to

undo the violence and global terrorism of fanatical islam and the power it weilds all over the world.

[JCMach1]

25. Power???

Last time I checked they owned a few villages in Pakistan and Afghanistan... get real.

They are criminals and outcasts... and should be treated as such.

You only Romanticize them when you give them such creds.

[Selwynn]

27. get real?

I think the death and violence dealt all over the world in the name of fundamentalist extremist islam is "real" enough.

[JCMach1]

30. Don't conflate Chechnya, Iraq, WTC, Saudi Arabia, etc.

They only thing they have in common is their methodology of murder.

That makes them criminals, not a state to wage war against!

[Selwynn]

37. They have something else in commong too...

...actions committed in the name of islamic extremism

[JCMach1]

43. My friend, everything is done in the name of Islam here...

Just go to a Ramadan sale in Dubai and you will understand what I mean.

Islam is different than many western religions-- especially as we understand them in the U.S., because it completely permeates culture. That leads to many of the contradictions that you see.

[Selwynn]

46. That's interesting. That's the first helpful thread I've read so far.

[JCMach1]

52. For example if I wanted to say something as simple

as I wish I could go the annual Marks and Spencers Ramadan Blowout sale in the Deira City Centre... In Arabic, you would say:

In Sha ' Allah I will go...

You can't even get away from Allah on a trip to the mall! Not even in language!

[sangh0]

44. You are wrong about that

The acts committed by Chechens (and Ingushtans, etc) were done in the name of ethnic nationalism. It had very little to do with religion.

[Selwynn]

49. That's helpful too... I wish I could get my hands on hard evidence

for this.

[sangh0]

57. You've got it backwards, Selwynn

If you're going to think that the Chechen conflict is based on religion, you should find some evidence to support that idea. It's irrational to think that something is true merely because you can't disprove it.

The truth is, you don't know what the Chechens are fighting for, so why make the default "Because they're Muslims"?

[Selwynn]

72. Also good... now see my "Devil's Adovcate thread" then this answer:

I want to find a way to share a different perspective with my father.

[sangh0]

99. Good luck with your dad.

FWIW, I don't think he's evel at all. I know many people like that. They're not evil; Just ignorant.

[JCMach1]

56. Yes, but check the originals of their statements...

God is there, trust me...

OF course, there actions have nothing to do with God at all...!

They have everything to do with what you have stated.

[sangh0]

59. I realize that, but I think it's irrelevant

The people who are doing this are religious, and are Muslim, and so of course their words will include religious references. However, that does not mean that their fight is based on any idea or belief that is religious or Islamic. They are fighting because they want independence from Russian oppression. There's nothing religious about that, even though many religious people, including many Muslims, would agree with that.

[JCMach1]

62. Of course you are right, but it also makes it easier for

the Pugs and our fundies to demonize them.

[bicentennial_baby]

80. Don't forget Britain

and to a lesser degree France. The clusterfuck that we call the Middle East today is a direct product of the mandate period following WW1. Lies, deception, and selfishness created those borders, and now the world must deal with the result.

[Blue Wally]

94. A lot more US servicemen died.......

defending South korea than have died in all of our disturbances with the Muslim countries and terrorists. Think 1950-1953.

[Crunchy Frog]

105. And a Hell of alot more died

fighting against good old red blooded white European Christians in WWI and WWII, to say nothing of fellow white Christian Americans in the Civil War.

I think a little historical perspective is in order here.

[Dorian Gray]

122. But,

the difference is that we are in Saudi Arabia at the invitation of their government. We in no way invaded Saudi Arabia and took over military bases.

As for Palestine, we have no military presence in that particular quaqmire. Despite varied opinions in the USA about the situation, we are blamed for supporting the Jews. Also not a reason for Al-Queda to attack us on our soil.

[skygazer]

10. The fact that "we" feel we have to something about it

is part of the problem. Islam itself is not the problem. As other posters have pointed out, poverty and a sense of disenfranchisement has given militants and extremists some very valuable recruiting tools.

"We" have created much of the problem with our insensitive policies in regards to the Middle East and other areas of the world.

[ursacorwin]

13. thank you everyone

for affirming why i love this place so much. the initial post isn't really that extreme, in that it reflects the problem that is common to so many in bush's america. we are the problem, as most here have already commented, and i'm glad most people here can see that.

the intial poster should listen to the wise voices, and realize that his/her attitude is the what needs to change.

[Selwynn]

24. So let me get this straight:

The proper thing for us to do is ignore terrorism, ignore the oppression and persecution of people in the name of islamic fanaticism?

Are we just supposed to say, hey - go ahead and rape and slaughter all over the world, its not our problem?

[coalition_unwilling]

32. Until I see a convincing definition of 'terrorism',

one that isn't embedded in various nefarious political agendas, I'll have to quote Reuters News Service to the effect that "one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter." (BTW: Reuters refuses to use the word 'terrorist' in its reporting, altho if one of its quoted sources uses the word, Reuters does quote them directly.)

[Selwynn]

38. Ok, so you're opinion is that we should say "hey fuck you" to sudan

and other places around the world where atrocity is committed in the name of islam, or any other name.

I remember this ideology back when it was called radical isolationism.

[sangh0]

51. You are putting words in someone's mouth, Selwynn

No one here has said that we should say "Fuck you" to Sudan, or anywhere else. Why don't you try to refute something someone has actually said

[coalition_unwilling]

54. There are plenty of 'atrocities occuring right here in the good 'ole U.S.:

1) Dis-enfranchisement of minority voters
2) Racial profiling by law enforcement
3) Poverty and hunger among children
4) A 'prison-industrial' complex run amok
5) Capital punishment of (probably) innocent victims

After Abu Graib and its assorted iterations, where do we get off lecturing anyone (or intervening anywhere) in the name of human rights?

If you want to indulge in name-calling by referring to this as "radical isolationism," so be it. The fact of the matter is that we are now far more "isolated" than we were even 50 years ago, as any decent European will tell you, as a result of our hypocritical and arrogant foreign interventionist policies.

[Selwynn]

73. So what? Two wrongs don't make a right - we have a responsibility

to ALL of these things.

[coalition_unwilling]

81. No, two wrongs don't make a right, but two wrongs

certainly undermine any moral authority we might claim to lecture others on their behaviors. We talk about the importance of 'democracy' in the third world, but don't practice it in any meaningful sense here at home.

Hence, Gore got 500,000 more votes than Bush but Bush became President??? How dare we lecture others on democratic values when we can't even practice it at home?

[Selwynn]

87. Because its right.

Right is right - and we should stand for what is right at home and abroad not ignore problems.

[Blue Wally]

102. The very same way we did...

when Grover Cleveland got more popular votes than Benjamin Harrison but lost in the electoral college. While we migh dispute the allocation of florida's electoral votes, the electoral college is enshrined in our constitution and is a part of our democratic values.

[Crunchy Frog]

101. I think you're reading an awful lot

into people's responses that just isn't there. Sudan is a genocide problem, not an Islam problem and should be dealt with as such, just as we dealt with the Kosovo problem, which was one in which Christians were attempting genocide against Muslims. It wasn't treated as a "Christian problem".

I think most of people here would say that there should be a system of international intervention to deal with genocide, but that genocide is not the monopoly of any religion or belief system.

It seems as if you keep kind of altering the terms of the debate.

[bicentennial_baby]

103. Sudan is not a religioius conflict

It is an ethnic conflict. Arabs vs Non-Arabs. Not all Arabs are Muslims, and the Western media is hyping the Janjaweed as "Islamic" death squads, which is quite a misnomer, afaik.

[The Magistrate]

107. There Different Elements In That Murderous Exercise, Ma'am

Large portions of the African populace in the south of the Sudan are Christian or Pagan, and this has given a good deal of edge to the thing. In the Darfur region currently under assault, the Africans are indeed Moslems. But this sort of thing has been going on there for more than two decades, and the goverment of the place is resolutely fundamentalist.

[bicentennial_baby]

132. I agree

and I admit I do not possess enough of the history to speak truly authoritatively on the subject. I am annoyed though, by the oversimplification by our media...To them, the Janjaweed are just that, "Islamic", with no regard for other aspects of the conflict, whatever they may be.

[LSdemocrat]

118. Actually in Sudan both sides in Darfur are Muslim

It's an ethnic conflict, not a religious one.

[Julien Sorel]

11. Gee,

The world is litterally being blow to hell by people who claim Islam as their faith.

I have to admit I stopped reading the rest of your slop after this point, because it reveals someone who is shockingly ignorant. The Chechens want the Russians to leave them be, and Russians have killed countless Chechen civilians in bombing raids -- yet you blame the Chechens? And that's an example of Islam "blowing the world to hell?" Al Qaeda has been exploiting many Arab and Muslim grievances against the West, for example, Israel, with the Muslim masses. These grievances are largely legitimate, yet it is the Muslims who are "blowing the world to hell?" Your ignorance and attitude are "blowing the world to hell."

Go educate yourself, then start bigoted threads

[sandnsea]

12. It's not that simple

Sudan. We pit the Christians and Islamists against each other when our goal is to control the oil. You look around the world and you'll find US or European money interests at the root of all these supposed Islamic problems. The only case where it isn't totally true is Israel, where the ME really doesn't want the Jews there. When we stop letting corporations play games with the governments and peoples around the world, we'll stop the majority of the problems.

[stringerbell]

16. i agree with the poster

There a graet number of Islamic dissidents who want to introduce the rule of law and respect for human rights into the Middle East. We should be on their side. Not hiding our collective head in the sand. Thats a neo-realist foreign policy and its what we fought against for decades. Human rights abuses should be called out everywhere they occur and using a uniform standard. Whether we want to accept it or not, Islam does have to square this for themselves. But to argue that somehow we should not be involved at all is unbelievable. So next time I dont want to hear anyone of you complain about Chinese human rights violations. I hate Bush as much as I hate the religious fanatics of all faiths, but there is no lesser of two evils.

[sandnsea]

20. ????

How does this address the underlying problem, that half the time our own corporations pay governments for the security that is engaging in the country's human rights abuses? This is not just "other people's" religious or cultural issues.

[Blue Wally]

104. Sudan?? Oil??

How much oil does the Sudan produce??

[JCMach1]

106. They have UNTOUCHED reserves

still in the ground waiting for PEACE

[sandnsea]

109. Some info

And this is from USAID so it certainly has no liberal slant.

Here's a map. Note most of the oil is in the south, where the Christians are, hmmm. Some of it IS being pumped and I think there are more oil fields that have been recently discovered. Also a pipeline, at least one, kind of like Afghanistan, don't you think? The oil wars, that's all we're fighting, all over the globe.

http://www.usaid.gov/locations/sub-saharan_africa/sudan/map_oil.pdf

General overview

http://www.usaid.gov/locations/sub-saharan_africa/sudan/

[Kazak]

14. The question should be:

What do we do about Fundamentalism?

On edit: Both here and abroad!

[Selwynn]

28. Fine: then let's answer that, and let's start with fundamentalist islam

for the purpose of this discussion

[The Magistrate]

100. It Is True, Mr. Selwyn

The fundamentalist style of religious conviction is the problem. A difficulty with that is that those who adopt this approach to their respective creeds are, by any objective standard, probably closer to the "real" meaning and practice of them than those who adopt more liberal and intellectualized views of the religions in question.

The fundamentalist view arises when it becomes clear to many in a culture or a society that the religiosity current in it cannot cope with some changed condition of the cultural life. In our day, this is generally the result of some impact or other of modern developments in intellectual life or technology. In our own culture, it is principally the intellectual developments of the Enlightenment, and the scientific developments of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, that have framed such a crisis for Christianity. It is no longer possible for anyone to seriously maintain that a Biblical world view fits the facts. Some respond to this by denouncing these developments, and subjecting themselves to a form of auto-hypnosis to close off their minds to these things that threaten the coherence of their beliefs. In any time and place, there will be no lack of things that clearly are less than optimum, and these things are explained as the result of whatever weakening of the religious belief and practice has been induced by the evident failure of that form of religiousity to match the current state of things, and the prescription for curing these ills is boldly stated to be a return to the basics of the religion in question.

Though this form of thought can be found in just about any religion in crisis, the "religions of the book" are particularly vulnerable to it, for these found themselves on Truth revealed directly by an exclusive diety, anchor themselves in history that reveals in its events the acts of that diety, and claim that adherence to the ways demanded by that diety will always result in favor shown by that diety, that will exalt the believer above the unbeliever. Of these religions, Islam is the most vulnerable to the latter stress, for it makes that claim much more explicitly, and had a much more successful, and much more recent, early run of triumph. The early generations of believers were astoundingly successful in temporal terms, creating one of the largest empires ever seen on earth, and that not much more than a millenia ago.

The principal impact of modernity on the Islamic world was colonialism. This was possible, however, only because the West had advanced tremendously beyond the Islamic culture in technology, and in the organization of government. Why that was so is too intricate to engage in any detail here, but the disparity owed a good deal to refusal by Islamic societies to adopt themselves the technical innovations of the West, and the reasons for this can be found in several areas: first, a cultural assumption of superiority; second, a belief the best way had already been revealed in all things; and third, the understanding by rulers that the very pattern of their rule would be threatened by the adoption of improved technologies and methods of organization. Colonialism was thus, in many ways, a self-inflicted wound: nothing the West did in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries prevented the other branches of civilization from modernizing themselves in equal measure, and had they done so, colonialism would have proved impossible.

In discussing this matter politically, many on the left are so committed to anti-colonialist views that they are willing to view as good or promising almost anything that can be viewed as a reaction against colonialism, and display a great unwillingness to denounce anything that can be viewed as anti-colonialist. This seems to me a mistaken attitude: a development that is reactionary and obscurantist does not become washed in the blood of the lamb by virtue of being also anti-colonialist. It seems to me that persons of left and progressive view ought to oppose reactionary obscurantism in all quarters, and grant it no fig leaf of any sort. Certainly when they do not, they leave themselves open to a charge of hypocrisy that tells very heavily among the people at large in the society they are a part of.

[AntiFascist]

130. I agree with this....

If I followed it correctly. Fundamentalist religions of all types seem to be equally dangerous. Judaism and Christianity may reflect more evolved societies, but we also have more advanced weaponry and people who are just as crazy in advancing their world views (PNAC and the religious right movement supporting Bush), and who have a tendency towards Imperialism.

[smirkymonkey]

114. Exactly. If it is acceptable to question fundamentalist

Christianity, then it should be acceptable to question Islamic fundamentalism. I am not religious, and I have a problem with all kinds of fundamentalism, but what I see on this thread is a kind of PC knee-jerk reaction to ANY question of Islamic extremism. It's a very black and white way of looking at the situation.

To skirt the issue by criticizing Western, Judeo-Christian dominance and oppression is intellectually dishonest. I completely agree that the west, and the US/UK in particular have taken advantage of the Muslim countries in the Middle East and have exacerbated the violence there. The situation is multi-faceted however and is not so simple as to claim that if we left them alone, everything would be peaceful and they would be restored to a condition of prosperity and balance.

I am not an expert on the situation in the Middle East, nor am I qualified to explain the many contributing factors involved regarding Islamic extremism. However I think it is just as simplistic to say tha the west is ALL wrong and the Muslim/Arab countries are ALL right as it is to insinuate the reverse. The problem is ANY government based upon ANY twisted fundamentalist religion which keeps the populace oppressed and in a state of desperation.

[Matilda]

15. I'm of like mind with the other posters on this thread ...

the real problem is why the western leaders refuse to address the
genuine grievances of Muslim countries around the world. And the
answer is that we in the west have become rich at their expense,
yet our answer to their most pointed attack, on the Twin Towers, was
to invade yet another Muslim country and try to take it over for our
own benefit.

I just wonder what it's going to take before the majority start
asking the right questions.

[JCMach1]

17. I don't buy the analysis

Most of the problems in the Middle-east have NOTHING to do with Islam and everything to do with several factors:

1. Colonial hangover: Most of the countries in the middle-east are relatively new... most borders were colonial leftovers... hence the headaches of places like Sudan.

2. Interference in Arab affairs/blowback. We missed our chance for a United and Peaceful Arab world when we opposed Nasser and his pan-Arab nationalism.

3. Israel... We have to stop playing this as a political chip and get serious about a peace settlement.

4. The Arab world is modernizing (economically and socially) at light speed. In 15 years time you might not be able to tell Riyadh from Istanbul. In 25 years, it may be more like London. Demographics are not on the side of conservatives or oligarchs. The vast majority of the population in most countries is now UNDER 25.

5. American culture is ascendant in the ME. Why conquer them? They are FAST becoming us.

The Muslims you are talking about are the absolute fanatical fringe... probably much less in percentage than our American FREEPER contingent. The vast majority of the resistance in Iraq are Iraqi nationalists of various stripes. Like flies, the fanatical fringe also has made itself heard.

What can the U.S. do to help:

1. Actually support REAL Democracy... not with GUNS, but with trade, aid (for the POOR coutries), and the hand of friendship.

2. Pressure the Israelis and Palesinians to finish the job. There MUST be a lasting peace.

3. We need to try ENGAGEMENT with states like Syria and Iran. We have used the stick for too long! Open a real dialog and then once you have your foot in the door pressure the move toward democracy.

The VAST majority of Arabs want a real and stable democracy. We need to step up to the plate and show them how it's done-- and I don't mean at the point of a gun.


I am not an expert on the region by any means, but living here, talking and listening to people has taught me more than any policy class I could have taken at Harvard. I see statements like this and I want to scream wake-up and understand what is truly going on over here.

[hiphopnation]

66. Could I ask

where you are living? Thanks for the informative post, BTW. :thumbsup:

[Bandit]

18. A lot of Americans are Muslim

I have not heard any of the "terrorists", especially from Iraq even mention Religion EVER. It is always about land or water or power but virtually Never about Religion. Only Americans are making this a religious issue.

[Selwynn]

33. I'm well aware of that - several of my friends and colleges are muslim

But guess what, just because there are nice kind people of Islamic faith, which there are, doesn't change the fact that if they don't have power or control in their religion, and the religion instead is dominated around the world by fanatical extremists who want to kill the infidel and establish Islamic geo-theocracy, then that's a pretty big problem.

It is really never about religion? That's not the language Bin Ladin uses, whether you believe his sincerity or not. That was not the language used by the Chechen rebels, whether you believe their sincerity or not. That is not the language used in Sudan either. And it is not the language used in the middle east. Acting as like religious beliefs, correction: fanatical extremist religious language has nothing to do with anything is pretty crazy.

[Cheswick2.0]

88. I have never heard them open their mouths without mentioning Allah

[Forkboy]

95. yikes

[cali]

22. I suspect

you're going to take a fair amount of shit tor posing this. Good for you! Having said that let me take issue with some of your assumptions, beginning with Checheneya. The problem there really isn't one of radical Islam. The Russians brutally suppressed a separtist movement. That's the crux of the problem. You note that you believe most Muslims are not speaking out against the terrorists. I don't think we can make that assumption. It's a much repeated meme, but is it the truth?
The Palestinian situation is a huge problem. The injustice of the plight of the Palestinian people inflames sentiment throughout the Islamic world. Until the Palestinians have a viable state, it will continue to do so. I do believe that some of the rage extant is that of people living under corrupt regimes. Saudi Arabia springs immediately to mind. And some of that anger is channeled towards other targets.
I'm not as pessimistic as you about the future. Particularly if Kerry gets elected. I think he recognizes that the Palestinian situation has to be addressed, and will work towards that end. Of course, should bush be re-elected, we are indeed in profound trouble.
I want to applaud you for your post. I think it's courageous to post something that goes against the prevailing sentiment. One thing I do find distressing here at DU is the apologist faction.

[Selwynn]

50. Thank you - this is the second helpful post I've read so far.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. "We" don't do anything with Islam.

Anymore than "we" don't do anything with Hinduism or Christianity or Judaism.

Who appointed all-wise, all-knowing, America, to run the world? To be the world's daddy?

For most of the 20th century we "protected" the world from "Communism", which, in reality, was "protecting" oppressive governments from any form of dissent. The result was millions of dead and a world that views us (rightfully) as a nation of greedy and rapacious empire builders.

The problem isn't "Islam" any more than it was Communism. The problem(s) are injustice, inequality, poverty, and the inability of the 3rd world to progress due to our vision of it as a source of raw material and cheap labor.

[Selwynn]

26. One of the biggest centers of injustice, inequality and tyranny is:

in the funadmentalist driven, extremist controlled Islam. Injustice done in the name of Islam, inequality in the name of islam, tyranny in the name of islam.

And what I'm gathering from most of you is that in your opinion, we don't do anything about it: we just let people die and slip into oppression. Let more and more of the world come into extremist theocracy. Let more and more woman of the world be stonned for marrying the wrong person, and let more and more murder be committed in the name of religious righteousness. Just ignore it.

Is that right?

[JCMach1]

34. In fundamentalist driven, extremist controlled America. Injustice

is done everyday in the name of Freedom and democracy, inequality is maintained in the name of freedom and democracy, and America (read Bush) spreads its tyranny across the globe at the point of a gun.

[stringerbell]

47. look

I hate the fundies here. Period. But that does not mean you get to excuse fundamentalist Islam. Yes American exploitation has been an enormous problem, but what twisted form of logic says that it naturally follows that what took root in its place is excusable? When Assad levelled an entire town of 30 thousand people in the early eighties, was it ok becuase Reagan was such a prick?

[JCMach1]

60. You don't excuse it at all... Honestly though, the fundies

I meet here are much closer to being the rough equivalent of Mormons as opposed to the cousins of Osama bin Laden.

I draw a very big distinction between practicing Wahabiists and gun-toting terrorists.

The differences are not doctrinal, but ideological... the same thing that separates the 7th day Adventists from the David Kosesh's of the world.

[Selwynn]

53. You're right. But basicall your response is:

Well, we suck too.

And that's not really a sufficient answer to what we should do, or what needs to be done, or how is the problem of islamic extremism gotten under control.

The fact that we need to be brought under control and that other groups also need to be brought under control doesn't change the merit of the original question.

[Cleita]

36. I think you have sect confused with the religion of Islam as a whole.

I am more concerned that religions follow the law. Most of them do. Of course, if you let them start infiltrating the government like they have ours, then you have a problem. Islam is no different.

I think we have a duty to clean up our own Christian houses before we start tidying up others.

[Selwynn]

42. No - my point is that I don't think it makes a DIFFERENCE

It doesn't matter if it is a small sect with a lot of control in many places of the world, or if it is a majority of a religion ith a lot of control in many places of the world.

What is the differnce, the effect is exactly the same?

I think we have an obligation to stand against violence and injustice no matter whos house it belongs to. However, I think its also ridiculous to try to ratioanlize away the fact that bulk of the conflicts going on in the world RIGHT NOW are between some group and muslim fundamentalists. That's a real problem.

[sangh0]

63. Your premise is wrong

What is the differnce, (if) the effect is exactly the same?

The effect isn't exactly the same. There's a big difference between a religion where a small minority hold extremist beliefs, and one where the majority holds extremist beliefs.


I think its also ridiculous to try to ratioanlize away the fact that bulk of the conflicts going on in the world RIGHT NOW are between some group and muslim fundamentalists.

I think it ridiculous to think that the bulk of todays conflicts involve Islam. China, Russia, South and Central America, etc are where the bulk of conflicts is going on. With the exception of Iraq and Pakistan, the majority of Islamic nations are pretty stable

[Blue Wally]

108. Ummmmmmmm

I think it ridiculous to think that the bulk of todays conflicts involve Islam. China, Russia, South and Central America, etc are where the bulk of conflicts is going on. With the exception of Iraq and Pakistan, the majority of Islamic nations are pretty stable

Phillipines-Muslim minority conducting terror in southern islands

Malaysia-Muslim Malay majority persecuting minority Chinese

Indonesia-Muslim majority conducting ethnic cleansing against Chinese minority and against Buddhist and Christian minorities in the eastern end of the archipelago.

India-Muslim separatist movement conducting terror war for control of Kashmir.

Russia-Chechenia

Israel-Palestine conflict

Muslim opppression of Christian Lebanese.

[sangh0]

123. "Ummm" yourself

Philipines - most of the violence in the Philipines is the result of US colonization of the Phillipines in the early 20th century. The Islamic-inspired violence there is a relatively recent phenomena, and is nowhere near as large as what was perpetrated by Filipino Christians, with the help of Americans

Indonesia and Malaysia - Though political Islamism has had an influence there, the conflict there is mainly ethnic (ie. indiginous poor against a Chinese commercial elite). See Amy Chua's 'World on Fire" for more on this

Russia - The Chechen conflict is not based on religion. It's based on the ethnic nationalism of the Chechens.

And you ignored ALL of the conflicts where Islam plays no role. That discredited tactic is known as "Framing the debate".

I don't play like that. I prefer honest debate

[H2O Man]

129. I'm trying to think:

Is it really Muslims that have been oppressing my relatives in Ireland? Gosh, and here we thought it was other Christians! No wonder we've had such "troubles"!

The conflict in Ireland is a prime example of a conflict over the economy being "framed" as a religious war, when it's not. It's a conflict over the land that provides the means of control over a large part of the economy.

[bpilgrim]

39. many make the same claim about us...

what r they gonna do about us :shrug:



peace

[coalition_unwilling]

41. The first thing to do is, as Nader says,

is to withdraw U.S. military and corporate forces from Iraq.

[Selwynn]

45. I agree, but to others here realy believe that if we....

..pack up our toys and go home that suddenly, islamic extremist all over the world will go, "oh, well in that case we'll all go home and live in peace?"

[skygazer]

70. Then what do YOU propose?

See post #58. You ask our opinions but then dismiss them as wrong and stupid. Yet you have offered NOTHING in the way of any solution. If all our ideas are wrong, then what do you feel is right? Please enlighten us - I for one am waiting with bated breath. What's the solution? What do "we" do about Islam?

[Selwynn]

93. I'm asking you - I don't have a solution.

Just because I don't have a solution doesn't mean I don't rightfully recgonize problems in your solutions.

Maybe ther is no solution other than total war. Not something I want, but perhaps that is the way things are going. Fundamentalist islamic extremism is now so pervasive and poweruful that there may be no solution other than full war to take em out.

(NOTE - I've been trying to be very believable in all of this, but if you haven't seen my other thread or post below yet, I can't say this without qualifying and confessing that I don't actually belive this. I don't have a reason for arguing this position however.)

[anarchy1999]

131. Selwynn, I've watched this thread since early today. I'm sad you

posted this and I thought I knew you a little better. Great Flame you have going on.

There are extremists on all sides distorting the message. I think Carlin said it best on Friday night with Bill M on HBO about religions destructive affect upon all of us over many hundreds of years.

It is not just Islam.

Sad post, Selwynn.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

61. What do "we" do?

We support groups in those nations (Islamic, Christian, whatever) that wish to instill progressive change. "We" being indivduals, not our government of the gun. Rather, "we" as individuals, support our government when it supports human rights being violated by whatever form of tyranny. Whether it be religious, political, or corporate.

Nobody is talking about ignoring violations of human rights. But, Islam is no more monolithic than Christianity is. The average Muslim around the world is a helluva lot more concerned with making a living and giving his kids an education than he is about stirring up religious wars.

Trying to make this a religious war is just exactly what Osama and his ilk would like more than anything.

[Crunchy Frog]

110. Well, why don't you tell us what the solution is then. eom

[bpilgrim]

35. CRUSADE!

a Childrens CRUSADE?

http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/childrens_crusade/

peace

[bpilgrim]

135. slaughterhouse five

The Children’s Crusade

The subtitle of Slaughterhouse-Five is “The Children’s Crusade.” In his introductory chapter, Vonnegut explains that he was reminded by the wife of an old war buddy that “You were just babies in the war--like the ones upstairs!” She goes on to accuse him of wanting to write a book that ignores this fact. She tells him, “You’ll be played in the movies by Frank Sinatra and John Wayne or some of those other glamorous, war-loving, dirty old men. And war will look just wonderful, so we’ll have a lot more of them. And they’ll be fought by babies like the babies upstairs.”

Vonnegut responded by promising to call the book “The Children’s Crusade.”

more...
http://www.nimblespirit.com/html/unstuck.htm

peace

[JI7]

55. why the fuck do "we" need to do something with Islam ?

"we" should just help protect separation of church and state to help avoid dangers of all religious fundamentalism.

[skygazer]

58. I've got an idea

You don't like our answers and feel we all want to just turn a blind eye to the "death, destruction and chaos" or whatever, which incidentally is not what any of us said.

How about you tell us what YOU think "we" should do about Islam since obviously we're all a bunch of bleeding heart liberals who are sadly out of touch with reality.

Quit bashing us for our opinions (which you asked for) and tell us what you think. Or are you just trying to start trouble?

[erniesam]

64. Let's fix christianity first.

Take a look at this:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=281247&contrassID=1

and this:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/484861.html

We have our own religous extremists to deal with. Don't you think?

[Crunchy Frog]

65. I don't think it's our place to

"do something about" Islam. In case you havn't noticed, we have quite a number of whacked out religious and ideological radicals in our own society that threaten us a great deal more than radical Islam does.

It seems to me that whenever we try to "solve" something like radical Islam, we only end up making it worse.

We also have to understand that people don't become radicalized in a vacuum. Chechnya is a case in point. At the time of the breakup of the Soviet Union, it had aspirations for independence that went back hundreds of years to the time when it was originally conquerred by Russia, but it was not dominated by radica Islam. Russia went in and basically pulverized the place, and this has produced a radicalized population given more and more to extremism, and has also brought in outside extremist sympathisers,or opportunists. The more that Moscow cracks down violently, the more extremist that population is going to be.

We are doing the same thing in Iraq. Iraq has not in the past been a hotbed of Islamic extremism, but is becoming so more and more in response to our gentle ministrations.

The biggest things that we have to do to undermine Islamic extremism are firstly to understand that we can't re-engineer people and societies to our specifications and along lines that are convenient to us, and that when we try, we make the situation worse.

Secondly, we need to reassure the Islamic world that we are not in some sort of Holy war against them, and that we do not have aspirations on their natural resources.

Thirdly, we must appear to be more even handed in our dealings with Israel and Palestine, despite how unreasonable both sides frequently are. If we can't work effectively with people there, it might actually be a good idea to disengage from that conflict and let the principals figure it out for themselves. I am not advocating leaving Israel to the wolves, it has clearly demonstrated that it is well able to take care of itself, just maybe without so many of our tax dollars.

Fourthly, we need to seriously engage the more moderate forces in the Islamic world and help them to begin isolating the extremists. This will be difficult at present because right now, anyone who engages with us is immediately suspect. We must also not use this as another attempt at domination but rather as simple engagement.

Fifthly, we need to clean up our own act and deal with our own fundy nut jobs, many of whom are very interested in keeping the Islamic extremists stoked up. Many of these people have terrorist tendencies themselves anyway. If they solidify their control in this country, all bets are off and we can look forward to decades of holy war.

[JCMach1]

69. I also take to heart Barber's Thesis in 'Jihad vs. McWorld'

Islamic extremist terror (as I think you are describing) is in actuality the 'evil' shadow of international global corporatism. They operate and thrive in the same atmosphere.

I strongly suggest a read of his book to anyone stuck on this thread if you haven't read it already.

[Selwynn]

75. Is that the title of the book? Any other book recommendations??

I'll get that.

[JCMach1]

79. That's the title... a bit dense, but a good read

BTW: it was also written prior to 9/11.

It is the forces that Barber describes that are at war. Countries, religions, these are largely windowdressing for a larger ideological war that is going on.

[bicentennial_baby]

76. I agree

That book is incredibly good. We read it in Int'l Politics last semester.

[bicentennial_baby]

74. I think you really need to educate yourself re: Islam

The vast majority of Westerners have little or no understanding of Islam and it's history. Islam is not the source of terrorism carried out by Muslims, and terrorism is a symptom of complex social issues that have evolved primarily in the Middle East since the fall of the Ottoman empire.

Terrorism is not solely the domain of Muslims. You should read "Terror in the Name of God: The Rise of Global Religious Violence"... Xtians and Jews have done more than their fair share of terroristic acts in recent years.

The term "Islamic terrorism" is bullshit, at least until we start calling Xtian and Jewish terrorists just that, as well as Sikhs and Hindus who do the same in the name of their religious ideologies.

The segment of the global Islamic comunity that ascribes to this ideology which you seem to fear overtaking the world so much is maybe 5% of the over 1 billlion Muslims on the planet.

DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE!

[leesa]

77. ??? What do we do with Islam? What kind of question is that?

You do nothing with it. Are you as worried about the nutcase Fundie christians?

[Selwynn]

78. PLEASE SEE THIS THREAD NOW:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2448513

If you would be so kind as to post any resources, books, materials, talking points or any other ideas that you think would help me in my efforts I would greatly appreciate that.

Thanks for being part of my little scheme - I'll probably keep playing devils advocate on this thread for a while.

Sel

[JCMach1]

85. Nice to know Selwynn hasn't gone over to the DARK SIDE

You are absolutely right about how some people view this problem.

Even OUR side uses these ideas to effect: remember the Saudis from F 9/11?

I certainly remember a muslim hung in effigy outside a local bar in FL right after 9/11.

[Selwynn]

86. Yeah - funny how this thread is still flying and the other one is dead :)

people just like to fight I think :D

[bloom]

90. Well - you know

we have a duty to discourage such outrageous notions on "our" board.

[Selwynn]

98. I'd be nice if we also felt the same duty

to proactively discuss, solidify and dialogue about how to understand and express our right points of view, not just argue against wrong ones.

There is a reason I chose to post like this - becuase I ***KNEW** I wouldn't only get about ten responses other wise. But ohhh boy, throw something out that is imflammatory, and BAM - almost 100 posts in an hour.

And I know I can argue, so I figured, what the hell.

I'm just suprised so many people didn't see through my guise, knowing what they know about me and what I believe... :D

[JCMach1]

92. No shite...

:)

Just don't mention Nader...

DUCKING

[Bridget Burke]

82. Why haven't YOU "risen up" to remove our own extremists from power?

The US government is killing Iraqis & Afghanis as you write. Why have you not prevented it? Why have you not solved this problem?

There is no central, organized, global Islamic fundamentalist movement. There are several--just as there have always been. Remember what happened to "Chinese" Gordan in Khartoum? There are also numerous groups of Islamic mystics--mostly quite peaceful. Then there's the majority--people trying to make a living & raise their families--who happen to be Muslim. (Muslim or Moslem--capitalized; "Islamic" is not a noun.)

Back during the Cold War, Marxist revolutionaries got many "recruits" from people who may not have cared that much about Karl Marx. But the Reds were fighting imperialist forces that needed opposing. So our government gave more support to rightist generals & dictators--because they were anti-Marxist. Our government was less interested in "freedom" than the interests of (mostly American) corporations.

Now, as we occupy and/or bomb mostly Muslim countries, the extremists gain new recruits. Recruits who would have been much happier going to work & going home to their families at the end of the day. The military/industrial complex is really happy that there's a new Menace. If we truly want Peace, we need to work for it.

What are you going to do? Take the cross?

[Cat Atomic]

84. What do we DO about Islam?

The middle east is the most strategically important region on the face of the planet. It's been divided amongst various external powers, who set up oppressive regimes and maintain poverty throughout the region so they can continue to exploit it.

It also happens to be the home of Islam, and people use religion as a call to arms. We've got the same thing going on here as well, in case you hadn't noticed. How many fundamentalists think the Iraq invasion is a religious crusade?

Honestly, I find your "what do we do with it" question to be disturbing and arrogant.

[noonwitch]

111. We encourage moderates within the religion/help spread sufism

The media only show us the faces of the radicals. There are many peaceful muslims out there, many of them in this country. In Dearborn, for example, where the arab neighborhood is rather cool to drive through. There are lots of successful businessmen in the area, who likely feel like any other successful immigrants-they love this country, which has been good to them.

The food smells along Warren AVE are strong and good, the older buildings have been fixed up and there are lots of new buildings-restaurants, bakeries, stores, salons, that have an arab-style architecture to them. There are things about Islam that I have a problem with, especially the treatment of women, but in this country, we have laws that protect women. It wasn't so long ago that christians had the same attitude about women. Islam is in the process of emerging from their reformation (bin Laden/the Taliban= Cromwell and the Puritans) period and it will hopefully be followed by a period of enlightenment, like the protestant reformation in christianity.

Maybe we should support the spread of sufism? It is the mystical branch of Islam, with lots of contemplation and no support for violence.

[kayell]

112. A Painfully Honest Queston: What do we do with Christianity?

Since long before September 11th, I have been a person who has constantly opposed what I considered to be naive DU prejudice against Christian faith. I continue to feel that it is too easy to equate the religion of Christianity with the radical extremists of Christianity and thereby mass sweeping generalizations and stereotypes over a religion that one third of the world subscribe to.

But I've come to acknolwedge something else as well: most of the places where we have our greatest examples of violences are places were Christians are involved. Obviously we are in a battle against Clayton Waagner and The Army of God, who utilize their fanatical religious rhetoric to justify their atrocities and encourage others to commit more. Then we have the situation in Baghdad, which is also fuled frequently by Christian extremists. Then we have the situation in Oklahoma City, also fuled by Christian extremists. Then we have the Israeli-Palestiniam situation, which while I am not excusing Palestinians part in the matter, is still a place where shootings of children role in the name of Zionism. ......

I think you get the picture.

[Selwynn]

119. Hehehe no kidding - I'm suprised that wasn't a subject line sooner :)

[sr_pacifica]

120. The problem is fundamentalism, whether christian, islamic

or any other belief. Black and white thinking. Rigidity and mistrust in the intellect.

[Taxloss]

124. A three-point plan:

1. Get our troops the hell out of their countries.
2. Start dismantling the oil-based economy that distorts their regional economy and politics.
3. Stop tolerating extremist Saudi Wahhabbism and Pakistani nuke proliferation. That means, chiefly, no more arms sales.

Will that ever happen? No. So we're heading towards the centre of the maelstrom.

[Mr.Green93]

126. submit?

[BushHeckler]

133. It's not "What Do We Do About Islam"...

It's "what do we do about megalomanical, rich men who are willing to go to great lengths to force their beliefs on others"? Because, ultimately, that's all it is.

What about cutting off their funding and seizing their assets? How possible/effective would this be?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

134. According to an article I read somewhere recently

(sorry, can't remember where), Islamic leaders all over the world have condemned the radicals, but since there is no central authority in Islam, they have no authority outside their own countries and do not get publicized in the West.

By the way, I'm pretty sure that I heard of American Islamic leaders condemning terrorism.