Devil's Advocate: Doing Opposition Prep in my previous thread

[Selwynn]

Good morning,

About an hour ago, I posted the following thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2448192&mesg_id=2448192

I chose not to phrase it as a hypothetical, or qualify the comments at all. I wanted to argue from the position that my father holds, but I didn't wnat you to know that it wasn't my personal position. I wanted both to see what the responses from the community would be and also I wanted to see if I could make a strong argument, to help me understand the position.

Here is what I personally, actually believe in short:

• The biggest source of problems is the world today is US policy, any analysis of how to make things better needs to start at home
  
• The second biggest problem is fundamentalism and fanaticism in ALL forums: fanatical capitalists, fanatical Christan's, fanatical Jews - basically anything other than fanatical peaceniks is a problem.
  
• Injustice and violence must be opposed wherever they are. The problems are not limited to Islamic extremism and they are certainly not rightfully labeled as problems with "Islam" on the whole or as a whole religion.
  
• There are bad people doing bad things and they use Islamic religious rhetoric while doing it, but only in the west, and western prejudices and western media is "Islam" so misunderstood and so lumped into one stereotypical categories. In other words, one of the biggest problems is the amount of total ignorance in the west in understanding eastern/mid eastern culture, context, religion, perspective, etc.
  
• There is a tendency to lump many different problems in to one large catch all - "Islam" and that is dangerous and wrong no matter how many different kinds of ways one tires to qualify or rationalize that.
  
• I don't have solutions about how to resist, transform and/or overcome violence done in the name of Islam (or violence done in the name of anything else) but that doesn't mean that I am willing to personally accept the prejudicial and ignorant view that there is a global Islamic conspiracy among fanatics to take over the world. There certainly IS extremism, and there ARE people who want to take over the world in the name of religion or otherwise, but to translate than into demonization of an entire religion or entire group of people is a colossal mistake.
  

My father, believes a lot of the things I argued in my other thread. I don't think he understands the nuances, and I don't think he appreciates how much our own media misshapes our perspectives on the world. I think he easily makes hasty generalizations, and every time he sees another atrocity that involves "Muslim" people he comes to believe that there is this global war by unified Islamic extremists to take over the whole world. I think my dad literally believes its us or them, meaning I believe he really feels that "they" want to eliminate us and will never stop and the only want things will end is if only one of us is left standing.

Now, you don't know my Dad -- I know that sounds freaking horrible. That's why it pains me so much, because my Dad is such a great guy. If you met him, he would be one of the nicest, least aggressive guys you've ever met. But when it comes to stuff like this, it seems like mostly ignorance and bias sets in. Too much fox news, too much life spent listening to Pat Buchanan, McLaughlin, O'reilly, and every other conservative pundit. Too long being brainwashed to think certain ways.

My dad is in a place where he actually LIVES far better than his rhetoric, and he does yet fully appreciate the DISCONNECT between what he does in practice, what he speaks to others, and what he claims he believes. He lives and acts so much better than his conservative background. I just want him to come to the place where he can open his eyes and realize that he doesn't live or believe in practice any of the dogmas he's long held.

Anyway, thanks for unwittingly participating in my opposition prep. I enjoy arguing the other side of issues. Unfortunately, so many responses were just assholish, but I didn't expect much less. Thankfully, some of you were willing to really discuss, even though you were appalled with my "position." A couple of you really had helpful things to say which I hope to share with my father sometime if there is ever an opening.

I wish more of us would be more willing to thoughtfully discuss things with people we don't agree with, because its often so valuable.

Thanks,
Sel

[Selwynn]

1. Any helpful books, resources, links, talking points, or thoughts WELCOME!

Anything that will help me reach my dad on this issue, and better educate myself as well...

[JCMach1]

2. 'Jihad vs. McWorld'

Benjamin Barber


As soon as you hear the conceit of this book--that there are two great opposing forces at work in the world today, border-crossing capitalism and splintering factionalism, and that they are the two biggest threats to democracy--you know it rings true enough to be worth reading. Although capitalism could have only grown to current levels in the soil of democracies, Benjamin Barber argues that global capitalism now tends to work against the very concept of citizenship, of people thinking for themselves and with their neighbors. Too often now, how we think is the product of a transnational corporation (increasingly, a media corporation) with headquarters elsewhere. And although self-determination is one of the most fundamental of democratic principles, unchecked it has lead to a tribalism (think Bosnia, think Rwanda) in which virtually no one besides the local power elite gets a fair shake. The antidote, Barber concludes, is to work everywhere to resuscitate the non-governmental, non-business spaces in life--he calls them "civic spaces" (such as the village green, voluntary associations of every sort, churches, community schools)--where true citizenship thrives... http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:McGFVjYihBQJ:www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345383044%3Fv%3Dglance+jihad+vs.+mcworld+review&hl=en

[Selwynn]

3. Yeah this really piqued my interest - I'm definately going to get

[bicentennial_baby]

4. Here's some:

Jihad vs McWorld, by Benjamin Barber

Global Islamic Politics, by Mir Zohair Hussein (a textbook, but great for learning about Islamic history and political thought)

The Trouble with Islam, by Irshad Manji

Terror in the Mind of God: The Global Rise of Religious Violence, by Mark Juergensmeyer

Terror in the Name of God: Why Religious Militants Kill, by Jessica Stern


Those are off the top of my head...if I thnk of more I'll let ya know.

[hiphopnation]

5. Not sure what it is you're trying to "discuss" here...

but I read this and your last thread. It seems to me that you got a good many answers to some of your queries and at least a good many suggestions for reading material that would help you (and your father) to perhaps understand Islam in a global context a little better. Even a few good world history books or courses would your bring understanding of modern-day Islam and some of the guerrilla wars that are currently being fought in the ME into a better perspective.

Point being that the question you posed in your previous thread took on a lot of assumptions that most here at DU are not willing to "get on board with" perhaps the most glaring of which would be that "we" (Americans? Democrats? Liberals? Christians? Who?) have to "do" something about Islam. It's a loaded question in so many ways.

What struck me about your original post, however, was that you criticize the rubric through which the U.S. (not just our media but a lot of our defense strategists, the military and the CORPORATIONS that provide them with their very expensive weaponry) views "Islamic Fundamentalism" while using the very same rubric in the posing of your question. It's as though some of your very own wisdom and logic is lost on yourself.

I see the answers that your are digging for and this is a good way to get at some of them; to air your thoughts publicly. I offer very little in the way of substantive solutions for the problems that fundamentalism, writ large, pose because it's a confounding problem. Perhaps most worrisome is that it appears to spreading, fundamentalist, that is. I will defer to some of the other posters as many of them have a much greater grasp on the specific issue of the ME. I just wanted to point out a few things in your approach. Good luck! :thumbsup:

[Selwynn]

6. I don't think you understand:

My original thread is the opposite of everything I actually think.

I presented it that way, because I wanted to illicit real and passionate arguments, so I could sift through them and find some very good and valid points I can use with my father. I'm not sure how you could miss that if you actually read this thread, but maybe I'm not being clear.

The bullet points in this thread are what I actually believe. And if anyone has any other ideas of who to delicately approach this subject with my father, that would be really great.

I'm afraid it will be very hard to broach this subject with Dad, but if I have a really clear understanding of how to approach it, I think I can.

[hiphopnation]

7. I see now.

Interesting experiment. Sorry. I'm at work and having to "alt+tab" a lot. Nice going and good luck with your Dad.

[skygazer]

8. Quite the "gotcha" there, Selwynn!

You played it pretty well, too. Managed to get me to the point where i end up with the moran freeptards when I come back with, "okay, so what's YOUR answer?" which of course is what I wound up posting.

Good luck with your dad - he sounds like mine.

peace

[sandnsea]

9. Playing on emotion

Was it you who posted a link to something on phobias the other day? I meant to do more research on phobias, and try to relate it to the political situation today, got sidetracked. Everybody has engrained beliefs, they can easily become phobic-like. The older generation, particularly, has an engrained WWII belief that the US is always good and right. Like health care, the very idea that you can't get as good health care in Canada as the US is ridiculous. But we're fed this idea of American superiority from birth. There is a special goodness to America, but I think it's been our humility and humanity, not the superiority complex that's showing it's ugly head today. So I think sometimes it all gets meshed together, good things happen to good Christians, America has goodness because of its Christian morality, a certain WASPish racism mixed in, with such wealth and comfort that it's hard to ask people if we really are on the right track. I think people like your dad sort of have to take the Muslim vs. Western world attitude, otherwise their entire belief system would come crumbling down around them. Like looking at the behavior of bullying high school students when trying to understand school shootings. Nice kids from good homes tease somebody a litle bit and get shot? Bah, kids have always been teased. Bet that's what your dad thinks about that as well. Without understanding how much times have changed and how much meaner people are today and how much violence is pushed as a justifiable means to solving problems and how it all goes together.

I don't know Selwynn, my dad says some wacky things too sometimes. I just ignore it mostly and interject a sentence or two when something is on the news that backs my point of view. But then again, he's not a Bushie so it makes it a little easier!

[Selwynn]

11. You know its interesting... phobia might almost be the right way...

..to think about it. My dad has come a long, long way out of fundamentalist Christianity, but that's where he (we, all of us) came from.

I think that there are remnants of that brainwashing that still create irrational feelings and interpretations of events, even when people like my dad have moved beyond all of that to something so much better in so many ways...

I feel like that's what I'm dealing with a lot of times with my awesome parents - people who have come so far, but are still trapped by remnants.

Its just another case study in how totally, utterly damaging that kind of indoctrination is. I understand why so many people have a strong negative reaction to religion on the whole on these boards. I myself have not abandoned all spiritual faith, but I may very well be the exception to the rule of people who can undo traditional dogma and reconstitute it into something personally joyful, empowering and healthy... (not that I'm trying to sound all grandiose or something..)

[Mandate My Ass]

10. OMG, so that's it

I thought you had either come unglued or some interloper logged in using your username and password.

[Selwynn]

12. Here are some of my talking points, based on all of your help:

Talking points:

• There is a difference between religious conflict and ethnic conflict. The conflict in Sudan is an ethnic conflict between Arabs and non-Arabs. Not all Arabs are “Muslims.” And in this case, the conflict is between two different ethnic groups who are both predominantly Muslim in religion.
  
• The acts committed by Chechens (and Ingushtans, etc) were done in the name of ethnic nationalism. It had very little to do with religion. This is another example of an ethnic and nationalistic conflict more than a religious conflict. In the West we deflated these (religious conflict and ethnic conflict) into the same thing when they are not.
  
• Most of the torture, violence, repression and tyranny in the world occurs in the non-religious nations of Asia, Africa, and South America, like China, Russia, etc (all of which have secular govts, and perpetrate violence and oppression to keep power, and not to promote a religious view)
  
• Islam is different than many western religions-- especially as we understand them in the U.S., because it completely permeates culture. That leads to many of the contradictions that you see. In other words, people get up in the morning and go to the bathroom, and they do it in the name of Allah – meaning that religion permeates everything which is not the same thing as saying there is a global movement to take over the world and covert it to Islam.
  
• Much of the demonization of Islam comes from Christians who say all kinds of things about the religion or the Koran that either is totally false or is open to interpretation. For example most Christians don’t know and would be shocked to discover that the Koran talks about peace and living peacefully with others in the world fifteen times as often as it has scriptures that are interpreted to mean violence against non-believers. You could go to our own Bible and find a handful of scriptures which, taken alone sound like they advocate some really horrible behavior. But of course we don’t “interpret it that way.”
  

What should I add?

[sandnsea]

15. Oil & Corporatism

I honestly believe if you don't factor that in, you've missed it entirely. That's just me, just my 2.

[ibegurpard]

13. You know something?

The only thing that people have to go on when deciding whether to view someone on the internet as credible or not is what they say.
You little "experiment", by your own admission, shows you as someone who is willing to say things that you don't believe specifically for the purpose of eliciting a desired reaction. Regardless of your motives, can you please explain to me why anyone should view you in the future as anything other than a provacateur?

[Selwynn]

14. Because I believe enough people know me better than you do

..and thereby give me some discretionary room, and I appreciate their real responses. It's also heathly to be able to argue from the opposite point of view, it makes my own view stronger, which is what I'm doing here.

If you don't believe you can or don't want to view me in the future as anything other than a provacateur, that is your choice, and I'll live with it.